Welcome to the Piano World Piano Forums Over 3 million posts about pianos, digital pianos, and all types of keyboard instruments. Over 100,000 members from around the world.
Join the World's Largest Community of Piano Lovers
(it's free)
It's Fun to Play the Piano ... Please Pass It On!
Here is a comparison between the Grand Touch S action on the Yamaha P525 and the TP400 on the Numa X Piano GT. Are single key repetitions important to you and what that influence your decision on which action/piano you would buy?
David , just so that you know , there is a mistake in the video . At 6.10 when you want to demonstrate that the TP400W is sloppy for repeated notes , you included a video sequence recorded on the P525 which has ghost notes ! So imho it shows the p525 is not perfect for repeated notes . If you say that the TP400W is inferior , then it is not a good point and is an issue when you use ribattuto technique specially on the black keys as you mentioned they are heavier compare to the Yamaha . Imho the king in the maximum number of notes per sec with ribattuto is the Kawai RH3 action with light 2 velocity curve and key touch sensitivity set to 1 . As fast as an acoustic even on black keys that the same inertia than white keys . Way faster than my MP11 and VPC1!
Thanks David. Can you actually feel the "escapement" point on P-525 action - is it consistent, can you play "above the escapement" such as on a grand piano?
Also if you could measure the full downweight on a middle C (the minimum static weight needed to produce a sound; velocity 1 or more), that would be great
Imho the king in the maximum number of notes per sec with ribattuto is the Kawai RH3 action with light 2 velocity curve and key touch sensitivity set to 1 . As fast as an acoustic even on black keys that the same inertia than white keys . Way faster than my MP11 and VPC1!
I don't remember if RH3 action was that fast.
Would like to see a video evidence of playing a 2-finger trill faster than 16 notes per second on a RH3 action (e.g. ES-920), around middle C (not high C). That translates to 8 notes per second (single note)... I don't think it is possible on Kawai. Too much inertia and friction
Even if these speeds are achieved (thanks to 3-sensor tricks), there is almost no control of dynamics. Just try a crescendo or decrescendo during fast trills...
David , just so that you know , there is a mistake in the video . At 6.10 when you want to demonstrate that the TP400W is sloppy for repeated notes , you included a video sequence recorded on the P525 which has ghost notes
I'm not sure what you're referring to. Both actions were controlling the Modern D. What you hear is what those actions produced in that moment. Each recording was done individually with a fresh track. There is no blending of two tracks.
Originally Posted by eleos
Imho the king in the maximum number of notes per sec with ribattuto is the Kawai RH3 action with light 2 velocity curve and key touch sensitivity set to 1 . As fast as an acoustic even on black keys that the same inertia than white keys . Way faster than my MP11 and VPC1!
Yeah, the Kawsi RHIII is built for speed. If you don't mind the higher up weight/push back on your fingers, it's a capable action.
Thanks David. Can you actually feel the "escapement" point on P-525 action - is it consistent, can you play "above the escapement" such as on a grand piano?
The SE is done very nicely on the Grand Touch S. It's very subtle and serves the purpose of letting you feel the key is about to trigger the note when playing softly.
David , just so that you know , there is a mistake in the video . At 6.10 when you want to demonstrate that the TP400W is sloppy for repeated notes , you included a video sequence recorded on the P525 which has ghost notes
I'm not sure what you're referring to. Both actions were controlling the Modern D. What you hear is what those actions produced in that moment. Each recording was done individually with a fresh track. There is no blending of two tracks.
Hey David in your video at 5:32 you demonstrate repeated notes on the P525 At 6:10 when you want to compare and demonstrate how the Numa X GT performs , you show another run on the P525 which has ghost notes instead of showing the Numa .
Just watch it again starting at 5:30 for the whole sequence .
EDIT : I forgot to mention that in the MIDI section of your video, it is also important to note that the P525 doesn't send variable note off to external VST's which I think is an issue given the only Midi parameters that influence single note sound in a digital piano keyboard are [Note - On] pitch & Velocity and [Note-Off] pitch & velocity. Note-off via midi OUT is fixed = 64 on the Yamaha . In that department , on top of better midi range, the Numa X GT beats the Yamaha big time. It is probably another story when you compare internal sound banks.
in your video at 5:32 you demonstrate repeated notes on the P525 At 6:10 when you want to compare and demonstrate how the Numa X GT performs , you show another run on the P525 which has ghost notes instead of showing the Numa .
Just watch it again starting at 5:30 for the whole sequence .
