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I know I'm picking on a few words taken from a larger context, but it's their product, they designed it and they define the parameters within which it needs to operate to be considered "normal".

We can't decide that on their behalf, but we can of course decide what is acceptable to us personally.

The problem is that the clicking is inconsistent. If all the keys clicked the same amount when brand new and would remain that way we would call it a "feature" and some would be bothered by it and not buy a Kawai in the first place while others would be fine with it.

I once had an old digital piano where each key clicked consistently due to the design. It was a "feature". Now I have some inconsistent clicks, clacks and rattles, but I call it "wear".

Maybe some amount of inconsistent clicks on a Kawai is a "feature". 😏

I was at the opening of the new Bonners showroom in Newcastle (UK) yesterday, and while looking at the CA901 I had a short chat with the Kawai representative who was there. He told me that the new model will be announced (or available in the UK, I'm not sure) in the next several months. Overall, there won’t be many changes — same action, same speakers, same look. The changes will be in the control panel and there will be some new piano sounds added.

He also assured me that the new pianos don’t have “sticky keys” anymore — that the issue has been fixed, and, if I understood correctly, they’ve used new rubber pads. As proof, he ask me test the showroom unit — I can confirm the keyboard was silent, even when I tested it with the volume turned way down completely. Whether problems might show up later at home, I can’t say.

This informations made me seriously consider finally buying the CA901. Unfortunately, my teenage son insisted he doesn’t want any changes right now — he says the KDP120 is enough for him. I think that in 4-6 months, when he gets to more advanced pieces that require greater dynamics, he might change his mind.

Still, I think now is a good time to buy. Of course, I recommend asking in stores or directly contacting Kawai to confirm whether what I’m saying here is correct — meaning, whether I understood everything right.

Oh, and the Kawai representative also told me he knows the pianoworld.com forum.

@Goldenfeeder - The real problem for me is that these things are design defects, not just QC. My CA67 is dealing with slip tape and one vendor told me it would be $1000 to get serviced. Obviously I am going to end up doing it myself.

Same with the CA901 clicking, they should be moving heaven and earth to provide a real fix instead of treating them as disposable items. Surely this time they will get it right!

A vendor who releases defective product and then wants you to buy a new one to fix the issue is not one that I want to give my business to.

We are looking at a premium grand piano, but Shigeru Kawai is just flat out off the list. I don't trust the company.

I’m not sure if using the wrong pad material can really be called a “design defect.” But okay, fair enough — I guess you could call it that. What definitely isn’t a design defect, though, is using too much grease or applying it sloppily. That’s clearly a quality control failure.

Odin_Scotch described how he fixed the issue here:
https://forum.pianoworld.com/ubbthreads.php/topics/3582215/re-kawai-ca901-ca701.html#Post3582215

All it took was using a different grease, in smaller amounts. Maybe someone at Kawai in Japan finally took notice and either switched to a different pad that doesn’t require grease — or is more tolerant of excess grease — or maybe they sent someone to the Indonesian factory and told them to apply the proper amount more carefully. I don’t know, but the problem seems very easy to solve. And yes — it’s a huge embarrassment that it took this long. Kawai really has no excuse here.

In any case, the issue appears to be fixed now (if what I’ve been told is true), which means Kawai CA-series pianos are playable again and worth another look. That’s really all I wanted to say.

I’d be careful with that kind of criticism. You’ll have a hard time finding anything perfect. My son tried a few different instruments at Bonners:

Roland GP9 (£8,717) – Good sound, but to me it felt artificial, digital. Dynamics were so huge they almost felt unnatural.

Roland LX9 (£3,443) – Good sound, but during a very short play, a few notes just popped out as if from nowhere. Totally unnatural. Like listening to ChatGPT.

Kawai Novus NV10s (£7,399) – Fantastic action, poor, muffled tone.

Kawai K300 ATX4 – The upright piano action is just no good.

Shigeru Kawai SK-EX Grand (over £80K!) – The best one, and my son’s favourite (of course!), but the front edges of the keys were so sharp they almost cut his fingers. Can you believe that? £80K and sharp key edges?

And with all that, the CA901 still had almost no real dynamic range and constantly reminded us that it’s still just a digital piano — a cheap imitation, almost a toy.

If I understand it correctly, the excess grease and slip tape (pad) shifting are two unrelated issue. I have read MP11SE service manual for the Grand Feel I action. It specifically said no grease on or near the slip tape. Grease is only used for the hammer hinge, and let-off silicone tip.

The slip tape has been an issue because for most free movement of the hammer capstan the tape surface must be slippery. The most slippery material is teflon. However, the same slippery property also make it very difficult to be glued to the foam on the wooden key end. Plus someone recently mentioned the geometry of longer key stick in GF action make slip tape more prone to dent and shift position than the shorter RM3 Grand action in VPC1.

I have not see any photo of the detail of GF2 and GF3 action where the slip tape is. The outside view leave me the impression that an outer plastic bracket is added to serve the purpose of restricting the slip tape from shifting.

