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Posted By: Djengis Yamaha DGX-670 vs Kawai MP7se - 04/09/21 11:08 AM
This is both intended for Kawai and Yamaha (what to improve for DGX670 and MP7se):

The DGX670 is just great and I believe perfect for professional use as well as for the home based singer song writer or just music enthusiast. That is how good the sounds and effects are. Also in Yamahas favour I will say that the GHS keys are actually as good as the Kawai MP7se ones. THe touch is great and the keys turn to their resting position swiftly, have a good cushion feeling at the bottom/base and one doesn't tire though playing intensively for a long time.

THe MP7se got me tired quite quickly (and I believe Pavel said that this owes to there being some resistance all the way down, whereas the Yamaha only gives it at the start but then willingly and easily follows the fingers movement). ALso I believe that though GHS has 2 sensors, still the controle and nuances of one's playing is heard very well. Especially if having several layers of sound I believe not many will be able to hear the difference (even with just the piano).

I believe that most of the reason to the MP7se's fame owes to the combination of the keybed and the very meticulously sampled piano sounds. It is hard to hear what owes to the sampling and what to the keybed. I played them both side by side, including without sound, a lot recently and honestly I find the DGX670 keybed at least on par with that of the Kawai Rh3. I even started to prefer the GHS after a few days. But I guess one needs to get adjusted to the feel. ALso the DGX670 feels lighter just as you return from having played the MP7se, but quickly this impression leaves one. Also my precision actually seemed to be as good or better when playing the Yamaha. So the hype about Yamaha's GHS being 20 years old is nonsense if it works well.

CHopin had long not thick fingers and had his Keybed made specially so that he could play extremely fast as compared to other pianos. If one has got heavy hands it might fit one better with a heavier keybed.

SO I return the Kawai one which does not even have an audio interface, thus no mic inlet. This implies a lot of cabling in order to simply hear the play back of software VSTs, when mixing one’s music or when doing casual listening from the web. The DGX670 has a very easy Bluetooth connectivity which works. From where I listen it is just not practical with all those cables plus an audio interface means more tech stuff and adjustments, as opposed to focusing on playing. If you don’t have a band and a need for a mixer or several instrumental inlets then it is bothersome and costly to have to get a sound interface.

ALso the DGX sounds are just great out of the box plus it has all the arranger functionality.

I played Chopin and Beethoven plus improvised on them both in order to compare. Also the distance from the upper position of the keys to when they strike the felt at the bottom is around 0.5-1 mm longer for the Yamaha than for the Kawai so basically the same: 10 mm although the thickness of the felt I have not measured. THe returning of the key is fast as well. I ship back the Kawai one due to the complete picture from comparing them. That being said I loved the Yamaha keybeds of the p120, Cp5, p155 and p300 and would suggest Yamaha to consider a DGX670X or DGX680 with such a keybed.

Perhaps the ability to switch to a lighter touch in an instant, such as what the Kawai MP7se provides (well it is very easy to change the sensitivity on the DGX670 actually and not deep inside some menu: Two ways to change and in the piano room mode it is two button presses + with the direct access around the same I guess). THen one can instantaneously change the keybed feel from one, optimised for the piano focused pianist, to a keybed for the more synth/organ focused player. I might be contradicting myself and perhaps the keybed is not the issue but the sampling which might be of higher quality for those before mentioned DPs.

So to Kawai regarding the MP7se and a possible MP7se Plus:

pros:
1) Keybed: RH3 with 3 sensors.
2) The 4 layer function and easy volume controle (but the Dgx 670 has this easily accessible on the screen as well and the good thing is one can have the memory scenes (Bank) with the volumes for each different song plus 4 different versions (memory). TO have those layers and easily choose external VSTs as well is really good.
3) Great piano samplings with good nuances. It is a matter of taste though. The Yamaha sound is great I think.
4) Good looking beauty.

Cons: 1) No audio interface, thus no Microphone inlet. An audio interface introduces yet other technical challenges which a built in interface would save one from. This also means that each time you want to record your singing you need to turn on the pc. That might prevent many from spontaneous singing if they find this cumbersome. Too much tech stuff is a killer of spontaneity.
2) No Bluetooth. Really convenient when you need to mix or simply hear some playback or do casual listening.
3) Get tired in the fingers.
4) Not so many different sounds that are great right off the bat (the guitars I did not find that interesting or impressive and I went through them all and tried the various variations). One needs to do adjustings to get them right. But perhaps this is intentional since here we have 4 layers available. Regarding Yamaha, being an arranger keyboard there are a lot of sounds already in the orchestral backing sounds. I can not say much about the MP7se and how easy it is to create good sounds including the synth layers. It would take some time but I already decided that the DGX670 is easier to quickly create good sounding music.

Remember Chopin: Did he have to do all those settings? Well perhaps he would have liked the option but I think he had enough in his hands to focus on. I think he would prefer some great default sounds and be freed in his mind to focus on playing and composing rather than to remember which buttons to turn or menus to dig into.

5) No built in monitors which is another advantage of the DGX since you get the sound directly into your ears and don’t have to turn it up that much: Which the neighbours love. Also with monitors you can use them as feedback while also plugging in bigger external loudspeakers for a bigger audience (yes that is possible). Yet again having a combination of great monitors turned upwards plus some built in more powerful ones for an audience (which can be turned on or off) is another possible scenario, but that would of course mean an increase in weight. I would prioritise some great keybed, which doesn’t fatigue one’s fingers.
Posted By: terminaldegree Re: Yamaha DGX-670 vs Kawai MP7se - 04/09/21 11:59 AM
Originally Posted by Djengis
The DGX670 is...perfect for professional use...
THe MP7se got me tired quite quickly (and I believe Pavel said that this owes to there being some resistance all the way down, whereas the Yamaha only gives it at the start but then willingly and easily follows the fingers movement).

Completely disagree. Also what’s the rambling about Chopin’s piano doing in the discussion? If the RHIII is making you tired, there’s something wrong with your technique.
Posted By: Djengis Re: Yamaha DGX-670 vs Kawai MP7se - 04/09/21 12:14 PM
Did you personally compare them? Your insulting language is rambling to me. It is very relevant to talk about Chopin in that he actually disliked a heavy feel, my highly esteemed friend.
Posted By: mmatthew Re: Yamaha DGX-670 vs Kawai MP7se - 04/09/21 12:26 PM
You are free to compare the two, but both don't belong to the same category of pianos. One is clearly a built-from-scratch to be a stage piano. The other serves the needs of people looking for compact options mostly to be used in a home learning or light entertainment setting.
Posted By: Djengis Re: Yamaha DGX-670 vs Kawai MP7se - 04/09/21 12:36 PM
I don't give much for the so called categories plus people have various needs. FOr me it makes sense to compare them in that they are both user friendly and good for realtime adjustments. I compare them since they were the top choices for me and my needs and I know many have the same needs. THus I don't care which categories the manufacturers have chosen to place them in. It is irrelevant what is relevant is what you need to do.
I guess there is money in upselling and calling the DGX670 a beginners piano but I don't agree. If it works it works and the sounds are amazing. THat should be the core thing.
Posted By: terminaldegree Re: Yamaha DGX-670 vs Kawai MP7se - 04/09/21 12:40 PM
Originally Posted by Djengis
Did you personally compare them?

It is very relevant to talk about Chopin in that he actually disliked a heavy feel.

I have played dozens of GHS action Yamahas and dozens of RHIII action Kawais, both in console and slab form factors. I have also observed a good number of my students in trying both and have seen their reaction, without trying to influence their opinion. These actions really aren’t in the same classes (in terms of weight, product positioning, cost, and performance) and it’s sort of unfair to compare them in the first place...

How many period/historic instruments have you tried? Most pianists dislike a “heavy feel” for their performance instruments.

I wouldn’t have said anything at all but you chose to cross post your review in a completely unrelated thread, apparently to try and generate views.
Posted By: Djengis Re: Yamaha DGX-670 vs Kawai MP7se - 04/09/21 12:58 PM
Yes exactly what I said: The heavy feel is best for people who really love say a heavy Steinway, and perhaps due to the constitution of their fingers/hands/arms etc. A grand piano has often got rather light keys. I read that someone speculated that this debate about having to have a heavy touch much owed to someone spreading this wrong biased argument, which then the market followed, for which reason the differential marketing parameter came to be that.

So therefore it is wrong to exclude the GHS feel from the discussion since some people or a lot actually will prefer it due to the arguments mentioned. ALso in a household it is a good idea since children will have problems adjusting to a heavy touch.

I used the example of Chopin to paint the picture and show how some marketing philosophy might NOT reflect the reality.

In fact often a need in the market did not exist to begin with but was created artificially which the consumers then adapted to and started to believe they really had to have. But so is the commercial world. We don't need to sit and wait for such more or less unsubstantiated claims to dictate what we need.

No you are wrong: THis debate was taking place in that thread, but since the scope was on a tangent I found it better to initiate a new thread.
Posted By: mmatthew Re: Yamaha DGX-670 vs Kawai MP7se - 04/09/21 01:04 PM
Originally Posted by Djengis
I don't give much for the so called categories

THus I don't care which categories the manufacturers have chosen to place them in.

I guess there is money in upselling and calling the DGX670 a beginners piano but I don't agree.

- Again, you're free to not care.
- Different manufacturer categories exist, because there are fundamental differences.
- "Beginner's piano" is not a category that manufacturers came up with. They don't care if a beginner uses a piano from the "Hybrids" category.
Posted By: Djengis Re: Yamaha DGX-670 vs Kawai MP7se - 04/09/21 01:17 PM
Exactly, they did not. That is something people believe in, although people are free to define the pianos as they wish. But probably a lot who pay a lot for a piano like to refer to the cheaper ones as beginners pianos or the retailers might use that argument hoping to sell one of their more expensive models. But luckily we are free from such terminology. It is a commercial world.

Of course there are differences regarding the hammer technique and the 3 sensors are undobtedly more precise than 2 sensors. HOwever if the difference is that pronounced is the question. THerefore I concluded that the overall gains of the DGX670 (owning it) overshine the difference regarding the keybed, and as said that keybed might actually be preferable.
Posted By: Abdol Re: Yamaha DGX-670 vs Kawai MP7se - 04/09/21 01:19 PM
Originally Posted by Djengis
This is both intended for Kawai and Yamaha (what to improve for DGX670 and MP7se):

The DGX670 is just great and I believe perfect for professional use as well as for the home based singer song writer or just music enthusiast. That is how good the sounds and effects are. Also in Yamahas favour I will say that the GHS keys are actually as good as the Kawai MP7se ones. THe touch is great and the keys turn to their resting position swiftly, have a good cushion feeling at the bottom/base and one doesn't tire though playing intensively for a long time.

THe MP7se got me tired quite quickly (and I believe Pavel said that this owes to there being some resistance all the way down, whereas the Yamaha only gives it at the start but then willingly and easily follows the fingers movement). ALso I believe that though GHS has 2 sensors, still the controle and nuances of one's playing is heard very well. Especially if having several layers of sound I believe not many will be able to hear the difference (even with just the piano).

I believe that most of the reason to the MP7se's fame owes to the combination of the keybed and the very meticulously sampled piano sounds. It is hard to hear what owes to the sampling and what to the keybed. I played them both side by side, including without sound, a lot recently and honestly I find the DGX670 keybed at least on par with that of the Kawai Rh3. I even started to prefer the GHS after a few days. But I guess one needs to get adjusted to the feel. ALso the DGX670 feels lighter just as you return from having played the MP7se, but quickly this impression leaves one. Also my precision actually seemed to be as good or better when playing the Yamaha. So the hype about Yamaha's GHS being 20 years old is nonsense if it works well.

CHopin had long not thick fingers and had his Keybed made specially so that he could play extremely fast as compared to other pianos. If one has got heavy hands it might fit one better with a heavier keybed.

SO I return the Kawai one which does not even have an audio interface, thus no mic inlet. This implies a lot of cabling in order to simply hear the play back of software VSTs, when mixing one’s music or when doing casual listening from the web. The DGX670 has a very easy Bluetooth connectivity which works. From where I listen it is just not practical with all those cables plus an audio interface means more tech stuff and adjustments, as opposed to focusing on playing. If you don’t have a band and a need for a mixer or several instrumental inlets then it is bothersome and costly to have to get a sound interface.

ALso the DGX sounds are just great out of the box plus it has all the arranger functionality.

