Piano World Home Page Forums Our Most Popular Forums Piano Forum Bösendorfer 290 Pricing

Hi all,

I've been reading posts on this forum for some time now and greatly appreciate the wealth of knowledge on this site! As my first post, I have a grand question (heh.. sorry).

I moved into a new house a few months back and have begun the search for a serious long-term piano. I am fortunate enough to have a great room in my house with a lot of volume to fill, and have always wanted a concert grand piano for the rich warmth and depth that seems to only come with such sizes. I have always loved the warmer tones of Bösendorfer, and so I've been focusing on either a newer 280VC or a 290 Imperial. I've done a good bit of research to understand the instrumental differences and have been seeking out examples to test drive, but especially with the 290 I'm surprised at how variable the used prices seem to be. I understand not many examples exist, particularly in North America, but still I was surprised.

I've seen a number of posts mentioning individuals on this forum who have purchased or dealt with Bösendorfer 290s, would anyone be willing to comment on what a typical price range might be for good used examples and what would justify the outliers above and below said range? I see a few active listings from random piano dealers in the $150-200k range, but I've also seen some under $100k, including a recently sold listing at $76k. Of course there are large general reasons for big pricing differences - age, condition, location, specific instrument variations, etc. but given two used instruments in good working order, what could justify a $100k+ difference in price?

To give a specific example, I'm looking at a 2002 example that's priced just below $100k with a rebalanced and "extensively serviced" action in June of '24, and I'm wondering if this is common, a good deal, or too good to be true. I'm not assuming the piano to be perfect, but if I can get a solid piano for that much less than other active listings, surely that would cover the additional upkeep and maintenance that may come with a cheaper option, right? Or am I just being naive.

All advice welcome - thanks!

P.S. - on a more piano-nerd note, I thought I'd point out that I've been leaning towards the 290 over the 280VC for largely emotional reasons (I mean, come on, it's an Imperial - instead of a poster car growing up I gawked at all the stats of the absurd Bosie 290). That said, classically I primarily play romantic piano (Rachmaninoff, Beethoven, Chopin, etc.) which the rich tone is amazing for, but I also play a ton of Jazz (Gershwin, Joplin, and more modern standards like Ellington and Brubeck) which is unfortunately often on the opposite end of the spectrum. The 280VC may be a more balanced option for my mixed interests, but I've also heard some thoughts about it trying too hard to be everything so it's almost too neutral.

Does anyone have thoughts on the tonal differences between these two instruments, and particularly for my genres? I have the most experience with Yamaha instruments, which is seemingly on the other end of the spectrum - great for fast peppy Jazz, a bit bright for heavy romantic pieces IMO - so I think I'm just worried to make a 180 change and regret it.

This sounds like a fun, and probably occasionally stressful...search.

The 290 Imperial and 280VC seem different in tone, to me. Is there a reason you're not considering fairly recent versions of the standard model 280 as well? There can't be all that many used 280VC for sale in the US (assuming that's where you are, you don't indicate location in your profile), as the model is quite recent in this market.

However, among the 290 and 280 models there is some variability due to either how the specific piano came together, how it's been kept and used, and its current state of technical preparation. If you're a discerning pianist, it's not really enough to just state you want "model X" when shopping used, or even new.

I worked at a school that had a 290 in a concert space. It was kept under lock and key, it was probably 25 years old at the time, the humidity environment was lousy, and it wasn't a great example-- the treble couldn't keep up with the bass, and I only used it for specific chamber repertoire, never having "connected" with it for the solo repertoire I was preparing at the time. However, there are also examples of the model 290 that are more balanced, and I've heard a few recordings that were truly spectacular. I have tended to enjoy my experiences playing the 280 and 280VC more, and find their respectively more modern design and tonal aesthetics more versatile. But not every used one of these is a "great" piano in its current state, either.

I assume you have reached out to Bösendorfer dealers and other piano dealers in your area to see what's for sale, and trolled through listings on pianomart? Have you run across https://myperfectpiano.com also? I've not done business with him, but I have met him before and found him pleasant to talk to. Are you willing to go through the possibility of importing one from Europe (and all that entails)?

