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Posted By: Skyscrapersax Built-In VST / Pianotec? - 12/13/20 04:56 PM
How about a DP with built-in Pianotec and VST instruments?

How about custom made DPs? Select audio / BT in, speaker (size), 76-88, etc? Why "one size fits all"?

Got it as to economies of scale, but I have the impression people are over and underpaying for what they want.

Thoughts?
Posted By: Osho Re: Built-In VST / Pianotec? - 12/13/20 05:24 PM
For the simple reason that there is not enough of a market for these things you mention. Large majority of DP buyers just want to turn DP on and play. Most do not even know what VST is.

Osho
Posted By: Abdol Re: Built-In VST / Pianotec? - 12/13/20 05:28 PM
Originally Posted by Skyscrapersax
How about a DP with built-in Pianotec and VST instruments?

How about custom made DPs? Select audio / BT in, speaker (size), 76-88, etc? Why "one size fits all"?

Got it as to economies of scale, but I have the impression people are over and underpaying for what they want.

Thoughts?

Oh dear... not again.


There is a VST player by MUSE research called Receptor, that does exactly what you want. Loading a VST requires a full OS.

BT and wireless is nonsense. We have not managed to transfer CD quality audio uncompressed wirelessly yet. So BT is completely out of question.

Custom setup Get a stage piano...
Posted By: anotherscott Re: Built-In VST / Pianotec? - 12/13/20 05:41 PM
Originally Posted by Skyscrapersax
How about a DP with built-in Pianotec and VST instruments?
There was one... https://www.crumar.it/?a=showproduct&b=3 It came with Pianoteq, but you could load alternate VSTs if you preferred (see the Specifications tab on that page).

But in general, you could buy your DP or controller of choice, put a Surface Pro on it, and have the same thing, probably at lower cost. Keyboard manufacturers can't make the computer part as cheaply as Microsoft can, or sell at the same volume-based low margins.
Posted By: Pete14 Re: Built-In VST / Pianotec? - 12/13/20 06:11 PM
Originally Posted by anotherscott
Keyboard manufacturers can't make the computer part as cheaply as Microsoft can, or sell at the same volume-based low margins.

Perhaps this is the main reason + having to pay Pianoteq for licensing?

Also, your on-board piano is a VST in the sense that it is virtual and not real. So Yamaha doesn’t need to stick Garritan’s CFX in there; they only need to make their own CFX sample/modeling better. I’m simply assuming Garritan’s rendition is better based on other people’s opinions (I’ve not tried Garritan’s CFX), but truth is that the current offering by Yamaha is very good, and it ‘blends’ beautifully with Pianoteq via the audio interface.
Posted By: Frédéric L Re: Built-In VST / Pianotec? - 12/13/20 07:02 PM
Originally Posted by Skyscrapersax
How about a DP with built-in Pianotec and VST instruments?

How about custom made DPs? Select audio / BT in, speaker (size), 76-88, etc? Why "one size fits all"?

Got it as to economies of scale, but I have the impression people are over and underpaying for what they want.

Thoughts?
About Pianoteq : you can purchase a Steingraeber piano with its Silent module made in collaboration with Modartt. I suppose that the Piano Phoenix by Adel H came from a collaboration with Modartt too (pure speculation).

About “any” VST instrument. A VST instruments is optimized to be controlled with a screen and a mouse. A digital piano has typically a very little screen not usable for most VST. A typical DP should not look like a workstation synthesiser. Then an adaptation of each virtual instrument is needed to use efficiently the available screen/button set.

A custom made DP does exists. It is the Viscount Legends’ 70s where you can choose the keyboard (3 options), and add different sound modules (Acoustic piano, Clavinet, External module) to the default E.Piano and Sound Collection modules.

Some synthesisers did have some extension possible (Motif ES with its PLG cards, Roland synthesisers with SRX cards), but now, the extension is mostly by downloading libraries.
Posted By: Abdol Re: Built-In VST / Pianotec? - 12/13/20 07:33 PM
Originally Posted by anotherscott
Originally Posted by Skyscrapersax
How about a DP with built-in Pianotec and VST instruments?
There was one... https://www.crumar.it/?a=showproduct&b=3 It came with Pianoteq, but you could load alternate VSTs if you preferred (see the Specifications tab on that page).

But in general, you could buy your DP or controller of choice, put a Surface Pro on it, and have the same thing, probably at lower cost. Keyboard manufacturers can't make the computer part as cheaply as Microsoft can, or sell at the same volume-based low margins.

This thing has a windows XP in it. WERSI also has a similar concept.

The point is the loading time. The majority of high-end DPs use microcontrollers that have very simple motherboards, or an on-board tone generator (e.g. Yamaha).