I played Chopin and Beethoven plus improvised on them both in order to compare. Also the distance from the upper position of the keys to when they strike the felt at the bottom is around 0.5-1 mm longer for the Yamaha than for the Kawai so basically the same: 10 mm although the thickness of the felt I have not measured. THe returning of the key is fast as well. I ship back the Kawai one due to the complete picture from comparing them. That being said I loved the Yamaha keybeds of the p120, Cp5, p155 and p300 and would suggest Yamaha to consider a DGX670X or DGX680 with such a keybed.

Perhaps the ability to switch to a lighter touch in an instant, such as what the Kawai MP7se provides (well it is very easy to change the sensitivity on the DGX670 actually and not deep inside some menu: Two ways to change and in the piano room mode it is two button presses + with the direct access around the same I guess). THen one can instantaneously change the keybed feel from one, optimised for the piano focused pianist, to a keybed for the more synth/organ focused player. I might be contradicting myself and perhaps the keybed is not the issue but the sampling which might be of higher quality for those before mentioned DPs.

So to Kawai regarding the MP7se and a possible MP7se Plus:

pros:
1) Keybed: RH3 with 3 sensors.
2) The 4 layer function and easy volume controle (but the Dgx 670 has this easily accessible on the screen as well and the good thing is one can have the memory scenes (Bank) with the volumes for each different song plus 4 different versions (memory). TO have those layers and easily choose external VSTs as well is really good.
3) Great piano samplings with good nuances. It is a matter of taste though. The Yamaha sound is great I think.
4) Good looking beauty.

Cons: 1) No audio interface, thus no Microphone inlet. An audio interface introduces yet other technical challenges which a built in interface would save one from. This also means that each time you want to record your singing you need to turn on the pc. That might prevent many from spontaneous singing if they find this cumbersome. Too much tech stuff is a killer of spontaneity.
2) No Bluetooth. Really convenient when you need to mix or simply hear some playback or do casual listening.
3) Get tired in the fingers.
4) Not so many different sounds that are great right off the bat (the guitars I did not find that interesting or impressive and I went through them all and tried the various variations). One needs to do adjustings to get them right. But perhaps this is intentional since here we have 4 layers available. Regarding Yamaha, being an arranger keyboard there are a lot of sounds already in the orchestral backing sounds. I can not say much about the MP7se and how easy it is to create good sounds including the synth layers. It would take some time but I already decided that the DGX670 is easier to quickly create good sounding music.

Remember Chopin: Did he have to do all those settings? Well perhaps he would have liked the option but I think he had enough in his hands to focus on. I think he would prefer some great default sounds and be freed in his mind to focus on playing and composing rather than to remember which buttons to turn or menus to dig into.

5) No built in monitors which is another advantage of the DGX since you get the sound directly into your ears and don’t have to turn it up that much: Which the neighbours love. Also with monitors you can use them as feedback while also plugging in bigger external loudspeakers for a bigger audience (yes that is possible). Yet again having a combination of great monitors turned upwards plus some built in more powerful ones for an audience (which can be turned on or off) is another possible scenario, but that would of course mean an increase in weight. I would prioritise some great keybed, which doesn’t fatigue one’s fingers.

I totally agree with you. DGX series is a masterpeice. Great that you made this discovery and shared it with us. Thank you!

Can you compare other models like RD2000, CP88, and potentially the P-515 with DGX-670? We need expert opinions like yours here more than ever during pandemic times.

Thanks again bud!
Posted By: Abdol Re: Yamaha DGX-670 vs Kawai MP7se - 04/09/21 01:23 PM
BTW the resistance you're saying is called the "escapement". I think Pavel forgot to mention it. Also, Pavel where are you man?
Posted By: terminaldegree Re: Yamaha DGX-670 vs Kawai MP7se - 04/09/21 01:26 PM
Originally Posted by Djengis
Yes exactly what I said: The heavy feel is best for people who really love say a heavy Steinway, and perhaps due to the constitution of their fingers/hands/arms etc. A grand piano has often got rather light keys. I read that someone speculated that this debate about having to have a heavy touch much owed to someone spreading this wrong biased argument, which then the market followed, for which reason the differential marketing parameter came to be that.

Current-production Steinway grands are not heavy pianos to play...almost too much so on some of the recent concert grands I've tried. Though we'll see what changes with Renner in their umbrella of wholly-owned subsidiaries does to the NY production. Actions became heavier historically as fortepiano and piano design evolved. Sturdier frame construction allowed for higher tension designs and dynamic potential, along with larger hammers to drive these pianos. This brought about action changes. And it also brought about changes in piano technique from what came generations before.

Which is why I asked about your personal experience with historic pianos-- the first thing I noticed about the action when giving a concert on an 1855 Broadwood (granted, not what Chopin had, but certainly closer than a modern piano) was the shallowness of the key dip, not the touch weight. This made a lot of the repeated note figures in a Schubert sonata substantially easier to play. Of course, there were also drawbacks-- worse tuning stability, limited dynamic range, and pedal trap work made mostly of wood that felt rather fragile.
Posted By: mmatthew Re: Yamaha DGX-670 vs Kawai MP7se - 04/09/21 01:28 PM
Pardon my ignorance, and I've only been here for a short time, but who is Pavel? I know there's a guy on YouTube whose middle name is that, but I'm not sure it's the same person being referred.

Originally Posted by Abdol
BTW the resistance you're saying is called the "escapement". I think Pavel forgot to mention it. Also, Pavel where are you man?
Posted By: EinLudov Re: Yamaha DGX-670 vs Kawai MP7se - 04/09/21 01:35 PM
I prefer rhc2 over ghs, but they're pretty close, I wouldn't complain on either.

I do believe Price vs Performance, DGX670 is unrivaled.
Posted By: Abdol Re: Yamaha DGX-670 vs Kawai MP7se - 04/09/21 01:42 PM
Originally Posted by mmathew
Pardon my ignorance, and I've only been here for a short time, but who is Pavel? I know there's a guy on YouTube whose middle name is that, but I'm not sure it's the same person being referred.

Originally Posted by Abdol
BTW the resistance you're saying is called the "escapement". I think Pavel forgot to mention it. Also, Pavel where are you man?

I was ignorant too until Djengis enlightened me with his post. It moved me like reading a verse from our holy book.

I have no idea who Pavel is! but I suggest we exegesis Djengis' post. Pavel can be an angle delivering divine messages.
Posted By: EinLudov Re: Yamaha DGX-670 vs Kawai MP7se - 04/09/21 01:47 PM
I will say it's kinda sneaky they removed the included stand which came with the dgx660 though. laugh
Posted By: Djengis Re: Yamaha DGX-670 vs Kawai MP7se - 04/09/21 02:27 PM
Originally Posted by Abdol
Originally Posted by Djengis
This is both intended for Kawai and Yamaha (what to improve for DGX670 and MP7se):

The DGX670 is just great and I believe perfect for professional use as well as for the home based singer song writer or just music enthusiast. That is how good the sounds and effects are. Also in Yamahas favour I will say that the GHS keys are actually as good as the Kawai MP7se ones. THe touch is great and the keys turn to their resting position swiftly, have a good cushion feeling at the bottom/base and one doesn't tire though playing intensively for a long time.

THe MP7se got me tired quite quickly (and I believe Pavel said that this owes to there being some resistance all the way down, whereas the Yamaha only gives it at the start but then willingly and easily follows the fingers movement). ALso I believe that though GHS has 2 sensors, still the controle and nuances of one's playing is heard very well. Especially if having several layers of sound I believe not many will be able to hear the difference (even with just the piano).

I believe that most of the reason to the MP7se's fame owes to the combination of the keybed and the very meticulously sampled piano sounds. It is hard to hear what owes to the sampling and what to the keybed. I played them both side by side, including without sound, a lot recently and honestly I find the DGX670 keybed at least on par with that of the Kawai Rh3. I even started to prefer the GHS after a few days. But I guess one needs to get adjusted to the feel. ALso the DGX670 feels lighter just as you return from having played the MP7se, but quickly this impression leaves one. Also my precision actually seemed to be as good or better when playing the Yamaha. So the hype about Yamaha's GHS being 20 years old is nonsense if it works well.

CHopin had long not thick fingers and had his Keybed made specially so that he could play extremely fast as compared to other pianos. If one has got heavy hands it might fit one better with a heavier keybed.

SO I return the Kawai one which does not even have an audio interface, thus no mic inlet. This implies a lot of cabling in order to simply hear the play back of software VSTs, when mixing one’s music or when doing casual listening from the web. The DGX670 has a very easy Bluetooth connectivity which works. From where I listen it is just not practical with all those cables plus an audio interface means more tech stuff and adjustments, as opposed to focusing on playing. If you don’t have a band and a need for a mixer or several instrumental inlets then it is bothersome and costly to have to get a sound interface.

ALso the DGX sounds are just great out of the box plus it has all the arranger functionality.

I played Chopin and Beethoven plus improvised on them both in order to compare. Also the distance from the upper position of the keys to when they strike the felt at the bottom is around 0.5-1 mm longer for the Yamaha than for the Kawai so basically the same: 10 mm although the thickness of the felt I have not measured. THe returning of the key is fast as well. I ship back the Kawai one due to the complete picture from comparing them. That being said I loved the Yamaha keybeds of the p120, Cp5, p155 and p300 and would suggest Yamaha to consider a DGX670X or DGX680 with such a keybed.

Perhaps the ability to switch to a lighter touch in an instant, such as what the Kawai MP7se provides (well it is very easy to change the sensitivity on the DGX670 actually and not deep inside some menu: Two ways to change and in the piano room mode it is two button presses + with the direct access around the same I guess). THen one can instantaneously change the keybed feel from one, optimised for the piano focused pianist, to a keybed for the more synth/organ focused player. I might be contradicting myself and perhaps the keybed is not the issue but the sampling which might be of higher quality for those before mentioned DPs.

So to Kawai regarding the MP7se and a possible MP7se Plus:

pros:
1) Keybed: RH3 with 3 sensors.
2) The 4 layer function and easy volume controle (but the Dgx 670 has this easily accessible on the screen as well and the good thing is one can have the memory scenes (Bank) with the volumes for each different song plus 4 different versions (memory). TO have those layers and easily choose external VSTs as well is really good.
3) Great piano samplings with good nuances. It is a matter of taste though. The Yamaha sound is great I think.
4) Good looking beauty.

Cons: 1) No audio interface, thus no Microphone inlet. An audio interface introduces yet other technical challenges which a built in interface would save one from. This also means that each time you want to record your singing you need to turn on the pc. That might prevent many from spontaneous singing if they find this cumbersome. Too much tech stuff is a killer of spontaneity.
2) No Bluetooth. Really convenient when you need to mix or simply hear some playback or do casual listening.
3) Get tired in the fingers.
4) Not so many different sounds that are great right off the bat (the guitars I did not find that interesting or impressive and I went through them all and tried the various variations). One needs to do adjustings to get them right. But perhaps this is intentional since here we have 4 layers available. Regarding Yamaha, being an arranger keyboard there are a lot of sounds already in the orchestral backing sounds. I can not say much about the MP7se and how easy it is to create good sounds including the synth layers. It would take some time but I already decided that the DGX670 is easier to quickly create good sounding music.

Remember Chopin: Did he have to do all those settings? Well perhaps he would have liked the option but I think he had enough in his hands to focus on. I think he would prefer some great default sounds and be freed in his mind to focus on playing and composing rather than to remember which buttons to turn or menus to dig into.

5) No built in monitors which is another advantage of the DGX since you get the sound directly into your ears and don’t have to turn it up that much: Which the neighbours love. Also with monitors you can use them as feedback while also plugging in bigger external loudspeakers for a bigger audience (yes that is possible). Yet again having a combination of great monitors turned upwards plus some built in more powerful ones for an audience (which can be turned on or off) is another possible scenario, but that would of course mean an increase in weight. I would prioritise some great keybed, which doesn’t fatigue one’s fingers.

I totally agree with you. DGX series is a masterpeice. Great that you made this discovery and shared it with us. Thank you!

Can you compare other models like RD2000, CP88, and potentially the P-515 with DGX-670? We need expert opinions like yours here more than ever during pandemic times.

Thanks again bud!

THank you for the supporting words :-)

Expert ...hmmm, I just do my research quite profoundly.

ANyway here are my 5 cents about those pianos you mentioned.

RD2000: Highly wanted to purchase this the moment it was released, but found it lacked a microphone and I prefer the sounds of the Yamahas, though it might be an acquired taste, the supernatural sound engine on the Roland: Didn't really impress me although I would have to do better comparisons to really tell (good loudspeakers, no noise in the room, good headphones etc.).
I prefer samplings still. I found the concept with a lot of controllable layers inviting. But perhaps there is some learning curve. I never bought it. I decided for the DGX660 instead which however I replaced with the MOXF8 after 1 year. THe moXF8 was too complicated to inspire to creating music, by the way, though it's GHS keybed was good.

