Piano World Home Page Forums Our Most Popular Forums Piano Tuner-Technicians Forum Passes and Pitch Raising

I pitch-raised a piano that was about 50 cents flat in two passes - first to get everything close by starting the temperament section at about 10 cents sharp, then a final tuning.

I've got another old spinet to work on that's at least 75 cents flat, and almost sound a half-step flat in some places - one pitch raising pass before the final tuning or two?

Thanks.

-S-

I don't think it matters 😉

FWIW I use a method that corrects as I go. It's slower than rough passes but I can sometimes do a pitch raise in one pass.

Depending on the condition of the spinet and your willingness to want to replace broken strings, I might not pitch raise it that far. I recently pitch raised and tuned a piano 50 cents in two passes, but it was a newer piano and the strings, etc. showed no corrosion and everything felt fine as I nudged the string flat before tapping it sharp.

I "took stock" of the piano yesterday when I met it. I did a touch-up tuning, spending about 20 minutes fixing the worst offenders, mostly fixing unisons and raising a few notes in the middle that had gotten flatter than the rest. A bit more background for anyone interested:

My work yesterday was a donation of my time to a facility for seniors in our town. Interestingly and nicely for me, the program director was relatively new, knew nothing about pianos except that a couple of her residents had complained that this one was grossly out of tune.

Turns out the program director is now going to budget 2 tunings per year for me - so I will get paid after all, just not for this one but I will have a regular client moving forward. The piano I worked on is a recent donation after an old, and apparently badly broken piano was thrown out - the piano seems to be quite an important thing to the program director and to the residents.

When I heard how flat it was and about the complaints about "a few keys," I decided that touching up the existing tuning would give me a chance to feel what the instrument felt like, and the pins felt good and raising them above pitch didn't feel at all like strings were going to break. The plan is that I will come back in February or March and do the pitch raise tuning, for which I won't charge extra since it won't be in her budget, so that one will be a partial donation on my part, and then I will do regular tunings at my regular rate after that.

I got a report this morning that one of the regular piano players at the facility gave two thumbs up after playing the piano last evening. Mission accomplished.

This piano seems like one of those that, while old, didn't get played much - everything seems in good condition.

@Mark Cerisano, please say more about your method. Even when tuning an upright or electric bass - only 4 strings - or a guitar with only 6, I still make multiple passes when it's well out of tune. I've never found a workaround to that.

@terminaldegree, I think two passes before the final one would make me feel better. I'm think that I'll do something like raise A to maybe 10 cents flat and work from there, and by the time I'm done, I'll likely still be 20 cents flat or so in the middle so I'll take a second pass and aim a little sharp, and then a final pass. 50 cents-is seems, at least in my very limited experience, an OK amount for a single pass of pitch raising.

-S-

Once a piano is 50 cents flat or more, it's in blind pitch raise territory for me. After a quick pitch evaluation so I have a mental map of the pitch, I hold the tuning hammer with two hands, no mutes, no playing, and turn the tuning pins an amount experience tells me is right. In 4 minutes, that 100 cent flat piano is a lot closer to A=440, and I do a first pass pitch raise from there.

Learn to do it by first tuning one string aurally, then move the other two pins by feel, not listening. Once you are good at that, do the whole note without listening. Big time saver on those pianos not tuned in 10-30 years.

Also a time saver in northern climates where the middle drops 25 cents in winter - quickly pull the middle up without listening.

If the strings are in good nick and the piano isnt too old, i spend 15/20 mins on a pitch raise, just get some tension on the strings, dont spend any time listening for beats, Tunelab is worth every penny for the pitch raise function alone.

If you get comfortable with EDT-assist pitch adjustments, that is well within the range possible for a solid two-pass tuning. (I return to them a year later and find them just as close as other yearly tunings, so don't feel a need to recommend a follow-up after a few weeks. I warn that it might not be as stable and to call earlier if they notice. Have only had a handful of calls in 30+ years!)