Psychologically, if I'm putting down a six figure amount for a piano, I want it to be perfect, and I'm going to be generally disappointed until it is. But I'm picky...

Sounds like great fun! I cannot but dream. 🥹

Hi! In 2023 I was in a similarly fortunate position as you, in terms of considering the Imperial, vis-a-vis the 280VC. I ended up with the 280VC, after spending four full days playing both side-by-side.



In my semantics, I'd call it more "lush" than the term "warm" since sometimes the latter can have connotation of less treble, more difficult to hear, pillowy, etc. I definitely think both of those instruments are lush in their sound.



That does seem interesting. Perhaps this is due to many factors you had already cited, as well as the sort of folks who'd put one up for sale. They initially purchased it new perhaps with no budget in mind, and then when they sold it [private sale], not overly zealous about how much they're "getting back" versus from a dealer. And the age of owners is probably skewed towards Boomer generation, which is very different from someone say, in their 30's. If aforementioned person were to sell, it's also probable they're downsizing their retirement; no longer able to play due to physical constraints; terminal issues, etc. Then it'd feel like an "estate sale" and the buyer potentially could get a "deal" due to those unfortunate circumstances.

Meanwhile, a piano dealer would have different motivations to sell the instrument at a higher price. They made the purchase, then refurbished/restored/ or did something minimal, to get it to at least showroom condition. That, coupled with housing it in their storage or showroom, has business costs.



I assume you've been perusing PianoMart, and we're looking at the same listings. The one you're talking about is likely the one that was previously listed in Manhattan (the still existent photos appear to show that still), which was previously listed around $110K or something, and is now posted as being in Texas, around $90K. If it's indeed in great condition, I think that's a steal.

That said, with today's retrenched economy - in the US and globally - coupled with waning interest in pianos in general, I'm not shocked at the possibility of getting a great "steal" these days, depending on the seller's situation.

What I can say confidently, is that no one currently, would be able to privately sell their pre-owned instrument, for anything more than say, $160K. Not even a Fazioli F308, that's used for about 5 years or so would command that much. Folks who are looking for a great deal, likely aren't within the extremely high price point, and those who can afford that amount would probably either stretch to the price of a new version (if one's going to get the pinnacle instrument, the feeling of getting it new would be significant). Those looking for a great value, would think the prices are just too steep, particularly since it's used. One could argue, why not instead get a new C.Bechstein B212; Bosendorfer 214VC; or a new Sauter, etc., and compromise on size, but it's new, versus a massive instrument, etc.


As had I, and we almost got the 290 instead! When we ended up getting the 280VC, we asked the dealer if we could spend the evening playing the 290 as a magical moment. It indeed is magical.



In my home, the 280VC sounds quite opposite of neutral, and in hindsight I'm glad we got it over the 290 (both of which are spectacular). There are a few pieces where the 290 would sound better, but way more pieces where we enjoyed the 280VC more. For Liszt, Rachmaninoff, and music requiring bombast, oomph, raw power, while sounding delicate on the high end, it's amazing. I also found it remarkable specifically for contemporary jazz, and especially neo soul chords. It sounds so.... ROBUST.

These are elements that I couldn't find from the 290. I think apologists of the Imperial, and part of my heart, really really wants the 290 to be amazing for all genres, but when examining my honest assessment, it's not.

So it's a phenomenal instrument, that's not optimal (as in, a 10 out of 10) for every genre.


The regret piece is a wholly new topic, but my best advice is-- go with what you want, and MAKE it the right decision for you in retrospect. It's tempting/natural to have some hindsight bias, and imagining "what if" you got the other instrument. Bottom line is, you, just like all of us, can very easily justify why one piano is better than the other - both logically and subjectively. I could name 5 reasons why a Fazioli, Bechstein, Steinway, Yamaha, Mason & Hamlin, you name whatever, is better than Bosendorfer, and 5 reasons why the other way around. Same for the 290 vs. 280VC, etc., etc.

