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My question is in regards to the choice of 4th vs. 3rd fingers in certain 4-note chord inversions and in arpeggios. For instance:
<blockquote>....C E G C
LH 5 4 2 1</blockquote>
Now there is a trend in technique books to offer the option of using the 3rd finger for E. All of my students prefer this fingering at the outset although once the 4th is learned it does not cause a problem. I originally learned to use the 3rd on black keys including the Eb in a C minor chord/arpeggio. I have seen the 4th used there in some methods. I have also recently read the rule that the 4th is used when only one white key occurs between the notes.

Does anyone know the reasoning behind these fingering choices? Better yet, does anyone know a resource (book) that examines fingering and the rules that govern those choices?

When I learned to use the 4th finger I was told it was to help me with flexibility between the 5th and 4th finger, which can be very helpful when having to do large intervals in the LH. It is true that you don't want to use #4 for black keys, as that is too far of a span for most hands.

As far as resources, Keith Snell's scale books (published by Kjos) have been recommended to me and from glancing at them they seem to be good.

If you can comfortably play all four notes as a chord, then try both fingerings and see what happens to your hand position. For most people, using the third finger will mean twisting the wrist slightly, whereas the fourth finger produces a straighter position of the forearm and wrist. Therefore the 4th finger is (once you get used to it!) better for this arpeggio.

People with small hands might find that they simply can't cover the whole chord at once, in which case it may be better for those people to use the 3rd finger.

Conversely, looking at D major left hand, 3rd finger will be better for nearly everyone; and for C minor, 4th finger will nearly always be better.

There are some chords for which it's very hard to choose! For example, I play A flat major right hand with 3rd finger when ascending, and 4th finger when descending. (I think this type of fingering is discussed in a book by Josef Gat.)

Thank you, Alexander. I hadn't inspected the wrist. I usually scold my students when they use a different fingering for descending than ascending. Of course, their's is due to carelessness. I will have to look up Josef Gat.

If you use 3 you stretch and twist your hand.
On the other hand 4 is a weaker finger. So perhaps it would be good to practice 4 for strengthening it and using 3 when you need it for power.
It would also depend on the individual hand built.
I'd recommend practicing using both (alternately), as it will come in very handy.
Normally I'd use in LH on C major 3 and on C minor 4.
All the above is said about both chords and arpeggios.
In addition, in arpeggios you can use and teach (still talking about LH 4 notes of C major/minor) going up with 4 and down with 3.
Hope this helps.
Best wishes,
Rami
------------------------------------------------
Rami's Rhapsody Piano Camp for Adults, Students, Piano Teachers and Pianists

A lot depends on the individual's hand size and finger strength. Personally, for the L.H. C-E-G-C arpeggio, I use 5-3-2-1. I have pretty big hands, so my rationale for fingering is this: if there is just one letter between my 3rd and 2nd fingers, I use 3-2; if there are two or more letters between my 3rd and 2nd fingers, I use 4-2.

Example: for R.H. arpeggio E-G-C-E I use 1-2-4-5.

Finding NATURAL FINGERING in ARPEGGIOS:

The 1's and 5's are framing fingers for support, the inner fingers 2-3-4 are where the choices are to be make. You should have a consistant approach to choosing them,which I have written about below.

TRIADS: * equals Key Note/Tonic
ROOT POSITION: With a 5 finger position (* W-W-H W) form the ROOT POSITION playing fingers
RH1-3-5 and LH5-3-1.


FIRST INVERSION: Build from previous chord.
Substitute fingers RH5 = RH2. Maintain 5FP. Move thumb down a half step.
RH 1-2-5

LH1 = LH3. Maintain 5FP. Move thumb up a half step.
LH 5-3-1

SECOND INVERSION: Build from previous chord. Substitute finger RH5 = RH2. Maintain 5FP. Move thumb down a whole step.
RH 1-2-5

Substitute finger LH1 = LH3. Maintain 5FP. Move thumb up a half step.
LH 5-3-1

OCTAVES:
To find YOUR correct fingering for an octave form an octave with the 1 and 5 fingers holding the octave down. Which fingers are closest to the other notes in the chord or arpeggio?

The basis of this calculations are that your hand fits in a 5 Finger Position well.

You have to do the substitutions well, and also be able to position in 5 fingers.

Your natural position enhances movement on the keys for comfort and for finding.

FYI:
Root Positions consist of a Major 3rd + minor 3rd.
1st Inversions consist of a Major 3rd + Major 4
2nd Inversions consist of a Major 4 + Major 3

Betty

I'm sorry, I'm afraid you need to revise this whole explanation.
It's confusing when you say for 2nd inversion "Build from previous chord." and you mean from the root position, which was 2 chords away in the explanation.

