I'm surprised that there hasn't been any discussion here of Frank's decision to make this website subscription-only, where everyone can read the content but only paid subscribers will be allowed to post.

Does anyone have thoughts on what this may do to the number and quality of the posts here? I'm sure it will become a sleepier place than it is now. What do you think?

April Fools?

Oh just read the thread. I guess you’re right.

I wonder how much it costs to run the site and how much revenue he needs to generate. I wonder if it could be raised by donation if enough people chipped in.

Regardless I’ve been subscribing for a while and will be happy to continue to do so. Hopefully enough of the active members will continue to do so to keep it active. We should put together a list to see if viable.

The lowest level, Bronze, is $2.99. Multiplied by 12, that’s < $36 / year. Less than the cost of one single lesson. Well worth it IMO.

Wow, I saw the post, but didn't scroll down below the graphic, so I missed the bit about subscription required to post.

$29 / year with the annual subscription. I feel it's a small price to pay for what I get out of it. Maybe there will be more posting now with people trying to get their money's worth.

I'm curious if a subscription is needed to submit to the online recitals.

I would assume so, particularly given that the recitals are memory intensive.

In more ways than one, apparently.

Didn't know about it until I read your post - that's what I get for just hanging out in the ABF. And the announcement seems to be hidden in another post, so not very informative.

My first thoughts? If he starts charging he's going to have to upgrade and go mobile friendly. I say that even though I pay monthly already, but it's a voluntary "donation". If you start charging, then you have customers that have to be satisfied.

And it will probably cut down on the new posters. There are plenty of places on the internet where you can get questions answered for free.

The online recitals are hosted here, but they are not tied into the username/password database. As they exist right now, no PW account is required to participate.

Sam

I also donate, currently at a gold level. But not at the new gold level.

The way I read it - you will automatically get charged monthly or yearly unless you opt out. I *hate* automatic renewals and I wouldn't do it here. So if I subscribed for yearly (at a level less than my current one) would it automatically renew? If so, I won't.

His post also says you can subscribe without a paypal account, but I couldn't find that option.

And it's not clear whether if you just donate - say, my current amount - you could still post, or if you have to actually use the "subscribe" option and have - an automatic renewal?

Some questions from me, anyway.

I'm with you on automatic renewals....I generally don't do them. I do have a PayPal account linked to a very low limit credit card that I use for this forum, though, and it automatically renews for me. Just an idea.

Ah, EDIT - the subscribe w/o a paypal account is under "use a dr or cr card".

I do donate at > than the gold subscription, but < the platinum subscription

And I don't want automatic renewals

Can I donate, without 'subscribing", and still post? If there's no automatic renewal on the subscription I'm willing to subscribe and just remember to renew each year.

Just send me the check, Cathy, I'll figure it out! lolol

At the risk of sounding stupid, where is Franks post to be found regarding this decision?

I also missed the announcement - until this thread was posted.

Here is the announcement:
http://forum.pianoworld.com/ubbthreads.php/topics/2865260/i-subscribed-wheres-my-badge.html

I also missed the announcement. If I decide not to subscribe, I guess that means I will not be able to admin the recitals anymore

It's not that I do not value the forums or that I don't understand why this is needed, I just have some issues with such subscriptions in general and I sometimes think I should hang out here and post less anyway...

I missed it too. Why not create a subreddit and call it ABF? I think it's free.

<snort>

This is very sad. I would be willing to subscribe, but with less new people coming in, and members eventually not renewing their subscriptions, there will be fewer and fewer people to keep this forum alive.

I saw the thread title, but thought it was aimed at those voluntarily subscribing who didn’t have their badge, hence didn’t even read it.

I won’t be subscribing.

While some will argue that it’s only the price of a coffee/Ice cream etc, those people don’t realise not everyone has a disposable income, not everyone is working, not everyone lives in wealthy countries like say the USA, UK etc.

I can’t work for health reasons. Money is very tight (easily survivable but tight). I can assure you there’s many people in far worse situations than I’m in.

