Piano World Home Page Forums Our Most Popular Forums Piano Forum Looking at the Piano Business through the Marketing Eyes

Because you boorishly obsess on this "question" to the point of hijacking just about every thread to "demand answers" to your rather obvious questions. Because you are not sincerely seeking information, but seeking only to demean and attack. Because you seem to have little to do other than harass a particular participant here. And because nothing that you ask about matters one iota.

Hope this helps.

J. Mark,

I suppose putting me on trial is a strategy but it nevertheless leaves open legitimate questions to an individual who has a lot to say about the industry but is not so open about his product. If one is going to carry the vanguard for transparency they should be consistent. It's as simple as that.

J. Mark, what planet are you on?

Fathertopianist has shown himself to be an eloquent writer and someone whose posts are always thoughtful and poignant.

He asked a simple question to a person who uses this forum to spread his obnoxious propaganda.
Choose your battles, but man are you ever wrong on this one.

This is an image/metaphor that will stay with me for a very long time. "Delicious irony," indeed. I don't know whether to laugh or cry.

J. Mark, lord knows there have been times I've disagreed with honkytonk, but on this one I think he is right: you're picking the wrong battle here.

This is a thread on marketing issues in pianos. TW, for better or worse, is the most vocal proponent of an internet marketing model on the forum, and he has used this thread to argue vigorously in the defense of his business model. Fair enough. But once doing so, he opens the door for pointed questions about his model--also fair enough, and relevant to the thread. And I think it's not only fathertopianist who wishes that TW would answer those questions.

p.s. I think Ax's idea that you could call P$$ and get the answers to questions about the E11enburg is a wonderful one, should you be so inclined... your description of the conversation would have a cachet of credibility that perhaps some of TW's more vehement detractors would not.

Terry,

You have no pitch? That is the only thing you have done on this thread. You have driven your website down our throats to the point of sickening... Why would I single out Story & Clark and Gulbransen.. Well, let's see, I have had the S&C franchise for many years and they also stencil in Gulbransen as well. I can buy 'em. I can sell 'em. But it takes an army of techs to keep them right. That, I guess would fall under my EXPERIENCE with these two lines. As far as other brands, there is very few out there that I have not looked at seriously. My criteria is different than yours. I want to sell the piano that will best serve the customer and be able to look them in the eye and promise to service the piano and guarantee them lasting satisfaction. If someone wants to buy a DG grand (S&C), I would sell the piano for what it is. An inexpensive piano that, for the money will look pretty in their home and play providing they are not of the higher end capability. That is facts Terry. No pitch. I have stated facts about pianos that I have the ability to buy and sell. Have you? I have access to every single brand name that you can get, but I don't prostitute them out like a $ 3.00 hooker.

You have insulted me sir. I have stayed very close with describing the internet companies in general and not singling you out. From what I see, you spend more time defending your way of doing business than you do to do your business. Why? Do you need a job? Jordan Kitts is a great company, I know Bill McCormick personally, he can show you what "real retail" really is.

And to father, there is no real virtue in the internet sites. I have tried to enlighten, not slam, but the statements made on this thread by Terry has been non-convincing and utter balogna for the most part.

Ellenberg, isn't that somewhere in Germany? I don't know, but I don't claim to aither.

With all of that said, I would hope that you give this thread a rest Terry and move on to the forum on How to be a Bottom Feeder and Get Rich from B&M dealer's efforts. If there isn't one, take the post you have posted here and start it up.

With total disgust,

Mr. Haught,

I want to disregard everything you stated on your last thread and just focus on the one I've quoted. If I have insulted you, or offended you by my responses then please accept my sincere apology. I was merely trying to have an honest exchange with someone who I felt was being sincere, which has been very rare on this forum as you can see.

Again I hope you will accept my apology if I insulted you with my response.

Sincerely,

Terry,

If you would like to hash out the differences between my opinion and yours, I would be glad to have a sincere, constructive discussion. I just feel that my attentions on this thread and in this forum have been pure and for the best for all concerned. I do not post things that I do not have experience with and that I do not believe. Now, that said, let me make it very clear that my opinions are just that, my opinions. They are based on 30+ years in this business and thousands of retail companies, both in the piano business and other businesses that I represent on a day to day basis in my marketing firm.