CP88: Never tried it but from the reviews (and listening to it through headphones) I found that it is best for purely stage use due to the sounds being quite sharp and useful for penetrating some bands sound: I prefer the Korg grandstage, MP7se or Nord Grand although I would have to test them myself against each other to know for sure. Again the keybed is good according to some and undoubtedly it provides 3 sensors and good samplings and therefore it can be controlled well, plus the User interface allows for really quick easy real time handling, perfect for the gigging musician. I was very curious about this digital piano, yet to a musician like myself I like to have more sounds available. I think it is a shame that one would have to purchase some heavy furniture to get it all: That is until the latest DGX models where the sounds are really great and generally improved from the DGX660. I always buy transportable DPs or Stage pianos.

P515: I have played this and actually beside the DGX660. THe ivory keybed feel is great (although to some the Yamahas might be a tad to heavy: But I think this impression is highly adjustable with the sensitivity settings), but I really did not like the loudspeakers and the reason probably being one or more of the following reasons:

a) Big piano room and carpets (though the DGX660 was just beside it and the sound being good).
b) Loudspeakers turned downwards.
c) Loudspeakers being powerful but probably not sounding that good before turning up the volume quite much.
d) The loudspeakers not being that well constructed as those of the latest two DGX. THe DGX loudspeakers consist of two bass cones for the deeper frequencies plus 2 tweeters for the high frequencies, plus they are fairly loud and provide a clear and clean sound. I just could not get the same feeling from the p515 which is a shame. I heard another who had the same opinion.

Also as said I prefer a DP with more available sounds. THat is the reason the DGX appeals to me. I like playing various instrumental sounds such as spanish or electric guitars, flutes, synth sounds etc. FOr many years it was just the piano sound but I got the hang of the variety of sounds.

This were just some of my quick impressions with the mentioned pianos.

I created this thread because I wish to shed light on the needs mentioned: Many sounds, arranger functionality, ease of use in combination with a good keybed. But as said I believe that often distinguishing between the quality of the samplings and the keybed feel is rather hard. A good sampling can give the impression of a good keybed and vice versa. Since the keybeds might be rather similar in terms of quality, the most important choice is probably often that of which sounds appeal to one and inspire one to create music.
Posted By: Djengis Re: Yamaha DGX-670 vs Kawai MP7se - 04/09/21 02:39 PM
The competition is quite hard so even small costs might alter peoples decision I guess. But I prefer a self chosen stand although it is a shame that the triple pedal only works with that NON portable stand.
Posted By: Djengis Re: Yamaha DGX-670 vs Kawai MP7se - 04/09/21 02:41 PM
Originally Posted by Abdol
Originally Posted by mmathew
Pardon my ignorance, and I've only been here for a short time, but who is Pavel? I know there's a guy on YouTube whose middle name is that, but I'm not sure it's the same person being referred.

Originally Posted by Abdol
BTW the resistance you're saying is called the "escapement". I think Pavel forgot to mention it. Also, Pavel where are you man?

I was ignorant too until Djengis enlightened me with his post. It moved me like reading a verse from our holy book.

I have no idea who Pavel is! but I suggest we exegesis Djengis' post. Pavel can be an angle delivering divine messages.


Hahaha ;-) no he is an actual person who likes reviewing pianos: james pavel shawcross. This answers your question too mmathew.
Posted By: EVC2017 Re: Yamaha DGX-670 vs Kawai MP7se - 04/09/21 03:13 PM
Originally Posted by Abdol
I totally agree with you. DGX series is a masterpeice. Great that you made this discovery and shared it with us. Thank you!


Who are you? What did you do with the true Abdol? Please give him back! Preferably in one piece! smile
Posted By: EinLudov Re: Yamaha DGX-670 vs Kawai MP7se - 04/09/21 03:19 PM
Originally Posted by EVC2017
Originally Posted by Abdol
I totally agree with you. DGX series is a masterpeice. Great that you made this discovery and shared it with us. Thank you!

Who are you? What did you do with the true Abdol? Please give him back! Preferably in one piece! smile

I've looked through Abdol's previous posts, this sudden change in personality/allegiance is highly irregular. grin He's was firmly team kawai.
Posted By: Djengis Re: Yamaha DGX-670 vs Kawai MP7se - 04/09/21 03:28 PM
Well I also remember that he started to like the DGX 670 and I agree it is fantastic. Took me less than one day to know most of the main functionality plus record a whole cover song, to get started.

For someone who loves playing and creating, such easy userinterface plus variety of options is invaluable.
Posted By: Abdol Re: Yamaha DGX-670 vs Kawai MP7se - 04/09/21 03:33 PM
Originally Posted by Djengis
Hahaha ;-) no he is an actual person who likes reviewing pianos: james pavel shawcross

You're either too young, a new member here, or maybe you don't understand middle eastern sarcasm.

To be honest with you, you have no (zero) idea about what professional gear should be.

So here is my feedback on your post. You're comparing potatoes and watermelons. DGX670 is definitely not a professional instrument. It has the worst 88-key action Yamaha manufactures at has the worst arranger capabilities. Not even the same as the entry-level PSR-S670 (or even PSR-660).

Originally Posted by Djengis
The DGX670 is just great and I believe perfect for professional use

Not true. What is a professional use? Are you talking about the studio? the stage? or song ararngement?

Studio: I need an absolute killer "bread and butter" voices, awesome action, and control capabilities. If I have some old gears, I need MIDI I/O. I don't need a garbage internal speaker because I have great monitor speakers in the studio and standard monitor headphones.

Stage: On the stage, bread and butter voices are the most important ones. I don't play "acoustic guitar" nor do I play flute on my stage keyboard. There is a monitor on the stage dedicated to me and I don't need the internal speakers. I also don't need an audio interface. Because on the stage using a USB audio interface is useless. Sometimes you don't even have a stereo cable available!

Music production: DGX-670 doesn't have a sequencer and you can't even do a professional arrangement on it. It sounds terrible for music production. It's a beginner instrument. No compressor effect, no side chains, limited capabilities even for creating styles!

My MOTIF XF which is a monster compared to the DGX series in terms of functionality is still a toy compared to a DAW. No professional would use an arranger to compose an audio track. Maybe if you want to play something for kids in the kindergarten or at home it is okay to use a style from the DGX series. I wouldn't take it to a serious gig.

Originally Posted by Djengis
Also in Yamahas favour I will say that the GHS keys are actually as good as the Kawai MP7se ones. THe touch is great and the keys turn to their resting position swiftly, have a good cushion feeling at the bottom/base and one doesn't tire though playing intensively for a long time.

GHS lacks escapements, counterweights, and other features. Try to learn about how acoustic piano's action work and you'll start appreciating the RHIII behavior.

Originally Posted by Djengis
THe MP7se got me tired quite quickly (and I believe Pavel said that this owes to there being some resistance all the way down, whereas the Yamaha only gives it at the start but then willingly and easily follows the fingers movement). ALso I believe that though GHS has 2 sensors, still the controle and nuances of one's playing is heard very well. Especially if having several layers of sound I believe not many will be able to hear the difference (even with just the piano).

The escapement is what your keyboard lacks. You didn't properly understand what Pavel said, or Pavel knows little about actions. The 3rd sensor contributes to faster performance. I have played GHS keyboards before (MOX/F 88 and MODX 88) and it's nothing near RHIII. RD2000, P-515 all have these same features and they have escapement.

Originally Posted by Djengis
I believe that most of the reason for the MP7se's fame owes to the combination of the keybed and the very meticulously sampled piano sounds. It is hard to hear what owes to the sampling and what to the keybed. I played them both side by side, including without sound, a lot recently and honestly I find the DGX670 keybed at least on par with that of the Kawai Rh3.

MP7SE is a stage instrument. Manufactured for professionals and those who want to perform on the stage. DGX670 is built to be played at home.

Originally Posted by Djengis
I even started to prefer the GHS after a few days. But I guess one needs to get adjusted to the feel. ALso the DGX670 feels lighter just as you return from having played the MP7se, but quickly this impression leaves one. Also my precision actually seemed to be as good or better when playing the Yamaha. So the hype about Yamaha's GHS being 20 years old is nonsense if it works well.

It's the worst action Yamaha manufactures as of today. It's a fact.

Originally Posted by Djengis
SO I return the Kawai one which does not even have an audio interface, thus no mic inlet. This implies a lot of cabling in order to simply hear the play back of software VSTs, when mixing one’s music or when doing casual listening from the web. The DGX670 has a very easy Bluetooth connectivity which works. From where I listen it is just not practical with all those cables plus an audio interface means more tech stuff and adjustments, as opposed to focusing on playing. If you don’t have a band and a need for a mixer or several instrumental inlets then it is bothersome and costly to have to get a sound interface.

You wanted something for home use, and your first choice was base on you not being familiar with your needs.

You have little understanding of why an audio interface is not significant to have in the studio, or on the stage, or for music composition and you don't know how to set up and manage your gears accordingly.

Bluetooth connectivity has a delay. You have a bare minimum audio interface on the DGX. What I want is a professional mixer that can handle multiple instruments. In the studio I'd rather have optical/digital I/Os on my devices rather than an interface. Genos actually has it.

Originally Posted by Djengis
ALso the DGX sounds are just great out of the box plus it has all the arranger functionality.

You must try the older DGX series first. The bread and butter sound set you get in the DGX series doesn't sound the same as Yamaha's stage instruments nor MP7SE. Acoustic guitars or flute and saxophone aren't bread and butter voices.

Originally Posted by Djengis
Perhaps the ability to switch to a lighter touch in an instant, such as what the Kawai MP7se provides (well it is very easy to change the sensitivity on the DGX670 actually and not deep inside some menu: Two ways to change and in the piano room mode it is two button presses + with the direct access around the same I guess). THen one can instantaneously change the keybed feel from one, optimised for the piano focused pianist, to a keybed for the more synth/organ focused player. I might be contradicting myself and perhaps the keybed is not the issue but the sampling which might be of higher quality for those before mentioned DPs

The rest of the points you're making are all relates to you using this instrument in a basic home setup.

Let me just give you two examples:
Change a voice on your DGX670 while pressing the sustain pedal and see what happens. That will never happen on MP7SE.
Can you find a MIDI I/O at the back of your keyboard?

Anyway, if you didn't like MP7SE it's fine but comparing DGX670 and MP7SE and conclusions like yours are like saying I like potatos but I don't like watermelons. It's not a comparison. I hope you see the point.
Posted By: magicpiano Re: Yamaha DGX-670 vs Kawai MP7se - 04/09/21 03:36 PM
@Djengis:
I think the GHS is a very nice and light keyboard action.

I agree RHIII is not light at all and after some time of playing it tires your fingers, especially if you are an adult beginner and you are learning classical piano music where you have fast trills, repeated notes, octaves, big chords, passages where you have some fingers more near the fallboard, or where your hand remains in the same position and your fingers quickly alternate between bichords (1-3, 2-4, 3-5, 2-4, 1-3 and so on). I think these things are much less tiring to do on a light keyboard action like the Yamaha GHS or the Kawai RHC compared to the less cheap Yamaha NWX or the Kawai RHIII. But I guess the latters could make the transition to a real acoustic easier... Or is it just a metropolitan legend?

Anyway I don't think you should compare 2 instruments designed for different targets in mind. We are talking about a very generic multi-purpose digital piano/arranger VS a professional stage piano with 4 independent zones you can mix/split/etc... The MP7SE doesn't even have internal speakers (that's standard with professional stage equipment) and it was designed to work as a MIDI controller too.

IMHO, as a professional stage piano, the MP7SE is absolutely unrivaled in its price range. And it's sturdy and beautiful looking too.

Anyway, as a generic DP, if I look at the specs and price, the DGX-670 looks a very nice product and it has a great value for money. But if I look at its pictures I'm crying! It's very bulky, fat, ugly looking to me and just for this I would never buy it... Just a quick comparison of the looks:

[Linked Image]
[Linked Image]

As you can notice, the first is clearly all plastic (and has a strange looking shape in the back). The other one has an elegant looking metal case.

But as I said before, they are 2 different products for different targets and use cases (and for very different aesthetic tastes!).
Posted By: Abdol Re: Yamaha DGX-670 vs Kawai MP7se - 04/09/21 03:41 PM
Originally Posted by Djengis
Well I also remember that he started to like the DGX 670 and I agree it is fantastic. Took me less than one day to know most of the main functionality plus record a whole cover song, to get started.

For someone who loves playing and creating, such easy userinterface plus variety of options is invaluable.