No one is interested in a silly Windows XP embedded in a fake digital piano shell. You can buy a mac mini and hook it under a far better DP.

The loading time is a major factor. I'm will only buy Pianoteq if it's ready to play under 5 seconds including the boot time/stand-by time for the operating system.

Imagine to log-in to your computer to play Pianoteq... how stupid is that?
Posted By: Frédéric L Re: Built-In VST / Pianotec? - 12/13/20 07:51 PM
Originally Posted by Abdol
The majority of high-end DPs use microcontrollers that have very simple motherboards, or an on-board tone generator (e.g. Yamaha).
Yes, my old (2002) piano has a simple Super Hitachi 3 (SH3) CPU too handle user the interface and a SWP50 DSP (Yamaha specific), to produce the sound from a wavetable in ROM. Now the SWP70 (Montage and some Yamaha arrangers) can stream samples directly from NAND flash... no loading times like in most sampled based VST. The way Yamaha works has some important advantage from a DP point of vue (fast boot) over a PC based architecture (the booting time of the Kronos is far too long).
Posted By: MacMacMac Re: Built-In VST / Pianotec? - 12/13/20 10:13 PM
I don't see the point. Every piano already has a VST built-in.
Small caveats:
Except for the VPC.
And, strictly speaking, the built-in sound is not a VST. The tech is a bit different.
Posted By: Frédéric L Re: Built-In VST / Pianotec? - 12/13/20 11:03 PM
Yes, a VST is just a bunch of software which is compliant to the Steinberg’s Virtual Studio Technology. It is not a synonymous of a virtual instrument which can be compliant to something else (AAX, AU, LV2, LADSPA...).

But here what was expected is a DP which can import a VST made for a PC... there are too many issues to fixed (graphic user interface, licence activation, full OS support...) that it won’t happen. The best thing to expect is a partnership with a VST editor which would port the VST engine to a DP platform. Probably easier with Pianoteq which has an ARM version.
Posted By: Otavio Re: Built-In VST / Pianotec? - 12/14/20 12:34 AM
Native has Maschine+(standalone sampler technology), some midi keyboards and some great piano library.
Maybe, in the future, they will combine everything in a unique piece.
A 88 midi controller with Noire/Gentleman vsts built in would be awesome.
Posted By: robinlb Re: Built-In VST / Pianotec? - 12/14/20 12:55 AM
Ptq inside, or Ptq music box.
I think the latter is more possible and convenient, based on ARM structure and built in DAC. Just MIDI USB out and line in from DP.
UI controlling by iPhone or ipad remote connection.
Posted By: MacMacMac Re: Built-In VST / Pianotec? - 12/14/20 01:12 AM
Pianoteq in my piano!!! Nope. I don't even want Pianoteq in my quadrant of the galaxy.
Posted By: Skyscrapersax Re: Built-In VST / Pianotec? - 12/14/20 01:49 AM
Interesting responses for this somewhat multi-part inquiry... ranging from the "forget it" to the "well, maybe...."

I don't know about you swingin' cats, but I get bored with having only "one" piano sound and like the variety that Pianotec and VSTs bring to the table. It's pretty much agreed here that DP manufactures won't spend the coin to put VST level samples in their boxes. (note: I like the sounds from my Kawais very much). But why not join forces? BTW, I successfully ran Pianotec off of a $100 Windows tablet (that had a USB port), for busking with a $100 61 key, ketar-able but unweighted controller. Sounded great.

BTW, the same debate is currently ranging in the wind synth world, with new offerings, but none of them getting it right yet.
Posted By: anotherscott Re: Built-In VST / Pianotec? - 12/14/20 01:56 AM
Originally Posted by Skyscrapersax
BTW, I successfully ran Pianotec off of a $100 Windows tablet (that had a USB port), for busking with a $100 61 key, ketar-able but unweighted controller. Sounded great.
So plug that same Windows tablet into your keyboard of choice (your PX5S, your Numa Compact 2X, whatever), and it sounds like you're all set! Not only have you done it more cheaply than if those companies had built PT into the boards themselves, but you even have the bonus of only having to have bought it once, yet you can use it on any of numerous boards you have or may buy in the future!
Posted By: Abdol Re: Built-In VST / Pianotec? - 12/14/20 06:10 AM
Originally Posted by anotherscott
Originally Posted by Skyscrapersax
BTW, I successfully ran Pianotec off of a $100 Windows tablet (that had a USB port), for busking with a $100 61 key, ketar-able but unweighted controller. Sounded great.
So plug that same Windows tablet into your keyboard of choice (your PX5S, your Numa Compact 2X, whatever), and it sounds like you're all set! Not only have you done it more cheaply than if those companies had built PT into the boards themselves, but you even have the bonus of only having to have bought it once, yet you can use it on any of numerous boards you have or may buy in the future!

