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Hello / Hola!

My family is moving from Washington DC to Madrid this summer. I'm shopping for my son's first piano, upgrading from a weighted keyboard on teacher's recommendation.

Can anybody experienced with this type of scenario share some considerations that I might have overlooked? If we're looking into the entry-level/budget market, is there a clear-cut suggestion pursue one of the options, below?

Expertise
I'm conservatory trained all the way through the doctoral level, but eventually had to cut my hair and get a W2 job. In all my years in music, I probably say 1% of pianos that weren't steinways. I know basically nothing about pianos. I've read Larry's book and been stalking these forums a good bit.

Budget
The player is 10 years old. He has real natural talent -- for fun he inverts melodies and transposes things into other keys, etc. We're not rich, so we are shopping at the sub-$1000/give-away budget level, where people want pianos gone from their homes and the "true" expense is the (local) moving cost. I regularly see full size upright Baldwins and there are tons of consoles which might get the job done of introducing him to real actions.

Quality
Obviously we're at the mercy of our budget level, but I just want something that is somewhat neutral enough that he can develop voicing skills, etc.


OPTION A: Buy in my hometown (Washington DC) and move with it (to Madrid)

Moving costs
My employer will cover all moving costs & import issues/duties/taxes. A regular moving company will crate it and another local company will get it into our new apartment.

Transit stress
Thinking it's not a huge risk at this budget level. Should I not tune/service it until after the move?

Climate
Washington & Madrid are close enough, methinks.



OPTION B: Buy in our destination (Madrid)

Sourcing
I assume Madrid would have a healthy used market, as any international city. I'd be a fish out of water, with Spanish as a second language and a very new "sense" of the city. I'm no Washington insider, but I live here and know the USA well enough. I've bought and sold professional-level string instruments. We'll be busy once we arrive, won't know where the grocery stores or gyms are located, let alone how to buy a piano.

Budget
Maybe the exchange rate for purchase and labor is to our benefit

Moving costs & Transit stress
n/a


My wife is already really mad at me for researching so much. Would you be my neighbor, and help me Occams-Razor my way out of this?

If I was in your situation, my approach would be to minimize all the stress and uncertainty that accompanies the first few months adjusting to life in a foreign country. Since you don't have to pay for any of the costs associated with transport, I would probably buy a piano in the DC area and get that task out of the way, unless you learn in advance about some quick and easy purchase opportunity in Madrid.

NOTE: My advice would be different if your budget was significantly higher.

"Shopping at the sub-$1000 / give away budget level"... ouch.

Unless you happen upon something remarkable for next to nothing, I can't think of anything in that category that is likely to be worth moving that far nor would it likely be anything I'd want to play.

Many probably won't appreciate this comment but at that price point, I'd seriously be looking at keyboards vs acoustic pianos if you want something now. Upgrade when you get to where you're going if you want to, you can take it with you.

Good luck!

Wait until you get there and buy a digital from thomann. Upgrade to an acoustic once cultural comfort level and budget allow.

If you spend any quality time here you’re going to see very quickly that buying a “giveaway” budget level piano is probably the biggest mistake that you can make. You’re going to spend 3 or 4 times whatever you paid for it just trying to make it work. And by the time you e done that, you could have spent the same amount and gotten a nice little piano in decent condition. You’re spending a dollar to save a nickel.

Just wait until you get there and see what the market looks like. Prices in Europe for musical instruments are much, much lower than they are in the states.

After reading the thread title my first thought was to wait until you get to Spain, because new pianos tend to cost less in Europe, often significantly less. But then I realized that you're looking for a second hand piano.


At this price level I think you'll find that the true expense will be accumulated in tunings and periodic maintenance. Given your son's talent and interest, you'll naturally want to keep the piano in good working order.

As one who has also moved back and forth to Europe, I'm going to make an unorthodox suggestion. If your expat adventure is temporary, meaning your company is sending you on an international assignment to Spain for a finite period of time, then I'd wait to buy something in Spain because it would be a nice souvenir later to have the piano you "brought back from Spain." The same dynamic exists in Europe: old neglected uprights can be purchased relatively cheaply, but you might find a nice European specimen. On the flip side, if you're going to stay in Spain forever, then it might be kinda cool to have an American piano that you brought with you. Either way, the cost is low, and maintenance will exceed it in the long term.

In that case, with your budget, I'd look for something in Europe. There's not a lot in that budget range but in general, a European upright is going to be better than an American upright in that price range.

For example, you can probably find something like a Young Chang U1 at that price in Europe, which at least has a good, serviceable action, and is a full-sized upright rather than a spinet. You might find a Petrof or Weinbach as well, which are also better than say a Kimball spinet.

None of the pianos I've mentioned are great pianos. In your situation I would consider digital instruments. Sure, you might not like them as much but it's going to be a safer option. At the 1000 dollar/euro level you aren't hiring a technician to inspect the piano or have it serviced since that already doubles the price. At 1000 Dollars/Euros you're hoping to find a miracle bargain, or you're hoping to find something you can tolerate.

Used keyboards are probably a good option. A Clavinova or a Roland that works will be just fine. I'm certainly not anti-digital piano, I just don't love them. The great thing about digital pianos is that they've made piano ownership far more affordable.

Another benefit to waiting until you get to Spain is to size up your living situation. As others have noted, a digital might make more sense economically, but you may also want/need the ability to play through headphones. If you're living in densely populated housing, there may be noise restrictions, and you'll want to be a good neighbor.

