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Posted By: peterws Pedal Authenticity - 04/10/21 10:20 PM
I don't think any digital does this properly, do they?
When you press the loud pedal, you'll get this whoosh! of the damper resonance which is great in those digitals which have it, and the VSTs too.
However, when you depress the damper pedal, it also releases the damper bar with your feet, so your fingers are freed to play the note without the extra load of this damper on it. It becomes lighter to play, and will sound louder if you don't adjust for it.
Indeed, you can on an acoustic, exploit this turn of affairs, and create a nice lilt in your playing; a periodic swell to the music which is part of the piano experience. A necessary part, some might add.
I know of no digital that achieves this, either by mechanical means (which would lighten the keys) or by electronic means (which would increase the volume somewhat) to achieve a similar result when the pedal is depressed.
Even the Yamaha N3X only gives you a calibrated feel to the action of a grand; no mention of the other.
Am I right, or horribly wrong?
Posted By: navindra Re: Pedal Authenticity - 04/10/21 10:25 PM
Originally Posted by peterws
However, when you depress the damper pedal, it also releases the damper bar with your feet, so your fingers are freed to play the note without the extra load of this damper on it. It becomes lighter to play, and will sound louder if you don't adjust for it.
Indeed, you can on an acoustic, exploit this turn of affairs, and create a nice lilt in your playing; a periodic swell to the music which is part of the piano experience. A necessary part, some might add.

The Kawai Novus NV10 does exactly this. It feels pretty authentic as far as I can tell and it definitely impacts my playing in a similar way to what you described.
Posted By: Gombessa Re: Pedal Authenticity - 04/10/21 10:54 PM
+1. This is exactly what the NV-10 and NV-5 do. The Novus hybrids have the full damper bar assembly mechanically linked to the damper pedal, and also individual damper weights on each key in a full back action assembly (minus the wire raisers and felts of course).

When you play with the damper pedal down, all they keys go lighter weight. When the damper pedal is up, you can feel the engagement point when the keystick contacts the damper weights and start lifting them. And if you drop the damper pedal with keys down, you feel the damper weights in your fingers as they drop back onto the keys.
Posted By: peterws Re: Pedal Authenticity - 04/10/21 11:12 PM
Thanks for that, guys! And they're the only two to do this? I'm surprised, particularly since this valuable aid to piano enjoyment is not replicated in electronic form at least, even on higher end digitals.
On a silent piano, I imagine the effect would also translate to the digial reproduction too because the mechanics will still operate and lighten the keys.
I think I could tolerate a silent Kawai in my little office . .
Posted By: mmathew Re: Pedal Authenticity - 04/10/21 11:17 PM
>> When you press the loud pedal,

What's this loud pedal?
Posted By: Gombessa Re: Pedal Authenticity - 04/11/21 12:21 AM
Originally Posted by peterws
On a silent piano, I imagine the effect would also translate to the digial reproduction too because the mechanics will still operate and lighten the keys.

I think so. A silent piano would drop a silent rail to block the hammers but wouldn't affect the damper bar.
Posted By: pianogabe Re: Pedal Authenticity - 04/11/21 06:50 AM
Originally Posted by Gombessa
Originally Posted by peterws
On a silent piano, I imagine the effect would also translate to the digial reproduction too because the mechanics will still operate and lighten the keys.

I think so. A silent piano would drop a silent rail to block the hammers but wouldn't affect the damper bar.

Can confirm, there is no difference in action + damper mechanisms between silent and acoustic modes, except that in silent mode the hammers are stopped by a bar just before they would hit the strings. Since the latter happens after let-off, you cannot feel this.
Posted By: U3piano Re: Pedal Authenticity - 04/11/21 08:13 AM
Any dp without a real damper mechanism could easily adjust volume or slightly soften the velocity curve when pressing the sustain pedal to give the impression of slightly lighter keys. Of course this should be a feature that can be turned off, as not everyone will want that.
Posted By: KevinM Re: Pedal Authenticity - 04/11/21 08:40 AM
I've noticed when playing an acoustic grand I quickly notice that I can half pedal, probably not well because of inexperience but something I can play with and I find almost impossible with the pedal unit on my MP11se. But also the same on a couple of DPs.

Has anyone been able to play with half pedalling to their satisfaction on a DP, which DP worked for you and also perhaps which virtual piano?
Posted By: peterws Re: Pedal Authenticity - 04/11/21 08:44 AM
Originally Posted by mmathew
>> When you press the loud pedal,

What's this loud pedal?