You wrote the same for 1st and 2nd inversions.

You write "1st Inversions consist of a Major 3rd + Major 4", not if you're talking about a chord deriving from the root C, E, G.

There's no such thing as "a Major 4". what you mean to say is "a perfect 4th".
4ths, 5ths and octaves (and ones - "PRIMA") do not have major and minor, only perfect and augmented and diminished.
Best wishes,
Rami
-------------------------------------------------
Rami's Rhapsody Piano Camp for Adults, Students, Piano Teachers and Pianists.

I'll take a look at it again, thank you for bringing these things to my attention.

My "explanation" is simply to get the fingers moving ahead with a finger substitution and an interval fix. Fingers are choosing their hand shape while in movement toward the next inversion. They should leave and arrive on the next chords with no constraint, it should be a confident and easy move.

I was taking the explanation back to the calculations that can be made to arrive at the decision in many ways.

The whole idea was to learn to "fly" without the thinking behind it. Once understood, there is no reason to use it while playing. It is meant to create automatic actions.

Thank you for reading it thoroughly, Rami.

Betty

Forum Posting – Fingering for Arpeggios Rewritten

I have rewritten this document to be compatible to what Ravi was suggesting. I have also added some additional facts that I thought would be appropriate.

Finding NATURAL FINGERING in ARPEGGIOS:

The 1's and 5's are framing fingers for support, the inner fingers 2-3-4 are where the choices are to be make. You should have a consistent approach to choosing them, which I have written about below.

TRIADS: * equals Key Note/Tonic

ROOT POSITION: With a 5 finger position (* W-W-H W)
This forms the ROOT POSITION
C-E-G playing fingers RH1-3-5 and LH5-3-1.

FIRST INVERSION: Built from Root Position Chord.
RH - Substitute fingers RH5 = RH2. Maintain 5FP.
Move thumb down a half step.
This forms the RH FIRST INVERSION
E-G-C playing RH 1-2-5

LH - Substitute finger LH1 = LH3. Maintain 5FP.
Move thumb up a half step.
This forms the LH FIRST INVERSION
E-G-C playing fingers LH 5-3-1

SECOND INVERSION: Build from previous chord.
RH - Substitute finger RH5 = RH2. Maintain 5FP.
Move thumb down a whole step.
This forms the RH SECOND INVERSION
G-C-E playing fingers RH 1-2-5

LH - Substitute finger LH1 = LH3. Maintain 5FP.
Move thumb up a half step.
This forms the LH SECOND INVERSION
G-C-E LH 5-2-1

OCTAVES:
To find YOUR correct fingering for an octave form an octave with the 1 and 5 fingers holding the octave down. Which fingers are closest to the other notes in the chord or arpeggio?

The premise of these calculations is your hand will fit in a 5 Finger Position well.
The ROOT POSITIONS is written within a distance of a fifth
Then an extension of your thumb will find the 6th interval needed to play the FIRST and SECOND INVERSIONS in both hands. The RH moving the thumb down and away/The LH moving the thumb up and away from the other fingers.

You have to do the substitutions correctly and also be able to position in 5 fingers.

Your natural position enhances movement on the keys for comfort and for finding.

FYI: I have corrected to Perfect 4th
Root Position C-E-G (Major 3rd – minor 3rd)
1st Inversion E-G-C (minor 3rd - Perfect 4th)
2nd Inversion G-C-E (Perfect 4th – Major 3rd)


I have added:
Diatonic Scale Chords build on Degrees C D E F G A B (C)
G A B C D E F
E F G A B C D
C D E F G A B (C)
M m m M M m dim
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 (8)

Betty

Sorry, this whole part about the 2nd inversion is still wrong.
Best,
Rami

Are you saying you would normally finger a C major 2nd inversion chord in the RH with 1-2-5 ?? This seems seriously weird to me.
(Sure, there may well be plenty of examples in actual music where this fingering is necessary, but as a general rule??)

Checking my vocabulary. I know of triads in the first degree in root position. I see "key note triad" and "tonic triad". In what contexts is "key note" used instead of "tonic" (I'm not familiar with the term). When do you use "degrees" and when do you use the names "dominant, subdominant" etc. for chords?

