Piano World Home Page Forums Our Most Popular Forums Piano Forum turn of the (last) century Heintzman grand

Putting this out to the smart piano folks to noodle: Is there any chance that a Heintzman grand (5'6") built between 1900-1901 could be a good buy? Assuming it was in excellent (to me that would imply a total recondition at some point) and a technician not paid by the seller approved. Asking price currently is $6000 US.

The seller first told me they didn't know the age but said it was built in Canada. I questioned this because they put the condition as "like new" and any new Heintzman's are built in China. So I asked for the serial number, and did a search. When I told the seller that in fact the piano would be over 100-120 years old based on that serial number, they reacted with surprise, and stated they bought at Tom Lee 14 years ago. They also claim that their technician has called the piano "pristine" and of a quality comparable to Steinway pianos. Hmmm.... too good to be true, or worth taking a look?

Thoughts, please!

Jo

Before getting it evaluated by an independent technician, is this from Piano Buyer.com of any help?

Heintzman

Made in China Heintzmans started appearing in the late 1980s/early 1990s and none made in Canada since the Canadian factory closed in 1986.

Regards,

Heintzman was apparently very highly regarded in Canada, and equated to Steinway in terms of reputation and stature. But, there are apparently also different incarnations of “Heintzman,” so be sure you’re dealing with the right one (brothers/cousins/sons/etc). A knowledgeable Canadian technician could probably help you in this regard, so having it inspected is definitely the right course of action if you’re seriously interested in it.

I have played more than a few Heintzmans over the years from pre and post China manufactured days and I am a fan of their sound. Their quality seemed good. I would not rule out this one if it was manufactured in China and 14 years old or so. If it is a rebuild it will depend on the quality of the restoration but either way that asking price seems high. I had a student of mine buy a Heintzman upright(made in China) many years back and they paid considerably less than the pianobuyer listed price (like 60%) if I remember correctly. I don’t think they sold very well and I am not sure if their still in business as the Heintzman website has not been active for over a year now I believe and I am not aware of any dealers that are left in the GTA(Ontario). Then again I am not one of those smart piano folks you mentioned but just a failed organist who loves the piano but not noodles very much. 🙂 Good luck - hope you enjoy the process ...

Thanks for all the replies, just to clarify: The seller reports they bought it 14 years ago but in fact it does seem to be over 120 years old and was built in Canada based on the serial number. Though potentially "pristine shape." Not being sold on Piano Buyer.

This might change some of the replies and opinions....

Its condition would be the most important consideration, so you'll want to have it inspected.

I'd be intrigued if I were in your shoes.

Just went to play this piano. Very interesting. Looked and felt like original Ivory keys, a bit faded on the keys, but the cabinet and all of the components inside looked very new. The serial number again puts it between 1900-1901 most likely. It felt prettty nice, lighter touch than my current upright and pretty quick action. Out of tune for sure, but that's a given as it's been in a carpeted basement for some time. No sticky keys, some dust inside. To me looks like it will need some work but not in the shape one would expect for over a century old, so I am thinking it's been rebuilt.

The owner is now very keen to sell, as the house has sold and is empty. He gave me the technician who looked it over who also happened to be our piano technician as well, so I've contacted him and am waiting to hear back. My thought is that it may still be a poor buy at that age, but it did sound and feel pretty nice. I didn't immediately fall in love but I was also in a stranger's basement during a pandemic after work with a mask on, trying to rush through enough notes to get a sense of condition of the piano. I did get a feeling that we'd be friends with time, however.

I offered to pay the technician for their honest opinion, even if they weren't able to get out to see the piano again prior to purchase, as long as their memory was sound. Price has come down to $5500 US, this is a 5'6" heintzman model F I believe from last turn of the century. Weird anachronisms though, i.e. the cabinet and etching of the name on the front look exactly like those made currently out of China, not the turn of the century based on my research, but the serial number clearly puts it in that age group. I am wondering if this is part of what happens with a rebuild? Not surprisingly, there is not a lot of good photographic evidence of these turn of the last century parlor or baby grands from Heintzman. If anyone knows of a good link to see some where I can compare the styling to try and authenticate the age, I'd be grateful.

Take care, and thanks for any thoughts you've got...

jRT

If it was refinished it may have gotten an “updated” decal.

Is it possible that the "real" serial numbers and "stencil" serial numbers just happen to overlap, therefore it very well could be a modern stencil?

If it turned out to be a "modern" one, would that affect your decision?

Anything is possible, I suppose, and I've seen episodes of "Antiques Roadshow", or "Pawn Stars" where someone went to great lengths to modify/add patina to an item to make it look old when it wasn't. But the real ivory keytops, as joturn mentioned, would certainly indicate a turn of the century piano and not a newer stencil piano.

Looking forward to seeing pictures of the Heintzman grand.

