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Posted By: iceryan Pianoteq in 5.1 is fabulous - 02/24/21 03:29 PM
Just wanted to say. If ypu have a 5.1 amp and speaker setup that takes hdmi input, then it is SUPER FUN to place custom mics im custom positions to match your room and keyboard placement and play that sucker loud through pianoteq and a pc/laptop...

Pianoteq allows five simultaneous outputs on my setup, each output can match a mic position similar to corresponding speaker etc. I send a blend/open lid mic to the subwoofer.

(i dont use center channel speaker in my setup. You could. And have your amp extract subwoofer frequencies rather than send dedicated output to subwoofer...)

So nice.

If this is well known setup, then forgive my post, but i al so super happy with this setup wanted to share.

Ciao!
Posted By: MacMacMac Re: Pianoteq in 5.1 is fabulous - 02/24/21 04:39 PM
So ... Pianoteq can be made to sound awful from five speakers instead of just two? Ho, hum. frown
Posted By: Chordo24 Re: Pianoteq in 5.1 is fabulous - 02/24/21 05:02 PM
Originally Posted by MacMacMac
So ... Pianoteq can be made to sound awful from five speakers instead of just two? Ho, hum. frown

I always enjoy such surprisingly intelligent, sensible and humorous replies!
Posted By: EPW Re: Pianoteq in 5.1 is fabulous - 02/24/21 05:18 PM
Yep another Pianoteq attack by MacMacMac. Hmm maybe he should change his name
to MackTheKnife wink smile
Posted By: MacMacMac Re: Pianoteq in 5.1 is fabulous - 02/24/21 05:37 PM
Some like Pianoteq, and they say so.
I don't, and I say so.
And so?
Posted By: EPW Re: Pianoteq in 5.1 is fabulous - 02/24/21 06:06 PM
It is not that you don't like it MacMacMac it is that every time you have a chance to insult it you take the opportunity. How about let other users decide for themselves.

Peace.

P.S. Hope you settled into your new home and didn't get too much snow!
Posted By: JayKominek Re: Pianoteq in 5.1 is fabulous - 02/24/21 06:11 PM
Originally Posted by iceryan
Just wanted to say. If ypu have a 5.1 amp and speaker setup that takes hdmi input, then it is SUPER FUN to place custom mics im custom positions to match your room and keyboard placement and play that sucker loud through pianoteq and a pc/laptop...

Can I inquire as to exactly what hardware you've got in that HDMI chain? I have a little garbage keyboard on my main desktop, and using any VST at all, with the audio coming out my graphics card (over HDMI), and going into a home theater receiver, the latency was excruciating. I stopped using HDMI and went back to audio over one of the analog outputs, and no problem. But that can't do 2.1, let alone 5.1. frown

I did try positioning my pianoteq mics to match my speaker positions, I felt that slightly improved the... "realism"? perhaps? of the output.

If Pianoteq allowed you to programmatically move the microphones in realtime, I'd get a kick out of setting up a Kinect, or other body/motion tracking thing to move the mics in sync with your body. (And then wearing headphones of course.) I can't imagine it would be practical, but it'd be a fun little programming exercise, and I'd like to know if the result would even be perceptible.
Posted By: lvercaut Re: Pianoteq in 5.1 is fabulous - 02/24/21 06:13 PM
From version 7.2 it's even fabulous in 2.0.
Hated before (version 4,5) Adore 7.2 now !
Posted By: Osho Re: Pianoteq in 5.1 is fabulous - 02/24/21 06:43 PM
Originally Posted by iceryan
So nice.

Can you post a picture of your setup? Are you able to sit in the middle of the 5.1 setup? If so, this sounds very intriguing !

Osho
Posted By: Tyr Re: Pianoteq in 5.1 is fabulous - 02/24/21 07:21 PM
Maybe in a far future, MacMacMac will turn into TeqTeqTeq!
Posted By: EPW Re: Pianoteq in 5.1 is fabulous - 02/24/21 07:32 PM
Originally Posted by Tyr
Maybe in a far future, MacMacMac will turn into TeqTeqTeq!
That's too funny
Posted By: MacMacMac Re: Pianoteq in 5.1 is fabulous - 02/24/21 07:45 PM
Not so. It's been quite some time since I said anything about PT.
Originally Posted by EPW
It is not that you don't like it MacMacMac it is that every time you have a chance to insult it you take the opportunity. How about let other users decide for themselves.
And products cannot be insulted. Products have no feelings. That might change someday when AI becomes more advanced. But not yet.