Aww, come on! smile Some of us aren't so posh . . . .
Posted By: peterws Re: Pedal Authenticity - 04/11/21 08:51 AM
Originally Posted by U3piano
Any dp without a real damper mechanism could easily adjust volume or slightly soften the velocity curve when pressing the sustain pedal to give the impression of slightly lighter keys. Of course this should be a feature that can be turned off, as not everyone will want that.

It shouldn't be turned off; it's part of the piano. Volume adjustment perhaps. But the question that bothers me is . . .why haven't they done this a long time ago? I could almost design such a simple electrical mechanism myself using the back of a fag packet . . .
Posted By: U3piano Re: Pedal Authenticity - 04/11/21 09:23 AM
Originally Posted by peterws
It shouldn't be turned off; it's part of the piano. Volume adjustment perhaps. But the question that bothers me is . . .why haven't they done this a long time ago? I could almost design such a simple electrical mechanism myself using the back of a fag packet . . .

I feel this way about many products I encounter, (usually physical products.) For example pianoteq, you are modartt and take your modelled piano serious, I would think. It is modelled so you don't have to bother with samples, and then you don't take advantage of this fact and implement a modeled version of "repetition samples" to make your vst sound way more authentic/less sterile? (This is when you have the sustain pedal pressed down and you hit the same key twice or more, on an acoustic piano it sounds slightly different/more "stringy".) Vsl's vienna imperial has repetition samples for this. I would think this would be very easy to implement on a modelled piano. Come to think of it, probably not too hard to implement a bit of modelling for this feature on a sampled piano (without extra samples) either.

Quite often products frustrate me a bit because they could be much better with obvious and easy changes. I guess some company's don't actually use their own products, or I'm just that innovative. smirk Actually I tend to modify things to my liking whenever I see the possibility.
Posted By: KevinM Re: Pedal Authenticity - 04/11/21 09:25 AM
The VSL synchron pianos adjust the velocity applied when the loud/sustain (everyone happy 😛) pedal is depressed. I am not certain how well this mimics the feel and behaviour of an acoustic.

With an acoustic your fingers will notice that with a similar physical force the key will move more quickly with the sustain pedal pressed. You get a physical feedback as well as the audible feedback.
Posted By: HZPiano Re: Pedal Authenticity - 04/11/21 09:31 AM
Originally Posted by KevinM
Has anyone been able to play with half pedalling to their satisfaction on a DP, which DP worked for you and also perhaps which virtual piano?

Hello,

I am not classically trained so much as to consider myself proficient in half-pedaling at any level, yet, I have a setup that is satisfactory to my taste in this regard.

I solely play Modern U (by VI Labs) which has an excellent way to set MIDI pedal behavior to your liking, and can handle up to five pedals and/or parameter controls like wheels/knobs/sliders.

Of course the hardware is an important component as well; unfortunately the pedal functionality of my Roland FP-10 is insufficient for any refined pedal behavior. So I chose a third-party decent piano-like continuous pedal, and concocted (as in contemplated, designed, soldered, tested, changed, soldered again, you get it) a direct interface from pedal to PC.

All of this works a dream (to me at least). In a later stage, I may be able to share details so that more of us can benefit from this approach. This will take more time, though.

Cheers and happy pedaling,

HZ
Posted By: KevinM Re: Pedal Authenticity - 04/11/21 09:47 AM
Originally Posted by HZPiano
Originally Posted by KevinM
Has anyone been able to play with half pedalling to their satisfaction on a DP, which DP worked for you and also perhaps which virtual piano?
Of course the hardware is an important component as well; unfortunately the pedal functionality of my Roland FP-10 is insufficient for any refined pedal behavior. So I chose a third-party decent piano-like continuous pedal, and concocted (as in contemplated, designed, soldered, tested, changed, soldered again, you get it) a direct interface from pedal to PC.

All of this works a dream (to me at least). In a later stage, I may be able to share details so that more of us can benefit from this approach. This will take more time, though.

I think it is the DP hardware that is the problem at least for me. There is something very different in the feel of the pedal when lifting something up and down as in an acoustic piano than working against a spring. I find the necessary control for half pedalling very difficult on my MP11se pedal unit so inevitably my foot is just resting with the pedal not pressed or the pedal fully down.
Posted By: peterws Re: Pedal Authenticity - 04/11/21 10:02 AM
Originally Posted by HZPiano
Hello,



I solely play Modern U (by VI Labs) which has an excellent way to set MIDI pedal behavior to your liking, and can handle up to five pedals and/or parameter controls like wheels/knobs/sliders.