Betty, first I was puzzled about your reference to the thumb moving up and down until I went to the piano. Initially I thought the thumb doesn't move, the hand is brought over a third. BUT in trying it I see that when I move to 1st inversion, my hand must expand. It can expand by moving 5 to the right (RH) or by keeping 5 comfortable and moving the thumb down. Since my thumb has a greater range of motion, a special relationship to the first finger, and is stronger, there is less tension in the hand if I expand my hand via the thumb. Is this the thinking behind what you write about the thumb?

Keystring asked: "Betty, first I was puzzled about your reference to the thumb moving up and down until I went to the piano. Initially I thought the thumb doesn't move, the hand is brought over a third. BUT in trying it I see that when I move to 1st inversion, my hand must expand. It can expand by moving 5 to the right (RH) or by keeping 5 comfortable and moving the thumb down. Since my thumb has a greater range of motion, a special relationship to the first finger, and is stronger, there is less tension in the hand if I expand my hand via the thumb. Is this the thinking behind what you write about the thumb?"

Betty: Yes, the reason for the expansion! There will be a missing key between the thumb and 2nd finger in the 1st and 2nd Inversions in both hands. We create larger intervals mainly by expanding at the thumb.

Currawong says: "This seems seriously weird to me."
Betty: Definitely, I agree with you. I'm weird today. I can't believe my mistakes, I know these things like my children's faces! I have to explanation for the "weirdness" I'm exhibiting today. OMG!

Ravi says: "Sorry, this whole part about the 2nd inversion is still wrong."

Betty: Definitely, I agree with you, too. Wrong, wrong, wrong! I hate making mistakes, but I'm so good at telling my students: "This is the place to make mistakes here at your lesson because we can FIX them! Let's SMILE when we catch one." Can I smile, getting caught here, absolutely not!

I still appreciate your capable minds and admonishments. It's for the higher good of all!

RH SECOND INVERSION
G-C-E playing fingers RH 1-2-5/LH 5-3-1

Love Ya!

Have we got it now?

Betty

This is a very important point, then Betty. May I suggest that in your Piano Power book, and when posting here, you stress the reason for the thumb. It is less likely to be ignored. My first impulse was "Well, I know how to place my hand already so why should I pay attention to this?" Many will have that reaction.

Betty, there was a time before that you made mention of the thumb. I think it was something along the lines that the thumb moves in and out from the index finger - not sure - but it had to do with expansion.

I have become very thumb obsessed because of my other instrument and work that was done in that respect. It is a unique digit holding something like 50% or more of nerve endings and occupying a large portion of the brain in feedback. What we do with the thumb can contribute to or alleviate tension. Many people are not aware that the thumb does not stop at the webbing but moves all the way from the knobblly bits at the wrist. It can be more flexible than it is and I'm sure that this plays a role in arpeggios and scales.

Yet I never see anything written about the thumb. There is a lot in little lesson to which I gave a link once given by Dr. William Leland. The scales and arpeggios book by Francis Cooke to which I got a link through this site also does a lot of preliminary work and exercises for the thumb. Yet it is rarely mentioned in piano forums I noticed.

um, don't you mean:
RH 1-3-5
LH 5-2-1


I suppose there's a possibility we're talking about two entirely different things

(I had to fill in the date on a form recently. I had no trouble with month and date, but I was really stumped on what year it was, for a good 5 seconds...)

By the way, I've just remembered that the original post was about four-note chords in various positions. So this is a bit off the topic, but I suppose it's good to get it sorted out.

The mark of an amateur is claiming to know everything and never admitting to a mistake. The mark of a professional is expertise combined with a certain cautiousness and the willingness to acknowledge and correct mistakes. Such a professional becomes a role model for us all.

Just wanted to add that yesterday I was at a masterclass (my first ever - but only as an observer)and this topic arose:

The student was playing a succession of four chords heading basswards with his left hand - a tonic a dominant a tonic and then a dominant.

He fingered them all using 5 3 and though he managed them all well the master teacher made him change his fingering so every time he played the E minor chord he played 5 4. So he needed to go 5 3 then 5 4 then 5 3 then 5 4.

The teacher's explanation was that in white note arpeggios (and hence the chords) you always use the 5 and 4 as your wrist position will be less awkward and you have stronger control.

Currawong patiently asks:
"um, don't you mean:
RH 1-3-5
LH 5-2-1"

Betty responds from the floor: 0______\/
"Throw a bucket of water on me!"

RH 1-3-5
LH 5-2-1"
Currawong, yes you are correct!

And, yes, I had gone back to the original topic, and realized this is off topic. It has been interesting in the responses and interchanges though.

Betty

All true and for the record, my name is Rami and not Ravi...
Best wishes,
Rami (not Ravi)