My days working on the retail floor have been retired with my sale of the majority stock in Broadway Piano last year. My wife's family is still in the business and I have been a consultant and recently had to step in and manage my father-in-law's company while he was not able to. He is back and I am back to just handling his promotional needs and merchandising needs. I love the piano business. ALL of my post are sincere and I sincerely accept your apology.

Best Regards,

Good to hear. With that out of the way let us continue our conversation.

I don't believe you are being fair to certain piano manufacturers. The brands you mentioned recently are not tier 1 pianos admitedly, but to suggest they are going to fall apart after you get it home is hardly the case and I believe you know it.

In regards to internet v/s B&M I understand you don't like anyone selling and advertising pianos outside of their physical location. I happen to believe there is nothing wrong with it. I believe it brings competition to the table, which in turn is good for the customer. If being competitive in the market place makes me a bottom feeder in your eyes than so be it.

On the issue of me spending time to articulate my position in regards to a thread you started I guess I'm guilty. The fact is though I own an internet based business. When I see people on the internet speaking against my business or type of business I am going to respond. Would you allow me to come and stand in front of your B&M store with a bull horn and signs without responding? I mean com'on.. I would never have heard of this place if B&M dealers were not on here bashing me personally, my business, my products, and in some instances even my faith. Please don't misunderstand I'm not asking for sympathy, but don't expect silence when so many 1/2 truths, inuendo's, and speculations have been raised by our competitors.

In regards to experience. Well I have some too. Let me tell you what I have experienced. Before starting my own company I worked for a traditional B&M retailer. I was rather good at what I did. So much so I earned enough money to start my own business, but I digress. As a salesman for this B&M business we were an authorized dealer for Yamaha, Young Chang, Samick, Kawai, Roland, Kurzweil, Suzuki, Korg, Baldwin, and several stencil brands by YC & SMC. We also kept a very good supply of restored Steinway, and Bechstein pianos on the floor. Before going out on my own I worked as a sales person for this dealership for almost 7 years. In that time I became their top salesman out of 4 others. Before I went to work there I was in sales and marketing in a completely different industry, although I have played piano all my life, and come from a family with a history of music. What I saw and experience in the piano retail industry was unlike any other I had seen. I went to several manufacturer sponsored sales trainings to learn how to (IMO) BS.

One that sticks out in my head to this day is what the SMC rep at the time said at sales training in Charlotte, NC. Out of respect for some I will only say his name was Frank H. This ought to be enough information to verify for those who are in the know. Anyway during this class he proceeds to show the back of an upright piano. I believe it was one of the K&C FP models. He goes on to say, "when a customer comes in your store show them these buttons on the back of this piano, and tell them. On our ____ model piano the K&C company puts on 8 sound buttons. These sound buttons are what gives the K&C model XYZ it's rich sound". Now what he was referring to was the screws attached to the sound board in the back of the piano. The idea was the customer would leave and ask the competitor down the road "how many sound buttons does your piano have", and of course the other dealer would looked confused therefore causing the consumer to loose confidence in him. This was just one of several "tricks" that were taught at some of these manufacturer sponsored sales trainings.

So this is just one of many "experiences" I had in your B&M world. Others were the notion of not being able to quote prices on the phone, being extremely guarded on advertising prices on certain brands, not being able to advertise below a certain price on other brands. And a whole host of other just bogus "rules" that this industry has decided to impose on itself.

The fact is those protocols that you are advocating now was hurting the industry then, and that was before the internet. I believe change is good, and long over due.

So there you have it Mr. Haught. Maybe this will help you understand my perspective better. I don't expect you to change your mind, but I'm glad you are willing to share. Oh and by the way Ellenburg is not a place, he was a person. But I guess that's for another time.

That was about as uncalled for as anything I've seen around here. For you to cast aspersions on FTP's legitimacy is pretty ostriched-headed. Anyone who has read his posts knows him to be just as Honkytonk described him.

Sheesh...

How about if you just show us one E!!enburg? Preferably a view including a plate with the name cast in it, or a soundboard with the decal on it.

uhhhh okay.

http://www.pianosuperstore.us/store2/index.php?main_page=infopages&pages_id=6

http://www.pianosuperstore.us/store...uct_info&cPath=9_2&products_id=4

Good night.

Nope, doesn't cut it. A fallboard decal is easy to fake or photoshop, and the soundboard decal doesn't say "E!!enburg" anywhere on it.

Also, the fallboard decal in the purported customer review is different than the images on the E!!enburg product page.

Since the concept seems to be so hard for you to grasp, here are examples of what would pass for irrefutable:




Get it?