How a company deals with stuff that goes wrong tells you all about how much they truly value their customers. Releasing a new model and saying, "trust us, spend another $3K and this time we got it right" isn't exactly the pinnacle of customer service, it is in fact well near the bottom since if the pianos are disposable, they shouldn't price them as if they aren't.

And sure other makers may not be perfect.... But I already know that Kawai doesn't really stand behind their products.

Maybe my opinion will change, I am still waiting to hear from one more Kawai technician and see how much they want to fix Kawai's mistake.

Hi all,

The original Grand Feel action and its second iteration, the Grand Feel II (2) action, both utilise the 'Slip Tape' Teflon topped foam rubber pad and adjustable Capstan Screw interface and the fundamental issue is the difficulty in bonding the Teflon film to its supporting foam rubber pad to form the 'Slip Tape' assembly which can produce the sticky keys syndrome.

However, the latest Grand Feel III (3) iteration eschews the original design completely, replacing it instead with a plastic end cap and capstan design to the key stick instead. Ironically, there does appear to be reports of this producing a potential clicking noise from the action mechanism in certain circumstances. C'est la vie!

Part of the issue with 'Digital' keyboards is that they lack the mechanical noise produced by many acoustic actions (which is itself largely masked by the sound produced by the strings and soundboard) and that tends to highlight whatever noise is produced and becomes more apparent in use, especially if headphones are the primary sound source used by the player.

The closer that digital actions mimic acoustic actions the more likely they are to produce similar mechanical noise issues and require the equivalent of the regulation that acoustic actions routinely require.

Ultimately you pay's your money and takes your choice!

Kind regards,

Tog

Yes, that's true. As far as I know, slip tape/pad shifting was present in the CA99. In the CA901, this problem was fixed, but the excess grease persisted. I bought a CA701 10 months ago and returned it after a week because of the noise from excess oil. It was a very disappointing experience. Please follow the comments of Odin_Scotch, one of the few people who dared to disassemble his new CA901. He found the problem and solved it.

Hello Goldenfeeder,


Perhaps this person was referring to the forthcoming NV6?

I'm not aware of any new CA models planned for release "in the next several months".


The CA99 (and CA79) and CA901 (and CA701) use the same GFIII keyboard action - there is no slip tape/pad used in this action design.

Kind regards,
James
x

Hello tknx,

I'm sorry to read that you are experiencing issues with your CA67's keyboard action.

Assuming that you are based in the US, may I ask if you have contacted Kawai America directly regarding this matter?[/quote]

Kind regards,
James
x

Hi James,

.
Probably he told me more like there definitely won't be new CA models for the next several months. So it makes sense now. I apologize for writing that incorrectly. I'm repeating this from memory, not quoting exactly. And yes, he also informed me about the new NV6.

.
Thanks for the correction!

Yeah, I contacted them and they referred me to a couple of local Kawai specialists. One wants $1000 to fix it and I am waiting to hear from the other. I will most likely end up repairing it myself but I am mostly mad because it was their lack of proper material science that led to this problem...

You shouldn't believe in any changes in the quality of Kawai products based on the statement of one seller in the UK. And perhaps he meant rubber tips instead of metal screws - the difference in the GF2 and GF3 mechanisms, and not the new keyboard, which has not yet gone on sale. Regarding lubrication - I want to correct your erroneous conclusion, excess lubrication in the hammer hinges causes squelching sounds of oil, and the feeling of different weights (tight keys) is caused by lack of lubrication, its poor quality or insufficient quantity in the place of friction of the hammer stops with plastic tips, in my case, the problem of all poorly sliding keys was completely solved only by completely replacing the remains of the factory grease (or whatever was there) with another. The new grease contains Teflon (silicone + PTFE). Before applying grease to the rubber pushers, you need to thoroughly clean the plastic tips and rubber pushers from the old grease. Even less grease is required than I applied, this is half a match head on each key. This problem causes a feeling of different weight, too light weight due to poor overall dynamics, and different volume of keys due to different speed of keystroke on sensors, and also makes it difficult to produce a quick sound repetition, to produce trills and glissando. You can also notice poor sliding when returning the key, if it does not bounce, then it slides poorly and the problem needs to be solved (the problem can be both with poor lubrication and with friction of felt in the key hole). After solving the problem of sliding keys, the overall dynamics of the keyboard, ease of pressing and the feeling of normal dynamic weight become simply excellent. And I am ready to bet that those who consider the weight of the Kawai keys too light in sensations, if your keys are well lubricated you will feel the correct dynamic weight and your opinion will change, since the dynamic weight of the keys with normal sliding becomes heavier. There are 2 concepts of key weight, usually - the weight of the hammer and the force required to lift it, and the total weight of the piece of wood with counterweights, and when you need to move the dynamic weight, you need to apply more force than if you needed to move the key without counterweights. Bad lubrication changes the impression of the total weight and dynamic weight, the dynamic weight seems small, and the total weight seems large. After solving the problem causing the key to slide poorly, everything becomes the opposite. I enjoy playing on my keyboard and this difference in sensations is simply huge.