My friend, you are mistaken. At 6:10 that is the Numa X Piano GT controlling the Modern D. The pianos don't even look alike so I'm surprised that it's hard for you to see the distinction.
in your video at 5:32 you demonstrate repeated notes on the P525 At 6:10 when you want to compare and demonstrate how the Numa X GT performs , you show another run on the P525 which has ghost notes instead of showing the Numa .
Just watch it again starting at 5:30 for the whole sequence .
My friend, you are mistaken. At 6:10 that is the Numa X Piano GT controlling the Modern D. The pianos don't even look alike so I'm surprised that it's hard for you to see the distinction.
God bless, David
Oh yes you are right, the camera must have been placed more or less in the same spot and given we don't see the wooden panels of the Numa, I wrongly assumed it was an error in the video. My mistake. Cheers
David, your fastest repetition was ~ 13.5 notes per second "sustained" (a single note, two hands) on P-525 - around 10:58 timestamp. Unfortunately, I cannot embed an image, but it is very clear from a Spectral View.
Would like to see you playing a singled handed trill (E-D#-E-D#...) on this keybed too.
Any other DP of a comparable performance that you know, in this price range?
And could you please clarify for me, how did you measure touchweight on P-525 (from the video: whites 80-70g, blacks 70-60g, upweight 40-30g).
Was it (downweight) from the top to the 1) SE point, 2) sound activation, or 3) bottom of keybed?
And upweight - from the very bottom to the top, or a few mm below the top?
For the Grand Touch S I measured the static downweight to the simulated escapement because it's at the bottom of the key dip right before the note sounds. I think it would give a distorted view if I were to measure the static downweight all the way through the SE (to the note sounding) because it's going to take considerably more weight to overcome the SE just using gravity to pull the wight down when in reality you don't really notice the SE in the dynamic weight unless you're playing as soft as you can play.
For the upweight I measured from the bottom to the top (key level).
For the Grand Touch S I measured the static downweight to the simulated escapement because it's at the bottom of the key dip right before the note sounds. I think it would give a distorted view if I were to measure the static downweight all the way through the SE (to the note sounding) because it's going to take considerably more weight to overcome the SE just using gravity to pull the wight down when in reality you don't really notice the SE in the dynamic weight unless you're playing as soft as you can play.
Thanks David.
I think this should be a separate measurement and comparison (full downweight). I'm guessing around 100g (middle C), or 110g for heavier actions.
(not "full" but just enough to produce a sound... "a ppp downweight")
It is strange - I like the SE and expect to feel it at many dynamics (ppp-mf). A good example is Roland HP-307. Just perfect.
But I was not able to feel the SE on a CLP-725 (also GrandTouch-S). Almost as it didn't exist.
On P-525, is this point approx. 3-4mm from the bottom? And it still activates 2 sensors (below that point) for velocity detection?
Tried a dexibell h10 today with the tp400w action. It’s a very fast action and I had no issues repeating notes unlike you which is very odd….
I would suspect Dexibell doesn't use the same firmware/software parameters that Studiologic does. I have a Studiologic/Fartar action in my Nord and I have no problem repeating notes with it. That's why I'm hopeful Studiologic will come out with a firmware update to address the "issue" with the TP400 used in their products.
Quote
However despite being a very capable action, the downweight seemed far too high when playing softly, found that part of it disturbing.
I was comparing directly to the Casio gp310 action also which felt much better overall.
I did notice that the friction seemed to be higher when my action was new. It broke-in nicely. Not sure if that could be what you were experiencing. Also, I don't know if the Dexibell has the simulated escapement. That could make the action feel different as well.
I wish the Casio GP/Bechstein action was available in a slab/portable format. I'd order one today.
For the Grand Touch S I measured the static downweight to the simulated escapement because it's at the bottom of the key dip right before the note sounds. I think it would give a distorted view if I were to measure the static downweight all the way through the SE (to the note sounding) because it's going to take considerably more weight to overcome the SE just using gravity to pull the wight down when in reality you don't really notice the SE in the dynamic weight unless you're playing as soft as you can play.
Thanks David.
I think this should be a separate measurement and comparison (full downweight). I'm guessing around 100g (middle C), or 110g for heavier actions.
(not "full" but just enough to produce a sound... "a ppp downweight")
It is strange - I like the SE and expect to feel it at many dynamics (ppp-mf). A good example is Roland HP-307. Just perfect.
But I was not able to feel the SE on a CLP-725 (also GrandTouch-S). Almost as it didn't exist.
On P-525, is this point approx. 3-4mm from the bottom? And it still activates 2 sensors (below that point) for velocity detection?
I looked at the HP 307. Do you have it? That model in pictures looks sexy af.