OT,

You sound so sure of yourself. Would you care to make this interesting? I love how you and FTP so boldly pontificate on this forum about what you assume is true. Has it ever accured to you that pianos made in this particular factory does not stamp the plate? Maybe it has and your answer to that is..."see, see, it's a stencil". Okay, what about the other "famous" brands made in the same factory that has the same plate?

So let's make this interesting. When I get to the office tomorrow I will send you pic's of 3 different pianos, by three different companies, with three different serial numbers? When you see the same type of plate what then will be the collective beef? My spelling and grammar?

Give me a break! I got a thousand dollars to make this interesting. Are you willing to own your words, or you just want to continue to speculate with other socks and schills behind an avatar. My name is on what I am saying, and promises made on my site are bonded and insured. Are you that confident?............................. Didn't think so.

Oh yeah don't forget it is spelled Ellenburg. And my name is Wilson, Terry Wilson. Make sure you spell these right so people can search later on about what some anonymous avatar said about who.

You avatars not only don't want to own what you say, but don't want it to be found by others. Typical...

Edit

For better or for worse, the topic has shifted from Mr. Haught's initial contentions to TW's marketing tactics. Oh well.

FTP's question about E11enburg's origins has become a mantra, the repeated chanting of which summons up all the other transparency issues many of us have raised over time. The actual E11enburg saga seems quite insignificant to me (except for its humor value).

If anyone thinks that there is any rich manufacturing tradition (piano or otherwise) behind the E11enburg name -- a tradition that somehow endows these pianos with their greatness -- I've got some 'water view' boggy bottomland here in James City County to sell you.

I have HAD the personal chat with Terry, and it was a perfectly pleasant experience. E11enburg is indeed just a stencil name. What a shock. I think Terry said something about a family member (uncle, perhaps) with that name and I don't think I'm breaking any huge confidence by saying that (though he may justly reprimand me if I have). Is this true? Who knows. I have speculated that the name comes from the nearby town of Ellenboro NC.

Mr. Haught and others deride the stencilling of no-name (or out the back door) Chinese pianos into Euro-American sounding machines with "rich German heritage." There is indeed a rich piano industry tradition of doing this and it certainly didn't start with TW and the internet model. The E11enburg case is just such a rich mine -- a mother load so to speak -- of hyperbole and deception, as are many of the other techniques PSS uses to advertise its wares (and delivery process).

The fact that TW doesn't just come clean on origins adds an edge to the discussion, but it doesn't change anything fundamental. There is a lot wrong in the sales and marketing biz. His example of "sound buttons" is a good one. I don't know if the example IS true or not, but to any consumer out there over the age of 10 it RINGS true, which speaks volumes about how most of us treat 'salesmanship' with great caution (and frequent contempt).

Terry gets a lot of criticism here, and much of it is quite justified in my view. But he's hardly alone in pushing the envelope on shading the truth. And deception is a very different issue from publishing prices, isn't it.

WOW, another thousand dollar wager, this place is becoming a casino. But just remember, if you lose the bet you end up in exile like Norbie, is it worth losing all this free advertising over it.

Is Norbert in Exile? I thought he was in Germany. We'll make him post pictures when he returns so as to prove he was in Germany...

Disclaimer: This post was meant purely as a light-hearted response and in no way should be construed as a defense or pointedly sarcastic remark.

Would you rather be Norbert in Hamburg, sampling the culture, music scene, and liquid refreshments...... or would you prefer to be here in this thread sampling for the umpteenth time the fruits of this obsession with one stencil brand that borrows from no other maker's storied past?

One of the links that Mr. willson posted earlier.

http://www.concertpitchpiano.com/Links.html

states that Ellenberg is made by Dongbei in China.

I've never been there so I don't know if it really is, but it sure doesn't sound like a secret to me.

to me the name placed on the piano is irrelevant unless it's one of the obvious name brands.

I don't think many of the names mean much.

Incidentally, I agree that the purpose of the questions have nothing to do with honestly gaining information.

It appears to me that Mr. wilson has answered most questions quite candidly, the ones he doesn't answer appear to be for business reasons. Something like the refusal of any B&M company to answer questions about their actual prices. People would like them to answer those questions too but but they don't, obviously for business reasons. That is certainly their right and I probably wouldn't either. Mr. Wilson has the same right to decide what he will respond to and what he won't.

Makes sense to me.