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I appreciate that this is a non-specific query, but I was wondering how folks went about deciding on what their piano accompaniment is for pop/rock songs.
As we know, sheet music very rarely offers an accompaniment which matches the overall feel/groove -most of the time we see a chord progression, a simplified bass and a lead line which double what the singer sings.
I tend to listen to the original song, listen to the drum groove and try to match that (in some way) on the piano, filling in the vocal line gaps as i go.
Does anyone have any tips or suggestions about how they work out their own piano grooves when accompanying a singer?
Well for Pop/Rock I don't think you'll get much better than Elton John. Yes there are many better Pianists in terms of technique, even in the Pop world, but he is a very good all rounder and because he's been around so long there are some very good transcriptions available.
This site has dozens of transcriptions of his accompaniment style(s) on many of his classic songs, and some less well known ones. As well as many of his iconic Piano intros, and a few solos. Sure if you play these, you are going to sound like him, but you can adapt his style(s) and take what you want from it. I have!
Elton John was my first influence on Piano (about 45 years ago), and to this day I still include elements of his style, if I'm playing the right sort of material.
Cheers
Simon
Yamaha B3 Upright Korg SV2S (73)
ABRSM Grade 7 with distinction 2023 ABRSM Grade 8 with merit 2025 Now working towards Trinity ATCL diploma. Decent rock/blues Pianist, fake Jazz Pianist
Pearl & Yamaha Drums, with Zildjian, Istanbul and Meinl cymbals.
These three songs I recorded for students - none replicated the sheet music but I tried to capture the groove of the song. Would love some advice or alternative suggestions on accompaniment.
For those who study style, this is OK; however the overall sound is simply wrong. Playing the general secco staccato (muted ) is a less common effect of playing the guitar, and even less on the piano - which can be very clearly heard in E. John. This also applies to bass. The alternation of long and short sounds in a rhythmic comping resembles the use of a high hat.
By the way, if you play without a bass player, then the main bass register in left hand or low voice of a octaves playing is the third octave and part of the fourth.
Fatar, you’ve done a good job with these arrangements. As solo piano backing for vocalists there could be little cause for complaint, providing full and clear accompaniment without getting in the way. While there is clearly scope for improvement (I have some ideas but first I need to make sure I can play them!), my main criticism other than fine tuning the groove and opening out the arrangements with something more robust, would be that the performances sound sequenced (typed input or heavily quantised real-time playing), lacking the rough edges, nuance and imprecision that help to provide energy and excitement.
I’ll have a tryout myself at some stage and might (might!) put up a suggestion or two. Coming up with decent solo piano arrangements of most pop songs - attempting to emulate the feel of a full rhythm section - can be a hiding to nothing!
Fatar, you’ve done a good job with these arrangements. As solo piano backing for vocalists there could be little cause for complaint, providing full and clear accompaniment without getting in the way. While there is clearly scope for improvement (I have some ideas but first I need to make sure I can play them!), my main criticism other than fine tuning the groove and opening out the arrangements with something more robust, would be that the performances sound sequenced (typed input or heavily quantised real-time playing), lacking the rough edges, nuance and imprecision that help to provide energy and excitement.
I’ll have a tryout myself at some stage and might (might!) put up a suggestion or two. Coming up with decent solo piano arrangements of most pop songs - attempting to emulate the feel of a full rhythm section - can be a hiding to nothing!
Thanks mate.
Yeh, I basically play it in then quantise everything in Cubase, but I don't mind that so much (although understand your feedback in that regard). The bigger issue is more 'what' I'm playing. The Whitney one is probably the one I struggled with most.
If you get a chance I'd love to hear some alternative suggestions but yes, it is time consuming to find an arrangement that works.
Oh I should also point out that I'm using a very old Cleviano, so some of my input velocities don't quite match the patches in Kontakt. I've had to vel shift +14 in order to find some of the upper/brighter frequencies in the patches.
