I created a new separate topic, as it looks like this series is officially presented.



CLP-700 lineup:

CLP-785 | CLP-775 | CLP-745 | CLP-735 || CLP-795GP | CLP-765GP

Oh, there's actually a whole new action. The lowest end models have "GrandTouch-S™ keyboard" whatever that means. But it's no more a GH or NW variant. (What comes to the naming convention. I haven't seen any photos or drawings of it.)

They described it a bit in the Features section.

There's something new this time:




I'm trying to understand it. To me it sounds like they may have recreated the possibility of playing leggiero and similar other techniques. We've discussed how on acoustic pianos you can only slightly tap the keys without pressing them fully and that would still be able to throw the hammer to play against the strings. However on digital pianos the hammers are not easily thrown separately from the keys and even if they are, they need to overcome escapement notches first, then press mechanically the three sensors and that reduces their speed, thus lowering the desired velocity. On most typical digital pianos you simply can't play leggiero consistently. Furthermore, when playing leggiero without damper pedal, the hammer will strike the string that's still damped and that will create a very soft and damped sound and I've seen world famous pianists using this technique for an original effect. Wondering whether Yamaha tried to replicate behavior like this and other similar effects of acoustic pianos. Maybe they have the triple sensors more distanced than each other, or maybe they have other type of sensors, or maybe it's just some software modeling that tries to predict this? Maybe also special sampling to allow for various sound effects to be utilized (e.g. a dull faint notes when playing leggiero without the damper pedal?). Certainly sounds interesting.

GrandTouch-S

Just a thought!

To elaborate more on my previous post, Yamaha also mention trills when talking about the Grand Expression Modeling. I've commented how on digital piano actions trills tend to uncontrollably increase in volume due to the "punching bag" effect of the hammers not being stopped by a backcheck (as in acoustic piano actions) but simply rebounding between the cushioning and the key. Maybe Yamaha also introduced software modeling that would detect this behavior and just limit the velocities of the repeated notes to not reflect the actual hammer speed but follow more realistic and consistent velocity?

Finally.

- New Action + Bosendorfer!
Yeah

-No upright samples, from what I read.
😑

I didn't like what I heard in the promo video, let see more videos/review

Scrub to 3:25 if you're impatient.

🎶🎹🎵

James, did I sense a bit of nervousness in you related to the new announcement by Yamaha? Did they beat you to an announcement you are gonna make soon too? A VPC-2 maybe?

Kawai announced the Concert Artist CAx9 models earlier in the year, however we do have some other new instruments coming soon (that's not relevant to this thread though...).

Kind regards,
James
x

The User's Manual reveals:

It's in the whole 700 range. The 785/795GP do have a few exclusive sounds that are not in the other models such as...


...and two of the "historical piano" presets amongs others.

James, please wink if it’s an NV-20!

I’m desperate for something real, and bored with Yamaha’s so-called new offerings:

GrandTurd-S (the S stands for sh*t!).

Not that I think Kawai-winks are uninteresting, but should this thread not focus on the Yamaha 700 series ..?

Touch sensor control panel (CLP-775 and CLP-785)
"The touch panel only displays text when it is on — when the panel is off, it has the smooth finish of a keyblock".


Looks good. I wonder if this works while playing, or only when instrument is turned off. If the latter, then it makes little sense, since the keyboard is already closed by a lid. For me, the question is purely for the sake of interest, since anyway I'm looking at the CLP-745's price category. And I don't like upright designs (mainly for practical reasons).

No!

Focus needs to be earned, and Yamaha has not earned it with all their vague gibberish!

They are vague, and it is gibberish. But isn't that what marketing is all about?

Good question.

It appears that the CLP-700 models still use the same blue 128x64 pixel LCD as the previous generation. I don't know if it's possible for the backlight of these displays to be turned-off/on in software.

Kind regards,
James
x

Such a tough competition between piano manufacturers over who will manage first to achieve this next frontier in cutting edge software and hardware integration of turning off the display backlight 🤣 James, I missed this but did Kawai win with the latest CA-series? The backlight can now be switched off, right?

From here:
Yamaha launches Clavinova CLP-700 digital piano series

Analysis is worthwhile ... when starting with good data.

But to perform analysis on bullcrudish marketing banter and press release trash is like trying to mine gold in a septic tank.
The seller's quoted material is crap. It's like a Jedi mind trick. The Force can have a strong influence on the weak-minded.

Resist! Either put fingers on their keyboard. Or, lacking that ... just ignore.

It's 2020 and we're still getting the kind of LCD screen from the 90s...

Well, maybe I exhibited wishful thinking on my side. But the Yamaha commercial BS is suspiciously similar to what I have tried to guess. And if theoretically they implemented what I've been complaining about ('till I'm blue in the mouth) about the lack of escapement, etc., they might have actually worked around the problem by providing better software detection which would at least partially solve through a software the inherent hardware problem of digital piano actions lacking escapement. That would be good news for digital piano owners Or just BS.

I vote for BS!

And about the interface, no, it’s not a touch screen, but rather a touch-sensitive one with a fixed template! What a marvel of technology.........Not!

I’m suing Yamaha! Who’s with me?

I was already going to sue Yamaha for that horrible control panel on the AvantGrand series before this

404 Excitement not found. It still sounds like the same Sampling from the older models. I doubt the GrandTouch(S) has been improved alot. Feels like another cheap shot by Yamaha to sell the same Crap over and over.

May I have your permission to borrow that and use with impunity? It’s brilliant!

The funny thing about "new samples" is that the pianos they sample haven't changed.

So what has?

Yamaha has been one of the leading manufacturers of professional audio gear for several decades already, so are they still only learning how to record a piano?

Have the previous samples been substandard somehow?

Did they use the wrong type of microphones in the wrong positions?

What new did they learn since the previous sampling session?

Are they admitting that the older Clavinovas are flawed?

😉

(Of course the binaural Bösendorfer is actually a new thing.)

A new sampling will be needed if they came up with multichannel speakers or something that required special sampling. For instance, the 4-channel sampling in the N1X is made so that it suits the speaker system of the N1X. When mixed down to stereo it is not very convincing. Which is also why through headphones only the CFX Binaural is good whereas the Bosendorfer and CFX stereo-mixdown versions are rather bland.

Sure. Have fun.

Good one.Indeed ... if you read the ad-copy from thirty years ago you see the same claims. The same BS.

This LCD has appeared 6 years ago (CLP5xx). It was a revolution : the CLP4xx (Excepted the 480) had a 3 digits LED display... then don’t be impatient !

Sweet Jesus, the negativity, from people who haven't seen one, heard one or played one is just overwhelming. The 600 series Clavinova was entirely competitive with the best of whatever else was available at the same price points - personal taste dictates choices between Yamaha, Roland and Kawai for home console pianos.

Now comes the 700 series with certain enhancements/changes - the real world effects of which we don't yet know. So give it a break guys. This forum is getting very boring. Either that or my tolerance for it all seems to have deserted me. Speculating is fine...it's all we can do anyway...but to just indiscriminately plunge the knife in is not helpful to anyone.

Why is everyone saying its a new action... Its the same overly heavy grandtouch, yamaha have ignored all feedback as predicted, they lost a loyal customer in me, I'll be opting for kawai now.

The "GrandTouch-S" in the lower end models is new.

But does the "S" mean short or stiff?

Maybe it's short AND stiff. 😄

But seriously, we don't really know much yet -- like said above -- so let's wait and see.

There's quite much new actually at least at the specification and "marketing jargon" level.

...maybe it’s short AND stiff AND sh*t!

Okay, now we’ve really upset EssBrace.

Call me a hopeless optimist but I believe in that Grand Expression Modeling and I think they implemented it through changes in sensor design and/or positioning and/or scanning, etc. And to allow for that, they made changes to the existing action which were also translated into the lower end models, hence the GrandTouch-S which probably omits mechanical luxuries (from the specs it seems the GrandTouch-S doesn't contain wood, for instance) but retains the realistic behavior. But I'm a Yamaha guy now, so I'm mild-mannered with them Let's see.

I just want to know 1 thing.

HOW BIG are these new Touch-S pivots ? Ya got 1 chance to wow the crowd. Don't blow it yamaha.

I think the "S" in "GrandTouch-S" stands for "sissy". Only the more expensive models require a real man's strength* to depress the keys.

*Or the use of additional tools, like hammers, clubs, etc.

I also think the marketing department is unfairly criticized.

Imagine just for a moment that I'm right with my theory about the leggiero stuff, the trills and the "punching bag" effect, etc. How many of you actually got what I describe, the mumbo-jumbo, what the problem is, what the solution is and why that is important? I know for sure that only a bunch of regulars here know what I'm talking about. So, again, imagine the engineers at Yamaha came up with these solutions. And that needs to be marketed. Do you believe there's any possible way of communicating that to the regular piano buyer without confusing them and at the same time being clear, concise and deep enough to give a few nerds on an Internet forum all the needed information about how they implemented something very special? No need for this negativity indeed.

Wood is mentioned in description:

Most improvements in the CLP series are incremental. Then I didn’t expect to be so much excited. We had some important steps (get rid of AWM, wooden keyboard, LCD display instead of 3 digits LED), be can’t expect to have something important every 3 years and surely not in every domains at the same time.

Low budgets will be interested by the GH3X/GrandTouch-S substitution, higher budgets by the transducers, we also have binaural Bösendorfer... then several little evolutions which will not make many people to sell their CLP6xx to upgrade their piano, but will be appreciated by new buyers.

On the comparison spec section the 735 is the only one listed without having wood in the key description which led me think this is for all the S-keys. But probably it’s not that. Or they can make two variants - with wood or with plastic core.

Two variants with the same name would be weird, be the description looks like it this the case.

We already had some variant of the GH keyboard (linear graded hammer, and the “original” one)

Did anyone figure out what the transducers are doing?
On the original AG transducers are used for key vibration (TRS).

Transducers are introduced in the speaker line of the specs. I would interpret something like the CA99, but we can be surprised that Yamaha doesn’t tell a lot of thing about them.

Surely, there is no soundboard needin’ some vibratin’, or is there?
Or could there be some sort of ‘mini-board’ like the one used on the N3/X?

Good to see some more objective comments instead of all the negativity which is simply paralysis by analysis.
Prices released in the UK seem a little high compared to the competition, but no doubt discounts will emerge in a few months.
For those who are not enamoured by the ‘antique’ control panel, just get the Smart Pianist app. It provides a brilliant interface with the piano, so thumbs up to Yamaha. All the other main manufacturers have wisely followed Yamaha’s lead!!

Just browsed through the product info again and realised there's 'Grand Expression Modeling' and 'Grand Acoustic Imaging'. These are something new right?

I think Grandtouch-S is just the same with NWX but with offset pivot points for the black keys. I'm excited to see how the Grand Expression Modeling works. If it does well, it would greatly benefit players that work with the different nuances in touch and sound.

From what I've been taught, there are four extremes on how you touch a keyboard: Fast-Light, Fast-Heavy, Slow-Light, Slow-heavy. And then there are infinite possibilities within, much like Yamaha's visual graph. I don't know how current keyboard sensor works but it sounds like they only read 2 extremes of touches. Whether it's fast, slow, light or heavy, it's never the combination of 2. This Grand Expression Modeling could be a game changer if it really works.

Is the Grand Expression Modeling anything like the Grand Prix Modeling?
If so, I’m gonna have to send it back!

Which Scale Model size of Grand Prix are you talking about. I heard through the grape-vine the 1/18 scale models don't have this feature but the 1/12 scale models do. Now you got me worried Pete LOL

Thanks for the info guys.

I was hoping for a lighter key action in the 775 as when I tried the 675 it was too stiff for me.
However, taken from Bonners site I did read this though:

"Yamaha 'GrandTouch' keyboard first appeared on the older generation CLP675 and CLP685 models. The manufacturer has listened to feedback from consumers and musicians and made some modifications to further improve the piano-like experience of this wonderful keyboard."

https://www.bonnersmusic.co.uk/yamaha-clp775wa-clavinova-digital-piano-white-ash.ir

It's not "paralysis by analysis". It's "same old same old" and "deja vu all over again".The sun rose today. In the east. It was yellow. I don't expect it will be any different tomorrow, right?

Substitute "piano business" for "sun" ... and it's all the same. Time after time. Not much changes.

Ho hum. Yawn. 404.

I think the « déjà vu » syndrome is common to all digital piano brands excepted when a new kind of Series appear (Casio GP, Yamaha CSP...) this is not common. I don’t understand why there is such a thread about Yamaha and not Roland, Kawai or others. As I have said many times, digital piano progress is quite slow. But there is a steady progress : my CLP150 from 2002 is very inferior than today’s pianos, in every aspect. All the progresses (keyboard, tone generator, display, USB drive support, WAV recording...) has been introduced at different time. Now we have a set of progress and I don’t think they are so inferior than those of the previous years. Ok, wooden keyboard and the replacement of AWM where huge compared to others... but you can’t expect a revolution every 3 years, or you will must be disappointed everytime.

You also have to consider diminishing returns. Getting rid of AWM will surely have an impact more important than later progress. The next major improvement is unlooped samples... but who knows when it will come.

Okay, now I’m intrigued: Yamaha makes no mention of any ‘modifications’ to the GrandTouch, but Bonners explicitly states “GrandTouch ‘improved’ Keyboard”.

Is it or is it not modified/improved? Is Bonners the unofficial spokesperson for Yamaha?

What gives?

@Pete14 : Unfortunately, will have to wait for a long time before CLP675 service manual to leak on the Web. (I have only found the CLP575...) then, it will be hard to detect if some parts have been changed.

I think you forget something important. Unlike Kawai, Yamaha never announce small changes in their keyboard actions. We've discussed how GH was their main digital action for many years without Yamaha announcing any changes/improvements/fixes while it was confirmed it went through various upgrades.

Compare that to Kawai who say: we improved this and that, we fixed the faulty teflon tape capstan in GF2, we improved the mushy feeling cushioning, etc. And then if you're an existing customer you might get a bit mad since you own the old action which Kawai themselves admitted was suboptimal.

Yamaha play the other game. They imply the action was perfect since the beginning therefore it didn't require changes Yet it's changed.

@CyberGene : Read from Kawai-global.com : the CA99 combines a new keyboard action with improved digital piano technology to create uncompromising touch and tone.

Ok, it is not “perfect”, but uncompromised ! The site doesn’t decline all improvement but just sum up them by “ the upgraded Grand Feel III keyboard action”.

Then, if I understand well, what is reproached from Yamaha is not that they hasn’t made a quantum leap (it was my perception), but just that they doesn’t communicate on any little tiny improvements.


I think that all brands are just evaluated by actual buyers which vote with heir wallet after trying the real thing in a shop. From what I know (but only with 2 years old DP tried in a shop), Yamaha is quite competitive. What is claimed in a brochure or whatever else doesn’t count, I just trust my fingers and my ears.

I've heard that Yamaha have pretty aggressive presence strategy. They are a huge corporation after all. I have a friend who has a small music store in Sofia (actually he is the official Kawai dealer in Bulgaria but sells other brands too except Yamaha) and he told me that he has been approached many times by Yamaha representatives who discussed why he doesn't sell Yamaha pianos in his store. He said it's only Yamaha that he has been approached by them, in contrast to the other brands that he sells which was his choice and he was the one to approach them. On the acoustic piano forum someone in 2015 claimed that in the International Chopin Piano Competition in Warsaw there was a dedicated Yamaha technician to prepare the CFX, where the rest of the pianos (the Steinway, the Kawai and the Fazioli) were served by a single local technician. Expectedly the biggest percentage of contestants chose the CFX because it was probably in a top notch condition. I guess Yamaha want to think of themselves as the faultless king shark in the sea And it really seems like they sell more digital pianos than any other brand although it would be interesting by how much.