It took me (and other users) a couple of years to learn the ins and outs of my MOTIF XF properly.
Posted By: EinLudov Re: Yamaha DGX-670 vs Kawai MP7se - 04/09/21 03:43 PM
Originally Posted by magicpiano
@Djengis:
As you can notice, the first is clearly all plastic (and has a strange looking shape in the back). The other one has an elegant looking metal case.

Agreed it looks a bit weird on its own, but with the stand, it looks alright.
Posted By: Djengis Re: Yamaha DGX-670 vs Kawai MP7se - 04/09/21 03:55 PM
An audio interface like that on the DGX670 simply converts sound into 0 s and 1 s and in this case in CD quality, which probably is sufficient for most people.

If you don't have a whole band or just the DP and vocals then an extermal audio interface is like shooting sparrows with a cannon.

Yes, one might have a bit more controle with the MP7se since it is more weighted, but it is a matter of getting used to. When one plays on the DGX you need to exert less force to do the same. Not talking about the escapement which of course might add some friction as well, but that there is a continuous resistance throughout the keys journey on the MP7se and probably this makes the fingers tire faster.

Let me say I play very fast and complicated pieces of music. But the last years due to the Moxf8 I got out of training because of the user interface.
I have owned 7 Yamahas: P 300, p120, p155, CP5, Dgx660, MOXF8, and now the DGX670.
I return the MP7se due to a scouring sound of the middle C.
Also I have a son whom I teach the art of playing. Having too heavy keys is not beneficial to him. One can chance the setting from medium to hard1 if wanting to.

Try pressing the ghs keys and the mp7se side by side without sound. You will realise that the GHS is not too light at all. This makes me believe even more that the sensation of heaviness owes primarily to this constant counterforce of the Kawai keys.
Posted By: magicpiano Re: Yamaha DGX-670 vs Kawai MP7se - 04/09/21 04:03 PM
Originally Posted by EinLudov
Originally Posted by magicpiano
@Djengis:
As you can notice, the first is clearly all plastic (and has a strange looking shape in the back). The other one has an elegant looking metal case.

Agreed it looks a bit weird on its own, but with the stand, it looks alright.
IMHO it looks strange with its stand too:

[Linked Image]

I don't like that the DP width goes beyond the width of the stand and I don't like the design of those clumsy looking feet that give the impression of wanting to trip you... grin
Posted By: Abdol Re: Yamaha DGX-670 vs Kawai MP7se - 04/09/21 05:03 PM
Originally Posted by Djengis
An audio interface like that on the DGX670 simply converts sound into 0 s and 1 s and in this case in CD quality, which probably is sufficient for most people.

If you don't have a whole band or just the DP and vocals then an extermal audio interface is like shooting sparrows with a cannon.

Yes, one might have a bit more controle with the MP7se since it is more weighted, but it is a matter of getting used to. When one plays on the DGX you need to exert less force to do the same. Not talking about the escapement which of course might add some friction as well, but that there is a continuous resistance throughout the keys journey on the MP7se and probably this makes the fingers tire faster.

Let me say I play very fast and complicated pieces of music. But the last years due to the Moxf8 I got out of training because of the user interface.
I have owned 7 Yamahas: P 300, p120, p155, CP5, Dgx660, MOXF8, and now the DGX670.
I return the MP7se due to a scouring sound of the middle C.
Also I have a son whom I teach the art of playing. Having too heavy keys is not beneficial to him. One can chance the setting from medium to hard1 if wanting to.

Try pressing the ghs keys and the mp7se side by side without sound. You will realise that the GHS is not too light at all. This makes me believe even more that the sensation of heaviness owes primarily to this constant counterforce of the Kawai keys.

None of your older keyboards had escapement. I have seen many children learning to play piano on acoustics with stiffer actions compared to GHS.

I honestly don't understand what you're trying to infer here. I'd never buy DGX670 to go on a stage, studio with. For professional music production, I also choose a synth that has great integration with DAWs and a decent audio interface. For speakers, I'd pick a good pair of studio montiros.

That's about it. If I don't want to spend a single penny on the quality of the music I make, I'd pick DGX-670.
Posted By: peterws Re: Yamaha DGX-670 vs Kawai MP7se - 04/09/21 07:03 PM
Originally Posted by Djengis
I don't give much for the so called categories plus people have various needs. FOr me it makes sense to compare them in that they are both user friendly and good for realtime adjustments. I compare them since they were the top choices for me and my needs and I know many have the same needs. THus I don't care which categories the manufacturers have chosen to place them in. It is irrelevant what is relevant is what you need to do.
I guess there is money in upselling and calling the DGX670 a beginners piano but I don't agree. If it works it works and the sounds are amazing. THat should be the core thing.

I think you did a great job summarising those little beasts from your point of view. I agree with you entirely. Others have commented on digital piano keyboards including the Kawai RH one which is popular here because Kawai is popular here.
There are many self opinionated who despise GHS in a freaky way. They hate it.
Let them, poor b*ggers
I found it a good action for, as you say, those with slimmer and smaller fingers. Mine are a tad large, but I played my best on that board, indeed, on the DGXs I owned. There were three.
I've never had so much fun, nor learnt so much as I did in those days. I learnt to write and play multitrack stuff which exceeded my wildest dreams; it was so easy, and you could include a drum backing which was pretty comprehensive, with fill ins etc.

Nothing compares! I'll probably buy another if I want to go down that path again. Have fun.Djengis. That's what it's all about!
Posted By: Djengis Re: Yamaha DGX-670 vs Kawai MP7se - 04/09/21 07:58 PM
Thanks ☺️👍

Started to wonder if I were the only one. I agree that the keybed is good on the Mp7se but one quickly adapts to rhe touch on the Dgx and then one can play at about the same level, PLUS have so much fun as you said.

If yamaha decides to follow up on the 670 by offering a version with their 3 sensor keys, then I will get that one. Or if Kawai includes an audio interface, bluetooth and optimally some more rhythms/ styles etc I will buy that one. The soeakers of the Dgx are really good and clear. That is an advantage. Lousy speakers are not.
Posted By: peterws Re: Yamaha DGX-670 vs Kawai MP7se - 04/09/21 10:02 PM
Originally Posted by Djengis
Thanks ☺️👍

Started to wonder if I were the only one. I agree that the keybed is good on the Mp7se but one quickly adapts to rhe touch on the Dgx and then one can play at about the same level, PLUS have so much fun as you said.

If yamaha decides to follow up on the 670 by offering a version with their 3 sensor keys, then I will get that one. Or if Kawai includes an audio interface, bluetooth and optimally some more rhythms/ styles etc I will buy that one. The soeakers of the Dgx are really good and clear. That is an advantage. Lousy speakers are not.

The DGX always had great speakers which belied their power rating. They are indeed better than those on the P515 which I now have.
It's not geared for pro musicians on stage; it'd have line outs for that. But it can be used just as well with the headphone socket, and the memory banks are superbly useful, as are the brass sounds if you're doing some intimate gigs.
Where it does fall down is when you might want to split the keyboard using RH for say, sax or trumpet, whilst the LH would be piano accomp. You cannot apply reverb etc etc to the LH voices on previous DGXs. This might have been remedied, but you could still manage anyway at a pinch.
Might do to ignore Abdol. You'll get little sense out of him.
Posted By: Djengis Re: Yamaha DGX-670 vs Kawai MP7se - 04/09/21 10:49 PM
Definitely the memory banks are really useful and functional. One can save four completely different scenarios with volume changes, variation of the Style, effects, choice of instruments etc. Perhaps this makes having zones redundant. One can switch instantaneously between two scenarious. Yes one can have a max of two layers and a left hand voice two implying a split.
But how often does one use that many layers?

Instead there are great accompaniments which can be simplified to make space for ones playing.

I can not take Abdol serious as you say, unless I were a very self destructive man.

Besides I forgot to correct him that there is compression and a LOT of professional effects. If that is not professional I don't know...

I know that the recordings are of high quality including the vocals.
It is a gift to have such easy, well thought through UI and simple working flow, yet powerful features and varieties.

Yes I like the keybed of the Mp7se but it imposes so many other challenges, which I don't have to worry about with the DGX 670.
I prefer the easy road to creating, being a spontaneous improvisor.
So simple to just plug the microphone and record it with the playing or together with an already recorded midi song.
Posted By: peterws Re: Yamaha DGX-670 vs Kawai MP7se - 04/10/21 07:37 AM
You are gonna have loads of fun! I used mine mainly for piano but the orchestral stuff is marvellous. If you wanted to see any of my stuff it's on YT under Peter Robin. "Me a bike and a piano" willl get you there . . . smile
Posted By: Djengis Re: Yamaha DGX-670 vs Kawai MP7se - 04/10/21 10:43 AM
Great, I surely will check out your stuff soon. My son uses my pc because his Roblox account doesn't work, so I will do it later. ☺️
Posted By: Djengis Re: Yamaha DGX-670 vs Kawai MP7se - 04/13/21 05:20 AM
I want to add that I prefer the weighting and counter weight of the Kawai keys. I understand very well why it was awarded the best digital piano 3 years in a row (the last 3 I think). I have great controle with playing difficult and fast paced Chopin pieces and other composers as well. I feel that I have a difficulty to time for example Fantasie Impromptu by Chopin, with the Yamaha GHS, though I manage it, but I have to use talent to do so.

One could argue as various professional musicians have told me, that making it harder (including listening to the not optimal sound while recording) makes you perform better.

But I wish to have a DGX670 Xx with the keybed of the Mp7se which is fantastic.
I still stand by my words: That the overall winner is DGX670.

The reason is to find in the above. Also I wish to say that the socalled ivory touch is an overrated gimmick.

Who has sweaty hands??? I think those are not the average people: I met only one person who had this as an illness. I really don't buy that silly argument: who the heck invented that???

Actually my fingers sit more firmly on the Yamaha keys. They slip more on the Kawai keys.

I give the Yamaha 100 points (point of reference) and the Kawai 75 points (to be fair) speaking as a creative artist who likes simplicity and not wasting one's time on nerding around.
I am not an amateur friends! I am a composer.
Read, listen and learn if you are smart!
Posted By: Djengis Re: Yamaha DGX-670 vs Kawai MP7se - 04/13/21 05:44 AM
Nice music Peter and nice bumby film although the sound quality could be improved I guess.
I guess you are from either Great Britain some where, or an aussie. I lean towards my first guess: Perhaps due to the buildings and your Elton John type of music. I have lived in the UK myself.
Posted By: Djengis Re: Yamaha DGX-670 vs Kawai MP7se - 04/13/21 05:56 AM
Another cool thing about the DGX670 which I love is that I can overview all the tracks with one push of a button and silence or activate which ones I want. Say if you use some style and there is a piano riff as part of it but now you want to suddenly play the piano (before you played the synth for ex) and then you wish to remove the piano of that style. It is just one click (well two). You can then save those scenes (up to 4) and press them while playing, realtime.

Some might think: Oh he might be paid by Yamaha. Reheaally. Such good piano needs just some honest people's appreciation.
Posted By: Djengis Re: Yamaha DGX-670 vs Kawai MP7se - 04/13/21 06:55 AM
So as said I stick to my word about the Dgx being an excellent stage piano apart from the foolish idea to force one to buy the stand in order to use the pedal. That is REALLY FOOLISH YAMAHA! It is like offering a talented musician a great stage piano but saying he has to not use his feet (like the Yip Man movie). Well foolish from the musicians perspective but strategical perhaps in terms of market share. Still I believe if you wanna earn money then add a great keybed and some free pedals like Kawai and then you will have a great market share

The looks? It is fine to me. You know fashion is a funny thing. It changes. The music is what is important.
Posted By: peterws Re: Yamaha DGX-670 vs Kawai MP7se - 04/13/21 08:29 AM
Originally Posted by Djengis
Nice music Peter and nice bumby film although the sound quality could be improved I guess.
I guess you are from either Great Britain some where, or an aussie. I lean towards my first guess: Perhaps due to the buildings and your Elton John type of music. I have lived in the UK myself.

Bumpy film and Elton John!
Has it come to this? (looks for a hard wall to bash his head on; finds only plasterboard ones)

Never been an Elton fan. And the bumpy film was what the camera and me experience on our roads now! Bike riding is a bumpy business even without accidents; you either love it or hate it.
But that is the Bike and the DGX from my viewpoint; they both gave me what I want. I do not want perfection, it's sterile.