I agree with dire tonic. What you're doing sounds fine to me. I don't know the original songs/material, although I know Like a Prayer was a Madonna song (which I never listened to).
The 2nd one sounds like the sort of thing John Cale might play. I enjoyed that one (wanna dance with somebody) the most.
As for improvements and ideas I don't think I can add much to what you're doing. As I posted before, my suggestion would be to listen to professionals. There have been, and are, plenty of great singer Piano players over the years.
Well done, regardless.
Cheers
Simon
Yamaha B3 Upright Korg SV2S (73)
ABRSM Grade 7 with distinction 2023 ABRSM Grade 8 with merit 2025 Now working towards Trinity ATCL diploma. Decent rock/blues Pianist, fake Jazz Pianist
Pearl & Yamaha Drums, with Zildjian, Istanbul and Meinl cymbals.
Default Left hand pop styles 1 5 8___ or 1 5 10___ or 18181818
To make it hip: Tresillo rhythm pattern applied to any left hand style
Right hand acts as rhythm guitar and melody.
Explore over 1,200 piano arrangements of standards from The Great American Songbook, plus 65 jazz piano tutorials, at www.Patreon.com/HarryLikas. I served as the technical editor for Mark Levine’s "The Jazz Theory Book" and contributed to "The Jazz Piano Book."
I listened to your 3 recorded examples and they are very faithful to the original recordings. Well done. I personally am usually not so loyal to the original groove and tend to play it simpler and “fake it” my way. I’ve noticed many unplugged sessions by the original artists , Elton for example, tend to simplify and reduce the groove of a full band, it’s as if they reinterpret. This might be beneficial also if the singer is not a power singer. Also if the pianist has modest skills. And as a pianist I find it easier and funner to wing it rather than clone the original.
Explore over 1,200 piano arrangements of standards from The Great American Songbook, plus 65 jazz piano tutorials, at www.Patreon.com/HarryLikas. I served as the technical editor for Mark Levine’s "The Jazz Theory Book" and contributed to "The Jazz Piano Book."
Rintin makes some good points there. Quite correct about Elton, when he plays solo he doesn't try and recreate the full band arrangements, especially on up tempo numbers. There he uses the Piano like a percussion instrument (which of course it is), generating driving rock rhythms by a propulsive LH that accents the off-beats generally using rocking octaves.
Run by Elmo Peeler a professional who's played with many well known artists. He transcribes Piano parts from Pianists/Keyboard players in famous bands, or who are well known in their own right (mostly, but not all, in the Pop/Rock genre). They are very accurate and I've bought a few over the years.
Of course it's only any good if you can read.
Cheers
Simon
Yamaha B3 Upright Korg SV2S (73)
ABRSM Grade 7 with distinction 2023 ABRSM Grade 8 with merit 2025 Now working towards Trinity ATCL diploma. Decent rock/blues Pianist, fake Jazz Pianist
Pearl & Yamaha Drums, with Zildjian, Istanbul and Meinl cymbals.
Fatar760, I thought your arrangements were good. My only thought is that on Torn, if I were playing it, toward the end I'd look for a way to vary it a bit. Whether that was easing up on the sustain and sort of exploiting the back beat, or varying the right hand pattern. Of course, I don't know what the vocalist is doing and so.... Anyway I thought you did well.
And I never knew about Jason Zac. He's sort of a thesaurus of arpeggio comping patterns. Wow.
Thanks for the compliments everyone. If any of you have some recordings of the kind of changes you'd make (especially with the Whitney one), then I'd love to hear them. Often I'll Google these songs and try and find someone else playing them live on piano to see what they do - I couldn't find any such inspiration with these songs.
Originally Posted by RinTin
I listened to your 3 recorded examples and they are very faithful to the original recordings. Well done. I personally am usually not so loyal to the original groove and tend to play it simpler and “fake it” my way. I’ve noticed many unplugged sessions by the original artists , Elton for example, tend to simplify and reduce the groove of a full band, it’s as if they reinterpret. This might be beneficial also if the singer is not a power singer. Also if the pianist has modest skills. And as a pianist I find it easier and funner to wing it rather than clone the original.