Of course the hardware is an important component as well; unfortunately the pedal functionality of my Roland FP-10 is insufficient for any refined pedal behavior. So I chose a third-party decent piano-like continuous pedal, and concocted (as in contemplated, designed, soldered, tested, changed, soldered again, you get it) a direct interface from pedal to PC.

All of this works a dream (to me at least). In a later stage, I may be able to share details so that more of us can benefit from this approach. This will take more time, though.

Cheers and happy pedaling,

HZ

And THIS is what we need to hear! Manufacturers, Get on with it! We will accept no more the tasty morsels thrown from the rich man's table!. We are not dogs! Ye shall be judged by your responses ye scurvy knaves!
Commendation to Kawai; thou may well be saved from ye judgement to fall . . . .
Posted By: mmathew Re: Pedal Authenticity - 04/11/21 10:52 AM
Originally Posted by peterws
Originally Posted by mmathew
>> When you press the loud pedal,

What's this loud pedal?

Aww, come on! smile Some of us aren't so posh . . . .

I seriously didn't know :-( And I looked it up after this reply...

I came to piano learning via the digital route, and then touched acoustics only when in the store to buy a digital, so I had no idea that the damper pedal is also referred to as loud pedal.
Posted By: mmathew Re: Pedal Authenticity - 04/11/21 10:59 AM
Originally Posted by peterws
Originally Posted by HZPiano
Hello,



I solely play Modern U (by VI Labs) which has an excellent way to set MIDI pedal behavior to your liking, and can handle up to five pedals and/or parameter controls like wheels/knobs/sliders.

Of course the hardware is an important component as well; unfortunately the pedal functionality of my Roland FP-10 is insufficient for any refined pedal behavior. So I chose a third-party decent piano-like continuous pedal, and concocted (as in contemplated, designed, soldered, tested, changed, soldered again, you get it) a direct interface from pedal to PC.

All of this works a dream (to me at least). In a later stage, I may be able to share details so that more of us can benefit from this approach. This will take more time, though.

Cheers and happy pedaling,

HZ

And THIS is what we need to hear! Manufacturers, Get on with it! We will accept no more the tasty morsels thrown from the rich man's table!. We are not dogs! Ye shall be judged by your responses ye scurvy knaves!
Commendation to Kawai; thou may well be saved from ye judgement to fall . . . .

Speaking of pedals and Kawai.

A 3 pedal unit came with the Kawai VPC1. It performed great and the only complaint I had was that the unit kept slipping gently behind when the pedal was being used. Which I fixed by putting it on some rubber casters. A friend of mine has an SL88 Grand keyboard + pedal unit. I swear that this pedal unit is the exact same as the one that came with Kawai, look & feel, weight, construction - everything, except the logos on the top (the SL's logo was better, Kawai's seemed like a stuck label).

Sourcing from same manufacturer, I suspect Fatar? Sorry for the OT!
Posted By: peterws Re: Pedal Authenticity - 04/11/21 12:17 PM
Originally Posted by mmathew
Originally Posted by peterws
Originally Posted by mmathew
>> When you press the loud pedal,

What's this loud pedal?

Aww, come on! smile Some of us aren't so posh . . . .

I seriously didn't know :-( And I looked it up after this reply...

I came to piano learning via the digital route, and then touched acoustics only when in the store to buy a digital, so I had no idea that the damper pedal is also referred to as loud pedal.

Maybe I learnt something today. My dad always shouted for me to take my foot off the loud pedal. He probably thought it was the accelerator or something. And he bought the bl**dy thing in the first place though I never reminded him of this . . . ..
Posted By: MacMacMac Re: Pedal Authenticity - 04/11/21 12:27 PM
Does your piano also have a gear shifter and a clutch? smile
Posted By: KevinM Re: Pedal Authenticity - 04/11/21 01:13 PM
Originally Posted by MacMacMac
Does your piano also have a gear shifter and a clutch? smile

Funnily enough I was thinking about how half pedalling is like feeling the clutch. Searching for just the right position while pressing down with the foot to get the desired result.
Posted By: peterws Re: Pedal Authenticity - 04/11/21 01:42 PM
Didn't think clutches wre still on cars anymore. We're forced into the automatic gearbox stuff now; they have no idea. A car without a starting handle can never look right.
Posted By: Gombessa Re: Pedal Authenticity - 04/11/21 03:22 PM
Originally Posted by mmathew
Sourcing from same manufacturer, I suspect Fatar? Sorry for the OT!