Pity about the stand being extra. I'd noticed that too. But they're not too expensive and maybe some special offers may come your way!
Posted By: magicpiano Re: Yamaha DGX-670 vs Kawai MP7se - 04/13/21 11:34 AM
Originally Posted by Djengis
[...]I feel that I have a difficulty to time for example Fantasie Impromptu by Chopin, with the Yamaha GHS, though I manage it, but I have to use talent to do so.[...]
Why? What are your issues with playing that piece on the GHS action, compared to the Kawai RHIII?
Quote
[...]But I wish to have a DGX670 Xx with the keybed of the Mp7se which is fantastic.[...]
Shame on Yamaha for not putting a MIDI-IN port to let you play the DGX-670 from other keyboards.
Quote
I still stand by my words: That the overall winner is DGX670.
Yes, I also think oranges are better than apples if you want to make an orange soda. laugh
Quote
The reason is to find in the above. Also I wish to say that the socalled ivory touch is an overrated gimmick.

Who has sweaty hands??? I think those are not the average people: I met only one person who had this as an illness. I really don't buy that silly argument: who the heck invented that???
Maybe it depends on the age of the player, the time of the year (season), the humidity level in your room and your predisposition to sweat (which is not the same for everyone). But it's more common than what you think and it's not a disease (unless it is very prominent in every season).
Quote
Actually my fingers sit more firmly on the Yamaha keys. They slip more on the Kawai keys.
Maybe you suffer from too dry fingers? grin
Posted By: Björn from Earth Re: Yamaha DGX-670 vs Kawai MP7se - 04/13/21 11:58 AM
What a completely absurd thread ...
Posted By: Pete14 Re: Yamaha DGX-670 vs Kawai MP7se - 04/13/21 12:34 PM
Too-Dry-Fingers is a real condition and it must be taken seriously!

I suffer from it, so I know what I’m talking about, fingers that are ‘too-dry’, and yes, I’ve tried over-the-counter lube, but the fingers go thru that lube like it was candy, yet the dryness remains.

Right now I’m having trouble writing this because my fingers are so dry that they stick like little geckos onto the keys.

So please, do not call this ‘absurd’ because one day you might wake up with too-dry-fingers, and then it won’t be so absurd, will it?
Posted By: EinLudov Re: Yamaha DGX-670 vs Kawai MP7se - 04/13/21 01:02 PM
I'd like to hear some reports from the too-wet-fingers crowd, kawai or yamaha keys. laugh
Posted By: peterws Re: Yamaha DGX-670 vs Kawai MP7se - 04/13/21 01:05 PM
Everybody (almost) knows that you read between the lines of so called absurd threads to gain knowledge. Religious books are full of what might be termed absudities by many.
Read between the lines, lad. Between the lines! Find the Hidden Wisdom that makes our world go around. . . . .
Posted By: EinLudov Re: Yamaha DGX-670 vs Kawai MP7se - 04/13/21 01:07 PM
Originally Posted by peterws
Everybody (almost) knows that you read between the lines of so called absurd threads to gain knowledge. Religious books are full of what might be termed absudities by many.
Read between the lines, lad. Between the lines! Find the Hidden Wisdom that makes our world go around. . . . .

So what you're saying is, Atheism, This is the way?
Posted By: magicpiano Re: Yamaha DGX-670 vs Kawai MP7se - 04/13/21 01:32 PM
Originally Posted by Pete14
[...]and yes, I’ve tried over-the-counter lube, but the fingers go thru that lube like it was candy, yet the dryness remains.[...]
So I guess that's the backstory about how you created the famous Candy Lube:

[Linked Image]

You can get light speed playing with your fingers lubed in Candy Lube! And as a bonus the piano keys would taste good! What a tasty slippery fun!
Posted By: Pete14 Re: Yamaha DGX-670 vs Kawai MP7se - 04/13/21 01:46 PM
Yes!

I’m now working on fifty shades of lube, candy lube!

The original -blue- is our best seller, so we figured why not give ‘em another 49 shades of that there blue!

I’m about to go public, so if you’ve been bent over the fence (no pun intended) about investing your hard earned money, here’s the chance of your life!
Posted By: Abdol Re: Yamaha DGX-670 vs Kawai MP7se - 04/13/21 02:11 PM
In all seriousness, DGX670 compared to MOXF8 is like a toy.

The OP never owned a complicated instrument, made a wrong decision buying a stage piano, and he is saying stage pianos are not as arrangers!

He also never tried to learn how to use MOXF and gave up. The stuff you can sequence and arrange on MOXF are far better than DGX670.
Posted By: peterws Re: Yamaha DGX-670 vs Kawai MP7se - 04/13/21 05:47 PM
Originally Posted by EinLudov
Originally Posted by peterws
Everybody (almost) knows that you read between the lines of so called absurd threads to gain knowledge. Religious books are full of what might be termed absudities by many.
Read between the lines, lad. Between the lines! Find the Hidden Wisdom that makes our world go around. . . . .

So what you're saying is, Atheism, This is the way?

I'm saying read between the line. There's more to it than meets the eye.
Maybe to some it's pie in the sky.
Maybe it's a life supine.
Posted By: Djengis Re: Yamaha DGX-670 vs Kawai MP7se - 04/14/21 03:32 PM
Originally Posted by Abdol
In all seriousness, DGX670 compared to MOXF8 is like a toy.

The OP never owned a complicated instrument, made a wrong decision buying a stage piano, and he is saying stage pianos are not as arrangers!

He also never tried to learn how to use MOXF and gave up. The stuff you can sequence and arrange on MOXF are far better than DGX670.

You crack me up with your black white thinking. Did you own the Moxf8? You had the motif I think you said. I don't think it is easy to find anything more complicated and non user friendly than the moxf8. The only thing making it tolerable would be for the motif owners, for who's fault that bad layout was maintained.

So trust me I know how to use, it but it was completely unorganised and without a meaningful working flow plus the manual was the worst I ever saw.
I never had a synth before that (apart from synth sounds of the Cp5), but that was a lot of wasted time on finding well hidden functions.

If you like wasting your time and are proud about being a tech focused geek, that is your choice, but spare me from your generalising commentaries and respect the true musicians who don't seek any pride in being a nasty judgmental gear geek.
Posted By: James H Re: Yamaha DGX-670 vs Kawai MP7se - 04/14/21 03:36 PM
Absurdities aside, I find it interesting how subjectively different people's experience of actions is. I grew up playing an old Bluthner upright with extremely light, fast action and an old Steinway Model M which I would consider more balanced and wonderfully controllable. When I auditioned a lot of digital pianos a few years ago having spent some time on the Steinway for reference, the only ones that played anything like real pianos to my fingers were the top-end Roland (RD800 or 700NX?) and the Kawai MP6 (no MP10/11 to try then). But, they each felt heavier and more fatiguing than my acoustic pianos - more like the modern pianos in schools (eg 'Knight' here in the UK) rather than the fine response of the older instruments. Every Yamaha I have ever played felt like sluggish mush to my fingers, and I'd include my very limited experience of the acoustics in that. I currently have a CP50 and it's slow going!

Anyway, I wonder if and how 'fashions' for acoustic actions have changed over time? I have barely touched full concert sized pianos, but my one go on a bigger Steinway felt and sounded similar to my little M. I would LOVE a digital that had the same feel as that M - maybe I do need to try the MP11se?! I have an inkling it would feel heavier, though.

As to sliding fingers, wet or dry, unfortunately nothing beats actual ebony and ivory - though the textured keys are better than nothing. Maybe rip the tops off an old junk piano and stick them on a VPC1!
Posted By: EinLudov Re: Yamaha DGX-670 vs Kawai MP7se - 04/14/21 03:36 PM
Japan is actually quite notorious for designing bad machine UI.
Posted By: Abdol Re: Yamaha DGX-670 vs Kawai MP7se - 04/14/21 05:07 PM
Originally Posted by Djengis
Originally Posted by Abdol
In all seriousness, DGX670 compared to MOXF8 is like a toy.

The OP never owned a complicated instrument, made a wrong decision buying a stage piano, and he is saying stage pianos are not as arrangers!

He also never tried to learn how to use MOXF and gave up. The stuff you can sequence and arrange on MOXF are far better than DGX670.

You crack me up with your black white thinking. Did you own the Moxf8? You had the motif I think you said. I don't think it is easy to find anything more complicated and non user friendly than the moxf8. The only thing making it tolerable would be for the motif owners, for who's fault that bad layout was maintained.

So trust me I know how to use, it but it was completely unorganised and without a meaningful working flow plus the manual was the worst I ever saw.
I never had a synth before that (apart from synth sounds of the Cp5), but that was a lot of wasted time on finding well hidden functions.

If you like wasting your time and are proud about being a tech focused geek, that is your choice, but spare me from your generalising commentaries and respect the true musicians who don't seek any pride in being a nasty judgmental gear geek.

Sorry but you're very wrong. I had a MOX6 and upgraded to MOTIF XF because MOX couldn't address my needs.

It's not for everyone. If you couldn't learn/use it, many like me can and demand even more. Samplers don't have anything techy about them.

Also, I never wasted my time. I'm fine with both creating/improving voices and sequencing my own patterns.

One thing you don't know is that these styles are all templates. If you know how to operate your machine, you can make far better ones.



So we get to this point where I have to say, your statement reminds me of finding the stupid problem:

I don't think Yamaha is stupid by making these instruments. MOTIF and Montage etc sell pretty well and the workflow actually has a logic behind it. Now you go and find the stupid.
Posted By: peterws Re: Yamaha DGX-670 vs Kawai MP7se - 04/14/21 05:14 PM
Originally Posted by Abdol
Originally Posted by Djengis
Originally Posted by Abdol
In all seriousness, DGX670 compared to MOXF8 is like a toy.

The OP never owned a complicated instrument, made a wrong decision buying a stage piano, and he is saying stage pianos are not as arrangers!

He also never tried to learn how to use MOXF and gave up. The stuff you can sequence and arrange on MOXF are far better than DGX670.

You crack me up with your black white thinking. Did you own the Moxf8? You had the motif I think you said. I don't think it is easy to find anything more complicated and non user friendly than the moxf8. The only thing making it tolerable would be for the motif owners, for who's fault that bad layout was maintained.

So trust me I know how to use, it but it was completely unorganised and without a meaningful working flow plus the manual was the worst I ever saw.
I never had a synth before that (apart from synth sounds of the Cp5), but that was a lot of wasted time on finding well hidden functions.

If you like wasting your time and are proud about being a tech focused geek, that is your choice, but spare me from your generalising commentaries and respect the true musicians who don't seek any pride in being a nasty judgmental gear geek.

Sorry but you're very wrong. I had a MOX6 and upgraded to MOTIF XF because MOX couldn't address my needs.

It's not for everyone. If you couldn't learn/use it, many like me can and demand even more. Samplers don't have anything techy about them.

Also, I never wasted my time. I'm fine with both creating/improving voices and sequencing my own patterns.

One thing you don't know is that these styles are all templates. If you know how to operate your machine, you can make far better ones.



So we get to this point where I have to say, your statement reminds me of finding the stupid problem:

I don't think Yamaha is stupid by making these instruments. MOTIF and Montage etc sell pretty well and the workflow actually has a logic behind it. Now you go and find the stupid.

Abdol! You condition is by all accounts treatable. There are other colours than black and white you know.
Posted By: EinLudov Re: Yamaha DGX-670 vs Kawai MP7se - 04/14/21 05:16 PM
Originally Posted by peterws
Abdol! You condition is by all accounts treatable. There are other colours than black and white you know.

peter, abdol doesn't seem to care about digital pianos, his condition is that he likes the sound of his own voice the most.
Posted By: mmatthew Re: Yamaha DGX-670 vs Kawai MP7se - 04/14/21 06:26 PM
Originally Posted by EinLudov
Japan is actually quite notorious for designing bad machine UI.

I don't understand; how do you mean?
Posted By: peterws Re: Yamaha DGX-670 vs Kawai MP7se - 04/14/21 06:52 PM
Originally Posted by EinLudov
Originally Posted by peterws
Abdol! You condition is by all accounts treatable. There are other colours than black and white you know.

peter, abdol doesn't seem to care about digital pianos, his condition is that he likes the sound of his own voice the most.

Hmmm. What medical condition might that be then? Aurala Borealitis?
Posted By: EinLudov Re: Yamaha DGX-670 vs Kawai MP7se - 04/14/21 07:09 PM
Originally Posted by peterws
Hmmm. What medical condition might that be then? Aurala Borealitis?

I'm sure he doesn't mean any harm, but heck, if abdol cuts his voice into a vst, I'd buy it and unleash it upon my enemies.
Posted By: Sweelinck Re: Yamaha DGX-670 vs Kawai MP7se - 04/14/21 07:35 PM
I've played the DGX keyboards. The sounds certainly are reasonably high quality. The action is not very responsive. I was not able to play the repeated notes in the 2nd theme of the Eb Grande Valse Brillante reliably.