Ok, we can argue that the success of Yamaha also comes from a better selling network. But this doesn’t explain the thread « 404 Excitement not found »we can found here and not about concurrent brands which are not so much advanced in my humble opinion.

If you have a gripe about Yamaha, why not expose this gripe about its actual reason and not pretext ?

I plan to buy a N1X, but one reason is that it is difficult for me to try and test the NV10... Then it is sure that the success of Yamaha comes also from other reasons than the quality of their products. But I really think they are quite good. (After comparing Yamaha, Roland, Kawai, Casio with no bias).

I would love to have a store here in the Chicago-land area that has in stock the major brands to try like Bonners in England. But nope. Naperville Music only sells Yamaha now. Cordigan Piano sells Roland and Kawai but no Yamaha. So I had to bounce between them to test out pianos. One of the stores was extremely nice and left me alone and the other store was like a vulture hanging over me. Not nice!

Anyway it is nice to see at least little advancement in the new 700 series of Yamaha. With Covid all my buying has been put on hold. So I can wait till the fall to go test them and hopefully find a new baby to take home

Does CLP-785 have the same action and samples as CLP-795GP? Are there any stimuli to go for GP variant except for the grand piano look?

Oh lord. This thread has devolved so low. You guys haven't even heard the piano! But still, the AvantGrands are better than this and not that much more expensive... The Clavinovas are in a tough spot. Put in real grand action/upright action and it becomes an AvantGrand... So they add a GrandTouch-S? What is that? S for... slim? I don't even know.

Well, 85 series are more or less competitive with LX and CA and far below AvantGrand price bracket. 95GP on the other hand is surely within striking distance of N1X.

The only selling point of the Clavinova over the AvantGrand is those extra built-in sounds. The price of the NU1X is mighty close to the CLP785 and personally, I’ll choose the NU1X any day. There’s just no substitute for an acoustic action.

Or they listened to "feedback" from actual customers, thousands upon thousands that enjoyed the GrandTouch action, including many professional concert musicians. It's a simple fact that not everyone has the same tastes. This thread is just hilarious. No one's heard or played the instrument and it's just constant bashing here. Other companies (I won't name) make very little changes as well but people still get excited but when it's YAMAHA it's full on hatred lol.

As for the samples, yes they CAN improve them even if they were good before. We all know the samples are these things are pretty tiny compared to VST. So maybe they just use larger versions of the "same" samples, or improved how the software plays the samples back. We don't know. I don't like to judge based off YouTube videos. For now it all sounds "good" to me, but I'm not blown away...I'm never blown away by YT. I didn't care for the CLP 685 until I heard it in person, or the LX 708 and CA98.

I don't believe this is correct.

It's my understanding that Kawai sends technicians to prepare SK-EX instruments used at international piano competitions.

Kind regards,
James
x

Yes, I believe you're correct. Essentially the same action design but with different white key material.

CLP-745: Grand Touch-S with wood-plastic white keys
CLP-735: Grand Touch-S with plastic keys

This simplifies the action naming convention, as all Clavinova models now use a kind of "Grand Touch" action, as opposed to having three different action names with the CLP-600 series. However, I cannot help but wonder if some CLP-735 customers may purchase the instrument on the mistaken assumption that it features wooden keys.

Kind regards,
James
x

I would like to see the action from 785... I always wonder why Yamaha is the only company which is shy or not confident to show their action. Perhaps their presence is so big that they do not care...

Here's some new video of CLP 785 recorded externally To me it seems like the display is turned off while playing, which may be good news to people as read here.

Sorry but Kawai is in the lead.

You know - if you are buying top of the line piano, that you expect modern, not 20 years old technology. The same screen was at 500 series. The only change from 5xx is the way how you push the buttons, but still the same poor and hard to navigate screen, from which Kawai resigned years ago. But this is all Yamaha. We will sell you crap hidden in marketing BS.

And their hammers, which are bended wires, or at least were few years ago. How does it look today, noone knows.

But if Yamaha wouldn't be ashamed of the look of their action, they would be more than happy to show it.

Well, the control panel disappears, but it seems that the LCD display itself (the blue rectangle at the top of the control panel) remains turned on.

Kind regards,
James
x

I don’t care that the action still uses bended rods or not. What matters is the feeling, and when I have compared CLP6xx with Roland (PHA50) or kawai (GF I or II), I have found the CLP6xx nice enough. In fact the NWX is quite an improvement over the GH3X.

Sorry for that, I guess I was too focused at the keys.

Honestly, I am pretty curious testing one Yamaha in reality just to see how they improved the speaker experience as they market it. I noticed how the speakers on the piano dramatically change the experience, and even though VSTs may sound good on recordings, I usually like pianos as they are built, since the sound projection is far far better than a stereo setup when you play them live, and the overall experience is very smooth.

Let's hope Bonners Music has too much time in this pandemic and they'll bring us a full blown review

I just heard back from the main Danish music store chain; they said it was far too early to predict when the instruments actually arrive in the stores, but they believed that arrival to be somewhere between 1 to 5 months from now. They further said that they were to have been announced in April, and instead were announced July 1, owing to Corona and closed factories.

On behalf of little Timmy and I, myself, I would like to congratulate my fellow members for this year’s participation in ‘Yamaha Bashfest’. I must say that I am personally proud of all the expert bashing and look forward to seeing some hands-on goodness down the road!

Maybe some kind of reflection. Because here we can clearly see that both the control panel and the screen turn off. And despite the fact that the screen is turned off, we still see its clear outlines, as in the video above, which can cause the feeling that the screen is turned on if there is a lot of light in the room.

So you think there are many concert pianists out there who like the grandtouch action? As in concert pianists who practice and perform mainly on expensive high end grands that have real actions with average downweights half that approx of the GT action.... You are in fantasy land my friend, and you also think thousands and thousands love the action? You think they sold that many? I heard 1,yes there was maybe 1 'concert pianist' on this forum or who someone knew that liked the grandtouch action... You appear to have taken that info and turned it into this nonsense you have spouted...

They would be crazy to announce them if they're not going to be available soon? Cause all the people like me who were holding off on a CLP-6xx in anticipation of a 7xx, are just going to carry on waiting, thus killing sales stone dead?

I had an instrument from Yamaha with GH3 action (with those "bended wires"), and Kawai with RHII action. I didn't have any problems with Yamaha keyboard, I liked the feel and the lack of any problems. And I have a lot of complaints about RHII keyboard from Kawai. So after that, I ask: what does it matter to me who shows the structure of their keyboard action, and who does not, if in the end I am definitely more satisfied with the keyboard whose manufacturer does not show it or shows "bended wires"? I don't care what keyboard action looks like as long as I'm happy with the feel and reliability of the keyboard.

And about the screen, I would definitely prefer an "old-fashioned" screen and control panel with separate buttons (like on lower-end models from Kawai or Yamaha) than one large touch screen and the way it is implemented in the flagship models of Kawai now.

Availability in the UK on dealers websites is October, so a few months before we can get some objective hands on views.
I am sure Tony from Bonners will post one of his excellent demonstrations, but note they are demonstrations, not critical reviews. He always advises people to visit Bonners to try before you buy, which most users of this forum also sensibly recommend.
Yamaha certainly market their products well. Kawai have some excellent digital pianos, but although my local dealer in Newcastle on Tyne sells Kawai acoustic upright and grand pianos, but they will not stock Kawai digital because they cannot sell them (their words not mine).
They also stock Roland, and I love the LX 708 cabinet, but their new modelled sound is so artificial to my ears. Sorry Roland fans.
So I will visit Bonners in October, a 600 mile round trip, to test drive the Yamaha alongside the Kawai and the new Dexibell H10 and give you the benefit of my very inexperienced views!!!

According to Yamaha French website, clp700 will be available in September in France, except from clp785 which should be available in October.

I wonder how the 785 will compare to the NU1X.

Overall, it seems like people ‘round here preferred the NU1X over the 685; even in terms of sound; which baffled me since the NU1X only uses four modest speakers. And yes, when it comes to ‘upright cabinet’ type pianos the more -speakers- the better; it’s simply a matter of dispersion and not raw volume (they can all get pretty loud).

My take is that Yamaha did not touch the speaker system for the 785. The more I read about the ‘transducers’, the more I feel like these are being used for vibrations rather than sound; akin to the TRS; only this time Yamaha seems to go for the whole cabinet (vibration) instead of just the keys (I could be wrong).

What Kawai James is trying to say is, Kawai, pays James, to go to international competitions to slip a few benjamins in the competitor's pockets to select the Kawai. But of recent years, yamaha has been dishing out heavier benjamins. So, Kawai has been planting these Informational attack dogs on Online Piano forums to roll fud' on yamaha discussions.

I think you overestimate how many people play with in build speakers. I think those that prefer NU1X over CLP 685 are liking keyboard more or they just play on headphones and don't mind weaker speaker system. Honestly even N3X I've tested had a bit too weak sound compared to real grand piano or even CLP685 or CA98. And I don't mean sound loudness alone, rather it didn't have proper vibrations.

There's Beethoven, and there's Chopin! I'm listening to the Chopin right now and it sounds like it's a 19th century piano sample? This is exciting!

Did they or did they not improve the action? I don’t want any ‘ifs, ands, or buts’; I just want a straight answer! Yes or No!

Did they sample Chopin’s piano?...once again, ‘Yes or No’.

Did they update speaker system?.....do I need to say it again?......Yes or freaking No!

I’m losing my patience here.

So far the only thing we know for certain is that the NU1X still kicks the 785’s ass!

You can see in t he specs then did not.

Oh Pete! Show some patience. Because you're not going to buy one, right? Me neither.

But what’s all this talk about transducers? Surely, it doesn’t have a sound board, so is this simply for good vibrations?

It's the same thing as the Rumble pak for N64 controllers. or the ubiquitous vibration feature in all modern consoles. It just doesn't vibrate the keys, it kind of just wiggles your belly fat.

Can it wiggle other things, I ask?

Calm down Pete. I am getting concerned about your blood pressure. Remember, patience is a virtue!!!!!

It depends on how you sit on the bench!

Well - hate to rain on the the troll parade, my suggestion would be to create a diferent "Let's be negative on a piano nobody has seen and I don't want to buy thread" for those posts.

I'm actually really curious about thenew series. Especially the CLP-745 and possibly the CLP-775. It'll be also interesting to see when and what pricepoint they'll come available over here in The Netherlands. As far as I've seen there's no CLP-645 PE's in stock anywhere anymore here. Spotted a white one in Amsterdam though (for EUR 1995). The new ones don't seem to be a major upgrade, but nice enough not to rush to a store and get a 645.

Maybe I'm biased. Just to share a different perspective, currently playing mostly on a CLP-300 which is well over 30 years old (yes, ready for an upgrade in action, samples and sound ;-) ) which has developed only some minor issues. Also play on an upright Petrof, which is way nicer. I don't think anything in the CLP-700 series would be good enough to beat a proper accoustic upright in sound, feel and overall "playing experience".

Does anyone have info (or even a guess) on the difference between GrandTouch and GrandTouch-S?

I’ll make a guess myself: GrandTouch uses wood, while the -S version uses plastic?

On that note, does the wood really make a difference? Folks who have tried wood and plastic, what difference did it make for you?

CLP-745 has wooden GrandTouch-S. I'm guessing S means small or short which may mean shorter key sticks.

Hi guys. I want to ask if there is a difference between the grand touch in the clp 685 and the grand touch in the new clp 785?

Night and day... the NWX keyboard feels quite* nice when I have tried it. Afterward, I have tried a GH3X and feel it too light under my finger.

(*quite... I reverse the “really nice” to the N1/N3 I have tried before)

Won't know until it's out for you to try it.

Thank you so much 🙏

The Yamaha website now has the manual for the CLP-700 series on their website. It answers some of the questions and points of speculation in this thread, including the differences between models. However, things will be clearer when the first reviews start coming in.
https://ca.yamaha.com/en/products/m...nova/clp-785/downloads.html#product-tabs

I was written something like Beowolf terms...

About feelings, the best thing to do is try by yourself. I had an hard time to feel differences between Yamaha wooden keyboards (NWX, GrandTouch, GrandTouch with counterweight). I mean, I didn’t feel much difference (But AvantGrand/NWX is night and day and the same is about NWX/GH3X). Then I am sure that GrandTouch and GrandTouch will feel quite comparable under my finger.

So the manual shows they have an SU7 sample but they do NOT have the fantastic U1 sample that's in the CP88. That's a huge let-down to me. The U1 sample was amazing

gonna guess the chopin piano is a Pleyel

I don't see negative comments about these pianos. I see skepticism over the claims or expectations that they will be newer, bigger, better.

Something to keep an eye on for people interested in the CLP 700 series. Maybe this will answer a couple of questions we already have

What do you like to have in a new Clavinova? And what is it that you don't like in the 6XX series that you wanted to see improved?

The older thread wondered about a 725 model and actually it's already visible (by mistake?) on this site:

https://ca.yamaha.com/en/products/musical_instruments/pianos/clavinova/clp-725/features.html

For comparison the 735 specs:

So, Grandtouch key action in the whole range.
Really looking forward to see the improvements... Specially in Gt-s variation.

To my mind the big news is in "New CFX and Bosendorfer Imperial samples".

These could be a Kawai-style UPHI to HI-XL type deal where the basic sample sessions are the same and the same original recordings are used but they reconfigure them in some way. But it could be derived from a new recording session.

So, to recap:

New samples + new keyboard action + new sound engine and/or expression modelling + improved resonance modelling.

And still no one is happy. Everyone bitching away, slagging Yamaha off. No one has played one. Almost no one wants to give them a chance.

I'm thinking this has got to be a symptom of some wider malaise with life in general.

Thank you EssBrace. I am in almost full agreement. There is far too much bitching, but not by ‘everyone’. I am looking forward to getting more information and eventually a full test drive to allow me to make up my own mind. I just ignore the mindless bitching.
I have owned both Yamaha and Kawai digital pianos, all of them good, but none of them perfect. As the saying goes, accentuate the positive, eliminate the negative.
I look forward to constructive feedback from members who are interested enough to actually try the pianos when they arrive, and hopefully you will be one of them.

I'm OK with the bitching, and I myself do it often, but only when the pianos are available and we have tested them.

There's an announcement, seems like many things are new: new samples, new sound engine, new action. How come that's so bad?

No new action, only grandtouch-S on lower models... The higher models have the same grandtouch action as in the clp 600 series.

I've ridiculed Yamaha quite a fair bit. The reason is that when I first went to test their instruments, I had great expectations - mostly because of the Bösendorfer sampling, since I am a Bösendorfer fan - but the action on both the 675 and 685 were so artificial, so unlike any acoustic I had ever played, that it seemed to me as if Yamaha were not at all trying to simulate the feel of an acoustic. I felt deceived, although it was of no direct relevance to me, since I was in the market for something much cheaper. Ultimately I got the Roland FP-30, whose action I considered (and still consider) vastly superior to that of the CLP-685.

Yamaha have changed their GH-action throughout the years (slightly but still) without any confirmation about that. Without testing the new action, we don't know for sure if it's exactly the same. For instance I also hated the CLP-675 action, the initial friction was unnatural to me. Maybe they reduced that friction without having to come up with new name for the action, or use versioning like Kawai actions.