Yes, you hit the nail on the head, it's an outsourced Fatar unit, and generally considered not very durable/reliable.

It's been replaced with a Kawai-made optical sensor unit on the newer DPs like the MP11SE, and would be a nice upgrade if it were also done for a VPC-2 wink
Posted By: navindra Re: Pedal Authenticity - 04/11/21 04:44 PM
Originally Posted by U3piano
I feel this way about many products I encounter, (usually physical products.) For example pianoteq, you are modartt and take your modelled piano serious, I would think. It is modelled so you don't have to bother with samples, and then you don't take advantage of this fact and implement a modeled version of "repetition samples" to make your vst sound way more authentic/less sterile? (This is when you have the sustain pedal pressed down and you hit the same key twice or more, on an acoustic piano it sounds slightly different/more "stringy".)

Pianoteq 7.3 includes this:

Improved repetition model benefiting all acoustic pianos.

I have no idea if it's the same thing that you're talking about, but 7.3 feels improved across the board.
Posted By: peterws Re: Pedal Authenticity - 04/12/21 08:17 AM
Originally Posted by navindra
Originally Posted by U3piano
I feel this way about many products I encounter, (usually physical products.) For example pianoteq, you are modartt and take your modelled piano serious, I would think. It is modelled so you don't have to bother with samples, and then you don't take advantage of this fact and implement a modeled version of "repetition samples" to make your vst sound way more authentic/less sterile? (This is when you have the sustain pedal pressed down and you hit the same key twice or more, on an acoustic piano it sounds slightly different/more "stringy".)

Pianoteq 7.3 includes this:

Improved repetition model benefiting all acoustic pianos.

I have no idea if it's the same thing that you're talking about, but 7.3 feels improved across the board.

Sounds like it might be. I've re-d/l 7.3 on the 'puter I'm writing this on, so I can soon find out. I hope so; that'd be a darn sight more than the icing on the cake imo and would obviate the need to harress Pianoteq on their forum!
Posted By: U3piano Re: Pedal Authenticity - 04/12/21 10:14 AM
Originally Posted by navindra
Pianoteq 7.3 includes this:

Improved repetition model benefiting all acoustic pianos.
.

When was this version released? When i tried it, a couple of weeks ago, nothing audible seemed to happen with repeated pedal down notes.
Posted By: Ctopher7 Re: Pedal Authenticity - 04/12/21 09:53 PM
Originally Posted by peterws
I don't think any digital does this properly, do they?

Roland claims to do this - at least somewhat:

https://www.roland.com/ca/products/rg-3f/
Posted By: Gombessa Re: Pedal Authenticity - 04/12/21 10:28 PM
Originally Posted by Ctopher7
Roland claims to do this - at least somewhat:

https://www.roland.com/ca/products/rg-3f/


Do you mean the Progressive Damper-Action Pedal?

Quote
The RG-3F features Roland’s new Progressive Damper Action pedal mechanism, which closely replicates the pedal response of acoustic pianos. When you first start to depress the damper pedal it offers lighter resistance, but as you depress it further, the resistance increases just as it would on an acoustic piano when the dampers start to move up from the strings. This new design also enables more accurate “half-pedaling” response, where the depth of the damper pedal allows subtle control of the decay of the tone. Thus, the Progressive Damper Action Pedal offers the sensitive and expressive pedaling response required by the most demanding pianists.

I didn't get the sense that is what peterws was asking about. I think he was asking if any digital pianos actually adjusted the weighting of the key action based on the damper pedal position. All the manufacturers have claims/brand names for "realistic" or "grand expression" or "grand touch" pedal feel, and they all really just amount to a simple spring; none of these have any affect on the keys themselves, other than the Novus line.
Posted By: MacMacMac Re: Pedal Authenticity - 04/12/21 10:41 PM
Has "pedal authenticity" become the new "pivot length"? smile
Posted By: mmathew Re: Pedal Authenticity - 04/12/21 10:43 PM
Originally Posted by MacMacMac
Has "pedal authenticity" become the new "pivot length"? smile

I think it's the new "key downweight" cool grin
Posted By: peterws Re: Pedal Authenticity - 04/12/21 10:45 PM
Originally Posted by Gombessa
Originally Posted by Ctopher7
Roland claims to do this - at least somewhat:

https://www.roland.com/ca/products/rg-3f/


Do you mean the Progressive Damper-Action Pedal?