I go out for a meal 4 times a year. On my, my wife’s and my now grown up kids birthdays . I’ve only ever gone into Starbucks etc 3 times in my life.

Micro transactions all add up. £2 here a month, £5 there. For many of us, there’s only so much money to go round each month, and sadly if I had spare money, paying to make a few posts a year on here would not be anywhere near the top of my list.

There are plenty of other places with tons of piano info that don’t charge.

If every forum I visit semi regularly decided to charge the same amount, before I know it I would be paying £100 + a month just for full forum access.

Even if I could afford it (and if that was the case and it’s a forum I used all the time, I would voluntarily donate the odd £5 every few months) I wouldn’t support it out of principle. The last thing I want is charging to post becoming the norm for forums.

Very few new people are going to pay to ask a question, I suspect the amount of new posters will drop considerably.

What does need to happen is the post saying it’s sub only, needs to be reposted with a correct title so people know by its title that this site is becoming subscription only.

I don't believe a website whose value comes from independent content creators, can survive if it charges these content creators to create the website's content. They will turn elsewhere. Some sooner, others later.

The post is confusing. It starts as an answer to a post that someone asked recently somewhere, and then has this idea almost as a by-the-way afterthought in a place that is unlikely to be read by anyone who isn't one of the present subscribers curious about that question. Folks in the forum are up in the air, in an atmosphere of uncertainty. Many who contribute probably have their bags standing by the door already. It might be good for Frank to clarify things a bit. It is indeed sad, by the way

.

Yes.

Very new people may ask questions, but should the knowledgeable people who volunteer their time (teachers, musicians, advanced students, technicians), pay to answer those questions?

I don't think that there actually will be many very new people asking questions as very new people will need to pay to ask even one question. There are other places like PianoStreet's forum or Reddit's r/piano to ask piano-related questions for free. Those may be worse for one reason or another today, but after PW starts its subscription regime, then those alternatives will suddenly look better for question-askers. Those venues will pick up more questions.

Wow, this is some news! I thought it was a misunderstanding, but no, it's true! I really think Frank should have posted the announcement in a specific thread with a clear title, and should have allowed comments in it.

I know from FB that he is going through some changes in his life, I guess this might be somewhat related to that if he really can't afford to continue with a free forum like before.

I don't like the change but I think I will subscribe, as I owe so much to PW, and especially the ABF forum. I don't think I would be where I am in my piano journey without it. That said, I don't really need to participate right now, most of the times I just read here and there - and obviously after 7 years there's not a lot of useful new information that I can find here, I just like to see what's going on. There's already so much information in these forums, that I think nobody should feel compelled to subscribe just to get ideas on how to start, how to practice, etc. You can still read about all that. Maybe the search option will be used more often before deciding to start a new thread on the same old topics

At the present time, all new memberships on PisnoStreet are paid memberships. They are hoping to reactivate the free membership sometime this year. Personally, I don’t find that either compare to PW. I have no issue with paying; this site has asked for voluntary donations and subscriptions, but I assume voluntary did not generate enough income. .

IMO, When the forum becomes a subscription , everyone should pay. Otherwise, there would need to be some criteria to judge the quality of the answer and whether the responder should qualify for free or not. Just because somebody answers the question doesn’t mean they were qualified or that the answer was valuable to others. Everyone on this forum gains at one time or another regardless of their skill level or the frequency they ask questions.

Make everyone the same. Really. $3 per month is not huge.

I think that Frank isn't expecting very many to stay.

There are currently 93,770 members - and at $3.00 per month, if we all stayed - that'd net $3,375,720.00.

My guess is that he's expecting less than 1% to stay around as members.

PianoWorld's ABF has been invaluable to me (without it I wonder whether I'd still be continuing my piano journey) so for some years I've been providing financial support as a way of saying 'thanks'.

A monthly subscription is a small price to pay to help keep this wonderful site viable; I hope the vast majority of members feel the same way.