There's English. And there's marketing English.
In the latter, "new improved" means as "same old, same old".
Look that up in your Funk & Wagnalls.

I think we will see an improvement here in the key action/connection department.
On the sound department ididn't like at all from what i heard in the teaser video.
Sounds like the same old sample from 10 years ago.

RGE2: very vague description about the improvements; so much so that it has left us wondering whether there’s a fourth sensor or even optical sensors in there. Sure they have a cute graph that shows some colored areas indicating that the engine is capable of more than just ppp to fff; ‘it can render many shades in between’, but I wonder how many shades? 50 shades of grey? 75 shades of red? I don’t know, it’s just too vague.

New action: well, when I bash I go for the top (785), and no, there’s no new action there. Of course, Yamaha toys with us as to whether there’s been any improvements made to the action instead of just telling us; what the heck did you improve? Is it lighter, smoother, cooler?

New samples: this one is tricky. Let’s assume they actually recorded these from scratch (we have to assume ‘cause they don’t tell us); these are recording sessions and in many ways share a common thread with ‘performance recording session’. A lot can go wrong in a recording session and just because the previous session was a hit there’s no guarantee the new session will produce the same or even better results.

This is why we only have one Bohemian Rhapsody; do you think Queen didn’t shoot for a sequel (best sound engineers, best studio, best everything)? Of course they did, but the magic just didn’t quite happen again. Sure they had other hits, but nothing as musically transcendental as Bohemian. So yes, ‘new samples’ does not necessarily translate into better...

Yes, we are bashing based on specs, and further exploration -in person- will either confirm or render moot our assumptions. That being said, these are not acoustic instruments, and yes, a lot can be deduced from specs alone. For example, if the speakers and cabinet are the same as in the 685, anyone familiar with the 685 can have an idea of what it’ll be like to sit in front of the 785 in terms of sound diffusion.

So yes, specs + time + familiarity with previous models can indeed paint a decent, if not the whole, picture.

Mac, you're just too stubborn. Dare I say childishly so Did you expect that they will send you service manuals, blueprints and patent papers with detailed descriptions? And without that do we automatically accept that there are no improvements, just a single big lie? Language is not math. It's ridiculous to accept axiomatic rules about marketing.

Stubborn? Yes.
Childishly so? No ... it's built from decades of experience.

And it's not ridiculous at all.

The sun rises every day. I expect that to continue.
Marketing press releases spew misleading copy. I expect that to continue, too.

Future results often do mirror past experience.

As for this ... No, I don't expect manuals.
And I don't expect complete (or honest) information, either.

I expect the opposite: deception. Or, more properly, carefully crafted text designed to make us deceive ourselves ...
... by reading more into the words than they mean
... by filling in deliberate gaps
... by interpreting vague words in a way that seems favorable

Advertising is about getting people to lie to themselves. I try not to do that.

Unususally for a dane, I actually have the Funk & Wagnalls, and I dare say you seem to be on to something.

It states:

Improve: To increase the value or profit of.

Undoubtedly, Yamaha is trying to increase their profit, so their new version must be either cheaper to manufacture, or sold at a higher price. Thus new and improved.

I still think you are going too much into this marketing conspiracy plot. We have something really new this time, the Grand Expression Modeling. It's the first time I see a digital piano specifically mentioning how things like partial taps on the keys (leggiero) or trills are being taken care of through modeling, as well as taking into account the depth to which keys are pressed, not just the velocity information from the sensors. On a hybrid piano like the N1X we have sensors on both the hammers and the keys, and so naturally the piano has information about both hammer velocity and key position (hence damper position). On a typical digital piano that's not the case. Which is why typical digital pianos lack in regards to leggiero and consistent trill velocity. Do you believe Yamaha lied about that and they haven't done anything at all? They just decided to bring up some new lies nobody else has came up with? Even if they fail to explain it (which is difficult because I also don't know how to explain it to the regular Joe without it sounding like mumbo-jumbo), it doesn't mean they haven't actually innovated and created something original.

Don't bring a straw man into this. I never said anything about a conspiracy.

As for lying ... advertisers don't have to lie to you. Indeed, the law here says they must not. And it's most likely that they don't.

The point is that I try not to read more into a claim than what is plainly stated. That's not to say that the loose claims are necessarily false. But I don't want to make them seem true by inventing some justification.

Notice that you took a trade-name Grand Expression Modeling ... and interpreted that as akin to the sort of modeling that we see in Pianoteq and elsewhere. That might be true. Or might not. I would not make that assumption.

Your interpretation of modeling has meaning. Their use of the word in a capitalized trade-name does not. Indeed, trade-names can say just about anything at all, and need have not a shred of truth in them. They are allowed to be, and are intended to be, entirely fictitious. As such they can often be deceptive.

Now, there could indeed be something to the apparent claims. But I think we should believe that only after seeing, touching, and hearing the product. Until then I think we can only expect small changes ... just like we've seen time after time over the decades. If ony Dewster would re-visit PW and regale us with his detailed study of such things.

And I'm not a Yamaha basher at all. I own a Yamaha, and my next one will likely be a Yamaha.

In my reference to F&W I was casting a net, trying to see who (if anyone) had ever heard of it ... or of the full phrase.
It's quite an oldie. I'm surprised you have one.BTW, do you have the dictionary, or the encyclopedia?

The first time I have tried a CA97 with its Grand Feel keyboard, I have felt such an unatural friction. I have tried it an other day and didn't felt this issue.

I didn't felt such friction on a CLP675.

It's the Funk & Wagnalls Standard Dictionary, International Edition in two volumes. I quite like it, because it has fairly extensive explanations for the words.

I'm not sure I understand the problem. A new piano is announced, there's some marketing and there's some backlash.

So, I'm trying to understand what would a dream announcement have been, which wouldn't have generated that backlash? You say marketing is always a BS and that has proven itself through the years but it's always marketing that presents a new piano. How do you imagine a honest new product presentation that won't cause backlash (OK, OK, let's call it skepticism)? No marketing materials, instead call the engineers to explain what they have designed, explanations, comparisons with real pianos, with other digital pianos? On the very first day? Or do you prefer this to be independent researchers, reviewers? Yamaha to withhold any marketing materials on they first day announcement, instead leaving third parties to present the piano without marketing blurb?

There's some truth in your words. When I tested the CLP-675 for the first time, I was still an owner of a Kawai ES7 which is a very light feeling keyboard and I wasn't used to a heavy action. I also felt the same way about the NWX action in the P515.

I've since retested both the CLP-675 and the P515, after owning the N1X and being used to a real grand piano action and indeed I didn't notice the high friction in such a bad way. I believe there's still some friction that is a bit higher than how the N1X feels but I didn't find it annoying, just different. I think judging actions shouldn't be made based on very first impression after owning some other piano for a long time.

In the first days after I finished the Cybrid I felt odd difference between it and the N1X. However since I play both regularly and every day, currently I don't find any noticeable difference. I'm not saying there isn't any difference. Quite on the contrary, there is but I'm used to the two actions equally and my fingers and brain have internalized the two feelings to adapt immediately and not be bothered by the differences. All that being said, I've been unfair to Kawai actions (e.g. the mushy feeling that I experienced with CA78 after a month with the NU1X). The best way is to play a piano for at least a month and then judge how you feel based on the cumulative experience. Another example. I remember the CA63, I owned it for a year or something and I was very familiar and used to it but was never very happy with it. It was just an OK action. When I replaced it with a MP6 the RH-action very quickly become my second nature and I loved it for the entire time, then the same with the ES7.

Often, when new products are being marketed, objective measurements of various factors generally seen as important are stated in the advertisement material. Think of cars, for example.

To an extent Yamaha can be excused because in the digital piano industry there has not yet been established the same kind of quantitative important factors as seen in more mature industries.

However, in the case of the new CLP-700 series, Yamaha could for example have been explicit about increase in size of the sample libraries, change in downweight in the action, etc. Because it is known that such issues will impact the playing experience.

"Grand Expression Modeling" can't be anything overly fancy and complicated as it's found in the CLP-725 too.

If it were anything fancy and complicated it would be reserved for the higher range models only.

(I suppose...)

If you want to appreciate a keyboard, you mustn't try it after an AvantGrand (and probably the NV10 but I haven’t tried it).

+1

I don’t mind the gibberish so much as the deliberate omission of important aspects.
For example, after much complaining about the GrandTouch (controversial action, to say the least), Yamaha could’ve at least thrown in ‘improved’ in their description. Oddly enough, a dealer (Bonners) states this, but are we to consider this official unless Yamaha confirms it?

I just sold my 1960s G2 that my father bought for me new over 50 years ago, so I'm certainly used to the "heavy touch" of a Yamaha, but sound really is critical (when you get to my age, downsizing becomes a reality). If there was an N2X, that might be an option. The NV10 seems outdated. The Yamaha 700-series lacks a proper action, or so it seems. We shall see, I guess.

Maybe Kawai or Yamaha will update one of their flagship GRAND action (but smaller) keyboards this year with solid sampling (scans looping) and with solid additional voices.

Can you be more specific? How is the NV10 outdated?
And, why pine for an N2X? Why not an N1X?

The touch screen on the Nv10 is finicky, to say the least, and not up to current technological expectations. The additional (non-piano) samples are sorely lacking (missing a solid pipe organ for example).

The N1X does better with the voices, but the looping is bad, the speakers are under powered, and the control panel is awful.

In the specifications for the 745 I read that the speakers are (50w+50w)*2; the 645 has (25w+25w)*2. It is both on the webpage and in the userguide. Did the speaker setup really get twice as powerful?

Are we already living in an era where touch screen is a common feature in pianos?

It is looking that way. What, no touch screen? I will have to pass!

I don't think the controls have to be a touch screen, but when the dealers urge you to use an iPad to control the piano, it suggests the UI is not up to snuff. Of course, if you only intend to use the default piano sample, maybe it doesn't matter.

The NV10 sounds better (to me) then the N1X even though I'm a long-term Yamaha owner, but I'm not a fan of the limited non-piano voices of the NV10 (especially at its price point).

well said! It's a bit silly really.


They have to be new in some way, otherwise this is literally false advertising and is illegal.


And again I find it funny people are bashing the GrandTouch keyboard as if it's as bad as a synth keyboard. Thousands of pianist play it just fine. Feedback from actual users was clearly good enough for them to not change.

Did anyone bash the GrandTouch keyboard? Anyone? Did I miss something?

@MacMacMac, It is the whole product which has been denigrated, keyboard included.

I wouldn’t take Tyr too seriously. He often praises what he currently owns until he replaces it with the next thing which then becomes an object of praise and the previous one is then bashed. We all do to some degree, that’s probably an internal process of justification.

At least my opinions are based on months of experience with an instrument instead of testing it once or twice in a shop. I simply don't see a big improvement yet on the new CLP Line.

However, the tone generator has been updated, you more likely have not tried it. But you sum up “the same crap”.

I don’t think there is an huge evolution, but it is the same situation with other brands. Then if one have a deception about the CLP700, this means he was waiting to too much things.

I have a Yamaha at home, and have tried several times more recent models. I don’t need a lot of time to prefer the Yamaha’s samples to the Roland models, and appreciate the evolution since 2002. Then I can have a little appreciation of different models.

Don't get me wrong. I also love the Yamaha Samples. I wish they would update them to be larger and more complex. Also there is a slight imbalance in volume between some octaves. This is something I always disliked. Based on the recording in the video above, I don't hear a real difference between the new and old Generation.

Obviously I don't know how the "improved" GrandTouch Action will fee,l but I doubt it will address the main issue of the keyboard. Especially when Yamaha itself doesn't say something about it.

I havn’t feel something bad about the GrandTouch keyboard. I am as happy with them as with other keyboard at the same price range. (But inferior than N1X for example, and superior than GH3X).

Some consider them too heavy... I think it is not something which deserve the crap word, but simply something which doesn’t match anybody taste. It is not like a GF keyboard I have tried which had too much friction (but I feel it only once... perhaps a manufacturing issue not the design of the model).

It's the only action i had an awkward feel about it. It feels like playing on a typewriter. I never experienced this feel on any other digital or accoustic i had played.

Are we saying it’s all subjective and driven by our inner demons? “I hate; therefore I am”.

There might be something to this observation. I know for a fact that when I’m constipated and bloated my posts tend to be darker and, shall I say, crappier.
Conversely, when I am regular my posts are lighter and tinged with a light-brown hue of optimism.

Today I stand before you totally constipated; twisted into a roll with pain and ready to crap on everything.

I am the last of the -constipated- Mohicans!

Dang, Pete. While reading your post I nearly spilled my coffee.

You've outdone yourself once again.

Man Yamaha really stepped up their desigen even better than kawai.

I apologize.

Exactly! Most precise analogy ever! An old, non-electric typewriter. That is how the 675 and 685 feel.

Frédéric, do you mean disapointment? Deception is what some more extreme souls feel when they are disapointed. Maybe you used the word on purpose. In Portuguese (Brazilian Portugues at least) deception has a false cognate (decepção) that means disapointment.

As a former owner of the CLP-675, I was rather fine with the GrandTouch action after my short experience with my acoustic U1. However, after some months, I realized I was getting finger fatigue too easily due to the weight + stiffness of the action. I found myself having to take longer breaks in between practice which I've never experienced with all my previous and current pianos. Now with my N1X, I play to the point where I have to take a break only due to my bad spine

@EVC2017. Yes I am victim of a « false friend » an english term which ressemble an other French word with another meaning.

Join the club. ROFL I often see weird, even funny phrases on TV caused by those.

Yes, words in England are funny.

In America, knickers are half-length trousers. But in England, knickers are underwear.

In America, pants are full-length trousers (from the Spanish pantaloon). But in England, pants are underwear.

Hmmmmm ... there seems to be a pattern there.

Is that why american superheroes always wear underwear visibly?

Yes!

Why is the Clp 725 not with the rest of the lineup ? Was it the same for the clp 625 when it came out ?
The Clp 725 is the one I’m looking for as my first piano, I have been waiting for the new Clp 700 serie just for this model so its a bit disturbing to see that nobody is talking about it.

The x25 models always lacked most of the attractive features that people are looking out for on the higher end models, which is why nobody talks about it. One of the most important things missing from the 625 and its predecessor, the 525, is the VRM that boosts the realism for a digital piano.

This page from Yamaha shows the entire line-up, as it currently stands. And there is indeed no 725, but there is a 735.

https://dk.yamaha.com/da/products/musical_instruments/pianos/clavinova/index.html#d366071

It also gives the availability dates for the instruments (actually, availability months).

Note, that this page loads partly in English, partly in Danish on my machine, although I selected the global English website.

Are these prices very costly!! 👇

https://au.yamaha.com/en/products/musical_instruments/pianos/clavinova/clp-785/index.html

The 535 and 545 also didn't have VRM. The 635 and 645 do. But the x25 models are indeed very barebone.

https://ca.yamaha.com/fr/products/m...inova/clp-725/features.html#product-tabs
According to this page, it seems that the Clp 725 will have both the GrandTouch S and VRM. So maybe they are delaying this model due to the potential decrease in sell for the 735?
By the way, VRM is useless when playing with headphones ?

That's good news for those with a tighter budget. The effects of VRM can be heard through headphones as well.

Yeah, unfortunately this 700 line seems considerable more expensive.