I appreciate all the initial replies! Especially as my Q is probably a variation on the theme of Strad-in-the-dumpster question..

We currently have a Yamaha P45 with "weighted-ish" action. But your comments have actually encouraged me to consider looking into higher quality Yamaha digitals.

I also want to mention that I've purchased/maintained/played string instruments at the +$20k USD. I definitely believe there is a time and place to spend money on an instrument, but I also want my kids to earn it, if they really want it. Which is also to say there is time to not spend on an instrument, also.

I'll confess that I am definitely trying to dial it in between miracle bargain & something we can all tolerate. I just found a pre 1980 Baldwin (maybe Hamilton upright) that hasn't been tuned in 20 years, but was only played by girls (not boys!) in the same family. Probably not humidified. But that's the kind of profile that I can imagine having some potential. Or do the bridles degrade, action pieces warp, and the soundboards crack and I'm just fantasizing?

Anyway, if we end up with a saloon upright fit for a house of ill repute, maybe I'll just call it his Brahms Hamburg training era. What's the worst that can happen? He ends up frei aber einsam?

I have not paid attention to the relationship b/w the US and Spain (I'm focused on E. Asia) but is it possible that tariffs could change such that shipping a piano from the US to Spain would be more cost prohibitive in a few months than it is right now?

Just another thing to factor in.... It seems to me that there are pros and cons on both sides, and not an obvious "best answer"...

Either way, international moves are stressful, so good luck!!

I cannot imagine a playable sub-1K acoustic piano.
If you mean digital - buy in Spain. Prevents any issues with power outlet differences and with warranty.

Hi! I live in Spain. If you do decide to look for a piano in Madrid, here are some ideas:

For used pianos, you can find ads on Milanuncios.com or es.Wallapop.com . Local conservatories/music schools are also worth a look for any ads posted on physical message boards.

For shopping new (just to compare) or secondhand from a store: Royalpianos.com doesn't have a physical shop in Madrid, but the website is useful for checking out prices. I've been to one of their shops - the people working there were polite and professional. One thing I've noticed is that prices seem way more transparent here (in Spain, probably in Europe generally) than in the US - the sticker price is pretty much the lowest price you'll get. There are plenty of stores in Madrid, some which also sell used as well as new - although this would all be beyond a budget of 1,000. As others have said, a good digital might be a more interesting option for this price.

Ok, ok, you know what --- I'll confess that I really haven't been able to stay in touch with the digital offerings in the last 10 years. I used to be a recording technician and I have done oodles with MIDI and DAWs. And honestly, I feel, deep in my bones, that using technology has an intangible negative cost on certain elements of music. One of our earliest "toy" keyboards had this dang "demo mode" and I physically destroyed the button to keep my kids from using it. I want to them to be mischievous with their FINGERS, if that makes sense. Anyway.

Maaaybe we are at the stage of needing to upgrade to a $2k USD digital instrumental and the plan for an acoustic in like, 4 years.

I've been reading the digital forums and my eyes are blurry, but maybe this is the way.

Why would I be willing to bend our budget for a digital? Because I'd want to get the best action our budget can allow for. "Sound" outside of a concert hall has no real meaning. The only real reason we're upgrading is to develop his sense of touch.

There is an 80's Pleyel somewhere in Spain on Klaviano for $3400 CAD, not sure how much that is in US$. Klaviano is a good resource to go to.

https://www.klaviano.com/pianos-for-sale/index2.html

There is an awful lot out there that’s good in the $1000-$2000 range for digital portable keyboards. A full 88 keys with weighted, graded action and a bunch of connectivity options. The Yamaha p225, P515. Roland FP30x, FP60X. Kawai ES520 or ES920. All great options.

With that limited of a budget I’d definitely point you in that direction over an acoustic.

On that note, I'm the owner of a Kawai ES920... about to get a grand piano very soon (yay!), but the digital has kept this amateur classical pianist happy in the meantime, when housing situation/finances/etc made owning an acoustic less than practical.
Connectivity and transportability are also very nice features to have, not to mention the ability to play with headphones.

Not to hijack the thread, but… do tell! I’m moving in a few months and I can’t wait to get into the new place so I can get an acoustic.

Since you’ve asked… a 20-year-old Blüthner Model 6 I found secondhand! Once it’s actually in my house (next few weeks, hopefully) I’ll send in my update to the Blüthner Model 6 thread. :-)

Happy moving and piano hunting!

Ret,
It's not permanent, so maybe it's a chance to peruse and get a European model as a memory/heirloom. (Although heirlooms are really just white elephants in the long run.)






Great recommendations - thank you for sharing those, Squid. Good to see the prices and see the full spectrum of Clavinovas available. Benefits of globalization, I suppose.



Appreciate the digital recs. I was able to try out a couple digitals, today. Higher-end Rolands were interesting; it was nice to see how the different key length progressively improves the feel. As for the Yamaha slab, I was genuinely surprised how unimpressive the Yamaha P525 is; felt very similar to the P45 we own; for the price, I would rather play a giveaway piano. Really.

But the Clavinova CLP825 at $2k was something I could see us living with.

The Kawai MP11SE and any Roland with the PHA50 action will mimic most accurately the feel of a grand piano. Those are $2000-$3500 instruments in the states. But there are duty taxes charged on Kawai keyboards that are imported to the US. You might get a great deal on a top of the line Roland or Kawai digital pianos in Spain.