Ultimately I now have what I consider the best instrument in the world, and it only makes sense that many people disagree with that. Because that's their opinion, and this is my opinion.

If and when you get your super Bosendorfer, relish what you like most about it, and focus your sentimental on what you love most, and resist the temptation of "but what if" etc. etc.

Thanks for tuning in, to my two cents on this journey that I previously and currently experience!

Interested to hear input on this, it’s a complicated purchase to figure out, but a very exciting one!

A pianist friend teaches someone who owns a relatively new Imperial and he actually isn’t a fan of it. It might be an overpowering instrument. One thing I would add is to get the piano that you really fall in love with, regardless of the dream being owning the perceived “best.”

I’ve been in this market too for a bit, looking at the 225. My assumption on pricing variability is there likely aren’t a lot of people buying $75-100k pianos, at least where ai live. It could take many months, and maybe a seller would rather have a quicker sale. Plus the details of the condition and upkeep that sellers rarely make an effort to disclose in ads.

That's an interesting observation from your pianist friend! If the Imperial's not their cup of tea, that's perfectly fair. Many people adore it, others do not.

However as far as "overpowering" - I've felt that the Imperial at times the opposite (compared to their counterparts). Did the pianist friend think this due to the piano's size versus the room? Because in my experiences I've found the Steinway Model D; Bosendorfer 280VC; Yamaha CFX, etc. to feel more overpowering (from a volume standpoint) than the Imperial. And the Steingraeber E-272 I've played recently was extremely loud compared to any instrument I've ever played.

Anyway. Sidetracked question from me

I would really need to ask before adding much more, but he gave the impression it might have been a room issue. I’m personally looking for the opposite of overpowering in a grand, and something with excellent dynamic control.

Why don't you go shopping in Europe? There are many Imperials available and even with costs for transportation and tariffs you will most likely end up with a fine instrument at a fraction of the price you would pay in the US.

Two things though: 1) Imperials had ivory keys up into the 90s - and selling any piano with ivory keys manufactured after 1975 is illegal and trying to import to the US you will most likely lose your piano. 2) Always take a long a competent technician once you have identified an interesting instrument. A 290 may sound, look and play like a dream - and yet be in dire shape. Bösendorfer concert grands (excluding the 280VC) are notorious for pin block failures and repairing this is tedious and expensive work. There may be other culprits that aren't obvious to a non-technician - and you may end up with a piano that you like, but will have to reserve quite some substantial money for extensive repairs.

Having said that, I bought my 1973 Imperial for less than 30k EUR and I was aware of many of the problems with strings, pin block and surface damages, I still bought it, because it's a very nice piano.



It's hit and miss with Bösendorfer actions on grands from that time. Some have an unbearably high inertia and I never could get used to that. My Imperial, however, has a wonderful action, balanced and precise. It's a studio instrument i.e. not rented out for concerts, which makes it OK for me to leave it just as it is. Will have it thoroughly voiced, though, once my technician is back from a long stint abroad. It's current voicing is inflexible, not resilient/springy, has a little dynamic range and a lot less colors that define the potential of a really nice Imperial.

Altogether, it would take roughly 20k EUR and a decent piano maker to get this piano into ship shape in every regard. Which translates to less than 50k EUR as the final price for an incredible piano.

Try a Sauter Omega, an amazing instrument, wonderful tone and response, one of the top! Sauter a fully independently German owned manufacturer!

A 220cm is not a concert grand.

Wow, thank you all for so much feedback! I'll do my best to address the various points brought up in order:


No particular reason, I just haven't seen examples for sale so far. I would also be open to a 275 for that matter, but I have not had the opportunity to try one. I am indeed in the US as you suspected (east coast, DC area), I'll update my profile


Pianomart for sure, and whatever else I can find with the good 'ol powers of google. I've called my local dealers, but it seems having one in a showroom is quite rare here - which I was actually surprised by given the wealth concentration around DC and VA. I found a 1988 200 model at a local dealer, but was disappointed in the clarity and dynamic range (if that makes sense ... I'm sure we all have different tonal adjectives haha). I'll likely need to start traveling when I'm closer to making a decision to try more examples in person.

