Piano World Home Page Forums Our Most Popular Forums Piano Forum kawai us-60 piano versus Yamaha U3-F

Hello,

I've had a chance to play a Japan refurbished 1982 Kawai US-60 and a same aged used well maintained Yamaha U3 F. Unfortunately, they were not in they same location for head to head comparison.

Wondering if you folks had any experience/opinions on these two. Yamaha boasts that it has only 1 plastic part (for note repetition). Kawai says their parts are nylon in the action. The U3 sounded great on its own. The US-60 was not yet tuned at the store, but the base tones seemed less full/warm. I was told that tuning and voicing will improve that.

BTW, how does the Kawai US-50 differ from the US-60? They both seem to have 52 inch strings.

Thanks so much, in advance.

Sanfyman

Please search "Gray Market" and/or "Grey Market" on this forum. The pianos you are comparing have likely spent the last 27 years in a music school in Japan. "Refurbished" is a nebulous term and often amounts to having the cabinet polished and the hammers filed. IMO the useful musical life of Asian pianos is about 35-40 years. These pianos are in the last third of their life span and it will not be a musical and trouble free as the first 2/3's.

Pianos don't last forever. Pianos don't get better with age.

My recommendation is that you compare new pianos in your budget range. If you must buy used, search for pianos made for the North American market and that are ten years old or less.

Thanks very much for your good advice, Marty. I will buy your book and Fine's book and supplement before doing anything.

Maybe this is in your book, but which (brand) pianos are made for the North American market?

Thanks,

Sandy

If you are looking at new pianos, most manufacturers today are seasoning for destination, this is not an issue. 20 year old Yamahas and Kawais may or may not have been. Yamaha has a place on their website to punch in a serial number of a used instrument and it will say yes or no.

Part of the issue with gray market used is the moisture. A more significant issue, IMO, is the wear factor of institutional use. Evidence of this is frequently covered up cosmetically. It takes a trained tecnician to survay an instrument to determine actual wear.

I really learned a lot from your book, Marty. Thanks. I am now very wary of older used uprights.

Plus, after realizing that my house has no appropriate place for a 50 inch upright, and I cannot afford a new one, I'm back to looking at digital pianos.

I'm trying to decide among the Kawai CA 51 and the Yamaha CLP 370 and CLP 340. The 370 may be out of my price range. I like the wooden white keys and the Kawai piano samples and voicing options, as well as the price.

I wish I could hear them back to back (or mano a mano).

Any thoughts from anyone about any of this will be greatly appreciated. Maybe I should place this on a different thread.

Thanks for all your help.

Sandy

I have a US-50. It was a good piano when I bought it at 13 years old. But now it needs more work than it's worth. (BTW, I'm not sure how it differs from a US-60.)

Anyway, Marty offers some good advice. I would add that old upright pianos are generally not a good choice. An old, very fine quality grand piano might be worth the price of restoration, but uprights are usually not. You say the US-60 is 27 years old? Too old, I think. Keep looking. You'll probably want something much newer. Many good 10-year-old pianos can be had for perhaps $3000. But it's not clear whether that's within your budget.

Also, you said that you have no place for a 50" upright, and you'd like a digital instead. Why is that? Most console digital pianos are about the same width as an upright piano ... maybe just a couple of inches wider. A digital will be about 21" deep, while a full-size upright will be a few inches deeper. And height generally doesn't matter. (Or does it?) I guess I don't understand your point.

If you're serious about a DP, there's plenty of help in the "Digital Pianos - Synths & Keyboards" forum.

You mentioned the CLP340, CLP370, and CA51. I've not tried a CA51 ... couldn't find a Kawai dealer here. I own a CLP240 ... the newer 340 is quite similar, but should be bit better (4 level sampling). People seem to think that the 370 is overpriced, unless you really want the wooden keys (which you do, right?) That, and better speakers are the only differences between the 370 and 340.

Have you tried them? I'd be very interested in knowing how the feel of the wooden keys differ on the 370 differs from the plastic keys on the 340.

PLEASE don't buy a digital - little resale value, poor tone and touch, and you will tire of its synthetic tone and lack of dynamic range and harmonics within days.

Response to Mr. Horwinkle:

I would spend $3000 for a newer (used) Yamaha U3 or Kawai US 60, but from my limited experience I believe that is an unrealistically low price for either. I would also have to know that the used upright didn't come from a music lab (even if "refurbished") where it was pounded on for many hours per day, reducing its true sweet lifespan. BTW, my friend bought a Yamaha U-3 used from a local family who originally bought it new in 1982 from a local reputable dealer in WI. Her piano technician/tuner has cared for it all those years and felt it was worth the $6500 she paid for it. Too steep for me.

A 50 inch upright, after measuring again, COULD fit against one wall in my living room. It can't go upstairs (the weight), nor in our little first floor dedicated computer room. If I were to buy a digital, it would go upstairs in my "music room" next to my computer, where my Casio DP is now. It's so much lighter.

I tried the Yamaha CLP 370 wooden (white keys) keyboard and the Kawai CA-51. Both are very nice, but I like the texture and the feel of the keys a little better on the CA 51. The 370 feels less slippery to me than the lesser CLP models 340 and 330. It is my understanding that on the CA 51, at least, the wooden keys are longer than the plastic, affording one better touch sensitivity. I think I am sold on a wooden keys keyboard now.

ChrisVenables:

Have you played any of the Kawai CA series, 51, 71, or 91, or the Yamaha CLP 370? If so, what do you think of their piano samples?

I'm not much concerned about resale value of a DP. I'm 65 years old, and an intermediate student who sometimes flirts with advanced stuff. I agree that the harmonics will not be there in a DP. The CA 51 has some interesting voicing capabilities (Virtual Technician) and Yamaha has its own as well. If I really wanted the best harmonics, wouldn't duplexing be the way to go? Won't that raise the cost of a piano? It would have to be a grand.

I very much appreciate both of your responses, and if you have more to say, I will be eager to read your posts.

Looking forward to hearing from you,

Best,

Sandy

Hello Sandy

Let's just say we USED to sell digitals alongside acoustics!

I admire the digital manufacturers' marketing - it's brilliant.But I don't admire the product. I haven't played a Kawai digi for 2 or 3 years, but know the CLP range well. I would only suggest someone buys a digital if they have a very limited budget, say under £1,000 - as the sort of piano you would be offered at that price probably would not perform as well. (Generally, and my opinion only)

Regarding tone, expression and dynamic range: If the digital hasn't got a spruce soundboard, (and not many have!) then it won't sound like a piano in your home. The more you play the digital, the more you will recognise its shortcomings. Using the sustain pedal, play a crashing 2 handed chord on a decent piano and then do the same on a digital. Listen to the sustain. Try again quietly on both instruments - not only will it sound softer, but tonally different. A piano also has so much more mass, depth of tone and the ability for all 250 odd strings to vibrate at the same time. It's real and a beautiful piece of furniture too.

Regarding duplex, it's not always all that necessary to create more harmonics, as the top couple of octaves are undamped anyway. So even a cheap upright has more natural harmonics than 100 digitals in unison.

Upright or grand? - just go out there and play, preferably new until you find one you fall in love with. Grands have a better feel and response as long as you're looking in the 5'8" + length. Uprights, you need a minimum 121cms, or 4'00" to produce a decent bass.

Enjoy your retirement and studies with a real piano - you won't be disappointed!