While it is fine for a variety of musical styles, and I even considered buying one to use as a travel keyboard, I would not use the keyboard for a public performance for three reasons:

1) I don't think the action is engineered for heavy usage, and a failure during a gig would be especially problematic.

2) The only line output is the headphone output which, when amplified, will amplify the noise of the headphone output stage.

3) Getting a sufficient gain from the output so that the reinforced sound by the performance sound system fills the performance space may lead to clipping at the headphone output stage. Sending clipped output to a downstream sound system is undesirable.

I personally heard the cringe-worthy results of 2 and 3 at a wedding reception where a relative of the bride brought a similar Yamaha keyboard that was routed into the PA system being used for music/dance so that the relative could play a few pieces for the young couple. The owner of the PAs was lucky to get out of there with tweeters intact.
Posted By: EinLudov Re: Yamaha DGX-670 vs Kawai MP7se - 04/14/21 10:37 PM
I don't know exactly how their dgx670 combination port works, but there's a software toggle between headphone and line out. I'm assuming yamaha can make something as simple as this work.
Posted By: Djengis Re: Yamaha DGX-670 vs Kawai MP7se - 04/14/21 11:48 PM
Originally Posted by Sweelinck
I've played the DGX keyboards. The sounds certainly are reasonably high quality. The action is not very responsive. I was not able to play the repeated notes in the 2nd theme of the Eb Grande Valse Brillante reliably.

While it is fine for a variety of musical styles, and I even considered buying one to use as a travel keyboard, I would not use the keyboard for a public performance for three reasons:

1) I don't think the action is engineered for heavy usage, and a failure during a gig would be especially problematic.

2) The only line output is the headphone output which, when amplified, will amplify the noise of the headphone output stage.

3) Getting a sufficient gain from the output so that the reinforced sound by the performance sound system fills the performance space may lead to clipping at the headphone output stage. Sending clipped output to a downstream sound system is undesirable.

I personally heard the cringe-worthy results of 2 and 3 at a wedding reception where a relative of the bride brought a similar Yamaha keyboard that was routed into the PA system being used for music/dance so that the relative could play a few pieces for the young couple. The owner of the PAs was lucky to get out of there with tweeters intact.

Thanks for the info and sparing me from insults. I will dig into it to know if it holds water. I know a guy from Yamaha whi might know or will find it out for me.
Posted By: Sweelinck Re: Yamaha DGX-670 vs Kawai MP7se - 04/15/21 03:27 AM
If you own the keyboard, you should be able to verify youself directly. The problems with feeding headphone output into a PA or keyboard amp for performance are not limited to Yamaha keyboards.
Posted By: Djengis Re: Yamaha DGX-670 vs Kawai MP7se - 04/15/21 04:34 AM
I never had this problem with the DGXes which I hooked up with PAs before, but of course I don't like unexpected problems. What I heard is that the headphone outlet works basically as a line out.
Posted By: Djengis Re: Yamaha DGX-670 vs Kawai MP7se - 04/15/21 04:45 AM
I never had this problem with the DGXes which I hooked up with PAs before, but of course I don't like unexpected problems. What I heard is that the headphone outlet works basically as a line out.

I think it is quite surprising that a good arranger keyboard with weighted keys hasn't come into light before now.

I can't see why there is this separation of arranger players from virtuose pianists. It is like either yiu are a pianist and then the arrangee territory is forbidden territory, or you like weighted keys but cannot have the fun side too.

Is this not just a discriminating fractioning of the market (not meant as a mee too statement)?
Posted By: Sweelinck Re: Yamaha DGX-670 vs Kawai MP7se - 04/15/21 05:00 AM
It does function as a line out. Output level is low compared to +4dBu pro line level that a PA expects. The question becomes whether you can get enough volume to fill a performance space without driving the gain of the headphone output stage to the point of distortion or clipping. The answer is that it will vary with the power and efficiency of the PA. Here is some info:

https://www.sweetwater.com/insync/headphone-outputs-used-line-outputs-for-line-level-gear/
Posted By: peterws Re: Yamaha DGX-670 vs Kawai MP7se - 04/15/21 05:46 AM
Originally Posted by Sweelinck
It does function as a line out. Output level is low compared to +4dBu pro line level that a PA expects. The question becomes whether you can get enough volume to fill a performance space without driving the gain of the headphone output stage to the point of distortion or clipping. The answer is that it will vary with the power and efficiency of the PA. Here is some info:

https://www.sweetwater.com/insync/headphone-outputs-used-line-outputs-for-line-level-gear/

I used one myself at a wedding; it sounded good the waitress said. Better than the Bluthner baby in the next room. You'll never get a bad sound with a Yamaha but it is heavy and not made for the road.
Posted By: Djengis Re: Yamaha DGX-670 vs Kawai MP7se - 04/15/21 06:45 AM
Originally Posted by peterws
[quote=Sweelinck]It does function as a line out. Output level is low compared to +4dBu pro line level that a PA expects. The question becomes whether you can get enough volume to fill a performance space without driving the gain of the headphone output stage to the point of distortion or clipping. The answer is that it will vary with the power and efficiency of the PA. Here is some info:

https://www.sweetwater.com/insync/headphone-outputs-used-line-outputs-for-line-level-gear/

Nice guide thanks 🙏

Quote
I used one myself at a wedding; it sounded good the waitress said. Better than the Bluthner baby in the next room. You'll never get a bad sound with a Yamaha but it is heavy and not made for the road.

You mean a DGX. It could seem as if they kind of insinuate that it is meant for home use, since the tripple pedal only works with the heavy not so portable stand.

Yet again it might not mean that it is not suitable for use with a good PA.
Posted By: Djengis Re: Yamaha DGX-670 vs Kawai MP7se - 04/15/21 06:56 AM
Originally Posted by EinLudov
I don't know exactly how their dgx670 combination port works, but there's a software toggle between headphone and line out. I'm assuming yamaha can make something as simple as this work.
I agree with you. Yamaha is the most reliable company if you look at the amount of complaints or repairs, I read (but cannot back this up).
Posted By: Djengis Re: Yamaha DGX-670 vs Kawai MP7se - 04/15/21 07:03 AM
By the way Peterws I discovered the country is posted for some including you. No need to play the detective /Sherlock.
I myself love and play Eltons music, mostly in my own improvising way although probably heavily influenced by his style. Yes what I heard by you could be anyone: I don't know why I thought of Elton. Perhaps because not many bands are piano based so one easily associates with Elton.
Posted By: Djengis Re: Yamaha DGX-670 vs Kawai MP7se - 04/15/21 07:14 AM
Originally Posted by magicpiano
Originally Posted by Djengis
[...]I feel that I have a difficulty to time for example Fantasie Impromptu by Chopin, with the Yamaha GHS, though I manage it, but I have to use talent to do so.[...]
Why? What are your issues with playing that piece on the GHS action, compared to the Kawai RHIII?
Quote
[...]But I wish to have a DGX670 Xx with the keybed of the Mp7se which is fantastic.[...]
Shame on Yamaha for not putting a MIDI-IN port to let you play the DGX-670 from other keyboards.
Quote
I still stand by my words: That the overall winner is DGX670.
Yes, I also think oranges are better than apples if you want to make an orange soda. laugh
Quote
The reason is to find in the above. Also I wish to say that the socalled ivory touch is an overrated gimmick.

Who has sweaty hands??? I think those are not the average people: I met only one person who had this as an illness. I really don't buy that silly argument: who the heck invented that???
Maybe it depends on the age of the player, the time of the year (season), the humidity level in your room and your predisposition to sweat (which is not the same for everyone). But it's more common than what you think and it's not a disease (unless it is very prominent in every season).
Quote
Actually my fingers sit more firmly on the Yamaha keys. They slip more on the Kawai keys.
Maybe you suffer from too dry fingers? grin
Sorry I kind of went backwards to answer.
Yes my fingers tend to be dry as the skin of elephants.

What I noticed when playing say Fantasie Impromptu, was that I felt the counterweight of the Rh3 made me able to better time the playing of the keys, whereas with the GHS which is somewhat lighter and has what is probably called counterweights (what I described as a constant resistance (not to be a french rebel) when pressing down a key), it might be harder to keep up with the rhythm / timing of each keystroke. It is doable but it requires more of a delicate controle of the keys to time the strokes perfectly.
Posted By: Djengis Re: Yamaha DGX-670 vs Kawai MP7se - 04/15/21 07:26 AM
I did not correct it in time...

Sorry I kind of went backwards to answer.
Yes my fingers tend to be dry as the skin of elephants.

What I noticed when playing say Fantasie Impromptu, was that I felt the counterweight of the Rh3 made me able to better time the playing of the keys and has what is probably called counterweights (what I described as a constant resistance (not to be a french rebel) when pressing down a key), whereas with the GHS which is somewhat lighter, it might be harder to keep up with the rhythm / timing of each keystroke. It is doable but it requires more of a delicate controle of the keys to time the strokes perfectly.
Posted By: Djengis Re: Yamaha DGX-670 vs Kawai MP7se - 04/15/21 07:44 AM
Originally Posted by EinLudov
Originally Posted by peterws
Everybody (almost) knows that you read between the lines of so called absurd threads to gain knowledge. Religious books are full of what might be termed absudities by many.
Read between the lines, lad. Between the lines! Find the Hidden Wisdom that makes our world go around. . . . .

So what you're saying is, Atheism, This is the way?
In the case of certain religions I prefer the atheist people since then they are more openminded, but also because I don't like religions consisting of human made restricting doctrines.

I believe in God and love. Who don't comply with being loving I don't trust or follow. So naturally I believe in Jesus. But I don't judge other people due to their religion. I just hope they seek to be loving which is the only commandment of Jesus and God. (However only God's children can love).
What Christianity has been made to be during 2000 years, seldomly concurs with the words of Jesus. But only the humans are to blame of that since we are born free, at least mentally if in shackles.
Posted By: Sweelinck Re: Yamaha DGX-670 vs Kawai MP7se - 04/15/21 07:56 AM
Originally Posted by peterws
Originally Posted by Sweelinck
It does function as a line out. Output level is low compared to +4dBu pro line level that a PA expects. The question becomes whether you can get enough volume to fill a performance space without driving the gain of the headphone output stage to the point of distortion or clipping. The answer is that it will vary with the power and efficiency of the PA. Here is some info:

https://www.sweetwater.com/insync/headphone-outputs-used-line-outputs-for-line-level-gear/

I used one myself at a wedding; it sounded good the waitress said. Better than the Bluthner baby in the next room. You'll never get a bad sound with a Yamaha but it is heavy and not made for the road.

My own experience refutes the never in your statement. If the PA or keyboard amp is overpowered for the size space, you can use gain staging to avoid distortion and clipping. There is a reason more pro-oriented keyboards have both a headphone output and line level output.
Posted By: Djengis Re: Yamaha DGX-670 vs Kawai MP7se - 04/15/21 08:01 AM
I reckon you imply to turn down the gain.
Posted By: peterws Re: Yamaha DGX-670 vs Kawai MP7se - 04/15/21 09:59 AM
Originally Posted by Sweelinck
Originally Posted by peterws
Originally Posted by Sweelinck
It does function as a line out. Output level is low compared to +4dBu pro line level that a PA expects. The question becomes whether you can get enough volume to fill a performance space without driving the gain of the headphone output stage to the point of distortion or clipping. The answer is that it will vary with the power and efficiency of the PA. Here is some info:

https://www.sweetwater.com/insync/headphone-outputs-used-line-outputs-for-line-level-gear/

I used one myself at a wedding; it sounded good the waitress said. Better than the Bluthner baby in the next room. You'll never get a bad sound with a Yamaha but it is heavy and not made for the road.

My own experience refutes the never in your statement. If the PA or keyboard amp is overpowered for the size space, you can use gain staging to avoid distortion and clipping. There is a reason more pro-oriented keyboards have both a headphone output and line level output.

I suppose there had to be. The recipient amplifier has a lot to do with it; they used to have high gain and lo-gain inputs. probably still do for all I know..But the Yamaha sound is always good until it's taken away from the Yamaha device from whence it came . . .or unless a non-Yamaha designated person plays it.
That ok? smile
Posted By: magicpiano Re: Yamaha DGX-670 vs Kawai MP7se - 04/15/21 10:45 AM
Originally Posted by Djengis
[...]What I noticed when playing say Fantasie Impromptu, was that I felt the counterweight of the Rh3 made me able to better time the playing of the keys and has what is probably called counterweights (what I described as a constant resistance (not to be a french rebel) when pressing down a key), whereas with the GHS which is somewhat lighter, it might be harder to keep up with the rhythm / timing of each keystroke. It is doable but it requires more of a delicate controle of the keys to time the strokes perfectly.
I'm not into physics but I think the counterweights in the keys are useful when a keyboard action uses heavier hammers (compared to those in the low-range hammer actions like the Yamaha GHS or the Kawai RHC). With heavier hammers you need more force to get a fortissimo sound (so, you feel somehow you have more fine control on dynamics in the upper range of velocities -- assuming the piano engine is good enough) but this heaviness would make you feel much fatigue when playing in the ppp/pp range. So a counterweight is required to make a key feel less heavy when you depress it slowly, and easier to keep it depressed.
I think a side-effect of the counterweight is the slightly increased "rebound" when a key is released and returns to its upper position.