Unless these prices are not accurate otavio

I guess this is a default feature on Yamahas nos but any mention about USB audio device built-in? I could not find it in the "feature" page in the website.

On the 600-series this was only avaöble from 635 and upwards but maybe the also decided to put in the entry 725 models now?

If they put USB audio interface on top of GrandTouch S and VRM inside the 725 model I don’t see any reason to buy the 735.
IMO if the VRM and GrandTouch S are indeed coming to the 725 model they will keep USB audio interface and line out for the 735. Personally, I’m fine with it. I prefer a midi to host in order to record midi via usb and use a nice VST for the sound. If all that is true then I’ll be really happy with this 725.

Unless you are on Australian website (au.yamaha.com) and prices there in AUD (not in USD).

Several things ...

As Daniel van Veen said ... the x25 models are indeed very barebone.
In the past the top-end Arius model ... either the YDP-x60 or x65, or the YDP-x80 or x85 ... would be a cheaper alternative.
These Arius pianos were almost identical to the low-end CLP-x20 or x25 units. The main difference was the slightly downmarket look to their cabinets.
I don't know, though, whether that still holds true with the current crop of YDP/Arius models vs. the new CLP725.
Does anyone know?

Otavio thinks the 700 line seems considerably more expensive.
I think that's often the case when a new line appears. But keep in mind that the "suggested retail price" is not the "asking price", and that the "asking price" is not the "selling price".
I think you can get 15% to 20% off the retail price at any time without effort. The dealer's ask will often take the suggested retail down that far on his ask/sticker.
And it's not hard to get 30% if you're earnest about buying.

It's hard, though, to compare prices across regions. Yes, you can easily convert currencies. But the regional price variations are huge.
In that regard I hear that the poor Aussies take it on the chin. The stuff is made right across the pond in Indonesia ... yet the selling prices in Australia are sky high.

And even worse ... Brazil kills it with their egregious import duties.
My daughter lived in Brazil when her husband took a post-doc position there.
He was a gamer. He wanted a new Playstation.
IIRC, it cost $400 in the US. In Brazil it was $1200. Yes, it's that bad!
I don't know about the piano situation in Brazil. Does someone else here know?

I recently watched a video comparing the 625 to the YDP-164, and there I learned that the Arius doesn't have String Resonance and Key Off samples. While the 625 does not have VRM, it actually does have String Resonance and Key off samples - which on the 635 and higher is part of the VRM. So, if the 725 gets the complete VRM, it will definitely have a more 'rich' sound than the Arius models.
This is the video I saw: clp-625 review

Unfortunately, the Download page of the CLP725 has nothing to offer.

When it will be filled, we should look for Yamaha Steinberg USB driver. This driver enable audio over USB. If only the USB-MIDI driver if proposed we would not have audio over USB.

Perhaps that's because the YDP-x6x is no longer high-end Arius?
It use to be ... but I guess the YDP-x8x is in that slot now.

Do you think you can find information on the YDP-18x and compare it to the CLP725 ?

But the YDP 184 is only sold in a couple of countries, for example in France it’s not available.

I didn’t know about the YDP184, which is not available in France.

It has a curious position compared to CLP625... not superior in every point, but not inferior.


YDP184 has 24 voices compared to 10, but only the CLP has the Bösendorfer. A nicer display, more amplification... but not binaural synthesis, no escapement simulation...

I thought that the Clavinova line was designed to be superior to the Arius line. With YDP184 and CLP625, things are more complicated.

Typically price is at least doubled due import duties and internal taxes.

I think that Yamaha Steinberg usb driver it´s a minor detail, not so relevant
You can get for cheap a Zoom UAC2 interface with (much)better latency than those Steinberg drivers, and more connections too.
For the usb ground loop, there’s a ton of options to eliminate that.

Yeah, Macmacmac
Brazil it's a sad country for those who want buy things, almost anything besides food... kkk.

Afaik the YDP184 is US only.

Interesting comment.Some sensitive people (esp. in America) would take issue over your use of "kkk". But I doubt you intended it that way.

Even so, I'm intrigued.
I don't know much about Brazil, and perhaps even less about Brazilian Portuguese. But my daughter spent three years there and she learned quite a lot.

She shared some of those things, and among them is the notion that Portuguese does not use the letter "k". Is that true?
That's was what made me surprised at your "kkk".

BTW, her name is Becky, and she said that people there couldn't make sense of it with that errant "k".
They settled on spelling it Bequi. Pronounced "bay key", roughly. Funny stuff.

Mac,

About the kkkkk, is a local onomatopoeic way to represent laugh (cacacacacaca or something like that) or ROTFL. Go figure.

Yes, K, W and Y were not in the official portuguese alphabet when I was a kid, now they are, even though there are very few words with them in the official vocabulary (lexicon?).

Nowadays there are a lot of given names using these letters, including weird combinations, just because they look fancy.

Also, you will find a lot of English words in use, often improperly, because using English (and sometimes French) looks chic. On several stores you will see "SALE" or "50% OFF" (verbatim) instead of the Portuguese equivalent. And around here, the term "Shopping Center" (also verbatim) has been used for several decades for malls, again because in the beginning it sounded chic when the first one was opened in the 1960s.


This one is near where I live in Sao Paulo.

Several english words have become the de-facto (if not vocabulary) standard, especially on technology and IT. I am OK with that, but uses such as the "OFF" and "SALE" above are ridiculous, IMO, even though I am not xenophobic language wise.

So...what do me make of this "marketing English":



I understand the axis and I understand the straight correlation line: touch speed corresponds to note loudness and timbre (loudness and timbre going hand in hand).

So, how am I supposed to play outside the correlation line?

How am I supposed to play a fast ppp? Or a slow fff?

How am I supposed to reach "Deep Solid" and "Light"?

I know the "image is for illustration purposes only" but what is it supposed to illustrate?

I understand the need for ‘Deep Solid’; I don’t believe anyone likes ‘Shallow Flaccid’, but who needs the ‘Warm Mellow’ when there’s always Sh*t?

And by the way, how dare they not throw in a shade of gray. Do they think we’re all happy and normal?

The “Well-Balanced Rich”, does it also work for the poor, I ask?


P.S.

I must say, this graph is highly scientific. Kudos to Yamaha!

I think they mean the various depths/regions of pressing the keys. For instance you can play a trill near the bottom, i.e. without releasing the keys fully which is covered by the triple sensors. However the hammer may accelerate too much bouncing between the key and the cushioning. Thus we have high velocities but shallow travel. On a real piano that won’t happen because of the backcheck. But on a digital the regular velocity detection can’t distinguish between a high velocity full-length strike and this shallow depth high velocity strike that happens due to excessive momentum gathered through repetition. Same with partial presses, etc. I think they model how a real hammer would behave depending on how deep, and where across the key travel, the keys are being pressed. I might be wrong but that’s my understanding.

Assuming you are right I assume it makes sense. 🙂

I was thinking about impulse as the physical theory in piano playing and a shorter impulse (with the same force applied) does of course transfer less energy as in the case of a shallower key travel.

So fast + long travel and fast + short travel could yield different results.

“ where across the key travel, the keys are being pressed.”

Un fortunately, with 3 sensors, the piano only knows if the key has been hit above the first sensor or below. (below the second it can’t time a velocity).

Then it is a binary situation. Not a continuous like the Yamaha's diagram.

I am not really convinced by the explanation of Yamaha since a fff is synonymous of fast touch speed. If the acceleration has been introduced (with the timing of sensor 1 / sensor 2 and afterward sensor 2 / sensor 3), it would be clearer, but it is not the case.

I understand what CG is getting at, but assuming this is the case, the physical (punching-bag) effect is still there. So I wonder how our brains/fingers would interpret the contrast between the real physical (punching-bag) act and the simulated (modeled) result.

Let’s assume that it ‘tricks’ our brain well enough not to notice the occurring physical reality, I’m not sure I’d feel ‘comfortable’ with so much trickery (at that price-point), so yes, I’m sticking with the AvantGrand!

Silly rabbits! That diagram has nothing to do with pianos! It's all about the variety of coffee blends.

I usually prefer Warm Mellow. But sometimes I order a cup of Well-Balanced Rich.

For me personally it’s definitely a major thing with an inbuilt usb audio device. Not having to have extra stuff around the piano is great. I can just plug in my iPad and use the apps I want with no hassle. If I upgrade to a hybrid I will go with the one that has an audio device I.e NU1X or N1X right now.

According to the MIDI implementation chart, it shows that key acceleration has been implemented (see the last page):
https://europe.yamaha.com/files/download/other_assets/4/1342334/clp785_en_mr_a0.pdf

In the manual, it also states that the Grand Expression Modeling feature is only available for the CFX and Bösendorfer voices, so it appears that this feature is not available for all the piano sounds.

Thanks for the share about the acceleration. It appears clearer like this.

There are two ways to implement it : signal processing or blending other samples (high acceleration samples/low acceleration samples). The second option could explain the restriction to CFX and Bösendorfer.

That’s a really interesting discovery!

Even if you have only three sensors, you can measure acceleration which is the speed difference between S1-S2 and S2-S3 speed. This can be used to create a model of key travel regions and key press depths. I’m wondering if they also increased the number of sensors.

This could be translated into a more efficient midi controller for the Clp700 range? Or this is restricted to the internal samples ?

@Otavio : since the acceleration is in the MIDI implementation chart, any expander/VST which supports it could use the acceleration to control the sound. However, it is the first time such a control is proposed. Then, no virtual piano is designed to use it.

Perhaps a new version of Pianoteq could be made to support the acceleration.

Making sampled based virtual pianos to support it will be hard : you have two axis (velocity/acceleration), then you need a huge number of samples, and/or a blending algorithm.

Perhaps some synthesizer (DX7 emulation...) can map the acceleration to a control which permits some creative sound control.


There is a nice video about the phrasing with the piano : https://youtu.be/JxPGkjgxCVQ

It would be interesting to have the same video made with a CLP7xx to compare.

Anyone got piano from the 700s series?

They are not available yet.

(Well, there was a CLP-760 released in 1990, a CLP-705 in 1993 and a CLP-711 in 1996. There's a sound sample of the CLP-760 so people can check if there has been any improvement in 30 years.
https://fi.yamaha.com/fi/products/contents/pianos/clavinova35th/chronicle/index.html)

Interesting...

Is the CLP-7x5 cabinet design different to that of the CLP-6x5 series?

James
x

I don't think it is.

This video was posted and discussed here 4 days ago.

Sorry, only saw this joke of a response right now. YOU are the one living in fantasy land.

Yes, I know several concert pianists that had no issues with the GrandTouch action. I didn't say thousands "love" the action. I said they sold thousands upon thousands and those people enjoyed it enough to not complain. This is obvious by the fact that they're still using the action. If it was really as bad of an action as people on this forum think then there would be a mass recall lol. The hate here is extremely amplified. On this forum basically anything less than a GrandFeel is unusable lol. Sometimes you guys are such elitists. I never asid anything about a concert pianist "on this forum". I don't know anyone on this forum. Ya'll are strangers to me. I would say you can ask retailers but they're obviously extremely bias in that if they sell it they'll generally say it's a good action and if they don't sell it they're likely to say otherwise. For privacy reasons I cannot name who I know. One of them is a YAMAHA artist so there may be some bias there but they were able to play top-level pieces with the instrument it's at the least not something that hampered their ability severely.

This forum may be the largest of it's kind it's still so small that we're statistically irrelevant- a few dozen active users on this specific section vs the thousands that actually buy these instruments.
"You think they sold that many?". You think they didn't? I said "thousands upon thousands" which is literally anything over around 4,000. They definitely sold more than 2,000 lol. You're ignoring reality if you don't think they sold a few thousand CLPs that used GrandTouch actions. I don't know why you're so offended by the fact that other people LIKE the action.

Lastly, "You appear to have taken that info and turned it into this nonsense you have spouted"

Don't put words in my mouth. That's vile. Maybe if you had an ounce of reading comprehension you would see that I never once mentioned anyone on this forum or hinted at such a thing. Don't put words into other people's mouth. Absolutely disgusting thing to do.

^ This video has been posted in post #1 in this thread.

It is live now.

So now I've got confirmation:


In addition, it was clearly shown in this video fragment:
https://youtu.be/9D2dLVgHLwc?t=421
And here as well:
https://youtu.be/9D2dLVgHLwc?t=446

Great.

And now it's over. Yamaha did answer a few questions:

‘.....the touch is more refined.....it is easier to have a much greater dynamic range and control......’

I thought they had made this claim before (with the CLP-280).

I can only assume that the 785 plays better than even an acoustic concert grand considering the CLP-280 was already ‘indistinguishable from the real thing’. If I remember correctly, it was so easy to play a trill on that instrument that the player need only think of it, and the trill beautifully played itself!

Good one, Pete. I guess Yamaha employs politicians ... because the "answers" to two of those questions were ambiguous and useless.

I suppose "Good question" means "I'm not allowed so say anything concrete". 😄

Someone had to ask them about the new Grand Expression Modeling...

Ooh...Grand Expression Modeling can be abbreviated as GEM. As in GeneralMusic. Maybe Yamaha bought GeneralMusic?

😉

I like very much that the display and touch buttons led turn off when you don't use it. Very elegant looking.

It sounds more bright then the 600 series which is personally preferable.
I think the kawai samples may be little better, though the sound will be personal preference. But it just seems the sample quality and detail is little better on kawai ca series

Also I hope the recording was not binural... the Yamaha binural is only specific to headphones output, the samples don’t play like such through onboard speakers

In that second video they say the action is improved. So, it's not exactly the same action as in CLP6XX series, but how/what is improved, that remains to be seen by testing. As I said, Yamaha are not known for admitting particular weak points in their previous pianos that were improved because that probably sounds bad They won't say "people complained about the initial friction, so we fixed it".

I didn't read the whole thread, but you don't think other manufacturers are like that also? (kawai, roland)

Kawai reveal more details about what has been improved in their action. They also won't directly admit about what was a weak point but would indirectly point to it. For instance in GF3 they improved the cushioning. This most probably refers to complaints about GF2 feeling too mushy. They also mentioned improving the capstan to hammer linkage (not sure how exactly they articulated it, need to find James quotes) which we already know means they replaced the faulty design with the teflon tapes leading to sticky keys.

My god the new clp 700 series looks set to flop big time, imo clavinova have only declined in quality over the years, peaking at the clp 380 which I owned, great piano and speaker system. I would only consider kawai key beds now, much lighter and realistic and easier to play like a concert grand is. Yamaha are overly heavy with all their keyboards. Their press releases and new instrument reveals and media are a joke now, no one is surprised or slightly amazed by anything new they bring out. I dont even consider them competition to the other brands anymore, they are a joke, trash company with garbage instruments.

I do think they have declined to some extent, but in the other hand competitions got better like kawai and Casio even.
Roland has also declined in the sound department , maybe not action.

Kawai! Kawai! Kawai! Kawai are the best digital pianos in the world. Period!

Hmm I think it might be true LOL 😂.

@mwf: I must have to admit that I was surprised by the key acceleration measure done to control better the sound. I don’t know other models which does that. Then Yes, the CLP700 did surprise me.

That said, I am looking forward to a demo of a CLP700 like the one I have published (done on an acoustic grand). See https://youtu.be/JxPGkjgxCVQ


Isn’t the CLP380 an AWM piano ? Then a tone generator which switches layers among few of them (5) with no blending... I am sure Yamaha has progressed since this model.

I’ve decided to set the ASP (actual selling price) for the new Clavinova CLP-785 PE at $4,000 out the door.

