Piano World Home Page Forums Our Most Popular Forums Piano Forum Steinway - partially rebuilt 1930s - What gives? $$

Hi All. New member here

So, I'm looking for a new piano for my daughter who's outgrown the Yamaha U3 upright that is almost 40 years old. I grew up playing that same piano lol. The response just isn't there and the keys are too light - leading to a very soft tone when she plays in competitions due to grand piano keys playing heavier. So we're looking for a used grand piano for her.

Relatively recent steinways - in the 2000's etc are way out of our price range - roughly 15 -20k max

So, from what I can gather it seems like I can get a partially rebuilt grand from the "golden age" - with new hammers, and action within that price range. I'm using model M's. Now what is puzzling is this.

1. For some or these golden age piano's they claim (and yes I know facebook etc is shady) that the soundboards have no cracks. If this was the case, surely it would be worth more than the 18k they are selling it for? I understand that new is better, but the above is theoretically a really good piano. If 18k is legit, then if it is already partially rebuilt, there's that 20k or so difference between a newer and the old golden age model. what eats up 20k? Or is that just depreciation.

2. Now, assuming #1, there may actually is a small crack in the soundboard. How big a deal is it? For 20k, should it be a deal breaker?

3. How much cost of the partial rebuild, goes into making the piano look new again? I ask because, i couldn't less about that.



Thanks for your time.

Hi and welcome to the forums. Looking fo a new grand piano can be such an adventure.


To answer your questions:

1. Cracks in the soundboard may or may not be a problem. There are many pianos out there with a crack in the board that does not affect the piano at all other than aesthetically. If it does have a crack 18k is too much, if it doesn’t, 18k for an M is on the high side unless it has been completely rebuilt. I have seen Steinway Ms from the 20’s for 3-20k depending on the condition.

2. For 18k, yes the cracked soundboard would be a dealbreaker but I don’t know enough about the piano you are looking at. Maybe it’s perfect otherwise and I am wrong but my gut is this should be a dealbreaker for that price.

3. Most of the major ($$$) repairs have nothing to do with the finish or aesthetic. Things to consider are the pinblock, new strings, new hammers, action regulation and repair, and condition of the soundboard. The action regulation and repair along with the hammers can get pretty expensive on old pianos because the action is compromised of organic material (wood, leather, wool) and these items degrade. It can be quite laborious refurbishing them which increases costs.


If you are not in a rush I would encourage you to try a bunch of different pianos and models. You have a healthy budget and can find a lot of pianos that will a better value and overall design than the Steinway M.

The M is not admired by many in the piano industry. Many feel it has design flaws that limit its ability to compete with other models. On the plus side it is also a piano, that due to its size, can be found most readily on the used market so don’t pay too much for one. $20k for one from the 20’s with a crack in the sound board is too much.

If you are set on the M be sure and have a technician inspect it. If something like the pinblock or action is bad you could be in for $10,000+ in repairs. I would be Leary of old pianos that cost more than 5k unless they have been restored by a reputable firm and have had an inspection done that passes to your satisfaction.

If you are looking for newer pianos in the same size as the M be sure to check out the Baldwin R, Mason & Hamlin A,

Here are a couple examples around your price range or less that would be substantially better than the Steinway M.

https://www.pianomart.com/buy-a-piano/view?id=47583

https://www.lindebladpiano.com/pianos/1997-baldwin-r-346291

Where are you located?

Nick

Hi Gumby74, and welcome.

I’d like to point you to a wonderful resource for piano shopping, and that is PianoBuyer.com. There is a wealth of information there. I’d probably start with this article: https://www.pianobuyer.com/post/piano-buying-basics . There’s a whole section on buying used pianos.

I don’t think it’s impossible to find a good used Steinway at your price point, but I think it will be a challenge and take time, and at your budget, I think your daughter will probably be better served by something else. The problem with pianos is that they do wear out over time, and even if it hasn’t been played much, the seasonal changes in climate can cause significant problems to the piano. If you live in a part of the country with pretty mild and stable year round climate, things are better. But if you live anywhere that has significant seasonal changes, these take their toll on pianos.