Personally, when I tried the GHS action (in a Yamaha P125) I was positively impressed by the ease with which I was able to make fast repetitions and trills without thinking too much, while on the RHIII action I have to focus more on timing and the right amount of force applied if I don't want to get some ghost note... As a beginner I think a light action like the GHS is much easier to play, but I guess an intermediate/advanced classical player would appreciate more the fine control you can get on an heavier action.
Posted By: EinLudov Re: Yamaha DGX-670 vs Kawai MP7se - 04/15/21 12:42 PM
Originally Posted by magicpiano
Personally, when I tried the GHS action (in a Yamaha P125) I was positively impressed by the ease with which I was able to make fast repetitions and trills without thinking too much, while on the RHIII action I have to focus more on timing and the right amount of force applied if I don't want to get some ghost note... As a beginner I think a light action like the GHS is much easier to play, but I guess an intermediate/advanced classical player would appreciate more the fine control you can get on an heavier action.

When you remove the letoff, there's going to be a difference in sensation. That's going to impact perception and the timing that the player is used to. I'm not sure the let off or additional weight gives someone more control, but it may make the action more similar to what they were used to. That may induce the player to think or feel more in control even if the underlying travel and sensor read hasn't changed.
Posted By: Abdol Re: Yamaha DGX-670 vs Kawai MP7se - 04/15/21 12:52 PM
Originally Posted by Djengis
I never had this problem with the DGXes which I hooked up with PAs before, but of course I don't like unexpected problems. What I heard is that the headphone outlet works basically as a line out.

I think it is quite surprising that a good arranger keyboard with weighted keys hasn't come into light before now.

I can't see why there is this separation of arranger players from virtuose pianists. It is like either yiu are a pianist and then the arrangee territory is forbidden territory, or you like weighted keys but cannot have the fun side too.

Is this not just a discriminating fractioning of the market (not meant as a mee too statement)?


Yep. It hadn't had come to light before ... until you discovered this miracle of Yamaha.

You can also play Casio's SA-21 on the stage. Nothing is wrong with doing it.
Posted By: magicpiano Re: Yamaha DGX-670 vs Kawai MP7se - 04/15/21 02:00 PM
Originally Posted by EinLudov
Originally Posted by magicpiano
Personally, when I tried the GHS action (in a Yamaha P125) I was positively impressed by the ease with which I was able to make fast repetitions and trills without thinking too much, while on the RHIII action I have to focus more on timing and the right amount of force applied if I don't want to get some ghost note... As a beginner I think a light action like the GHS is much easier to play, but I guess an intermediate/advanced classical player would appreciate more the fine control you can get on an heavier action.

When you remove the letoff, there's going to be a difference in sensation. That's going to impact perception and the timing that the player is used to. I'm not sure the let off or additional weight gives someone more control, but it may make the action more similar to what they were used to. That may induce the player to think or feel more in control even if the underlying travel and sensor read hasn't changed.
When you play fast you cannot feel the (fake) let-off, so I don't think that is the problem. Paradoxically the let-off is more a problem when you play in the pp range, because your brain thinks you are applying a certain amount of force, then, suddenly, you feel a little resistance that changes the resulting velocity of the key travel to the bottom.
Posted By: EinLudov Re: Yamaha DGX-670 vs Kawai MP7se - 04/15/21 02:54 PM
Originally Posted by magicpiano
When you play fast you cannot feel the (fake) let-off, so I don't think that is the problem. Paradoxically the let-off is more a problem when you play in the pp range, because your brain thinks you are applying a certain amount of force, then, suddenly, you feel a little resistance that changes the resulting velocity of the key travel to the bottom.

You can still feel the letoff when playing fast, it's like a light rubber band snapping at the end of the key. Without the letoff, it feels a bit like a sponge.
Posted By: Djengis Re: Yamaha DGX-670 vs Kawai MP7se - 04/15/21 04:30 PM
Originally Posted by magicpiano
Originally Posted by Djengis
[...]What I noticed when playing say Fantasie Impromptu, was that I felt the counterweight of the Rh3 made me able to better time the playing of the keys and has what is probably called counterweights (what I described as a constant resistance (not to be a french rebel) when pressing down a key), whereas with the GHS which is somewhat lighter, it might be harder to keep up with the rhythm / timing of each keystroke. It is doable but it requires more of a delicate controle of the keys to time the strokes perfectly.
I'm not into physics but I think the counterweights in the keys are useful when a keyboard action uses heavier hammers (compared to those in the low-range hammer actions like the Yamaha GHS or the Kawai RHC). With heavier hammers you need more force to get a fortissimo sound (so, you feel somehow you have more fine control on dynamics in the upper range of velocities -- assuming the piano engine is good enough) but this heaviness would make you feel much fatigue when playing in the ppp/pp range. So a counterweight is required to make a key feel less heavy when you depress it slowly, and easier to keep it depressed.
I think a side-effect of the counterweight is the slightly increased "rebound" when a key is released and returns to its upper position.

Personally, when I tried the GHS action (in a Yamaha P125) I was positively impressed by the ease with which I was able to make fast repetitions and trills without thinking too much, while on the RHIII action I have to focus more on timing and the right amount of force applied if I don't want to get some ghost note... As a beginner I think a light action like the GHS is much easier to play, but I guess an intermediate/advanced classical player would appreciate more the fine control you can get on an heavier action.

Yes I agree that perhaps mostly an advanced player will appreciate it but as said the GHS works really well and it is just a feeling when things go fast that due to the less weighted keys one might realise that having a bit more heaviness might make one able to better time it, but as you said it might require some more finger strength. Once it is there one will appreciate the ability to controle and time the keystrokes.

The place I noticed it was when I had to go back and forth between adjacent notes, so also the technique and kinds of fingers used has a big impact on this.

So in reality this phenomenon (feeling out of controle or that some notes don't seem so distinct and separate) is not often a matter with the Yamaha GHS, but I noticed it with certain passages like at the start of fantasie impromptu when you play d major, c major, d major then c major again.
As said it may highly owe to the use of adjacent fingers. Thus when I make thrills I prefer to use the second and fourth finger.
But I make up for the slight lack of momentum by emphatising every single note by emphatising the finger movements.
Posted By: Djengis Re: Yamaha DGX-670 vs Kawai MP7se - 04/15/21 04:42 PM
Darn, again this time limit.

Let me say that GHS is by no means unweighted and I only encountered named issue in certain situations. Generally I can play fast and emotional virtuose passages with ease on the DGX. And the advantage is you don't tire though playing for an extended period of time.

The advantages of the DGX far "outweigh" (😉) the small points of challenge.

I think that being spoiled might be a disadvantage if one suddenly has to play on a less weighted keybed. I think in terms of training and improving, GHS might be better and especially for not heavy fingers or less strong hands.
Posted By: peterws Re: Yamaha DGX-670 vs Kawai MP7se - 04/15/21 05:22 PM
Originally Posted by Djengis
So in reality this phenomenon (feeling out of controle or that some notes don't seem so distinct and separate) is not often a matter with the Yamaha GHS, but I noticed it with certain passages like at the start of fantasie impromptu when you play d major, c major, d major then c major again.
As said it may highly owe to the use of adjacent fingers. Thus when I make thrills I prefer to use the second and fourth finger.
But I make up for the slight lack of momentum by emphatising every single note by emphatising the finger movements.

My own experience was mixed. The black keys were a tad fat, as were my fingers to play between them. It was a case of "Don't go there!" but now and again you have to. The much vaunted "Fantasie" became "Distopian" whrn you encounter those quad notes towards the end of the first page. For that reason (it was the only part I couldn't play; the rest I could, but badly).I changed my piano.
I still couldn't manage these, and I tend to do other things now (non-piano) instead.
But who knows? maybe one day . . . .
Playing different numbers of notes in the right and left hands is mental anyway!
Posted By: Djengis Re: Yamaha DGX-670 vs Kawai MP7se - 04/15/21 05:37 PM
Originally Posted by Abdol
Originally Posted by Djengis
I never had this problem with the DGXes which I hooked up with PAs before, but of course I don't like unexpected problems. What I heard is that the headphone outlet works basically as a line out.

I think it is quite surprising that a good arranger keyboard with weighted keys hasn't come into light before now.

I can't see why there is this separation of arranger players from virtuose pianists. It is like either yiu are a pianist and then the arrangee territory is forbidden territory, or you like weighted keys but cannot have the fun side too.

Is this not just a discriminating fractioning of the market (not meant as a mee too statement)?

Yep. It hadn't had come to light before ... until you discovered this miracle of Yamaha.

You can also play Casio's SA-21 on the stage. Nothing is wrong with doing it.
I wonder what you hope to obtain with this (quoting you) middle East kind of humour: Seems rather personal to me.

Ask Jesus regarding any bitterness and that shall set you free.
But perhaps it is just your way, and I don't want to take it personal. We all have our ways.
Perhaps I can view it as a test of not taking unbefriended peoples Words more serious than God who loves me.

Enough with this melancholy (which only to me is beneficial to my music but not my health).

Abdol, I think DGX is a splendid piano and I am like a faithful junkie towards Yamaha: Apart from the MOXF8 which brought me to frustation due to feeling dissociated between loving it and hating its user interface.

I don't believe in quarreling over diverse opinions. I once learned that we should make peace, for example with our beloved ones (family etc) before going to sleep /before the sun goes down. I intend to honour this wisdom/ honour God.
Posted By: Djengis Re: Yamaha DGX-670 vs Kawai MP7se - 04/15/21 05:55 PM
Originally Posted by peterws
Originally Posted by Djengis
So in reality this phenomenon (feeling out of controle or that some notes don't seem so distinct and separate) is not often a matter with the Yamaha GHS, but I noticed it with certain passages like at the start of fantasie impromptu when you play d major, c major, d major then c major again.
As said it may highly owe to the use of adjacent fingers. Thus when I make thrills I prefer to use the second and fourth finger.
But I make up for the slight lack of momentum by emphatising every single note by emphatising the finger movements.

My own experience was mixed. The black keys were a tad fat, as were my fingers to play between them. It was a case of "Don't go there!" but now and again you have to. The much vaunted "Fantasie" became "Distopian" whrn you encounter those quad notes towards the end of the first page. For that reason (it was the only part I couldn't play; the rest I could, but badly).I changed my piano.
I still couldn't manage these, and I tend to do other things now (non-piano) instead.
But who knows? maybe one day . . . .
Playing different numbers of notes in the right and left hands is mental anyway!

Haha. Don't get what you mean about the black keys being fat. Well the quad notes are everywhere even at the start. There only is a pause exchanged for the first right hand one.
Also either watch videos by a good teacher or have one, to know how to play it. Once you know how to have the four tones inthe right and 3 in the left, the rest is just rehearsing.

I think don't give up if you love playing. Rather make yourself comfortable. Perhaps the MP7 se will help you with those quads. I love the Kawai keybed and my son favors the sound over the Yamaha, even through the Presonus which don't justify the true sound (and I was do happy about them but perhaps it is simply a mismatch for some reason since they generally are splendid.

Did you play the MP7 se? I just wanted to prefer the yamaha due to me wanting the whole shebang (mic and ease of recording straight away).

I keep on dreaming about the mp7se and Dgx 670 making a love child.
Posted By: magicpiano Re: Yamaha DGX-670 vs Kawai MP7se - 04/15/21 06:12 PM
Originally Posted by EinLudov
Originally Posted by magicpiano
When you play fast you cannot feel the (fake) let-off, so I don't think that is the problem. Paradoxically the let-off is more a problem when you play in the pp range, because your brain thinks you are applying a certain amount of force, then, suddenly, you feel a little resistance that changes the resulting velocity of the key travel to the bottom.