I have tried very hard to rate it higher, but as it stands, the GOP (gross over-the-top publicity) does not hold up with expectations.

I will revise my score in three years’ time (885), but at this moment not a penny more! (Oh, and the purchase must include a free Jansen bench).

Are you Graham Fich , the artist in the video?

GOP ? Perhaps, but Yamaha is not the only brand to be emphatic.


Let’s guess who wrote ;

The ***** Series is transforming all notions of how good is a digital piano can be. The ****** Series models combine the very latest in digital technology with the most advanced action to beautifully capture the essence of playing a fine concert grand piano. Play our ****** Series instruments to understand why they are among the most award-wining digital pianos in the industry.

Hint : ***** should not be replaced by an hybrid Series as it seems to be.

I have to admit: I grew up thinking I was eating the ‘best hotdog in the world’ at my local diner because they had a big sign saying so; turns out the hotdogs were made from leftover pig-guts and bald-chicken arse. I later found out the diner was shut down by authorities for health and sanitation violations and, as it turns out, for selling the worst hotdog on the planet.

The brain can easily be conditioned to perceive a reality that isn’t there; which is why manufacturers bombard us with signs/symbols and all sorts of subliminal.....

“Look at the watch ticktock.....you will love the 785; RGE2 (better than 1); modeled (it’s science, stupid); screen goes black (the universe is black); etc.....

I don’t value much the screen which goes black. But some other did it here and are unhappy with Kawai piano with an illuminated screen at the left.

Read here in 2017 :

....yes, but then there’s a thing called ‘transducers’. That sounds highly sophisticated and futuristic; you know, like “Transformers” (yes, they can transform into all sorts of things).

I wish I was, but unfortunately...

I quoted this video because it is the only one which compare the sound of the piano with different phrasings. And I am sure that Yamaha try to reproduce them with measuring the acceleration to control the sound.

I would be Graham Fich, I would certainly wait for a CLP700 coming in my nearest piano store, and try to reproduce what was demonstrated. But unfortunately....

This could well be a sales pitch from any piano. Any piano at all!
Even a cheap 61-key battery operated Casio from the 1980s.
Bullcrud is everywhere, in all piano sales literature, through all history!
I'm surprised they didn't include portraits of famous piano composers, alongside the claim that Chopin and Liszt would be pleased with the performance of these fine pianos!

They might still do that, if not now then for some later version (and actually, I think both of those gentlemen would have been enthused to play a modern day CLP ... or one from twenty years ago, for that matter).

😂😂😂, hold your horses mac. For me I am quite optimistic that the new clp 700 series is better than the old 600 series but not by far. But they sound good in the video especially the 785

To be sure the CLP700 will be loved by Chopin, they added some fortepiano sound.

On the "35 years of Clavinova" page Yamaha's marketing had to come up with nice things to say about some older models.

In the 80's they already "recreated the sound and keyboard touch of a grand piano" and it was "like playing in a concert hall or live performance club".

Later in the 80's they "faithfully recreated the grand piano sound [...] from the subtle attack heard when pressing a key to the rich reverberations and beautiful lingering sounds before the sound naturally decays".

In the 90's they "made an expansive sound with depth and richness like that of a grand piano" and "key touch was even closer than before to that of a grand piano".

Later in the 90's they "even more faithfully recreated the grand piano sound and touch" and "the expressiveness of the Clavinova evolved to a new stage".

Year 2001 "brought the Clavinova line as close as possible to the sound and feel of a grand piano".

So I guess after that there was nothing to improve then. And yet we got new models.

(https://fi.yamaha.com/fi/products/contents/pianos/clavinova35th/chronicle/index.html)

My point? None really. Just an observation.

Did these blurbs come with hip boots and a shovel?

😂😂😂. Believe me mac they sound good in the video especially the clp 785. Don't take a rash decision my friend until you test them

A 35th year retrospective is a style exercice... we can’t expect a “1983 : sorry guys, the ROM was quite expensive and we manage badly to imitate roughly the grand piano with whatever was accessible” It would be quite funny too.

Surely a 1983 Yamaha DP, FM based like they said was quite far from the acoustic piano compared with our nowadays sampled pianos.

I don’t know when a hammer action was released. It is surely an advance about the keyboard. I do remember having to play on a Roland stage piano (FP7 ?) with no or too light hammers, I didn’t like it.

I think the best sales pitch I heard was for the p125 , how the angle right front of the pianos row of buttons , is inspired by cfx.
lol 😂 🤣

Arguing marketing won’t help us to decide which piano is good. How about hearing from actual experienced pianists who have played a variety of acoustic and digital piano to tell us their opinions of the Clavinovas over the years?

The most ‘honest’ marketing ever published by Yamaha went a little like this:

“Sorry guys, the ROM was quite expensive and we manage badly to imitate roughly the grand piano with whatever was accessible”.

This brought tears to my eyes. If only they would do this today.

‘Sorry guys, RGE2 is basically the same as RGE, but in our defense, RGE is already very good’.

mwf, you are, of course, entitled to your opinion. However, from what I have seen and heard, the CLP-700 series represent a nice, steady improvement over the previous generation instruments. I also wholeheartedly disagree with the second half of your post.

Kind regards,
James
x

I don't know when I'll be able to re-visit my Sam Ash.
They had several 600-series pianos last time. I presume they'll eventually have the 700-series.

But ... will these have improved enough so that we won't need virtual instruments anymore?
Because the latter are so far ahead of what I've heard in digital pianos that I'm not holding my breath waiting for a piano to match them.
Still, I wish they would/could. I'd be happy to cut the cord.

Another video that mentions that they have improved the action (around the 12:00 mark):


I remember trying the previous version and deciding that the action needed to change.

Is it legal to kill people for such thing which they did during last few minutes of music? I lack words to describe this cheap criminal.

Wow.

You've got issues.

What's this trend for expressing everything in such absolute terms? No nuance, no subtlety. No effort whatsoever to acknowledge an opposing view. It's a sign of the times I suppose. Depressing.

Neither you, nor anyone else on this forum, has played the new Yamahas. With that FACT in mind why don't you re-read your post and ponder whether or not it was a reasonable thing to say?

This is exactly what I thought when I read that post. So much hatred, expression, vivid epithets, which instantly make such kind of posts worthless for me, and the person writing it simply ceases to be taken seriously (to paraphrase his phrase "they are a joke" I would say "this post is a joke"). Especially if the person has recently bought Nord, but continues to follow the topic of Yamaha, where he considers it his duty to state once again that "Yamaha is bad" (is he trying to convince someone or himself of this? Or is it something personal between him and Yamaha?). I was only surprised that some were still trying to discuss with him after that, which is useless, since here is a hopeless case.

According to the linked videos, i don't hear anything new in the sound generation. It could have been recorded by the 6xx model series and i wouldn't notice it.

To calibrate our ears and be on the same page, were you able to hear the vast improvements in the CA79/99 piano sound compared to the NV5?

By the way, despite the flippant comments and occasionally venom-dripping remarks in this thread, I don't think Yamaha would be very worried if they were made aware of it. The fact that the thread has over 250 posts and more than 7000 views, even if the actual release of the 700 series is still a couple of months away, speaks volumes about the interest and anticipation around the new series.

We live in a bubble here There are some discussions, talks, battles, teams, preferences, praises, hate... I mean it certainly looks like the life is going on and we represent the entire world. Nope! We're just a tiny (closed?) society that is 0% representative for the real life digital piano buyer And our reality is so twisted and distorted, Yamaha couldn't care less about us. That's the painful truth.

Never sat down at a CA79/99 nor i had listened to a recording of them.

I believe we need the ‘flippant-venom-dripping’ alongside the flowery utopian kumbaya.

No, the new Clavs aren’t as bad as the worst comments suggest, but they’re also not as good as Yamaha claims. It’s as simple as that. This should be obvious to even the most naive out there. I don’t think someone looking for info here (newbie) will resolutely take Pete’s claims/comments as the gospel of all gospel; if so, that person has bigger problems that need further evaluation and treatment.

We must -collectively- take everything with huge chunks of salt; if not, we risk paying thousands of dollars for a Gucci bag because, you know, Gucci says so..........it’s a freaking bag, for God’s sake!
(Sylvie medium crocodile top handle Gucci bag: $34,000). Is this the world we want our children to inherit, I ask?

If we only keep the flowery we are doing a disservice to the global community and making it easier for Yamaha and friends to sail along the path of BS without soiling themselves in the process.

Corporations are not people! We need to constantly remind them of that and treat them accordingly!

Why do salesmen keep on mentioning how when you play harder the sound gets louder? When was the last digital piano released without dynamic keys? Was there one ever?

@mwf,
I certainly love my Kawai but i think Yamaha CLP pianos have some strong points too: the quality of their amplification, the binaural sampling with it's sound clarity. I agree that the action on the Yamaha is heavier, but some like it heavy.

Going to reserve my judgement of the CLP785 till after I've played it: Yamaha binaural sampling always sounds better to play than they sound on YouTube.

As for their marketing: I'd like to know what is the difference between VRM and GEM. I mean, modelling is modelling, so why create a new abbreviation for the modelling different aspects of the piano.
At the end of the day, it's still hybrid binaural sampling/modelling, just that they've extended the modelling to cover more parameters.
With tongue firmly in cheek: Yamaha is edging towards modeling like a child does to a swimming pool; alternatively, It's like the human which is slowly becoming more and more of a Cyborg (*or a CyberBorg TM.). At some point, the last vestige of sampling will disappear in the year 2100 lol.

If it carries on like this, there will be soon a long list of abbreviations for every aspect of an acoustic piano modeled on a Clavinova. At least they don't obfuscate as well as Roland do.

“....sampling will disappear in the year 2100.....”

Sampling has at most a decade and then it’s done (probably sooner).
Now, it won’t completely disappear because, after all, who wants to model a barking dog, a door bell, or a whistle? For these things sampling will remain; however, for musical instruments......NO!

That's how I felt in 2009 lol

In regards to modeling: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spherical_cow

GeneralMusic with their GEM does the same : Natural String Resonance, Filter Algorithm Dynamic Emulation, Advanced Release Technology and Damper Physical Model...

The different keywords are made to mean that digital piano makers do something more than the last time.

Even if Yamaha introduce what they call « modelling », I think it is quite far from pure modelling. It is not the same thing to filter a sample (I suppose Grand Expression Modelling does this), than to build a signal from scratch (sine functions and others...). Then a « modelling » enhancement doesn’t mean a direction toward getting rid of samples. One of the main drawback of sampling is the amount of memory needed to store unlooped samples. It won’t be an issue in 2100.

In 2100, besides most if not all of us being comfortably dead, thus not giving a damn about the technology being used by then, and assuming there will still be humans in the world, most probably all of the techologies currently will be more than obsolete and they will think "how in the heck they did not figure out this technology we use now, it is so obvious!"

I will not be dead by 2100!

I plan on uploading my consciousness onto the ‘cloud’; I will then exist forever in the virtual realm and will still be able to interact with outdated -biological- entities.

Yes, I will be able to fly past the sky, the stratosphere, and the stars; whilst biological entities sit in their cubicles and wonder “why can’t I fly past the sky like Pete”? Well, you missed out on the opportunity to upload when it presented itself, so yes, now you’re stuck being you; whereas, I can be anyone/anything I want!

Sampling won't die on its own. Modeling will have to be better before sampling goes away. So far modeling fails at that.

Notice that only Roland and Pianoteq use modeling. Are there others? If so it's still a minority.
So even the piano makers and VST makers have little faith in modeling. They use it only to fill in "gaps".

Okay, so we've figured out who's been watching "Upload" on Amazon during the pandemic...

Pete, after watching Altered Carbon, I am pretty sure I would choose NOT to pursue this path.

There is probably quite a knowledge gap to climb in order to implement that level/quality of modeling. Maybe if someone invents another approach that has massive advantages, we'll see a different competitor entering the marketing.

I’m sticking with Kurzweil on this one!

Adios, amigos! (Well, not yet; but when the day arrives I will utter those words with absolute joy).




P.S.

I’m not familiar with “Altered Carbon”, or “Upload”.

I wonder whether the biggest sticking issue with modelling is modelling of reverberation. I have tried running Pianoteq, without any of its own reverb, through my Yamaha AV-Receiver with its sampled reverb, and the result is a heck of a lot more believable than Pianoteq left to its own devices.["Heck" in the previous sentence was a political correctness forced by Pianoworld. ]


How about "Lawnmover man"?

I spoke to Hugh Sung at Cunningham Piano about the CLP-700 series, especially the CLP785. He said it was too soon to know the changes (if any) to the action, pedals or speaker/amp system, but he told me about three new features. One, the touchscreen control panel. Two, binaural sampling for the Bosendorfer Imperial sound sample. (Beforehand only the Yamaha CFX sample was binaural.) Three, some fortepiano samples - of interest to pianists who would like to know what Late-Baroque, Galante, Classical and Early-Romantic piano music sounded like in their respective eras.

Hugh also said that the new pianos won't be available in stores until late August at the earliest.

I agree. Sampling on a digital piano will progress since memory will become cheaper and cheaper. Then piano makers will have fewer incentives to go to the modelling path. Unlooped samples on digital piano or synthesisers does exist now (Kronos, GEWA).

This doesn’t exclude some kind of modelling (resonance, key acceleration handling...) but the basis remains a sample.

“How about "Lawnmover man"?”


“That movie is up there with the very best“. A direct quote from James Cameron!
Spielberg also lauded the acting and the “superb” special effects.

This is truly a cinematic event that stands alone at the very top of the genre; but I ask, is it science fiction or is it simply science reinterpreted through the prism of an artist?

Black Mirror!

Many episodes of consciousness uploading...

...with pretty bad results.

I do not remember any with this theme, though it must have. I remember well the first one (very disgusting), the one with Bryce Dallas, the Metalhead one (favorite of mine) and the one of the museum I did not have the guts to watch beyond half.

EDIT: Oh, and the one with the "bad scenes blurred by mom"(very good also).

What a crazy idea. You've really lost it this time. This is clearly a non-PW compliant approach. I'm thinking maybe you should be banned.

So come along Doug. You KNOW how it's done on PW...

Pass judgment NOW. You don't need experience or any evidence to support whatever statements you might wish to make about these new pianos. Just pontificate now. Make baseless assumptions. Do it now. Condemn. Ridicule the maker. Act NOW to poison everyone's mind. Time is running out. Plunge the knife in right up to the hilt. It's no fun otherwise.

Problem with that is that I liked the CLP685 a lot.
So unless they ruin it, the only complaint will be: is the upgrade really worth it?!
I'm getting right behind the Yamaha now, so that I can stab it in the back later when it disappoints me like the Roland LX708 did (Roland in the sin bin).

Tut tut tut. Sorry, but such a rational approach will not go down well here. Why wait? - just stab it in the back (and front, top, bottom and sides) now.

If I didn’t know you any better, I’d say you’re being sarcastic; am I right in this observation?

If you’re not being sarcastic, then I fully agree with you: stab them MOFO’s right where it hurts!



P.S.

And now I take cover!

So I have to ask now does the new CLP series come with the hammer and nail or is only in the smart app LOL

Can't wait to check out the "Grand Expression" thing. Bored with tri-sensor - need something new.

Greg

Opinions are opinions. I for myself can live with that. No need to be salty because other people like things that i don't like.