Originally Posted by EPW
P.S. Hope you settled into your new home and didn't get too much snow!
We did ... on both counts.
It took two months to get most things set up. It's now nearly three, and I can finally say "done"!
And we did get lots of snow. More than I've seen in a long time.
But I think we're now done. The temps are in the 50s today, and the forecast calls for temps well above freezing for weeks to come.

So ... with the house all done and the weather on the uptick ... and the second dose of vaccine coming next Monday ... there's just one thing left to do: find that new piano.
Posted By: Ralphiano Re: Pianoteq in 5.1 is fabulous - 02/24/21 08:45 PM
Originally Posted by iceryan
Just wanted to say. If ypu have a 5.1 amp and speaker setup that takes hdmi input, then it is SUPER FUN to place custom mics im custom positions to match your room and keyboard placement and play that sucker loud through pianoteq and a pc/laptop...

Pianoteq allows five simultaneous outputs on my setup, each output can match a mic position similar to corresponding speaker etc. I send a blend/open lid mic to the subwoofer.

(i dont use center channel speaker in my setup. You could. And have your amp extract subwoofer frequencies rather than send dedicated output to subwoofer...)

So nice.

If this is well known setup, then forgive my post, but i al so super happy with this setup wanted to share.

Ciao!

Not well known, or, at least, talked about around here. No apology needed.

If your 5.1 amp is a home theater surround unit, you might want to check out the Dolby/DTS processing capacity. Even with just a stereo signal, you might get some surround processing out of it. Mine apparently can extract sounds that are common to the left and right channels, and compile them into their own signal stream that gets sent to the Center channel. So, you might find some sound improvement possibilities by utilizing your unit's Center channel capabilities.

I just posted a thread detailing sound improvement from using the VST "Pan" controls along with the Dolby/DTS processor to get a more realistic soundstage from my digital piano and VST. You might find some of that interesting for your current adventure.

Good luck to you!

And, your thread will be polluted by a lot of Pianoteq commentary, extraneous to your topic. Don't worry about that. Members will still contribute whatever knowledge they have that they think will be helpful. It's a great community.


Originally Posted by JayKominek
Originally Posted by iceryan
Just wanted to say. If ypu have a 5.1 amp and speaker setup that takes hdmi input, then it is SUPER FUN to place custom mics im custom positions to match your room and keyboard placement and play that sucker loud through pianoteq and a pc/laptop...

Can I inquire as to exactly what hardware you've got in that HDMI chain? I have a little garbage keyboard on my main desktop, and using any VST at all, with the audio coming out my graphics card (over HDMI), and going into a home theater receiver, the latency was excruciating. I stopped using HDMI and went back to audio over one of the analog outputs, and no problem. But that can't do 2.1, let alone 5.1. frown

I did try positioning my pianoteq mics to match my speaker positions, I felt that slightly improved the... "realism"? perhaps? of the output.

Is it possible that using HDMI for audio is the latency culprit? It seems it wouldn't be, since a fundamental goal of the home theater receiver is to make the audio synchronize with the video. But, then again, since the HDMI does not have to synchronize with anything outside the receiver (like a real time piano), maybe it does just fine processing slowly, and latency is not an issue.

Last week I purchased a USB to Toslink converter so I can go directly from my computer to my home theater receiver's digital optical input. I'm hoping this will allow my digital signal to use the receiver's own internal DAC, and hoping that the internal DAC is well integrated to the audio amplifier section so as to produce nice piano sound. It is due to arrive tomorrow, so, I will know soon. This will differ from your setup slightly, as, I will not have to use the HDMI input to the DAC. I will go straight from a USB output on the computer to the optical Toslink input of the receiver. My fingers are crossed.
Posted By: Ralphiano Re: Pianoteq in 5.1 is fabulous - 02/24/21 11:12 PM
Originally Posted by Ralphiano
Originally Posted by JayKominek
Originally Posted by iceryan
Just wanted to say. If ypu have a 5.1 amp and speaker setup that takes hdmi input, then it is SUPER FUN to place custom mics im custom positions to match your room and keyboard placement and play that sucker loud through pianoteq and a pc/laptop...