Some machines have an upper limit to how far over pitch is 'safe' for each section of the piano - others, you need to keep an eye on the overpull amount and adjust as you go when you are faced with a piano 100 cents flat or more...

Ron Koval
Chicagoland

Old pianos with rusty strings, i usually dont go over pitch which means at least 3 passes and a follow up tuning in 3 to 6 months.

I second Ron's comments.

michaelopolis, my life is too short now, at 59, to be giving old pianos with rusty strings three passes and a followup. If it's an old piano with rusty strings, is it even worth a pitch raise? Doesn't it have lots of other stuff wrong with it anyway?

If it's to come up to pitch, I warn the client of the risks, and do the overpull. In any case, how much more likely is it that the string will break in an overpull, than in a pull up to pitch? Careful application of Protek CLP at rendering points, and off we go!

I've raised pianos that were 400 cents low on a couple of occasions. But I declined to attempt a piano that was 800 cents, yes, eight semitones, flat, which you can here hear (and I promise I am pressing all the correct keys). https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fGW-CP_pOXs

I use an ETD for the first pass and tune by ear for the second pass. I always do two passes, even if the piano isn't far away from where I want it. The tuning always feels more solid to me and I can do the two passes in an hour. If I'm raising more than 20 cents I might need to do a third pass, depending on how the first pass goes. It just depends on how close the ETD gets the piano to where I want it. 50 cents would probably be three passes, 100 cents would probably be four, maybe three if I get lucky and the piano does what I want it.

What about over-pull, Lucas? How far sharp would you pull the notes of a piano that was 200 cents flat? You wouldn't 'nudge them up' a little closer to A440 each pass would you? I take it your initial pass is an over-pull?

My first pass is using the over pull with an ETD, even if the piano is close to where I want it. For a piano that is 200 cents flat I would just pull it up or around 440 in one or two passes, depending on the pianos condition. Then once its up in pitch I can do an over pull pass followed by a final pass. There's no reason to me to do an over pull for something 200 cents flat because the over pull would be pretty extreme. I would be hitting the max amount of over pull on every note. If it were to work, I don't think it would land really close anyways, that's a big change in pitch. Sometimes on a 30 cent over pull my octaves in the middle are still all over the place, so I have to do a second pass to straighten that up before the final pass. The second pass might just be in the middle.

Would you all really overpull a piano 30 cents sharp of A440? Really? I'd figure that would be a rather long afternoon of string replacement on that old, neglected spinet! I had a conversation with a tech who suggested that might be a great way to cause false beats.

Oops sorry, I typed that wrong.. I meant on a 30 cent pitch raise..

Okay - that makes more sense...
You can please send some Culver's to atone for your error, except they ruined everything by no longer selling fried chicken!

Yes when doing a pitch raise, my ETD can have me over pulling 20-25 cents sharp. My limit is 30 cents. It doesn't always mean strings will break. I have had strings break as soon as I moved them. (yes I lowered the pitch first). I have also seen pianos drift 50 cents sharp at the break on a Kawai UST-9. No broken strings.

My limit is 20 cents overpull, but I give the treble break area a bit extra cause it tends to drop more. If strings are rusty, I'll test-tune one string on C4 thru C8. If any break then, or after, it gets tuned 100 cents flat.

It works for me.

I remember reading a while back (I think it was on the Verituner User's Forum) about another way of overpulling with an ETD. Rather than setting the overpull at 15 cents sharp or whatever, set the pitch to A441 or A442 if you are doing a major pitch raise.
Edit: I think he tuned the bass at A440, the tenor at A441, and the treble at A442.

Another thing to consider is that when raising the pitch an extreme amount, it might be better to increase the tension in a somewhat disorganized way, rather than just starting at A0 and tuning each string of each unison working left to right. (bridge roll)

Edit: I misspoke in my post. I should have said 15 percent overpull rather than 15 cents

Thank you for the reminder about that. Although I don't tend to use a temperament strip when tuning, that's a good reason to leave it packed in my bag.