A don't mind being 'Asalted' for shits and giggles lol

You know what they say: you have to get right behind someone in order to stab them in the back
fyi

Or to quote Joni Mitchell...
I've looked at Yamaha's from both sides now
From up and down, and still somehow
It's Binuaral illusions I recall
I really don't know 'the number of velocity levels' at all

lol, all in jest, I of course expect the CLP785 to be annoyingly good without being ground breaking i.e., compared to the competition, that is, until some competitor makes a leap forward in amplification quality and in the sample clarity (to match the binaural sampling technology).

Still, I think there will be room for improvement in the expressiveness, the warmth of the sample tone, and the action. Can't wait to try the CLP785 and the Kawai CA99/Novus5/10.

I didn't understand a word they were saying; it was all in Japanese! Thank god it was subtitled!

Incidentally, the little we actually heard of the piano sound did not entice me one bit. It sounded tinny and toyish.

Couldn't understand a word The only person on this forum that I think might know Japanese is James but he will deceive us!

I don't know about the sound itself but resonances sound pretty good.

I speak a little Chinese. I think she said that the new 700-series has new and improved chrome trim, shoulder pads, whitewall tires, and a pair of his-and-her cup holders.

What about the Japanese massage. I'm not buying if that isn't included LOL

I just spoke this afternoon to Rich Galassini at Cunningham Pianos. The differences between the old CLP685 and the new CLP785 are very modest. The new model has a touchscreen control panel. The new model also has four fortepiano samples - "Scarlatti", "Mozart", "Beethoven" and "Chopin". Finally, the Yamaha CFX and Bosendorfer Imperial sounds on the new model have binaural headphone sampling; the old model had binaural sampling on just the CFX sound.

Other than that, the CLP685 and CLP785 are pretty much identical; no changes at all to the action, pedals and sound system. Some of the less expensive CLP-600 models have been discontinued and not replaced by CLP-700 models. Some of the actions in the less-expensive CLP-700 models have been changed from their CLP-600 counterparts.

As I said earlier, the changes between the two series are very modest. Which is just as well, since I own a CLP685!

Arguably the most important information. That's going to be a real bummer.

I like to visit PW, one of the important reasons is that I can often see your wonderful comments, Mac

According to the Yamaha site (which is not clear) and the MIDI implementation chart, the new sound system system is sensitive to the key acceleration.

Note : the lecture http://www.speech.kth.se/prod/publications/files/qpsr/1991/1991_32_4_019-034.pdf has a conclusion about the difference of timbre between a staccato and a legato. Then it makes sense to measure velocity AND acceleration.

So not much changes. As expected.

The addition of four more samples could be good. But ...

If they added more sample memory for the new voices, I'd rather they skipped the voices, and instead used the memory for improving the two existing voices.

If they did not add more sample memory to accommodate the new voices ...

I wouldn’t trust what the dealer told a customer who recently bought a CLP-685 from his store First, the new pianos are not yet at most dealers and dealers rarely know anything besides the brochure information. And second, of course the dealer will say “I didn’t sell you an inferior piano”. Let’s see how the dealer will advertise the CLP-785 to a person who’s there in the store and chooses between it and a used CLP-685 on the Internet 😁

Yes it's completely true and added to this that yamaha said in the 15 minutes video improved grand action so yamaha is a big company and when they said improved action so we should trust them even if it's a slight improvement but the result is the same which is improved action.

I’m thinking they probably did not add more ‘memory’ space for the so-called new pianos. It shows how these manufacturers are simply playing games with us.
These ‘period’ pianos are a gimmick. The truth is that the charm of these instruments extends beyond the sound: Narrower keys, smaller frames, overall different building-materials and other aspects unique to their corresponding time periods.

Yamaha has simply captured (I assume) one component, so it won’t be much more than gimmicky presets, but guess what, they know this trick sells.

I have to say these were my thoughts too. And having watched Rich and/or Hugh in some of their videos they never really say anything meaningful (and certainly there's never even a whiff of criticism) - about anything. It's all just super-polite, syrupy guff.

I think the result will be the same like this:

I'm sure I'll need to borrow this phrase ...

Ha! Please do!

Are you using the Scottish (?) interpretation of "guff"?

James
x

Erm...guff as in 'nonsense'.

But yes I'm not sure whether it's a Scottish useage but when I was at school there was a different meaning if someone had 'guffed'!

Thanks for seeking clarity on this important matter James.

Nice sound and nice playing (when he starts to play about 8:36). In the above video I think he doesn't use any reverb, so we can hear the clean samples without alterations. That's good.
IMHO Yamaha piano samples on their DPs are very well balanced. Honestly, I would not feel the need to use a VST on such a Yamaha DP.
I especially like how they sound in the lower octaves. Rich, but not overly-bass (unlike most Roland) and no exaggerated volume on the first octaves (unlike most Kawai).

They need to put some dsp in these pianos for top class effects, like convolution reverbs, good parallel compression and a multiband graphic eq

The 88 keys take up over four feet of space. There's no room for those extra features! But seriously ...
No acoustic piano has those features. If the goal is to mimic a grand piano, then there no place for any of those items.

I agree, if you play from internal/external speakers it's better to disable reverb effects, because they alter the original sound of the notes and the natural reverb of your room. But with headphones a little reverb is good and makes the sound more realistic, because with headphones you cannot hear natural ambience resonances, being that the sound goes directly to your ears.

Since headphones samples are binaural, Yamaha could (should?) have recorded a minimum of natural reverb, like the Garritan CFX where we ear the Abbey road room reverberation.

Doesn't that depends on the recording environment? If they recorded the binaural in an anechoic chamber (perhaps because they expect after-the-fact reverb to be applied by the user) then the sample would be just as dry as the sample.

They leaked the presentation through another channel. For those who understand Indonesian. I couldn't bear it myself (and it's not about the language).

I speak a little Indonesian:

She says the piano is uncannily close to the real thing, and that she can detect all sorts of subtleties between ppp and fff. “If I hit the keys real hard, I hear a very loud but complex response“. Her favorite finish is the rosewood.

And about that action, it is simply indistinguishable from the real thing, “how did they do it“, she says.

Needless to say, she firmly believes this is the best digital out there.


P.S.

The song at the beginning is about love, peace, and the world coming together in kumbaya-well-balanced richness!

Infinite sense of humour reported! Read the post at your own risk if you are too serious about digital pianos!

Isn't the CLP685 sensitive to key acceleration as well?

Ah! But she's lovely. She can say do what she wants, do what she wants!

I'm glad to know I'm not the only one confused by the 700 series, LOL. I'm on Kraft Music, comparing specs on the 600 and 700 GPs and.....so, why did Yamaha do this? The 700 series of GPs drops midi and Bluetooth, opting only for USB. The 600 series had all 3. 4 more voices in the 795. Grand Touch S action in the 765. Supposedly some different sampling?

That's....about it?

I expect there are more "under the hood" changes that aren't immediately obvious from comparing specification tables. This is why it's important to play-test instruments in person whenever and wherever possible.

Kind regards,
James
x

I have been looking at the specs of all the models in the 700 series on the Yamaha website, and it seems like only the CLP 785 has the counter-weights. Which is the most expenssive one, probably gonna be around 4000,- euros, if not more.

Which is kinda weird, cause i belive the CA79 also comes with counter-weights, and is around 3000,- euros, a thousand euro less.... am i missing something?

The CN29 is around 1250 Euros and also includes counterweights. However, this doesn't necessarily mean that the CN29 (with counterweights) is a better instrument than the CLP-775 (without counterweights). It's important to consider the instrument as a whole, rather than focus too much on individual specifications.

Kind regards,
James
x

So , i really cannot sense counter weights on digital actions. For example, I believe es8 has counter weights, and i couldn't sense something different than nwx action other than the usual differences because it is different, but has no counterweights

Counterweights are just another silly emulation on digital pianos that shouldn't be there On real acoustic pianos the bass hammers need to be big and heavy and that makes the downweight of these keys too high which affects pianissimo playing. When you play very quiet the downweight is most easily perceptible and would act almost like a spring against your fingers. By adding lead weights you put the downweight within the expected range and so pianissimo playing is more predictable and even across the keys. But it adds more inertia to the keys and that feels like sluggish keys on fortissimo strokes It's a sacrifice.

I understand the viewpoint that digital pianos should emulate acoustic pianos even with their quirks, so I'm OK with that. However going as far as making the bass keys overly heavy as on a big concert grand and then putting counterweights is just a silly thing IMO. The keyboard in the Cybrid doesn't have counterweights and even without them the bass hammers are not very heavy, the downweight is around 50g and then the treble keys go as low as 36g downweight and honestly that's so pleasant to play. I believe it's from a small baby grand. Coincidentally I read some passages from a Chopin book with quotes from Chopin himself and his students about how his preference has been always for the Pleyel as having very light keyboard with shallow key dip. His fortissimo was nowhere near today's thunderous tone and he never played too loud, referring to "dog barks" when his pupils played too loud. I understand it's all about preference after all. But if it was me, I'd prefer keyboards with light hammers and no counterweights.

As I understand it, counterweights are not some fundamental principle/requirement for a key or action. They're a tool that can employed when the need arises. So if you have a key that is unbalanced because it's too heavy on the action end of the balance rail, or an action that is on the heavy side, one way you can mitigate it is with counterweights on the front of the keys.

Taken by itself, advertising counterweights is kind of odd IMO. It's kind of like saying "our keys/action aren't well-balanced so we've fixed them with counterweights."

Also, counterweights have their own drawbacks, such as increasing dynamic downweight, slowing key return and repetition rates, etc.

As Kawai James says, don't just assume actions with counterweights are better by nature of having them. An ideal action would probably be designed to minimize or eliminate the need for counterweights; but counterweights can be an effective solution if your action can't be designed that way.

“Key weights”, as well as “escapement “, are simply good for selling/marketing digital pianos to those obsessed with coming as close as possible to the real thing regardless of whether some aspects related to the ‘real’ thing are not relevant to the digital domain, and, sometimes, even make things worse.

Most people haven’t got a clue why these weights exist on an acoustic piano, but if a digital also has similar weights it must mean that the digital “is closer to an acoustic”.

If I’m not mistaken, escapement on a real acoustic happens by fault rather than by default, yet many here would not buy a digital if it doesn’t have that “click” that feels so good!

Bingo! The mechanics and dynamics of acoustic pianos present design problems and force compromises.
So it's odd and silly that digital pianos should emulate those problems and implement the compromises ... all in the name of authenticity.
It's absurd.

If digitals had been invented three centuries ago, how many of the compromises would be present?
Would counterweights be there?
Would escapement?
Would wood?

There are other electronic keyboard instruments that are not designed to be acoustic piano substitutes.

If you don't want to play an electronic instrument like the piano is played then get one of those.

I don't see any problem in digital PIANOS trying to faithfully emulate a "real" piano.

But I also don't diss these digital substitutes and say that the ultimate goal should be getting an acoustic.

Of course some of the emulations might not really be needed for most of the world's population (like me) who are clueless enough to not miss the feel of the escapement for example.

The key-off sound in the harpsichord ("cembalo" in some languages) is also a side effect of the action design.

How do we feel about harpsichord sounds in digital pianos that omit that sound?

We say that they are not authentic.

I believe the general consensus among those who have played actions with and without counterweights is that their presence in digital piano actions improves the key touch. For example, most players prefer the RHIII action (with counterweights) to that of RHII (without counterweights). The same is often said for the CLP-685 (GrandTouch with counterweights) vs the CLP-675 (GrandTouch without counterweights).

Kind regards,
James
x

@Kawai James, my impression of counterweights were that they where added as such, so one could have more control overall, or like play repeated notes faster....

Thats why it kinda weirded me out when i saw that only the most expenssive one came with counterweights, and the other models dont. So, one immediatly thinks "this one comes with counterweights and is more expenssive, so it must be an better digital piano"

But, looking at some of the comments, some people dont care about the counterweights.... they are fine without it, it seems.

I myself, have been playing on a N1 AvantGrand these passed few years, (which ofcourse has a real grand action build-in) so by no means am i an expert when it comes to digital pianos, as i dont have much exprerience with them, and the "bells and whistels" or "extras" they come with

Me, personally, care only about the piano sound, and the feel & touch of the keyboard. (as in, does it come close to an real grand action as close as possible) The rest i dont need.

Clp 785 - Sweetwater


Sweetwater usually releases videos in advance about new releases for sale
Let's hope we have a Yamaha video soon.

I wonder when the CLP-800 series pianos will make their debut?

The feeling of the escapement mechanism is used by pianists to sense the point in which one can press the key without having the hammer strike the strings. This effect can be used musically to make certain notes sound sympathetically, or to allow a note keep sounding after repedalling. So if a digital piano has the "escapement feel", it makes it easier and faster to find that point and to "play" a note without sounding it. Also, at least for me, an action with an escapement feel is easier to play pianissimo, especially on fast passages.

Some escape-artists claim that ‘escapement’ is useless; that is, unless there’s a well planned and properly choreographed strategy in place.

“I escape, therefore I’m not”! A direct quote from famed “artist” Harry Houdini.

This is true ...
This is not ...... unless certain conditions are met ...

The clicky feel is independent of the sensor response.

It might be that the position at which the click occurs ("simulated escapement feel") corresponds to the position at which the key/sensor is at the position where low velocity movement toward the bottom of stroke will produce no sound ("simulated disengagement of the hammer").

But there is no assurance that the mechanism can maintain this arrangement over time. And there's no affordance for regulating the behavior.

The clicky thing ("falsely advertised escapement") is just a flap of plastic that wears out. And the key sensors are not adjustable.

Maybe pianos with optical sensors could do a better job of maintaining the relationship between clicky thing and key sensor?
But the point is moot ... because those pianos have real escapement. No clicky thing.

I was about to get a CA78 but now I think I want to wait for the 745...just wish there was more actual real world tests of it already

Yes, you are absolutely right. But, assuming the physical click, the "false escapement" mechanism, and the sensors are appropriately adjusted to each other, I think it is a positive thing to have this escapement feeling in a digital piano.

First, it makes the DP's action feel more similarly to the feel of an acoustic's action. Escapement in acoustic pianos have a certain "clicky" feel, although not equal in all pianos and even very subtle, almost imperceptible, in some.

Second, I think the "false escapement" mechanism is not a merely cosmetic thing, since I suppose (correct me if I'm utterly wrong) it adds some (probably minimal) additional resistance to the action, and this is something that helps in pianissimo playing and silent note triggering.

Third, to say that the plastic piece that generates the "false escapement" click worns over time does not mean that I should then ignore if a digital piano has it or not. Manufacturers should simply try to make more durable and resistant actions that keep regulated over time. (As you said, maybe optical sensors could help.)

But... I personally would not buy a digital piano for serious playing or practicing if it didn't have the escapement feel, because _for me_ it improves my playing and makes the piano feel more similar to the real thing. But this can be different for other people. The important thing is to have a DP with an action that feels and responds well to the pianist's playing, independently of it having escapement or not. Just my opinion.

Yamaha says about the CLP-7XX:

”.......by carefully recording the entire tonal range of each of the 88 keys....”


I ask, could this be Yamaha’s way of saying no looping?

Maybe, maybe not.

But the whole tonal range will more probably mean “all the timbres” of each keys. Knowing that the timbre is here determined by a velocity and an acceleration which is new.

You will find the tonal word on a diagram (tonal variation) with two axis. Speed touch - softless/loudness which is quite inaccurate.

From the YouTube audio demo of the CLP-700 I'm sure they are NOT using unlooped samples......