Quote
The RG-3F features Roland’s new Progressive Damper Action pedal mechanism, which closely replicates the pedal response of acoustic pianos. When you first start to depress the damper pedal it offers lighter resistance, but as you depress it further, the resistance increases just as it would on an acoustic piano when the dampers start to move up from the strings. This new design also enables more accurate “half-pedaling” response, where the depth of the damper pedal allows subtle control of the decay of the tone. Thus, the Progressive Damper Action Pedal offers the sensitive and expressive pedaling response required by the most demanding pianists.

I didn't get the sense that is what peterws was asking about. I think he was asking if any digital pianos actually adjusted the weighting of the key action based on the damper pedal position. All the manufacturers have claims/brand names for "realistic" or "grand expression" or "grand touch" pedal feel, and they all really just amount to a simple spring; none of these have any affect on the keys themselves, other than the Novus line.

A decent progressive damper pedal for a digtal might well help to achieve a sort-of result. My own conclusions are that heavy sympathetic or damper resonances are called for, to make this work, as on an acoustic.
One very rarely holds the damper pedal down on an acoustic; the cacophany of noise demands control.
Digitals rarely if ever have such pronouncd resonances.
Pianoteq however, has. And when they get wacked up, you'll hear much the same cacophany and you'll back off the throttle as they might say.
This is a partial solution and perhaps as good as it gets; unless a genuine grand or upsight action is in the mix, the key weight will not change. If it is then sure as heck the volume of the piano plus resonances will escalate to a frightening level!
Only then will the thing be a hybrid! (disclaimer: "imo")

..
Posted By: mmathew Re: Pedal Authenticity - 04/15/21 11:48 AM


I remember seeing this RD-2000 video and I was thinking about this thread.
I had forgotten everything about that video save this:

The guy uses the tone designer to raise all settings up to the max levels, including String Resonance, Damper Resonance etc. etc. and I believe he used the default tone (V-Piano). Without pressing any of the keys, he pressed the damper pedal, and immediately a sound was heard, which he said was the sound of the strings vibrating as they were released by the damper. (around 6:40 - 6:55 timestamp)

I tried to do this with the P515 and I wasn't able to hear anything - maybe I'll crank the volume up.

- I'm assuming all acoustics do this?
- Do upright acoustics also behave such?
- Do all/most DPs have this behavior built in to the onboard sounds?
- What about VSTs?
Posted By: peterws Re: Pedal Authenticity - 04/15/21 12:29 PM
Acoustics do. Pianoteq does, very well! I like to hear it whoooshh! without any strings pressed., or even with them.
Posted By: HZPiano Re: Pedal Authenticity - 04/15/21 12:46 PM
Hello,

Originally Posted by mmathew
- What about VSTs?

VI Labs' Modern U certainly and very satisfactorily does this, and I love that. I'd imagine there should be more VSTs doing so for sure. Even the free 'Salamander piano' (which plays in sforzando) I started out VST-ing with last fall, has such an effect.

Modern U even makes these pedal sounds velocity dependant: gently activating the pedal gives subtle whoosh and mechanism sounds, depressing and/or releasing the pedal quickly/suddenly most satisfyingly 'clunks' the pedal 'mechanism'. I guess this needs your pedal to be of the continuous type.

This week I further refined my speaker setup, now I experience even more 'realism' with my piano, including these pedal effects. When my setup is 'finalized', I think I'll dedicate a new thread to share my rather enjoyable findings.

Cheers and happy pedaling,

HZ
Posted By: terminaldegree Re: Pedal Authenticity - 04/15/21 01:09 PM
The “whoosh” sound of the dampers clearing up off the strings is something all acoustic pianos do, though it’s something that better builders and technicians try to minimize. The damper type, its regulation/travel, and the relative hardness of the damper felt will all have an effect on its extent.

Given how the sound propagates from an upright piano, you’re unlikely to hear or notice it. On a grand piano, it is audible and increasingly so based on how fast you push the damper pedal. I do use it as an effect to excite the strings before the fortissimo opening chord in the Grieg piano concerto, though you’re not going to hear that above the orchestra.
Posted By: mmathew Re: Pedal Authenticity - 04/15/21 01:23 PM
Thank you HZ and Peter.