Can I inquire as to exactly what hardware you've got in that HDMI chain? I have a little garbage keyboard on my main desktop, and using any VST at all, with the audio coming out my graphics card (over HDMI), and going into a home theater receiver, the latency was excruciating. I stopped using HDMI and went back to audio over one of the analog outputs, and no problem. But that can't do 2.1, let alone 5.1. frown

Is it possible that using HDMI for audio is the latency culprit? It seems it wouldn't be, since a fundamental goal of the home theater receiver is to make the audio synchronize with the video. But, then again, since the HDMI does not have to synchronize with anything outside the receiver (like a real time piano), maybe it does just fine processing slowly, and latency is not an issue.

Last week I purchased a USB to Toslink converter so I can go directly from my computer to my home theater receiver's digital optical input. I'm hoping this will allow my digital signal to use the receiver's own internal DAC, and hoping that the internal DAC is well integrated to the audio amplifier section so as to produce nice piano sound. It is due to arrive tomorrow, so, I will know soon. This will differ from your setup slightly, as, I will not have to use the HDMI input to the DAC. I will go straight from a USB output on the computer to the optical Toslink input of the receiver. My fingers are crossed.

Hooray!!! My stuff arrived a day early.

The USB to Tosliink (optical) device is:
LINKFOR USB to Optical device

It works like a charm. There is NO ADDITIONAL LATENCY!

So, my digital Garritan CFX signal leaves the computer via USB, gets converted to optical by the new device, and enters my Pioneer Home Theater receiver via one of its Toslink inputs. The internal DAC in the Pioneer sounds as good as any of the external DACs I have tried. And, of course, the amplifier sound sooooooo good.

This is the best my Garrittan CFX has ever sounded.

Try abandoning the HDMI connection and use the optical input, instead.
Posted By: Ralphiano Re: Pianoteq in 5.1 is fabulous - 02/24/21 11:17 PM
Oh, I forgot to mention:

Amazon jacked up the price on the converter by $6 after I bought mine. It instantly went up from $16.99 to $22.99.

What a bunch of grovelling, money grubbing, opportunistic, parasites! These people would slit their own grandmothers open if they thought she had swallowed a nickel.
Posted By: JayKominek Re: Pianoteq in 5.1 is fabulous - 02/25/21 01:35 AM
Originally Posted by Ralphiano
Is it possible that using HDMI for audio is the latency culprit?

Uhh. Well, it isn't literally HDMI, as the signals will move down TDMS over copper just as fast or faster than they'll move on any other copper. Rather, I expect that it is the entire graphics / graphics card stack which is necessary in order to get the audio data dropped on to the HDMI cable right next to the video signals.

Originally Posted by Ralphiano
It seems it wouldn't be, since a fundamental goal of the home theater receiver is to make the audio synchronize with the video. But, then again, since the HDMI does not have to synchronize with anything outside the receiver (like a real time piano), maybe it does just fine processing slowly, and latency is not an issue.

Depending on the audio/video source, the receiver can be as latent as it wants, so long as the audio and video stay in sync. You'll never notice if your DVD appearing on the screen 5ms after the DVD player decodes the disc, or 50ms.

Originally Posted by Ralphiano
Last week I purchased a USB to Toslink converter so I can go directly from my computer to my home theater receiver's digital optical input.

That's a class compliant USB audio interface with an optical output. It'll probably work just as well as whatever is on your motherboard.

Originally Posted by Ralphiano
Try abandoning the HDMI connection and use the optical input, instead.

The only way to send 5.1 audio over an optical link is to compress it. There are (to my knowledge, and I spent more than 30 seconds working on this problem), no still-in-production computer sound cards which can DTS/AC3 compress the audio and send it out over optical.

5.1 being the whole point of the exercise... I'll pass, thanks.