The problem with rebuilding/restoring is that these terms are not precise. The work that goes into one person’s restored piano is often very very different from another person’s, both in scope of work and in terms of the quality of the work. Unless you are very knowledgeable, I think it’s a bit of a minefield to try to sort this stuff out. Good rebuilding/restoration work is not cheap.

Steinway is a premium brand, and a good bit of your money will be going to the name Steinway. If it were me and I had your budget and I was looking for a grand piano for an advancing youngster, I would be looking mostly at used pianos that were not too old — around 20 years or less — from Yamaha or Kawai (you could add a few other names to this list, but these will be the ones you encounter most commonly, and you do want a piano from a good manufacturer). I’d try to get something that is at least 5’6”, and if you have the space for it, I’d definitely consider longer pianos. Condition does trump age — there will be pianos that are older than 20 years that are in better shape than some under 20. But I think 20 years gives you a starting point. And if you’re serious about buying a particular used piano, get it checked out by an independent (not affiliated with the seller) technician. This will probably set you back $100-200, but should help inform you if there are any red flags.

Finally, if you give us your geographic location, there are some forum members who are really good at finding pianos that may be good options for you.

New hammers and action is somewhat vague. What about the strings and pinblock? Case refinished? Hammer shanks and flanges? Recently partially rebuilt or 10 years ago?

I agree with those that think considering makes other than Steinway makes more sense with your budget. Examples like the two posted or used but much newer Yamahas or Kawais makes more sense. Don't be fixated on one brand. You should also consider new Chinese pianos like Hailun, Ritmuller, Cunningham which are probably available in your price range and have received many positive comments on PW.

Even if the Steinway soundboard has no cracks that doesn't mean it's in good condition.

Thanks!

I'm located in the New York City area.

I was unsure of the price breakdown of the cost of a used piano. And how much a soundboard with no cracks is worth.

One of the entries I was looking at had the following to say about the action - which seems to insinuate a full rebuild of this

ACTION:
Regulation: Poor
Voicing: Poor
Keys: No Ivory
Bushings: Poor
Pulley: N/A
Flange rails: Good
Hammers: Poor
Knuckles: Poor
Hammer flange cps: Poor
Rep cps, cushions, springs: Poor
Damper heads, wires, felt: Good
Underlevers: Good
Sostenuto: Functional, will need regulation Key end to under lever alignment: Good

This one in particular was 15k.


The one for 18k, in addition to a perfect soundboard, the old action and hammers were replace by brand new ones - Abel and Ronsen parts.
It's unclear whether or not it was a full rebuild or a partial replacement of the ones that needed work. This particular rebuilder - my daughters teacher, who was a concert pianist, has bought from.

Then there are ones around 12k where the people that are selling it may not know a whole lot about piano's themselves. There was an M from 1968, but not a whole lot of information around it.

Fyi, the links to the piano buying section - i get a 404 page not found error.


We don't have a ton of room in our house. We can squeeze an L in, but i don't want the entire living room to be a piano either

Try this

https://www.pianobuyer.com/

Have you considered "Boston" by Steinway/Kawai?

https://www.pianomart.com/buy-a-piano/view?id=52632

https://www.pianomart.com/buy-a-piano/view?id=53485

Practical Piano Valuation would likely be informative in this case.

You need more precise information before even considering playing it and having it inspected.
1. Just because there are no cracks in a soundboard doesn't mean it's in perfect condition. This is extremely unlikely for such an old soundboard.
2. What about the bridges and pinblock? Hammer shanks and flanges? Refinishing? When was the work done...recently or a while ago? Who did the work and how well was it done?

Anything is possible but for the price it's reasonably likely that the Steinway needs more work. My best advice is to not be fixated on getting a Steinway for the budget you have in mind.

Although I don't think there is anything wrong with the model M, a piano that's up to 6' is not going to make much difference in the layout of your living room.

Crown and downbearing are more important that a crack or two.