Originally Posted by HZPiano
Hello,

Originally Posted by mmathew
- What about VSTs?

VI Labs' Modern U certainly and very satisfactorily does this, and I love that.

...

HZ

Wow; nice to know! Is Modern U sample based? If then, more wow!



Originally Posted by HZPiano
Hello,
I think I'll dedicate a new thread to share my rather enjoyable findings.

HZ

Now I'll await that thread. That will be the one thread which rules them all :-)


Originally Posted by HZPiano
Hello,

Cheers and happy pedaling,

HZ

You know I first thought of biking, right? laugh
Posted By: HZPiano Re: Pedal Authenticity - 04/15/21 02:55 PM
Hello,

Originally Posted by mmathew
Wow; nice to know! Is Modern U sample based? If then, more wow!

Yes, it is. Every and all fine detail is sampled, and in a musically wonderful quality--at least to my taste.

Originally Posted by mmathew
Originally Posted by HZPiano
I think I'll dedicate a new thread to share my rather enjoyable findings.
Now I'll await that thread. That will be the one thread which rules them all :-)

Well, well... no pressure then... 🙄

Originally Posted by mmathew
Originally Posted by HZPiano
Cheers and happy pedaling,

HZ

You know I first thought of biking, right? laugh

That... euh... just figures 😀

Cheers,

HZ
😉
Posted By: Falsch Re: Pedal Authenticity - 04/15/21 03:15 PM
Originally Posted by peterws
I don't think any digital does this properly, do they?
When you press the loud pedal, you'll get this whoosh! of the damper resonance which is great in those digitals which have it, and the VSTs too.
However, when you depress the damper pedal, it also releases the damper bar with your feet, so your fingers are freed to play the note without the extra load of this damper on it. It becomes lighter to play, and will sound louder if you don't adjust for it.
Indeed, you can on an acoustic, exploit this turn of affairs, and create a nice lilt in your playing; a periodic swell to the music which is part of the piano experience. A necessary part, some might add.
I know of no digital that achieves this, either by mechanical means (which would lighten the keys) or by electronic means (which would increase the volume somewhat) to achieve a similar result when the pedal is depressed.
Even the Yamaha N3X only gives you a calibrated feel to the action of a grand; no mention of the other.
Am I right, or horribly wrong?

The NV-10 has a damper mechanic, even though it technically wouldn't need it.

When you press the damper pedal, it makes the Whoosh! sound, but the keys also get lighter because it lifts actual dampers. So, the NV-10 would be able to recreate this effect of "damper up == louder music" (when using the same touch).

It was (one of) the reasons why I chose the NV-10 instead of the N1X, because I felt like Yamaha would only add this to the N1Y (or whatever) in another 8 years. The NV-10 felt more complete to me. (The one missing thing is shifting the keyboard when pressing the Una Corda pedal... but that is something that's actually -completely- unnecessary in a digital, and only serves to retain the quirks of an acoustic piano.)
Posted By: Gombessa Re: Pedal Authenticity - 04/15/21 03:21 PM
Does Pianoteq or Roland actually model the whoosh? Most DPs nowadays have some kind of pedal noise (whoosh or clunk) but it's typically just a "throwaway sample" like key-off/hammer noise. The half-pedal capable DPs will usually modulate the noise so that it's quieter or silent with smooth, slow pedal presses, and louder with sudden presses and releases, which better simulates an acoustic.

I've heard pianists are trained to adjust their pedaling technique to minimize these noises, particularly for concerts/recordings.
Posted By: johanibraaten Re: Pedal Authenticity - 04/15/21 03:33 PM
Originally Posted by Gombessa
Does Pianoteq or Roland actually model the whoosh? Most DPs nowadays have some kind of pedal noise (whoosh or clunk) but it's typically just a "throwaway sample" like key-off/hammer noise. The half-pedal capable DPs will usually modulate the noise so that it's quieter or silent with smooth, slow pedal presses, and louder with sudden presses and releases, which better simulates an acoustic.

I've heard pianists are trained to adjust their pedaling technique to minimize these noises, particularly for concerts/recordings.
According to modartt Pianoteq model mechanical sound in the modern grands but uses samples for the historical instruments.
Posted By: mmathew Re: Pedal Authenticity - 04/15/21 03:39 PM
Originally Posted by Gombessa
Does Pianoteq or Roland actually model the whoosh?