Pretty much sums up the story. No point in reinventing the wheel when it's already there. The other solutions mentioned all use this similar setup.

The most extreme case is the Korg KRONOS. Kronos is a plug-in player. I don't know anything about their formats but Korg has its own Linux OS that is capable of loading its own plugins, the 9 engines you see in Kronos.
Posted By: EB5AGV Re: Built-In VST / Pianotec? - 12/14/20 08:01 AM
Originally Posted by Skyscrapersax
Interesting responses for this somewhat multi-part inquiry... ranging from the "forget it" to the "well, maybe...."

I don't know about you swingin' cats, but I get bored with having only "one" piano sound and like the variety that Pianotec and VSTs bring to the table. It's pretty much agreed here that DP manufactures won't spend the coin to put VST level samples in their boxes. (note: I like the sounds from my Kawais very much). But why not join forces? BTW, I successfully ran Pianotec off of a $100 Windows tablet (that had a USB port), for busking with a $100 61 key, ketar-able but unweighted controller. Sounded great.

BTW, the same debate is currently ranging in the wind synth world, with new offerings, but none of them getting it right yet.

My iPad Air 2 with Korg Module and Synthogy Mobile American Grand (and other built-in piano sounds) along a cheap camera kit interface is also a good way to have better piano sound, in my case with my MOX8 I have on an alternate residence.

iPads, even old, have a good potential as sound modules.
Posted By: CyberGene Re: Built-In VST / Pianotec? - 12/14/20 08:20 AM
Buy a Roland and you’ll have a piano similar to Pianoteq, namely an “infinitely tweakable” piano that can be made to recreate any existing or even non-existing piano in the universe, if you’re that type of believer.
Posted By: Doug M. Re: Built-In VST / Pianotec? - 12/14/20 08:53 AM
Originally Posted by MacMacMac
Pianoteq in my piano!!! Nope. I don't even want Pianoteq in my quadrant of the galaxy.

LOL, "I Darth Mac 'your galactic quadrant overlord' hereby ban Pianoteq from my piano and the third spiral of the milky-way, by order of the imperial senate"
Posted By: peterws Re: Built-In VST / Pianotec? - 12/14/20 10:31 AM
Originally Posted by CyberGene
Buy a Roland and you’ll have a piano similar to Pianoteq, namely an “infinitely tweakable” piano that can be made to recreate any existing or even non-existing piano in the universe, if you’re that type of believer.

I don't reckon they're that tweakable. The variations between different pianos in Pianoteq are subtle and reflect the character of the original instrument, I fondly like to think.
Posted By: CyberGene Re: Built-In VST / Pianotec? - 12/14/20 11:12 AM
Originally Posted by peterws
Originally Posted by CyberGene
Buy a Roland and you’ll have a piano similar to Pianoteq, namely an “infinitely tweakable” piano that can be made to recreate any existing or even non-existing piano in the universe, if you’re that type of believer.

I don't reckon they're that tweakable. The variations between different pianos in Pianoteq are subtle and reflect the character of the original instrument, I fondly like to think.
Roland used to offer some weird imaginary models such as “all triple silver strings”, etc but that was the V-Piano. Not sure how much of that tweakability has been reused in the new fully modeled pianos. In any case neither Roland nor Pianoteq are my cup of tea 😉
Posted By: Skyscrapersax Re: Built-In VST / Pianotec? - 12/14/20 04:12 PM
Originally Posted by anotherscott
Originally Posted by Skyscrapersax
BTW, I successfully ran Pianotec off of a $100 Windows tablet (that had a USB port), for busking with a $100 61 key, ketar-able but unweighted controller. Sounded great.
So plug that same Windows tablet into your keyboard of choice (your PX5S, your Numa Compact 2X, whatever), and it sounds like you're all set! Not only have you done it more cheaply than if those companies had built PT into the boards themselves, but you even have the bonus of only having to have bought it once, yet you can use it on any of numerous boards you have or may buy in the future!

And it hardly weighs anything. This illustrates that Pianotec can be easily implemented. I'd rather just use my iPad Mini, though...
Posted By: CyberGene Re: Built-In VST / Pianotec? - 12/14/20 04:16 PM
Skyscrapersax, it is Pianoteq, not Pianotec.
Posted By: Abdol Re: Built-In VST / Pianotec? - 12/14/20 05:07 PM
Originally Posted by Skyscrapersax
Originally Posted by anotherscott
Originally Posted by Skyscrapersax
BTW, I successfully ran Pianotec off of a $100 Windows tablet (that had a USB port), for busking with a $100 61 key, ketar-able but unweighted controller. Sounded great.
So plug that same Windows tablet into your keyboard of choice (your PX5S, your Numa Compact 2X, whatever), and it sounds like you're all set! Not only have you done it more cheaply than if those companies had built PT into the boards themselves, but you even have the bonus of only having to have bought it once, yet you can use it on any of numerous boards you have or may buy in the future!