Plenty of PCs (mine included) have enough audio outputs to handle 5.1, but I also can't find a receiver or reasonably priced amplifier which can actually accept a bunch of channels of analog input. That feature was dropped ~15 years ago.
Posted By: iceryan Re: Pianoteq in 5.1 is fabulous - 02/25/21 09:57 AM
Hi, quick reply from the phone..

-hdmi carries multi channel umcompressed audio froþ an i7 gigabyte brix windows pc running pianoteq. I am able to use Windows Audio driver with no latency issues. Sound driver set for max resolution 192 and 5.1 audio

-optical/coax can't carry more than two channels without compression, processing

-my sony amp STR-DH590 is in "pure direct" mode... No processing, just delivering each signal direct to correspomding speaker. No latency problem thankfully. The fault would lie with the amp if there was.

-Will post some photos, screenshots of setup soom

-Obligatory digression of pianoteq itself: all views welcome. Mine happens to be this: Pianoteq is a toolkit. It can literally sound like anything from a space phaser to a warm thud depending on the settings. I'm sure soþe vsts or keyboards have sounds that sound "good/natural" out of the box. Maybe pianoteq is less lile that and the beauty/ugliness is in tje infinite tweaking. I happen to enjoy that smile preference for some models over others along with strategic detuning and warmth /room/reverb/mic placement - now matching a 4D space with my 3 sensor studiologic sl88 studio keyboard and continuous sustain pedal.... Im quite satisfied.

Enjoying all the discussion. Greetings from the woods of Icelandic countryside.

Also fwiw - note the correlation between setting the mhz resolution on setup- DEVICE page vs PERFORMANCE page. I get the LEAST latency (observed by "ms" number in samples selection) by selecting my max resolution here: 192. And then on performance tab it can be set to whatever your system can actually handle. I have 128 on performance tab and 1920 samples.

I also removed noisy stock fan on brix i7 and wedged a quiet 80mm fan on top (perfect tight fit without screws) and performance capabilities shot up.
Posted By: iceryan Re: Pianoteq in 5.1 is fabulous - 02/25/21 10:02 AM
Originally Posted by Ralphiano
Originally Posted by Ralphiano
Originally Posted by JayKominek
Originally Posted by iceryan
Just wanted to say. If ypu have a 5.1 amp and speaker setup that takes hdmi input, then it is SUPER FUN to place custom mics im custom positions to match your room and keyboard placement and play that sucker loud through pianoteq and a pc/laptop...

Can I inquire as to exactly what hardware you've got in that HDMI chain? I have a little garbage keyboard on my main desktop, and using any VST at all, with the audio coming out my graphics card (over HDMI), and going into a home theater receiver, the latency was excruciating. I stopped using HDMI and went back to audio over one of the analog outputs, and no problem. But that can't do 2.1, let alone 5.1. frown

Is it possible that using HDMI for audio is the latency culprit? It seems it wouldn't be, since a fundamental goal of the home theater receiver is to make the audio synchronize with the video. But, then again, since the HDMI does not have to synchronize with anything outside the receiver (like a real time piano), maybe it does just fine processing slowly, and latency is not an issue.

Last week I purchased a USB to Toslink converter so I can go directly from my computer to my home theater receiver's digital optical input. I'm hoping this will allow my digital signal to use the receiver's own internal DAC, and hoping that the internal DAC is well integrated to the audio amplifier section so as to produce nice piano sound. It is due to arrive tomorrow, so, I will know soon. This will differ from your setup slightly, as, I will not have to use the HDMI input to the DAC. I will go straight from a USB output on the computer to the optical Toslink input of the receiver. My fingers are crossed.

Hooray!!! My stuff arrived a day early.

The USB to Tosliink (optical) device is:
LINKFOR USB to Optical device

It works like a charm. There is NO ADDITIONAL LATENCY!

So, my digital Garritan CFX signal leaves the computer via USB, gets converted to optical by the new device, and enters my Pioneer Home Theater receiver via one of its Toslink inputs. The internal DAC in the Pioneer sounds as good as any of the external DACs I have tried. And, of course, the amplifier sound sooooooo good.

This is the best my Garrittan CFX has ever sounded.

Try abandoning the HDMI connection and use the optical input, instead.