I am waiting to test the 745 before deciding to go with Kawai. Is Kawai using looped samples?

Yamaha says ‘recording’ the entire tonal range, so this is not necessarily the same as ‘rendering’ the “entire” tonal range; which they can fake through some trickery.

If they say recording the entire range it implies the duration because if they’re talking about layers it becomes more difficult to establish what the ‘entire range’ is.

Some would say that even 100 layers per key is simply scratching the surface, whilst others will take it further by saying there aren’t enough layers in the universe to capture the ‘entirety’ of a piano’s tonal range.

So the question is, what exactly are they talking about? Range in terms of length (which is easily doable), or range in terms of tonal variations? The latter, it seems, is infinite; and only physical modeling can attempt to come close to it.

“The unquantifiable, infinite, and abstract nature of the piano is what keeps me going,” said Beethoven!

Don't you know better than to ask?
Or are you just being sarcastic? Perhaps Snopes has the answer?

With layer blending we can have 1 timbre per measured velocity... no need of modelling even if it is an approximation.

And with a Pianoteq + Roland experiment, I think I would prefer samples. Note that from the nearby thread about a blinded test real vs. Digital, the Roland is quickly considered as a digital (The justification wasn’t in english!), while some sampled pianos (Casio GP510, Kawai NV5) induce some hesitation or even a wrong “it is an acoustic piano”

Note : 100 levels is the achievement of VSL Vienna Imperial. But I suppose that we can’t notice a timbre variation between to adjacent velocity layers.

.......but Fred, why the heck do they say “we recorded the entire tonal range”?
Why not say, ‘we recorded some of the tonal range’?

Entire seems all too much; as if capturing the moon in its entirety, it’s just not possible with all those craters (don’t even get me started on the dark side.............
of the moon).

Come on, Pete. You know better than to take at face value all that bovine extruded matter thrown out in marketing materials.

We are talking about a marketing sentence, not a scientific sentence.

Surely, it would be more accurate to read “from the entire tonal range, we have sampled (let’s say) 5 velocity layers and 4 acceleration layers, in order to provide you a close approximation of a real piano”. But do you really think this sentence is marketing compatible ?

The marketing sentences do avoid the “key acceleration” words. We have to seek them in the MIDI implementation chart. I can expect any approximation from this marketing source.

So you’re saying Yamaha’s “Real Grand Expression” is neither real, nor grand, nor expressive?

Damn, Mac and Fred, that’s harsh

RGE was already used with previous generations of CLP, no key acceleration taken into account.

Now we have an « even more real grand expression ». But EMRGE was not a marketing compatible acronym.


In France we had an add for a laundry powder “more white than white”. I can’t imagine the next generation of the powder.

EDIT: Perhaps a new CLP line of products will be “more real than real grand expression”...

Perhaps this is what Yamaha had in mind for RGE ...

Yes, that’s what it is: “RGE” stands for Real Grand Espresso!

“RGE2” must certainly stand for Real Grand Espresso...with 2 sugars.

I wonder what VRM really stands for

But now we have RGE 2 and Grand Expression Modelling.

Don’t ask me which innovation takes into account the key acceleration... what they improve.

Wait, you’re saying we now have RGE2 and GEM?

We have both of them, but the acronym GEM is not used. Perhaps because GEM is already a digital piano brand registered by GeneralMusic.

If only Yamaha spent a little less in marketing and a tad more in R&D, but then again, something like “we did the best we could; why don’t you try building a digital piano yourself“ would not fare well; so yes, marketing gibberish is here to stay.

The good news is that we can at least detect some of the BS at play, but many out there truly believe every word printed by Yamaha’s marketing gurus.

For god’s sake, the CLP-240 is basically indistinguishable from the real thing (touch and sound) according to Yamaha.

For a company to run, it has to 1/ design and make products, 2/ to sell them. I don’t think it costs a lot to propose a new acronym (RGE yesterday, RGE 2 now) and a rough explanation. The quite inaccurate marketing sentences (no sign of acceleration, not the phrasing word, a graph with a loudness vs velocity - which are too closely related), could even make me think some parts have been simplified by an apprentice.

I find the use of key acceleration quite innovative, but since I am not used to real pianos and their phrasing subtleties, I would perhaps have an hard time to appreciate the improvement.


The expected evolution is unlooped samples, but they will perhaps have to improve the architecture.

I’m still trying to figure out what “AWM” is; never mind understanding the riddle that is “AWM2”. A lot of time and money must’ve gone into inventing these terms.

I can only imagine how much it cost to come up with RGE and then follow with RGE2. I never saw it coming (RGE2 after RGE), and that, my friend, is clever and expensive marketing.

VRM?

AWM is Advanced Wave Memory. I guess it is a way of compressing samples to improve the use of the memory. I don’t know if AWM2 makes the memory use more efficient or add some filters, but I guess there is an improvement. (Note : SF2 soundfont have a cutoff filter modulated by velocity... we can expect AWM to have a similar scheme).

Sometimes, the improvement is easy to describe (Kawai uses longer samples between HI-XL and HI... but I don’t know if it is a +25% increase or +200%). Sometimes the improvement is difficult to describe, we have to try it by ourself, but I am sure there is more cost in R&D to improve RGE than to describe it. (The Yamaha description is so vague that it can’t be more costly than the R&D).

From Advanced Wave Memory to Real Grand Expression. The first conveys advanced computing; the latter an espresso. So yes, you’re right, as of late, the money probably isn’t going into marketing.

But if it’s not going into marketing and it’s not going into R&D, then where is the money going?

I have told you, the marketing stuff could have been written by an apprentice. It is to vague to inform me about the improvement, I have to seek the MIDI implementation chart to understand, etc.

I am not sure nothing has been gone to the R&D. We have : key acceleration tone control (I don’t know other DP which supports it), touch sensitive key on higher models, a new keyboard (GrandTouch-S).

Note : when the money doesn’t go to a firm department (marketing, R&D...), it goes to shareholders.

MIDI reference is here: https://usa.yamaha.com/files/download/other_assets/4/1342334/clp785_en_mr_a0.pdf

There is key acceleration but I don't know how they use that MIDI data.

It would be surprising that Yamaha developed an acceleration measure and not use it. The marketing chart (tonal variation) shows a 2 axis diagram (but written by the apprentice, it is quite vague). Then I deduce the tonal variation to take into account 2 parameters : velocity and acceleration.

I have proposed a video about the phrasing impact (tenuto, legato, staccato...), even with the damper pedal (no impact of the delay of each note). Unfortunately, it has been done on a Steinway and not on the newest CLP7xx.

Grand Acoustic Imaging?

Did you get inspiration from Kawai (harmonic imaging) ?

No; this is yet another state of the art feature in the CLP-7XX.

It seems like GRAND is the revolving theme for the new Clavs: Grand this, Grand that....


I wonder what they’re compensating for

Here are the reviews (buyers guides) from Bonners Music.

CLP735:



CLP745:

  

Completely re-recorded CFX samples then...

New 765GP video up as well

@Pete14 : We will have Real Upright Expression, Upright-touch, Upright Expression Modelling. When the Clavinova will use an upright piano instead of a grand as a reference

I don't hear any difference in the recordings according to its predecessors. So it's basically old wine in new bottles.... again.

It appears that the major difference will be in touch/connection department.

Gp graded pedaling(775/785)/Lighter grandtouch keys/easier to play near fallboard(775/785)

How dare you, Tyr!

To claim Yamaha has done the bare minimum, and that there is no ‘real’ difference between 7XX and 6XX; this is blasphemy!

The science in these pianos is simply too advanced for us mere mortals to understand. Take, for instance, GEM; this is alien-level tech.

These instruments are at least 100 years ahead of us; this is why we can’t appreciate them: we simply don’t understand the advanced alien tech!


P.S.

Is Yamaha collaborating with aliens? How else to explain such advanced technology?
Surely, this is not the work of humans alone.

The Egyptians got help from aliens in building the pyramids, and I’m certain Yamaha got a little help from them aliens, too, for the creation of a new piano that is more than the sum of its parts; it is literally out of this world!

The tune at about 11:10. I've heard it so often, but don't know what it is. Can anybody advise / tell me where I can get an arrangement of this please?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I_Wish_I_Knew_How_It_Would_Feel_to_Be_Free

Brilliant, thank-you

9190, thanks for posting the videos! The video for the 765GP shows it with a touch screen, but the user manual shows physical buttons. I didn't see anywhere else in the video that showed that part of the instrument in detail. Do you know if the 765 has the same screen as the 795?

Edit: Tudor33's video did show a close-up. The 765GP does have the physical buttons. Thanks!

Yes, those videos of different models for previews just used the same image with the touch control panel from CLP-775. Only 775/785 and also CLP‑795GP have a touch control panel. Don't rely on those thumbnails.

https://www.google.com/shopping/product/10156476216622946240?q=clp+645&sxsrf=ALeKk03a8HLRMsWN2YkAPHomNKyMKm6x0g:1597449637420&biw=1536&bih=754&prds=epd:4556334982230437788,prmr:1&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjAgM_S85vrAhUlJjQIHRzBBnEQ8wII9AY
The new CLP-735 is only... 2700? tbh that's a really good price...

My local dealer was actually giving me a lower price than that and got me pumped..until I listened to it and played it.

If we are talking about US dollars, then I do not think at all that this is a good price for this model. I remember once I bought a new CLP-340 for $2200. Yes, currencies devalue, but nonetheless.

Tony from Bonners mentioned the action on the 775 feeling lighter than its predecessor. Looks like Yamaha have made some changes to the GrandTouch 🤔

Tony was more specific. He not only said that the action felt lighter, but that "the action [GrandTouch] had been improved for the 700 series". Thus, some optimization for this action clearly took place.

For reference he talked about the action in CLP-775 at time intervals 2:40 and 10:13.

And it looks like Tony clearly prefers GrandTouch action in CLP-775 over GrandTouch-S in CLP-745. He talked about it on 0:37 and 5:39 in the video comparing CLP-745 and CLP-775.

As we know, in the CLP-600 series, many preferred NWX action to GrandTouch. Now it looks like the choice between new revisions will be more obvious. But the rule "try it yourself", as always, is relevant. Another thing is that not everyone has access to such testing and comparison personally.

I wouldn't believe anyone about the feel of the keys until i tested it by myself.

Highly interested in the CLP745. I was already interested in the CLP645 because of the NWX keybed, which seems to be quite good (according to some reviews I've seen, especially the P515 review by James Pavel). CLP745 should be even better I guess (but what to expect?). No 700 series instrument available in the stores nearby yet, so I'll have to be patient again. (Also waiting for a Roland HP704 to test drive...). What I just don't get with the Yam 700 series (just like P515): where's the registration button/banks? Is this only accessible via the PianoSmart app? Does anybody know how to save your favorite sound settings with these instruments?

It's not about that. The main idea is that the same person feels the difference between the two versions of the action, and also says that some changes have been made. And many are just interested in: is there any difference between the previous revision and the new one. For better or worse, that's another question. And of course, it is best to try it yourself (if you have the opportunity), this is an obvious thing that does not even need to be explained. But if this is not possible, no matter how much you believe or not someone, you will still not be able to personally try it.

Quite so. What someone else thinks about a piano action doesn't really matter to me.
I have to try it myself before making any judgment.
The feel of a keyboard cannot be properly expressed in words.

This!

Which "this" do you mean, Pete? Your "this" is an empty quote.
Your this aint all that, is it?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7pXV2Gfhqb0&list=WL&index=9&t=553s


what's the name of this nicely piece/song at 8:00 (with bosendorfer piano sound) ?
Thanks

That was sorta the point.

For some reason 9190 said nothing in that post, and I, Pete, thought it poetic to say something about nothing; but I guess it didn’t work.

I got it but choose not to give Pete14 more encouragement. He post enough sarcastic replies as it is on this forum. I usually get a good chuckle out of them. Though they should come with a disclaimer so folks understand he is usually injecting Humor here.

Peace

But I was not being sarcastic, EPW, I was being poetically abstract (or so I thought).
I’ve been obsessed with the notion of nothing, zero, nada all my life.

What if there is something to nothing, I ask?

I guess it all went by past me like a double-helping of beans!

Please don't do that to me. My daughter is interested in Clinical Psychology. I get enough of those type of thoughts from her. I'm here to clear my head, not inject it will more of Nothing LOL.

I do want to try the new series from Yamaha when they arrive at my local dealer. Good reason for a drive as Andy's Custard is right down the street. Yum I just have to make sure I go to the Piano dealer first so I don't bring sticky fingers to try out the pianos.

You guys, I just noticed the CLP-775 is missing from the Yamaha CLP-7XX lineup (Yamaha America site) and also missing from a few dealer listings; ‘sup with that?

‘Tonight’ - Elton John

Doesn't anyone find it insulting yamaha are charging well over £3000, approx same price as kawai ca99 and not including counterweights in the action? They deliberately left this out and is only available in the 785! Deliberately leaving out counterweights in a piano priced as high as the clp685! Just wow!

At least, the X75 received a really nice upgrade in the speakers department

At first there was something, but then I deleted the content by editing the post, because in the post earlier (two minutes before my publication), another person posted the same that I posted after him (some new videos). Since there is no way to delete posts here, I left it blank.

I think the better question is why they designed an action that needs counterweights to begin with? Why not just build the correct weighting into the design in the first place?

How do those spruce cone speakers on the 685/785 compare to the soundboard speaker system on the CA99?

....and here I thought you were making a ‘statement’ by not saying anything.
I don’t know, maybe a silent protest of sorts; a stand against excess wording.

775/785 have transducers too(trying to mimic something like a piano soundboard, perhaps?)

I noticed that too. Originally I looked it up on the internet and got the French version but was curious to know what the 'transducer' was, so managed by a round-about approach to get to the USA site to see if it had any more information and, no CLP775. I wonder....
That white CLP-775 looked really nice but there's no hope in our household that it would stay that way. Pity.

In the past it seemed (I may be wrong) that Yamaha released all ‘upright’ cabinet versions simultaneously and then the ‘grand’ versions followed.

Now the grands are available alongside the uprights, but the CLP-775 is conspicuously missing; and not just from the website, but also from the few dealers I’ve checked online.

What’s the strategy here? Surely, Yamaha is not thinking about removing the 775 from the lineup (America).

The CLP-x70 models have been confusing items for years.

In the 200 series the x70 model was a big step up from the x40, and the x80 was another big step up.

But in the 300 series the x70 model was a small step up from the x40. Not worth it. This has continued ever since.

Time and again the x70 struggles to justify its existence. Too many tiers is unjustified. The x70 model needs to be dropped.

Just like they seem to have dropped the x20 and maybe the x30... because those are no more than cabinet upgrades from the top Arius models.

As i said before, X75 gives a big jump in speaker department. X85 stays the same.
The differences are getting smaller

Maybe you are right, 3xMac....

675 - (35 W + 50 W + 20 W) x 2 = 210w
685 - (50 W + 50 W + 50 W) x 2 = 300w

775 - (42 W + 50 W + 50 W) x 2 = 284w
785 - (50 W + 50 W + 50 W) x 2 = 300w

But why, Otavio, why can’t we get the new-and-improved 775 in America?

Because America deserves the best. And here CLP-785 is at your service. It is even better, and even more improved than CLP-775. ) Though, I don't like upright piano style.

These new 700 series don’t sound whole lot better than the 600 series , just little different .