If you watch that video, between 6:00 and 7:00 the guy demonstrates how the Roland produces the sound of all strings vibrating, when the damper is pressed. No keys struck, just press the pedal, and you can hear the sounds of the strings as they are released by the damper. I won't call it a "whoosh" it's like a tone...

I was pretty (and pleasantly) surprised a pure modeling system like the Roland has modeled this behavior.
Posted By: mmathew Re: Pedal Authenticity - 04/15/21 03:46 PM
Originally Posted by Gombessa
pedal noise (whoosh or clunk) but it's typically just a "throwaway sample" like key-off/hammer noise. The half-pedal capable DPs will usually modulate the noise so that it's quieter or silent with smooth, slow pedal presses, and louder with sudden presses and releases, which better simulates an acoustic.

I'm separating my response into a different post. Because I believe there are two things we are talking about modeling/reproducing:

- the sound of all the strings vibrating (a tone like sound) when the strings are released by dampler
- the pedal noise (the whoosh and thud)

The Roland models both.

I am curious to know how well DPs, VSTs and hybrids do both...

It sounds (pun unintended) like the NV-10 does this quite beautifully. I found the pedal noise (from owning a CA79 previously) to be too clean, I mean very very clean - that it didn't sound natural.
Posted By: Gombessa Re: Pedal Authenticity - 04/15/21 03:59 PM
Originally Posted by mmathew
Originally Posted by Gombessa
Does Pianoteq or Roland actually model the whoosh?

If you watch that video, between 6:00 and 7:00 the guy demonstrates how the Roland produces the sound of all strings vibrating, when the damper is pressed. No keys struck, just press the pedal, and you can hear the sounds of the strings as they are released by the damper. I won't call it a "whoosh" it's like a tone...

I was pretty (and pleasantly) surprised a pure modeling system like the Roland has modeled this behavior.

I've watched the video but it's hard to tell how the effect is being generated or how "real-time" it is. I've played a lot of their older partly-sampled SN DPs and they have a similar "woosh" effect when the damper is pressed quickly; in those pianos I think the woosh was just a sample.
Posted By: mmathew Re: Pedal Authenticity - 04/15/21 04:15 PM
Originally Posted by Gombessa
I've watched the video but it's hard to tell how the effect is being generated or how "real-time" it is. I've played a lot of their older partly-sampled SN DPs and they have a similar "woosh" effect when the damper is pressed quickly; in those pianos I think the woosh was just a sample.

I'd love to hear from some RD-2000 owners the answer to this.

From the video, it sounded real-time. As soon as he pressed the pedal, the tone of strings vibrating was heard. The pedal noise (whoosh/thud) couldn't be heard, but I suspect we would if we were in the room/connected via headphones.
Posted By: Gombessa Re: Pedal Authenticity - 04/15/21 04:36 PM
The "woosh" and the "loom of strings" string-vibrating effect are oftentimes synonymous, it depends on how aggressively the pedal is released and how much of the effect the DP makers want to incorporate.

I think a good way to tell is whether the effect is different for the various pianos offered by the RD-2000's V-Piano engine. If so, it suggests the DP is actually using the note sounds from its unlimited polyphony engine to generate the pedal effect; more commonly, there would just be a single, recorded effect that's used across all the pianos (but I'm not sure about that).
Posted By: peterws Re: Pedal Authenticity - 04/15/21 05:31 PM
Originally Posted by Gombessa
Does Pianoteq or Roland actually model the whoosh? Most DPs nowadays have some kind of pedal noise (whoosh or clunk) but it's typically just a "throwaway sample" like key-off/hammer noise. The half-pedal capable DPs will usually modulate the noise so that it's quieter or silent with smooth, slow pedal presses, and louder with sudden presses and releases, which better simulates an acoustic.

I've heard pianists are trained to adjust their pedaling technique to minimize these noises, particularly for concerts/recordings.

The Pianoteq woosh is different for every instrument. I fondly think it's individually wooshed including the different clunk you also get. I think it's in stereo but might not be. It gives a wonderful vintage feel; unfortunately the smell of the inside of the cabinet is not apparent.
It should be! Pianoteq need to model smells.
Posted By: Pete14 Re: Pedal Authenticity - 04/15/21 05:57 PM
..and we’re back to the ‘woosh’; for a minute I thought we had previously discussed everything ‘bout the woosh, but no, it seems like we weren’t done with the woosh.