I'll checkout myperfectpiano as well, I hadn't encountered them. First impression looks great.

Seems I got a couple questions about shopping over seas:


The honest answer is I just assumed it would be a lot of effort for a similar price in the end (especially shipping something this large and delicate), and didn't know where to begin. If the price delta is that large (very nice recording @OE1FEU, thanks for sharing!), I'm certainly open to considering - I'm in no rush. Would you mind elaborating on what "all that entails" (aside from the ivory issues mentioned). Are there go-to websites I should checkout to find sellers? Happy to checkout some other posts on that too if it's already a well discussed topic.


That's the one I already reached out to the seller to see if I can get some more information and photos. If everything checks out I might plan a trip down with a technician to consider, but it's the only example actively under $100k I've found, so that fueled this very long winded way of basically asking if that sounds too good to be true. I appreciate all the input you gave detailing your own journey and considerations, and I agree the economy certainly isn't helping sell luxury goods like 6-figure pianos. I'm hoping this is ultimately just a good opportunity to buy if sellers are under more pressure than usual, but I've never searched at this caliber before so what do I know ...


This is a wonderful perspective and mindset, two cents much appreciated! I definitely will need a better in-person side-by-side, I feel like right now my heart wants the 290 but my head wants the 280VC, but I haven't sat with them enough to really know. If you don't mind my asking, where were you able to find both available to test side-by-side, at a US dealer? Or did you have to travel over seas? At least the dealers around me don't seem to stock new instruments, and the used inventory is so low on these that finding either in a showroom is hard enough let alone both.

Also, what sort of room environment do you keep your piano in? Do you have a larger room / high ceilings / hard floors or more carpets and curtains? Right now the room I'm shopping for has high ceilings (~16') and is a large empty void with hardwood floors. I can only imagine it would be an echo-chamber as-is, so I'm planning some large rugs, curtains / drapes, and maybe even some acoustic panels on the walls, but I'm curious how others setup their 'piano room' I play cello as well and the reverb is actually quite nice for that, but I suspect it would be a bit much for a concert grand.

Anyway, thank you all again for the input, I look forward to the additional discussions here and I'll happily post updates as I continue down this very exciting (and slightly terrifying) journey!

Cheers!
-Eric

It's the Sauter semi concert grand.

I just purchased a 290 built in the 1960s, and recently restored. It’s absolutely wonderful, and I often find it hard to believe I actually own such a thing. But I played so many pianos before making the purchase, and as stated earlier in this thread, there is always a little doubt remaining on whether I made the right choice. I don’t think there is any way to avoid that with any major purchase really. I’d just focus on finding what you like and enjoying the search. I also found that avoiding the thought of “this is my forever piano” takes some of the pressure off and really makes you think about what you want in the here and now, rather than in the future. I had a 225 that I thought I would keep forever before this imperial came along so who knows!

Play as many examples as you possibly can, and don’t put any time pressure on yourself.

Great read. Thx for posting.

I am selling my 280vc in case you are interested going that route. It's a 2017, #7 in the production line and is spectacular. I am in CA, however...

Is this a change in the 280 VC now having maple in the rim? Or has it always had a maple rim?

I just received confirmation from that dealer that 280VC's moving forward will have maple rim. I believe prior to that it is/was spruce.

I guess this is in line with their goal of creating a piano that will project greater volume. Interesting to see how this changes the tonal profile.

Someone mentioned the word “pillowy” in reference to the Imperial and I would agree. The midrange is typically described as warm and round. But I think it’s a little muffled, maybe. Feels like there’s a lot of contrast between the lower, middle and upper registers.

When I hear the 280VC it sounds to me like they have tried (and succeeded IMO) to replicate the warmth and roundness of the midrange while still giving it more clear projection. The treble still sounds as sparkling as it ever did and the bass still booms.

This is all personal taste, of course. But I think the VC has a more balanced tone and more projection across the entire range while still retaining the character of the classic warm, clear bosendorfer sound.

The 280VC is how I’d spend my money.