I wonder if these manufacturers , in this case Yamaha, really does re record the whole sample of the Cfx, as they advertise...:/

Those differences are about as close to zero as you can get.Between 675 and 685 the difference is 1.5 dB.
Between 775 and 785 the difference is 0.2 dB.
(And that's at full power ... which doesn't happen.)
So perceptually there's zero difference.

But I'll ring the old chime again: Specs don't matter.

Interestingly, the CLP575 was two way (40+40)x2, compared to the CLP585 which was three way (30+30+30)x2.

Globally, the power increase and the CLPx75 is more and more comparable to a CLPx85.

CLP675 had already plenty of power. (More than the CLP585 !), then the added value of the CLPx85 is mostly the counterweights and the 480 XG instruments (interesting if you have a MIDI track). The CLP785 doesn’t seems me interesting, but for someone which have won at the lottery and don’t know how too spend its money, it can be a good product.

Do all those watt numbers mean anything? I used to own the CLP675 before switching to the NU1X which on paper has 180W to the former’s 210W. However, I felt the sound on the NU1X was clearer. That’s in addition to it having only 4 speakers against the CLP675’s 6 speakers.

Okay, this defies logic; how can a meager 180W four-speaker system sound ‘better’ than a 210W six-speaker system?

Surely, you must reassess!

what song is he playing at :32?

what style is that playing, is it jazz? I love it, it is so beautiful

l

Yes, it is jazz and Aled did tell me what it is but I didn't quite catch it. They currently have problems with phone and internet connections due to a lorry crashing into one of the phone boxes. He says the action is very nice. Must go in and try it sometime.

Are you located near this shop?
Did you try the clp775? how is it compare to 600 series, particularly the action and cfx sample?

I used to pop in there regularly before covid but as you now have to make an appointment I have only been to the acoustic showroom since their reopening, but hope to do so soon. Aled said that he liked the action - he, like me, didn't like the 685. As for the samples, well that is all a matter of taste and until you have heard them yourself you won't know.

I wish there was sheets for that exact arrangement.

Yamaha removed the aliquot resonance from the new models, I find it interesting why they did that , the manuals don’t mention it

How dare they; to remove the aliquot!

What next, are you going to tell me they removed the CLP775 from the American market? Now, that would truly take me over the edge!

I mention it because there were some issues with the 600 series sample, there's something wrong with the audio, there's something like background noise and there's hissing-like sound to most of the notes with certain effects . I had same complaint in my 515 which used the same 600 series sample.
Removing certain things like Aliquot resonance may have fixed it

@MacMacMac and Otavio about the CLP775 vs CLP785.

Perhaps the CLP785 pricing is set to make the CLP775 cheap in comparison.

See price framing (https://scottfenstermaker.com/marketing-psychology-price-framing/)

Without the CLP785, you would hesitate and choose a CLP745... with the CLP785, the CLP775 appears to be cheap in comparison, and you surely want to buy it !

Yeah, it's nice to have the 775 with a boost in the speaker system since those pianos will arrive at a high price, even more in Brazil.

I almost never considered CLP-x7x models, and for me CLP-x4x models always looked like an optimal variant. But this time, with the introduction of the CLP-700 series, for the first time I seriously thought that it makes sense to consider the CLP-775 despite higher price.

I totally agree with you. The cynic in me thinks it is quite clever of them to move the price/performance sweet spot higher up the price range!

What is different in the clp775 than previous clpx75 series?

Today, in one of the official Yamaha groups in one of the social networks, where the new CLP-700 series was described, I came across a fragment that was not mentioned in other official materials:

"Improved timbres and binaural sampling of Yamaha CFX and Bosendorfer Imperial grand pianos by adding additional layers of samples. This makes it possible to extract a greater dynamic range, from soft delicate pianissimo to powerful energetic fortissimo".

So I now have a better understanding of these very basic and abstract phrases, which are present on Yamaha websites:

"Yamaha faithfully reproduces the idiosyncrasies of these concert grand pianos by carefully recording the entire tonal range of each of the 88 keys, making minute adjustments to capture the most harmonious tones each piano has to offer".

Well, I managed to get more information from them. Not too impressed though. But at least some more specific information. Here's what they answered:

"<…> Starting from CLP-990 (2001), the flagship models had 5 layers of samples, and the lower models had 4 layers. The new CLP‑700 series, CLP‑785/795GP have 6 layers of samples for the Yamaha CFX tone and 5 layers for the Bosendorfer Imperial tone, while the CLP‑735/745/775/765GP models have 5 layers of samples for CFX and 4 for Bosendorfer".

I don't see mention of the CLP pianos in that quote ...Call me cynical ... but I tend to turn a skeptical eye toward promotional material.

So they’re bragging about adding 1 layer (785) over 19 years? Great job, Yamaha

Yes, it's impressive. ) A vivid and illustrative example of how fast manufacturers are striving to improve digital pianos. Well, finally a new series was released, in which something has finally changed in 19 years. )

Do they reveal the number of layers? My 2005-era CLP240 has three. The top-end CLP280 had five.If you can find the layer count in the new CLP700 series, then we can compute the layers-per-year metric.

According to 9190’s source the 785 and 795 now have a whopping 6 layers whilst the rest of the lineup have 5 (for the CFX).

A bit more information about the new GrandTouch-S action. Also information from the official Yamaha group in response to a question from one of the group members (comparison with NWX action):

"CLP-745 has a GrandTouch-S keyboard:
1) More grading of key weight between lower and upper register.
2) The fulcrum distance is the same as the NWX/GH3X keyboard, but the fulcrum of the white and black keys is in different locations, similar to the keyboard of an acoustic instrument.
3) Stability with full keystroke gives more control over expressiveness."

And they confirmed, that prefix "S" is for "Small".

So five layers in 2005, and six layers in 2020. That's a growth rate of 0.02 layers per year.

But it might even be less. That five layer figure for 2005 might be pushed back a few years if I had more complete information.

Regardless ... that promotional quote ...... leaves me unimpressed.

Me too. But before, there was a discussion here of what are these abstract phrases could mean. So that could mean that one layer was added. ) Well thanks for that at least. )

I don’t understand this: “the fulcrum distance (GrandTouch-S) is the same as the NWX....but the fulcrum of the white and black keys is in different locations...”

They’re saying the fulcrum distance is the same and different at the same time.
If the fulcrum of ‘the white and black keys’ is in different locations then how can they also say the fulcrum distance is the same (as compared to NWX)?

oh, and what about the 'other pianos?' Yamaha seem to be a bit coy about them.

It would be interesting to know what they are based on, number of layers (and any more information).
There are 4 mentioned in the owner's manual:
- Scarlatti Piano - has 'note off' sampling
- Mozart Piano - no 'note off' sampling
- Beethoven Piano - has 'note off' sampling
- Chopin Piano - no 'note off' sampling

They could be quite nice or.....

I clarified this question with them.

Me: "On the one hand, you write that the distance to the fulcrum is the same, but at the same time you also write that the fulcrum for white and black keys are now in different places... It turns out that the distance of some keys (black?) can't be the same. Do I understand correctly that we are talking about the fact that the distance to the fulcrum of the black keys has been increased?"

Yamaha Music | Steinberg: "Yes, that's right. The distance of the white keys to the fulcrum is the same as the NWX/GH3X keyboard. And in the GrandTouch-S keyboard for black keys, it is increased by analogy with the keyboard of an acoustic instrument".

That makes more sense; thank you, 9190.

It is not common for Yamaha to share much info, so this is a step in the right direction.

Now, if we could just find out if they did indeed improve the GrandTouch action.
Tony from Bonners says ‘the action has been improved....it feels lighter’, but this simply seems to be his perception; perhaps he was feeling a bit stronger on that day, and therefore perceived the keys to be ‘lighter’.

They shared some more information. Some of this has already been discussed. The discussion there is not in English, and some of the terms are very specific, I do not even find them in dictionaries. Just give a link to Google translator. You can try using a different translator or language.

Folks, now that Yamaha CLP-775 and CLP-785 make use of touch screens -- meaning they have become totally inaccessible to the visually impaired, do you know if there are alternative ways to modify the pianos' settings and options? Could this be achieved via Bluetooth using some sort of iOS app? And could it control all aspects of the pianos like initiating/stopping recording, altering Piano Room settings, layering the keyboard, etc? With the older interface at least we could initiate many actions via buttons or even alter settings by memorizing important places in the menu interface. But the touch interface offers none of that. And since we're talking about Yamaha, my concern is that some countries (including mine in the Middle East) might not receive the Bluetooth functionality -- similar to what happened with the CLP-6XX series. Yamaha has apparently -- and sadly -- joined Kawai in keeping the visually impaired further away from modern digital pianos! 😞 It's saddening to bid farewell to the best of Yamaha offerings in the CLP range. It might be wishful thinking on my part, but why can't digital piano manufacturers make the touch screen interface accessible to the visually impaired -- like what Apple and Google have done to iPhone and Android phones?
Thanks.

Many or most of the functions on my ancient Clavinova can be controlled remotely by sending MIDI commands from a computer.
I've sent a few commands that way, and it's not difficult to learn ... just turning local-control on and off.

If these CLP700 series pianos have similar capability, the it wouldn't take much to implement a full set of controls on a computer. Sending MIDI messages is easy.

For me the hard part would be creating a nice user interface.

Maybe with a fully programmable surface/midi controller in the midi input !?

May I ask where (website/social media platform etc.) did you discuss this platform?

Kind regards,
James
x

Amirhsol,

I expect the CLP-700 models will still be compatible with Yamaha's SmartPianist control app.

I wonder if it may even be technically possible to swap the CLP-775/CLP-785 touchpanel with a CLP-745 control panel, as the interface is essentially the same, just with touch areas where the buttons would normally be.

Kind regards,
James
x

So can SmartPianist control every aspect of the piano -- like switching to other instruments, recording, metronome use, etc? Of course, I should check to see if the app itself is accessible in the first place.
Thanks.

Do you mean the piano should always be connected to a computer via a cable all the time? Hope it's at least possible via Bluetooth through a smart phone. And can this control something like the volume of the speakers? Since 775 and 785 are button-less, I'm assuming that even something as basic as volume control has become inaccessible to me and other blind people.
Thanks.

I haven't seen the right cheekblock panel of the CLP-775/CLP-785, however I expect these models use the same power button and master volume slider as their predecessors.

My recommendation would be to contact Yamaha to confirm this and other queries you may have regarding the user interface.

Kind regards,
James
x

Sorry, but I'm not sure if I'm ready to share this information with you. I know that many pages with leaks and information that forum members share here are blocked thanks to you. ) And some forum participants were even banned, because of the leak provided about upcoming Kawai products, and inflated the problem of Universal scale (his last message for reference). Of course, no one will close that official group, but I don't want them to have any possible problems or stop sharing useful information.

I can only assure you once again that this is a large official Yamaha group on a large well-known social network. I think this information should be enough.

Okay, that's fine.


This is not correct, nor is it relevant to the topic of this thread.

Kind regards,
James
x

How do you think the price difference between the NV5 and the CLP785PE will be?
Or will the CA99PE be more comparable in price to the CL785PE?

My take is that the CLP-785PE will be more in line with the CA-99PE.
Personally, I would not pay more than $4,500\$5,000 for either instrument (and that might be pushing it).

While the staggered balance rail is a welcome change, I wonder if it has any meaningful impact since it's only the sharps that are lengthened. I've never really had a problems striking black keys even on short pivot DPs, since they're raised and have a lot of leverage. It's the sunken white keys you have to reach between the black keys that present the most problems IMO. Lightening up the black keys doesn't really help with this (but then again, I've never had a problem with the ~21cm pivot length of the GH/NW actions, IMO they're adequate, if not class leading.


Tony's gone to the extraordinary step (at least for a retailer "review" video) of breaking out gram weights to demonstrate how the original GrandTouch action was heavy. So I wouldn't be surprised if he does the same with the "new/improved" GrandTouch.

It would be nice if Tony did the same kind of ‘weighing’ with the CLP-785 indeed.
Now, some people also complained about an unnatural on/off ‘clicky’ feel to the keys amongst other things, so it seems like the complains regarding the GrandTouch went beyond the keys being heavy.

I never played the action, and of course there will always be someone who finds this action too heavy and the other too bouncy, whilst someone else finds this one too light and the other too fluffy, but the GrandTouch action has been one of the most collectively hated actions in this forum, so it made me wonder if it was more than just subjectivity when people said ‘there’s something wrong with this action’; and some of these were people who seemed to like the NWX.

Hopefully Yamaha has been listening and improving the GrandTouch action over the last three years (assuming there truly was something ‘wrong’ with it).

Agreed, Pete.
I would like to see reviews talking about this new way of distributing the speakers inside the piano and how much impact those transducers made....if was a sound/touch change or just touch (almost like rumble pack in the N64..LOL hehehe)

I noticed Yamaha is now ‘modeling’ duplex scaling instead of aliquot; is this better? Why not keep aliquot alongside the duplex scaling? Would this be redundant?

I have to wonder how much of a difference either really is!

The string, damper, and body modeled resonances do make a difference, but I also wonder how much of a difference duplex and aliquot make.

It would’ve been nice if Yamaha modeled the decay, but I’m guessing it’s just a matter of time before they go full modeling; 5 years, give or take?

When I search (Google), Yamaha CFX Aliquot, the only answer with all these terms are about Clavinova which does support it. Then I don’t think the CFX has aliquot strings, but there are always undamped strings in the treble.

About the duplex scales, on a photo, I see that half the strings are damped on the non-speaking portion. And for other strings, these portions are very short (I don’t expect many added partials excepted in the higher pitches).

Oh, resonances do make sense. The thing is, I'm not sure whether there is any difference between "aliquot resonance" and "duplex scaling." Isn't it the same thing--the use of aliquots or frames to tune the "non-speaking" portion of struck strings rather than mute them with felt runners?

Also, I don't think any current Yamaha or Bosendorfer actually uses true aliquot stringing (a non-struck, non-damped 4th [or extra] string per note), and I don't think "aliquot resonance" has generally been used to apply to true aliquot stringing.

My meta point is that there is so much effort spent in fine-tuning these relatively minor features such as aliquot/duplex resonances, but generally, full-scale piano resonances are IMO sorely lacking. Leave any 1yo kid in a room with a piano and what happens? They stomp the damper pedal and smash all the key over and over. There's a HUGE wall of sound that crashes and grows and rings out, louder and louder and louder. It's a cacophony of complex interactions, and even if you play "properly" you always need to modulate the damper more on an acoustic in order to avoid overpowering the music with a sloshy, muddy mess. That characteristic of an acoustic is so pronounced that you can immediately hear and identify it even in a low-fidelity Zoom meeting. No DP or VST even comes close to an old spinet in this regard, the resonances are too weak, hollow, and individualized. So I just find it funny that generation after generation, there's a little fine tuning here and there but the elephant in the room gets ignored.

IMO, Kawai's SK-EX Rendering takes quite a big step in the right direction here, but it's heavily biased to the treble range (as it emphasizes resonances from the top undamped octaves) and makes the top end sound quite bright in many rendering characters.

Hearkening back to Roland SuperNATURAL in the RD-700NX? Who knows where Yamaha/Kawai/Casio/Korg/Dexibell will go with this. I really have high hopes for modeling, but sampling is so mature now that it's hard for new technology to make headway just on the basis of a higher potential "ceiling."

Amazed with Novus nv5 speaker system+soundboard.
And this, only thru yotuube.
Soundboard/vibrating feedback will be the next thing in DP.
Probably a common thing in the next few years.