I know a lot of musicians who do this, and I used to be one of them. In my experience though (and working with MT students a lot), singers and audiences prefer to hear a piano part that has semblance to the original - particularly with well-known riffs or grooves. It certainly IS more fun to wing it and be spontaneous, but unfortunately I tend to find it can throw people you're accompanying, or the listeners.
I do think it's different if you're the original artist of a song - you very much have licence to do whatever you want!
Originally Posted by indigo_dave
Fatar760, I thought your arrangements were good. My only thought is that on Torn, if I were playing it, toward the end I'd look for a way to vary it a bit. Whether that was easing up on the sustain and sort of exploiting the back beat, or varying the right hand pattern. Of course, I don't know what the vocalist is doing and so.... Anyway I thought you did well.
And I never knew about Jason Zac. He's sort of a thesaurus of arpeggio comping patterns. Wow.
The part I'm playing at the chorus is what the guitarist plays, which actually works against the back-phrasing of the vocalist - some of my students struggled holding their rhythm as the piano rhythm wasn't giving them much help! Thank you for the kind words - less sustain is always a good note!
Originally Posted by Simon_b
Hi
Rintin makes some good points there. Quite correct about Elton, when he plays solo he doesn't try and recreate the full band arrangements, especially on up tempo numbers. There he uses the Piano like a percussion instrument (which of course it is), generating driving rock rhythms by a propulsive LH that accents the off-beats generally using rocking octaves.
Run by Elmo Peeler a professional who's played with many well known artists. He transcribes Piano parts from Pianists/Keyboard players in famous bands, or who are well known in their own right (mostly, but not all, in the Pop/Rock genre). They are very accurate and I've bought a few over the years.
Of course it's only any good if you can read.
Cheers
Yeh, this is exactly what I want to do - improve my arrangements so that they have more percussive elements to it. I really struggled with the Whitney one of this, and would love some suggestions how to make it rock more like the original .
fatar760--I've tried many times to adapt rock songs to solo piano, and mostly failed, tho some work ok.
The reason I failed is, I can't get the effect of bass, drums, and rhythm guitar into one hand, the left. Be aware that guitar-based rock, and I mean really hot chuggin rock, is based on fast, repetitive loud sounds, which would mean fast, repetitive loud left hand. Some people can do this for hours, but not me.
It can be approximated with 2 hands, but then you need another hand to riff over it.
fatar760--I've tried many times to adapt rock songs to solo piano, and mostly failed, tho some work ok.
The reason I failed is, I can't get the effect of bass, drums, and rhythm guitar into one hand, the left. Be aware that guitar-based rock, and I mean really hot chuggin rock, is based on fast, repetitive loud sounds, which would mean fast, repetitive loud left hand. Some people can do this for hours, but not me.
It can be approximated with 2 hands, but then you need another hand to riff over it.
Hiya,
Well I'm not trying to make rock/pop songs for solo piano - I'm talking about accompaniment. So I use both my hands to be 'the band'. Would love to hear your thoughts on the tracks I made in the Dropbox link above
Coming up with decent solo piano arrangements of most pop songs - attempting to emulate the feel of a full rhythm section - can be a hiding to nothing!
Yes, this is not an easy task, in the rhythm section the piano is not the leading instrument. In other words, the piano must combine elements from drums, bass and rhythm guitar. I recommend starting with the rhythm guitar, which lays out chords in rhythm, and if necessary, adds bass.
Studying rhythm guitar strumming in pop clarifies a lot about what to do on the piano. . For the first time in 1970, when I transcribing a recording of Chicago band, it was necessary to adapt the guitar part to the piano; later songs of "Jackson Five"; and after a while, it became, of necessity, a routine.