But i have no problem with hdmi smile im glad your setup sounds great, that's the endgame. No latency issue here when i use "pure direct" mode and no processing from amp. Letting pianoteq room/mic setup send direct reverb /delay signal to each matching speaker.
Posted By: Pete14 Re: Pianoteq in 5.1 is fabulous - 02/25/21 11:59 AM
It would be interesting to be able to run Pianoteq through the N1X’s four-channel system. As it stands, the N1X will ‘down-convert’ any incoming signal into stereo, but with some internal tweaking (by-passing) someone could get around that limitation and route four mics to four speakers respectively (two speakers left for ambient sound)?
Posted By: JayKominek Re: Pianoteq in 5.1 is fabulous - 02/25/21 04:47 PM
Originally Posted by iceryan
-hdmi carries multi channel umcompressed audio froþ an i7 gigabyte brix windows pc running pianoteq. I am able to use Windows Audio driver with no latency issues. Sound driver set for max resolution 192 and 5.1 audio

Interesting, thanks. The Gigabyte Brix uses the builtin Intel video chipset. As opposed to the nVidia card I'm using.

Originally Posted by iceryan
-my sony amp STR-DH590 is in "pure direct" mode... No processing, just delivering each signal direct to correspomding speaker. No latency problem thankfully. The fault would lie with the amp if there was.

Ok, so a standard home theater receiver. It might be better/higher performing/something than my now many years old Onkyo.

The "pure direct" mode, whatever that actually entails, might also be helpful. If I replace the receiver I'm using I'll certainly keep an eye out for that (and any references to gaming modes, where you'd also want to reduce the total latency between input to the receiver, and output).

Originally Posted by iceryan
Also fwiw - note the correlation between setting the mhz resolution on setup- DEVICE page vs PERFORMANCE page. I get the LEAST latency (observed by "ms" number in samples selection) by selecting my max resolution here: 192. And then on performance tab it can be set to whatever your system can actually handle. I have 128 on performance tab and 1920 samples.

Yeah I could see increasing the sampling rate helping a bit, and I'd certainly encourage turning it up as high as your system can handle. I feel like that probably didn't cause my whole problem, but I should definitely experiment with that if/when I give this another go.
Posted By: Frédéric L Re: Pianoteq in 5.1 is fabulous - 02/25/21 05:29 PM
Originally Posted by Pete14
It would be interesting to be able to run Pianoteq through the N1X’s four-channel system. As it stands, the N1X will ‘down-convert’ any incoming signal into stereo, but with some internal tweaking (by-passing) someone could get around that limitation and route four mics to four speakers respectively (two speakers left for ambient sound)?

The N1X speakers configuration is :

8 cm x 3 + 13 cm x 2 + 16 cm x 1

Perhaps you have 2 left (8 cm + 13cm), 2 right (8 cm + 13cm), and 2 center (8 cm + 16 cm).

Then a 4 channels could be most likely a 3.1 (3 speakers on top + bass), and the 2 13 cm speakers pick something from the 3.

I guess the tweaking quite complex : the USB interface (which should accept 2 more channels), the DSP which mixes the different signals and send them to speakers.
Posted By: Pete14 Re: Pianoteq in 5.1 is fabulous - 02/25/21 06:05 PM
Would you be so kind to take apart your N1X and try this out? wink

Surely, this would not invalidate your warranty unless Yamaha finds out you’ve been tinkering with their speaker system. All you have to do is make sure you can put everything back together in case of an emergency; if you cannot do this, simply tell Yamaha that an intruder got into your N1X while you were sleeping and caused all sorts of heck!
Posted By: Del Vento Re: Pianoteq in 5.1 is fabulous - 02/26/21 12:31 AM
Originally Posted by JayKominek
Plenty of PCs (mine included) have enough audio outputs to handle 5.1, but I also can't find a receiver or reasonably priced amplifier which can actually accept a bunch of channels of analog input. That feature was dropped ~15 years ago.

It seems like the solution of most of our problems is always the same: craigslist.
This seems to have that feature: https://boulder.craigslist.org/ele/d/boulder-onkyo-tx-sr-channel-700-watt/7266841968.html
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