Piano World Home Page Forums Our Most Popular Forums Pianist Corner Octaves should *always* be done with 1-5

Is there a consensus around octaves being done with only 1-5? It was mentioned in some other thread. I was taught to use 1-4 on black keys as I'm sure many were. I'm looking for more opinions on this. I will post a couple passages of a piece I'm working on and I've noticed it's not too hard to change the printed fingering so that I only use 1-5...But I'm not sure it's worth my time to change the fingering I'm already using.



Is this different because there is a middle note? Here is another example:

I didn't read the other thread, but my reaction is that the consensus absolutely should be that octaves are NOT done only with 1-5 in all cases. In the particular examples you cite, from the Chopin Ballade #3, for example, I believe you want to attain a smoothness of gesture and a singing line, both of which will be seriously compromised if everything is 1-5. The one piece that come to mind is Chopin's Octave Etude from Op 25 -- I'm willing to bet that nobody recommends 1-5 across the board: they couldn't possibly get through the piece.

I think it's probably the way it is because of your need to maintain the melodic line. But I am not capable of playing the piece you're posting, so let's just take my opinion for whatever it appears to be worth to you!

For me, I don't always play them 1-5. I think if I had smaller hands, I might be forced to (as it turns out, I apparently have very large hands for a woman of my size, with a spread that seems to surprise my teacher, but fortunately for my non-piano playing life they don't appear that way until I'm at the keyboard), but I might alternate 4/5/4/5 if I'm walking down an octave line that requires melodic continuity.

Here's an example in a piece I'm working on:



Obviously, if I'm at fortissimo and am shooting them out like cannons (not often at my level, let's just say) I'd probably stay at 1-5.

There's a very simple answer: NO.

Many people do advocate the 1-5 thing, and to some extent this goes in cycles, with one way or another being said by many to be the real best way, and with that one 'best way' changing. But no, there's absolutely no consensus, and I think it's safe to say that even those who adhere to some such dictum make exceptions.

One need only ask Octavian that question:

www.youtube.com/watch?v=pbq-laOlYbc

Yep, what I find real interesting in this is the very first note. The score advocates a grace note octave landing on a 15 octave. I advocate for the 15 method, but I'm pretty sure I'd play the grace note 15, and the landing 14. (Probably would depend on my mood, though.. lol)

As a side note, there really aren't any pure "octaves" in those passages, and that can change the game considerably. For instance: the jump from C-Ab-C to Ab-F-Ab. Playing an octave C to Ab to C isn't that hard to do 15. But making that leap with an "inside" F is much more difficult, so that might be one place where the fingering changes. (I'd have to put it under my fingers to be sure, but I recognized the potential difficulty there by sight.)

@TwoSnowflakes
It's simply a practical reason to play 1-4,1-5.
Most of the time with 1-4 you have the finger 5 already above the next key without moving the hand, so the execution is faster and it's easier to remember by muscle memory.
In addition, changing the finger allow you to get legato if it's necessary.

I have never had the slightest tension problem or discomfort from sometimes using 1-4 on black keys.

I even do some 1-3.

The closer to middle C I get, the more likely I'll use 1-5. Otherwise, I use 1-4 and even 1-3 at times.

The two examples (Chopin's 3rd Ballade, and Rachmaninoff's C# minor prelude) are slow enough that 1-4 isn't really that much of a bad idea. If we're discussing the Dante sonata...then possibly 1-4 should be avoided in some spots due to the volume, speed and length of the octave passages.

Yes, as Mark C says: NO.

No.

Thanks for the responses. It's a strange question but this has been helpful for me. I found a lot of the fingerings in this edition to be a bit odd but in the end I have used a lot of them. I have even used a 3 on some octaves which I hadn't really thought to do before. Not the one referenced in that first image, I do that first measure as (1-5),1-4,1-5,1-3-5,1-3-5,1-2-4,1-3-5,1-3-5
I tried the 3-2-1 but don't see the point. At the required tempo I think it's pretty flexible in general.

But for the second example I posted (starting 2nd bar), I did use the listed fingering at first but am now just using 1-4-5 throughout and it seems much simpler. Haven't got that part to tempo yet so we'll see what happens.

I agree with your first sentence, and violently disagree with your second. I think that injuries are MORE likely to result from attempting to use using 1-5 for everything than from using other fingers for some octaves.

To anyone who supports this ridiculous all 1-5 method, I'd like to hear your recording of the Chopin Etude Opus 25 No 10.

+100. Well said, sir.

(I cannot imagine that Kuan -whose posts I always admire- would disagree... would you?)

I didn't even know that some people advocated the use of 1-5, and nothing else, for octaves.
Personnally, I even use 1-3 a lot, in 3 notes passages (followed by 1-4 and 1-5), to achieve a legato sound.

My one - and only - injury from piano playing was from practising the 'galloping' LH octaves in Chopin's Op.53 using just 1-5: the PIPJ (first joint) of my left pinky became inflamed from RSI.

Once I'd switched to using 1-4 for the black keys, all that resolved. That was many years ago. And it's never recurred, though I've played many, many more harder pieces with octave runs etc - the vast majority of them using 1-4 for black octaves.

It really depends on the passage, and there's no reason, IMO, to stick to a conventional fingering just for the heck of it. I would use 1-4 in that etude, but I would probably use all 1-5 for the end of op. 10 no.5, because they octaves are more punctuated, non-legato, loud, and all on the same level. Convention might instead say to use all 1-4 because they're all black keys.

I think we aee more or less on the same page... where fingering is chosen not just on a legato or arbitrary basis, but is a balance on what effect you need, what your hands can give you and what your hands can handle before injury begins.

I've never played it, but if it is true octaves, I guarantee it can be played all 15. I've never met an octave section I couldn't play 15.

However, to be fair, I'll take a look at the score when I have a second.