Your daughter is doing piano competitions and therefore obviously takes playing fairly seriously. I'll stick my neck out here and say firstly a Steinway M is not what you're looking for. It's not their best model by a long way. Tonally speaking the Yamaha C2X/GC2 and the Kawai GX2/GL40 are better instruments in my opinion. Now, it would be different if we're comparing a Steinway Model A to a Yamaha C3X or a Kawai GX3 but then that's why the Japanese makers have their premium lines anyway. In your situation since this piano is going to be a workhorse and have to take a lot of punishment, I'd look for something much newer and Japanese, or I'd look for a premium Chinese piano that I was going to keep for 5-10 years before moving on to something else.

American Steinways have gone through some really variable periods in the 20th Century. The Hamburgs have been a lot more consistent. Nowadays Steinway have unified their production methods so both factories are producing high quality instruments, but New York pianos 30 years old and older are just not as desirable as the Hamburg ones, and in many cases these Ms from the mid-20th Century are just not good instruments. They can be great when they've had a full rebuild and these days it's wise to think about putting a whole new keyboard in them since the older New York keyboard is smaller than every maker's standard keyboard used today.

If a Steinway is what you really want and you're determined, you'd be best to double your budget and go to a reputable dealer or rebuilder, otherwise you're just paying for the name. There's a reason these Steinways on FB market place are so cheap and it's that they're just not that much in demand because they're not very good. I'm not saying Steinway is not a good maker - they are. I'm saying these pianos are often in poor condition with all sorts of things that will actually stand in the way of your daughter's development.

As far as soundboards well we can have a debate regarding new soundboards vs old soundboards, but I think it's also important to take into account who did the work on the piano and soundboard. Sometimes the old soundboard is viable but it takes the right technician to repair it. You need a good tone, not just a good action, and if you have an uneven tone then your daughter will develop an uneven touch the same as if she was playing on an uneven action. Evenness in sound comes from the hammers but it also comes from inside the piano, meaning the soundboard, bridges, strings etc.

From what I can gather, and I've asked a lot of people who know about this, in order to get a good, playable used Steinway grand the minimum required amount you need to spend is about 30,000 before thinking about any restoration. This would mean sourcing a good Model A or B, but it's still a huge risk. How do you know without the right kind of inspection that the piano is any good? How long is the piano going to last in that situation? When you buy an old piano and start practicing on it for hours a day the deterioration is rapid.

I would recommend that if you must stay within the Steinway family of pianos, you should try to stretch yourself to a new Essex grand. If you don't have to stay within the Steinway family of pianos, you can look at things like Yamahas made in the last 20 years (there are some excellent ones out there), used Kawai pianos - a lot of pianists like the KG-2 if you have the right technician to service it - and then there are new pianos like the Cunningham 5'10 which of course has a list price but it's always worth talking to the dealer himself (and for Cunningham it is a him, he posts on this forum regularly, hey Rich) to see how they can accommodate your needs.

You might also consider just going into Steinways themselves and telling them how much money you have to spend, and asking what they can do for you. It might be a Boston upright, but that would be a huge improvement over the Yamaha U3 you're using. Come to think of it, a new Yamaha U3 is also in your budget.

Thank you all for your help! I'll post here with updates

To be fair, part of my steinway push is attributed to my Dad who also loves piano's and Steinway's in particular.

Oh. And I do have her teacher who is willing to come with us to look at potential pianos.

Ask a technician before you ask a teacher. Seriously. Most teachers really don’t know. I can attest to that as a person who moves in these circles. Also, when a student asks me to try a piano I refer them to a tech for the same reason.

I vote for something like this instead. 12-14 year old Mason & Hamlin model A. Listed for $24k but negotiate it down to $19k.

https://washingtondc.craigslist.org/nva/msg/d/alexandria-mason-hamlin-model-piano/7646193012.html

Or as others have said, an almost-new Yamaha or Kawai.

Yes that looks like it has potential to be quite good and fits nicely in the price range.

Shipping from Alexandria VA to the New York area will definitely add to the cost - but yes, a good condition 20 year old M&H A would be a very viable option.