Rick

That is very true Rick!

The reason the Heintzman name lives on (on imported pianos) is because it was so highly regarded. But a like-new rebuilt 100 year old Heintzman is a different piano than a new import, and certainly would be to you if you want the former and not the latter. FWIW, a new one is not likely to have ivory keys, at least not from the factory, as Rickster mentioned above.

You really need to have the concrete feedback of someone who will be able to tell. This tech you mentioned...you should ask him directly. And, btw, if he services 3 or 4 pianos a day, he may not have detailed inspection-level recollection of this piano (he might; he might not).

Also, I assumed you were in Canada but now realize that perhaps I shouldn’t have. If you are, “Heintzman” should be pretty familiar to an experienced tech. In the US, perhaps not.

Ah, I missed that part about the ivory keys. Yes, of course it couldn't be modern if it had real ivory keys. Unless the ivory keys could be faked by using multiple parts to get that line across the keys, but that is so extremely unusual that it would spark a totally new conversation if that were the case.

Thus looking forward to the pictures, also.

Hey folks,
Thanks for the comments, just got off the phone with the technician who was looking at it for another buyer. Turned out he was also our piano tuner. Good guy, he took meticulous notes when he looked at this piano back in November for the interested buyer who in the end did not go for it. He was also puzzled by the look, thinking it looked more like the newer ones out of China, but had some features (i.e. serial number) that made it seem old. He noted "Bolduc Montreal" mark on the inside and looked this up, and they apparently do high end rebuilds, mostly Steinways. It looks like this one was one of those. Explains the anachronistic feel of it a bit. The keys are a bit yellow and I didn't properly assess if they were real ivory.
Anyway, the technician who I believe is very trustworthy states the piano is in "tip top" shape, esp considering HE last tuned it for the seller in 2009. Needs a good tune for sure but that's a given. I had played a 1981 Kawaii 48" upright belonging to a piano teacher that I'd really liked the sound of also and he knows that piano fondly as well. Finally, at the end of our chat, I nailed him down with my question of which piano would intrigue him the most if he was the buyer. He went with the Heintzman.

I'm calling the seller back now to see what we can manage. He is having it moved day after tomorrow and I feel I didn't get enough time to be properly introduced.

And here is my burning question to you folks: when it comes to rebuilt pianos, if it is indeed a quality rebuild, does the expectancy for longevity of the piano change such that you would say that such piano now has a new birthdate, i.e. the one of the rebuild?

THoughts please

Jo

Bolduc is pretty well-known in the piano trade (I'm surprised your tech had to look them up). They do full and partial rebuilds, and also sell materials, so just because something in the piano has "Bolduc" on it, doesn't necessarily mean that they rebuilt the piano. You might want to contact them and ask them if they did (https://pianosbolduc.com/manufacturer/?lang=en).

sorry, I think I misinterpreted that... he knew BOlduc, but was looking up HIS notes about what he discovered about the piano. Also, can anyone tell me how to post these photos on my desk top to my thread?
I was going to try and call Bolduc tomorrow... seller is actually having the piano moved to his apartment on the mainland day after tomrorow as it needs to vacate the house. He's arranged movers. I won't get to play it again but I'm wondering if I should just go for it? it did play well even without being in tune. I'll use your link and contact Bolduc now. They must have record if it was a full rebuild.
Thanks,
JRT

It's hard to know how to advise you. Is the piano gonna be on a freighter from Hawaii to California, or just across a bridge from PEI? In other words, is it "lost" forever once it's moved? (likely not)

Sellers often try to create a sense of urgency. The fact of the matter is that pianos don't sell quickly.

I'd be curious why the people who hired the tech to look at the piano before you didn't buy it. Did he give you a sense of its value? I'd also be reluctant to piggyback on other people's efforts (so-and-so said such-and-such). You should have someone who represents you look at it for you. Assess its quality and value.


The future utility of the piano will be a combination of the rebuilt core's original quality (i.e. does it have good bones, as the saying goes), the quality of the rebuild work done to it, and how long ago it was done.

This piece at PianoBuyer.com says the pianos currently produced in China use Bolduc soundboards:

https://www.pianobuyer.com/brand/heintzman-co/

So, again, noting Bolduc inside isn't necessarily indicative of a rebuild (or a full rebuild) by Bolduc.

Also, DecalsUnlimited has 16 different decals for Heintzman, so it's odd that a rebuilder would use a modern one on a century old piano. People sometimes use modern decals when they're not appropriate, but, to some extent, I'd think it reflects on the decisions and workmanship of the rebuild.

Anyway, I don't mean to be a wet blanket. If it's a genuine 100 year old Heintzman, in pristine rebuilt condition, it could be a real gem. I'd just suggest you be certain what you're buying before you shell out 5 grand.