And it hardly weighs anything. This illustrates that Pianotec can be easily implemented. I'd rather just use my iPad Mini, though...

If it can be easily implemented, then do it my friend, and give us a quote. I already have an iPad.


Originally Posted by CyberGene
Skyscrapersax, it is Pianoteq, not Pianotec.


[Linked Image]


Pianotec differs from Pianoteq. Pianotec can be easily implemented and runs on iPad (Mini in this case).
Posted By: Frédéric L Re: Built-In VST / Pianotec? - 12/14/20 05:20 PM
Could you provide a link. Pianotec is a German acoustic piano shop.

http://www.pianotec.eu/klaviere/verkauf-klaviere/

On the other hand, the virtual piano by Modartt is named Pianoteq whether it runs on Windows, MacOS or Linux.

https://www.modartt.com/try
Posted By: anotherscott Re: Built-In VST / Pianotec? - 12/14/20 05:23 PM
Originally Posted by Skyscrapersax
And it hardly weighs anything. This illustrates that Pianotec can be easily implemented.
Weight tells you nothing about how easily (or how cheaply) something can be done.
Posted By: Frédéric L Re: Built-In VST / Pianotec? - 12/14/20 05:35 PM
@anotherscott : I agree. A little program which heavily use CPU specific instruction can be hard to port on an other CPU, and it is easy to develop for a powerful CPU. Optimizing for a lower CPU can be difficult.

Note : I have tried without success Pianoteq on an eeePC (Intel Atom based little laptop).

Note : there exists an ARM version of Pianoteq and ARM CPU are known to use few electric power.
Posted By: Doug M. Re: Built-In VST / Pianotec? - 12/14/20 05:54 PM
Originally Posted by Abdol
Pianotec differs from Pianoteq. Pianotec can be easily implemented and runs on iPad (Mini in this case).

Are you making this claim with zero evidence to present to this court room Abdol Guliani? wink
Posted By: peterws Re: Built-In VST / Pianotec? - 12/14/20 06:07 PM
Originally Posted by Doug M.
Originally Posted by Abdol
Pianotec differs from Pianoteq. Pianotec can be easily implemented and runs on iPad (Mini in this case).

Are you making this claim with zero evidence to present to this court room Abdol Guliani? wink

Think I could back him up, m'lud. With all due respect to your learned self,. a Pianoteq Bluthner will run, at 256 polyphonic, playing Pink's "Take me Home" full whack on a little Ideapad. All without breaking wind.
Posted By: EPW Re: Built-In VST / Pianotec? - 12/14/20 06:54 PM
All of this is sort of moot as Pianoteq is close to releasing Pianoteq for iPad etc.
Have the modeled piano of your choice on your phone wink
Posted By: Abdol Re: Built-In VST / Pianotec? - 12/14/20 10:09 PM
Originally Posted by Doug M.
Originally Posted by Abdol
Pianotec differs from Pianoteq. Pianotec can be easily implemented and runs on iPad (Mini in this case).

Are you making this claim with zero evidence to present to this court room Abdol Guliani? wink

"Abdol Guliani"! it's a great name to troll the uncomfortable laugh Who needs evidence when this entire thread is rigged?
Posted By: Skyscrapersax Re: Built-In VST / Pianotec? - 12/15/20 06:25 AM
Originally Posted by CyberGene
Skyscrapersax, it is Pianoteq, not Pianotec.


Pianotec differs from Pianoteq. Pianotec can be easily implemented and runs on iPad (Mini in this case).

For me, typo, and didn't catch in the small window to fix... PianoTEC? on iPad? Huh? I'll look that one up. As to running PianoTEQ on my $100 tablet, I just put it on USB and plugged it in. Apparently, the little tablet had enough juice for the gig.
Posted By: Doug M. Re: Built-In VST / Pianotec? - 12/15/20 10:05 AM
Originally Posted by Abdol
Originally Posted by Doug M.
Originally Posted by Abdol
Pianotec differs from Pianoteq. Pianotec can be easily implemented and runs on iPad (Mini in this case).

Are you making this claim with zero evidence to present to this court room Abdol Guliani? wink

"Abdol Guliani"! it's a great name to troll the uncomfortable laugh Who needs evidence when this entire thread is rigged?

😂
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