You can still feel the letoff when playing fast, it's like a light rubber band snapping at the end of the key. Without the letoff, it feels a bit like a sponge.
As I said before, I'm not able to feel the small resistance of the (fake) let-off on my RHIII action when I'm playing a fast trill or a fast repeating note or a fast scale. I have to play very slowly to feel it.
Posted By: Sweelinck Re: Yamaha DGX-670 vs Kawai MP7se - 04/15/21 06:24 PM
Originally Posted by peterws
Originally Posted by Sweelinck
Originally Posted by peterws
Originally Posted by Sweelinck
It does function as a line out. Output level is low compared to +4dBu pro line level that a PA expects. The question becomes whether you can get enough volume to fill a performance space without driving the gain of the headphone output stage to the point of distortion or clipping. The answer is that it will vary with the power and efficiency of the PA. Here is some info:

https://www.sweetwater.com/insync/headphone-outputs-used-line-outputs-for-line-level-gear/

I used one myself at a wedding; it sounded good the waitress said. Better than the Bluthner baby in the next room. You'll never get a bad sound with a Yamaha but it is heavy and not made for the road.

My own experience refutes the never in your statement. If the PA or keyboard amp is overpowered for the size space, you can use gain staging to avoid distortion and clipping. There is a reason more pro-oriented keyboards have both a headphone output and line level output.

I suppose there had to be. The recipient amplifier has a lot to do with it; they used to have high gain and lo-gain inputs. probably still do for all I know..But the Yamaha sound is always good until it's taken away from the Yamaha device from whence it came . . .or unless a non-Yamaha designated person plays it.
That ok? smile

It is a subtle point, but if the keyboard output level is too low, below the standard line level spec which the PA uses as its input sensitivity range, requiring the gain of the PA to be set too high, up in the range where the PA clips, then it is the fault of the keyboard for having too low of an output level. If the headphone output stage had to be set too high and it clips, that is another problem. And the noise level of a headphone output may be low enough not to hear it with headphones, but audible when further amplified.

PA amps and keyboard amps are not particularly high fidelity, so it is desirable for the keyboard not to force them out of their sweet spot with low output level.

The DGX keyboard I played had a different action from the DGX-670 so my comment about the action is not relevant.

I cannot find any reference in the owner's manual to a firmware feature to adjust the output level range.
Posted By: Djengis Re: Yamaha DGX-670 vs Kawai MP7se - 04/15/21 06:45 PM
Peterws, actually the Kawai ES 920 has got the same keybed as the Mp 7se PLUS it has bluetooth. I strongly considered it but decided not to, due to few sounds. But if beautiful piano is your thing I'd probably go with that model: Only 17 kg and loudspeakers. I don't recall if it has audio over Midi though.
But with the DGX I prefer recording the audio to a thumb drive, then select and later take it to my DAW or if ok raw then that. I believe the es 920 includes the thumb drive option. Strange if not.
I don't even know if you are out for a new piano, so if not I am speaking to those who are. ☺️
Posted By: Djengis Re: Yamaha DGX-670 vs Kawai MP7se - 04/15/21 07:19 PM
Originally Posted by magicpiano
@Djengis:
I think the GHS is a very nice and light keyboard action.

I agree RHIII is not light at all and after some time of playing it tires your fingers, especially if you are an adult beginner and you are learning classical piano music where you have fast trills, repeated notes, octaves, big chords, passages where you have some fingers more near the fallboard, or where your hand remains in the same position and your fingers quickly alternate between bichords (1-3, 2-4, 3-5, 2-4, 1-3 and so on). I think these things are much less tiring to do on a light keyboard action like the Yamaha GHS or the Kawai RHC compared to the less cheap Yamaha NWX or the Kawai RHIII. But I guess the latters could make the transition to a real acoustic easier... Or is it just a metropolitan legend?

Anyway I don't think you should compare 2 instruments designed for different targets in mind. We are talking about a very generic multi-purpose digital piano/arranger VS a professional stage piano with 4 independent zones you can mix/split/etc... The MP7SE doesn't even have internal speakers (that's standard with professional stage equipment) and it was designed to work as a MIDI controller too.

IMHO, as a professional stage piano, the MP7SE is absolutely unrivaled in its price range. And it's sturdy and beautiful looking too.

Anyway, as a generic DP, if I look at the specs and price, the DGX-670 looks a very nice product and it has a great value for money. But if I look at its pictures I'm crying! It's very bulky, fat, ugly looking to me and just for this I would never buy it... Just a quick comparison of the looks:

[Linked Image]
[Linked Image]

As you can notice, the first is clearly all plastic (and has a strange looking shape in the back). The other one has an elegant looking metal case.

But as I said before, they are 2 different products for different targets and use cases (and for very different aesthetic tastes!).
Yes the Mp7 se is a beauty but the DGX670 is really sturdily built. It is by no means fragile or plastic in its overall feel. Very strong bottom too. I don't think the DGX is ugly in any way. Also the sound is 1 million times more important unless the audience is only attracted to looks but not the sound.

To me the looks is completely irrelevant in a piano. Or I buy an expensive grand piano hybrid piano. But for the practical purpose of making music, I could not care less really.
Posted By: Frédéric L Re: Yamaha DGX-670 vs Kawai MP7se - 04/15/21 08:21 PM
The question is surprising. If the purpose is to have a small cost 88 keys arranger, why comparing with the MP7SE ? DGX670 vs Korg Havian (or Korg XE80) would be a more pertinent question.

DGX670 vs MP7SE is like comparing a sedan car and a pickup. Ok, they have both 4 wheels... and the best depends of the use case.
Posted By: Abdol Re: Yamaha DGX-670 vs Kawai MP7se - 04/15/21 08:34 PM
Originally Posted by Djengis
...
Ask Jesus regarding any bitterness and that shall set you free.
...
Enough with this melancholy (which only to me is beneficial to my music but not my health).
...
Abdol, I think DGX is a splendid piano and I am like a faithful junkie towards Yamaha:
...
I don't believe in quarreling over diverse opinions. I once learned that we should make peace, for example with our beloved ones (family etc) before going to sleep /before the sun goes down. I intend to honour this wisdom/ honour God.


My religion is all about dos and don'ts. So it's hard to imagine how it can help me to be free. I don't know much about Jesus though.

Anyway I see where you're coming from.
Posted By: magicpiano Re: Yamaha DGX-670 vs Kawai MP7se - 04/15/21 08:49 PM
Originally Posted by Djengis
[...]To me the looks is completely irrelevant in a piano. Or I buy an expensive grand piano hybrid piano. But for the practical purpose of making music, I could not care less really.
Of course it has to sound good, but personally, I'm very sensitive to the looks of an instrument... If I had to buy a digital piano for a recording studio or for gigging maybe the looks would have no much importance, but for something to put inside my house it has to look good too, especially when we are considering a very large instrument like a DP with 88-keys. To each his own! wink
Posted By: peterws Re: Yamaha DGX-670 vs Kawai MP7se - 04/15/21 11:11 PM
Originally Posted by Djengis
Peterws, actually the Kawai ES 920 has got the same keybed as the Mp 7se PLUS it has bluetooth. I strongly considered it but decided not to, due to few sounds. But if beautiful piano is your thing I'd probably go with that model: Only 17 kg and loudspeakers. I don't recall if it has audio over Midi though.
But with the DGX I prefer recording the audio to a thumb drive, then select and later take it to my DAW or if ok raw then that. I believe the es 920 includes the thumb drive option. Strange if not.
I don't even know if you are out for a new piano, so if not I am speaking to those who are. ☺️

No, I don't want a new piano. My P515 is lovely to play, suits my fingers well and Pianoteq is wonderful now. I moght try F.I. again for fun. But my fingers were never very fast, and they're a darn sight slower now!
Playing actually helps them a lot.
Posted By: Sweelinck Re: Yamaha DGX-670 vs Kawai MP7se - 04/16/21 08:25 PM
Originally Posted by magicpiano
Originally Posted by EinLudov
Originally Posted by magicpiano
Personally, when I tried the GHS action (in a Yamaha P125) I was positively impressed by the ease with which I was able to make fast repetitions and trills without thinking too much, while on the RHIII action I have to focus more on timing and the right amount of force applied if I don't want to get some ghost note... As a beginner I think a light action like the GHS is much easier to play, but I guess an intermediate/advanced classical player would appreciate more the fine control you can get on an heavier action.

When you remove the letoff, there's going to be a difference in sensation. That's going to impact perception and the timing that the player is used to. I'm not sure the let off or additional weight gives someone more control, but it may make the action more similar to what they were used to. That may induce the player to think or feel more in control even if the underlying travel and sensor read hasn't changed.
When you play fast you cannot feel the (fake) let-off, so I don't think that is the problem. Paradoxically the let-off is more a problem when you play in the pp range, because your brain thinks you are applying a certain amount of force, then, suddenly, you feel a little resistance that changes the resulting velocity of the key travel to the bottom.

If you only plan to play digital pianos, it doesn't matter so much, just choose an action that works for you. But if your primary instrument(s) to play or perform on are acoustic pianos, then translation of digital practice sessions to the acoustic instrument matters, and the closer emulation is beneficial.
Posted By: Djengis Re: Yamaha DGX-670 vs Kawai MP7se - 04/17/21 11:25 AM
Originally Posted by Sweelinck
Originally Posted by magicpiano
Originally Posted by EinLudov
Originally Posted by magicpiano
Personally, when I tried the GHS action (in a Yamaha P125) I was positively impressed by the ease with which I was able to make fast repetitions and trills without thinking too much, while on the RHIII action I have to focus more on timing and the right amount of force applied if I don't want to get some ghost note... As a beginner I think a light action like the GHS is much easier to play, but I guess an intermediate/advanced classical player would appreciate more the fine control you can get on an heavier action.

When you remove the letoff, there's going to be a difference in sensation. That's going to impact perception and the timing that the player is used to. I'm not sure the let off or additional weight gives someone more control, but it may make the action more similar to what they were used to. That may induce the player to think or feel more in control even if the underlying travel and sensor read hasn't changed.
When you play fast you cannot feel the (fake) let-off, so I don't think that is the problem. Paradoxically the let-off is more a problem when you play in the pp range, because your brain thinks you are applying a certain amount of force, then, suddenly, you feel a little resistance that changes the resulting velocity of the key travel to the bottom.

If you only plan to play digital pianos, it doesn't matter so much, just choose an action that works for you. But if your primary instrument(s) to play or perform on are acoustic pianos, then translation of digital practice sessions to the acoustic instrument matters, and the closer emulation is beneficial.

I completely agree: If one does not care about this nostalgy in emulating all the pros and cons of an acoustic piano, nor needs to frequently play on those, then I don't really see any need for escapement.
Posted By: Djengis Re: Yamaha DGX-670 vs Kawai MP7se - 04/17/21 11:28 AM
Originally Posted by peterws
Originally Posted by Djengis
Peterws, actually the Kawai ES 920 has got the same keybed as the Mp 7se PLUS it has bluetooth. I strongly considered it but decided not to, due to few sounds. But if beautiful piano is your thing I'd probably go with that model: Only 17 kg and loudspeakers. I don't recall if it has audio over Midi though.
But with the DGX I prefer recording the audio to a thumb drive, then select and later take it to my DAW or if ok raw then that. I believe the es 920 includes the thumb drive option. Strange if not.
I don't even know if you are out for a new piano, so if not I am speaking to those who are. ☺️

No, I don't want a new piano. My P515 is lovely to play, suits my fingers well and Pianoteq is wonderful now. I moght try F.I. again for fun. But my fingers were never very fast, and they're a darn sight slower now!
Playing actually helps them a lot.
Right, I agree the P515 has a great feel to it. Yes no need to change that one I think.
Posted By: Djengis Re: Yamaha DGX-670 vs Kawai MP7se - 04/17/21 11:29 AM
Originally Posted by magicpiano
Originally Posted by Djengis
[...]To me the looks is completely irrelevant in a piano. Or I buy an expensive grand piano hybrid piano. But for the practical purpose of making music, I could not care less really.
Of course it has to sound good, but personally, I'm very sensitive to the looks of an instrument... If I had to buy a digital piano for a recording studio or for gigging maybe the looks would have no much importance, but for something to put inside my house it has to look good too, especially when we are considering a very large instrument like a DP with 88-keys. To each his own! wink

Surely the looks is good to have, but if not ghastly ugly I don't mind so much, although I like to have some style at home too.
Posted By: Djengis Re: Yamaha DGX-670 vs Kawai MP7se - 04/17/21 11:30 AM
Originally Posted by Frédéric L
The question is surprising. If the purpose is to have a small cost 88 keys arranger, why comparing with the MP7SE ? DGX670 vs Korg Havian (or Korg XE80) would be a more pertinent question.

DGX670 vs MP7SE is like comparing a sedan car and a pickup. Ok, they have both 4 wheels... and the best depends of the use case.

I don't compare according to price but according to needs.
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