But by all means don’t mind me and mi trivial observations; go on talkin’ ‘bout the woosh.
Posted By: InspiredByKawai Re: Pedal Authenticity - 04/15/21 08:30 PM
Elaborating on the woosh, when I play uprights if you forcefully hit the pedal and release you get a loud thud accompanying the woosh. Did the kawai not reproduce this at all? The virtual technician let's you adjust the amount of that effect
Did that make any difference?
Posted By: Pete14 Re: Pedal Authenticity - 04/16/21 09:45 AM
Originally Posted by InspiredByKawai
Elaborating on the woosh, when I play uprights if you forcefully hit the pedal and release you get a loud thud accompanying the woosh. Did the kawai not reproduce this at all? The virtual technician let's you adjust the amount of that effect
Did that make any difference?
Now that you’ve brought back the ‘thud’, would it be rude for me to ask about the ‘clickety-clack’?

I’ve noticed the clickety-clack when I play my P-515 with the power OFF; for some reason the clickety-clack is not noticeable with the power ON.

Anyone else ever experience the clickety-clack?
Posted By: clothearednincompo Re: Pedal Authenticity - 04/16/21 10:39 AM
What about the pedal squeak?

(I don't need it. I can live without it. I have "woosh" for down and "thud" for up.)
Posted By: mmathew Re: Pedal Authenticity - 04/16/21 11:06 AM
Originally Posted by Pete14
..and we’re back to the ‘woosh’; for a minute I thought we had previously discussed everything ‘bout the woosh, but no, it seems like we weren’t done with the woosh.

But by all means don’t mind me and mi trivial observations; go on talkin’ ‘bout the woosh.

Well, you're probably right. I thought (misunderstood) peterws' original post as to asking only if the damper press made the keys lighter to play. He did reference a whoosh. Then when I chanced upon the RD-2000 video I wanted to post it, and specifically turn attention to the "loom of the strings" (thanks Gombessa, I like this better than "whoooosh")
Posted By: MacMacMac Re: Pedal Authenticity - 04/16/21 12:49 PM
I wish they would pay more attention to making the proper string sounds, and less toward the whoosh and thud noises.
Posted By: TheophilusCarter Re: Pedal Authenticity - 04/16/21 01:24 PM
But then we wouldn't be able to debate the relative merits of samples vs. modeled whooshes and thuds! laugh
Posted By: Pete14 Re: Pedal Authenticity - 04/16/21 02:02 PM
On the matter of the woosh, the thud, the squeak, and the clickety-clack:

May I remind you that we are going through a server drought and, therefore, we should be more judicious about what warrants using-up more server space.

So I propose we refrain from certain topics unless it is decided upon the collective that such topics are of significant importance, urgency, and/or relevance.

If you do not act voluntarily, I shall be forced to ration our limited resources by decree.

Please, I beg you, act responsibly and think about your fellow member, but if you don’t, I shall bring down the hammer bestowed upon me and be done with the woosh, the thud, the squeak, and the clickety-clack!


P.S.

Don’t even get me started on pivots and such.......!
Posted By: InspiredByKawai Re: Pedal Authenticity - 04/16/21 02:03 PM
I always assumed audible wooshes and thuds were indicative of a lower quality upright
Posted By: TheophilusCarter Re: Pedal Authenticity - 04/16/21 02:06 PM
Originally Posted by Pete14
Please, I beg you, act responsibly and think about your fellow member, but if you don’t, I shall bring down the hammer bestowed upon me and be done with the woosh, the thud, the squeak, and the clickety-clack!

Yes, but what kind of SOUND will the hammer make? More like a whoosh? Or a thud?
Posted By: peterws Re: Pedal Authenticity - 04/16/21 04:02 PM
Originally Posted by Pete14
..and we’re back to the ‘woosh’; for a minute I thought we had previously discussed everything ‘bout the woosh, but no, it seems like we weren’t done with the woosh.

But by all means don’t mind me and mi trivial observations; go on talkin’ ‘bout the woosh.

Nice to see someone writing decent English. but keep the 'ammer to yerself. You're not called 'Enry; you have no right to his trademark!
Posted By: Pete14 Re: Pedal Authenticity - 04/17/21 11:51 AM
blush
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