And how does one go about subscribing? I just did a quick search and couldn't find it.

On my cellphone, the subscription option is at the very bottom ... underneath the ads

Agree with this sentiment. Sad, indeed!

I agree with the sentiments above - I would not be where I am today without this forum. It is well worth the fee to me. I hope many of you who I consider my online friends continue. Some of us may be willing or able to sponsor others if the need arises. Maybe that can help.

I saw someone posted that Frank is going through changes, as per Facebook. I hope that’s not a health issue. If so, is there a backup plan to keep this forum running? I don’t have the technical expertise or the time to pitch in in this way, but others may be able to help if that is the issue.

What if the benefit of higher levels of subscription were increased edit time?!

I agree too. Very sad. While there are probably some exceptions, forums that go the subscription route usually wither and die. Been there, done that.

No, nothing like that! He's perfectly healthy as far as I know.

I am a sporadic reader and occasionally make a posting or submit answers and comments , and I make sporadic donations. I cannot imagine my life without browsing through the different threads when I feel the need for a little support or encouragement or just association with other piano players, since I my life I am the only one.
I only came across this idea of subscription by happenstance scrolling by things I don’t usually follow just for a change.
What would I do if it all became subscription and I missed it.....
Is it all getting out of hand? Is admin now chaotic? Will we all have to turn to a Face Book Group?
I think I would try subscribing and see how it goes. If it just withers away then so be it - that would be very sad......

I don't think that this is being discussed anywhere other than ABF,although the original post saying the site will become subscription only is posted elsewhere, and it's quite a serious issue in my opinion. I'm not keen on the idea really, and I guess whether or not I stay is going to depend on how things pan out. It's really the membership that makes this a great place to 'hang out' and it is unclear how many people will actually stay.
Can I afford it? Well, I suppose so, although being retired on a fixed income I'm not exactly rich and I have resisted paid membership of other forums and survived quite happily. Would miss PW no doubt, but it's the members I would miss and many may just move on anyway, so probably better to make a clean break.
Lack of new members who arrive with a question and then stay may, as has been mentioned, become a problem. A 'guest posting' thread may be useful - a way of kind of hauling people in, but I'm not sure how it would / could be managed.
I have no problem, incidentally, that Frank is doing this, and hope all goes well for him. I see no reason why he should subsidize something for us to enjoy - it's just a shame that things have come to this.

It is a shame we have come to subscriptions but Frank has been asking for donations as well as membership for a long time. Evidently there was not enough monetary response and it will need to become mandatory.

I find the free forums, other than this one, not to be useful and/or disorganized. If the ABF is ‘moved’ to Reddit, I will not be following as the ABF is not the only forum I follow here. I hope others will consider the value of what they get from PW.

I have been willing and able to donate the last few years. PW has given me hours upon hours of informative discussions, some not so informative discussions, of encouragement, of entertainment. The site relies on people willing to start new threads, to answer questions, to post an opinion on a topic. My gut feeling is that a paid subscription to post will be a short-term financial boost for Frank that will shrink considerably when the current batch of frequent posters fades away.

This place needs the occasional posters and the new posters to keep it alive and busy enough to sustain interest. Putting the roadblock of a subscription in the way will reduce traffic to a trickle. I hope Frank will reconsider and if he does and gives voluntary donations another chance, more people will go that route and maybe even consider larger donations.

I would think that when subscriptions to PW become mandatory and details are made clear, Frank will let us all know by a well-publicized announcement rather than through a passing mention buried in another thread.

In the meantime, let's keep speculation to a minimum and patiently wait and see what transpires and when.

Regards,

How about a metered system where users paid/character?!

Works for me. FWIW, I owe this site a lot and will stick around -- in fact, I had already subscribed before the announcement.

I hadn't contributed anything since a store purchase years ago, so I went ahead and subscribed last night.

I don't see the option on my profile page to display the subscription badge. Hey, Dogperson, I see you have 2 on yours , is one of those mine?

I'll stick around as well. But *if* it was my site/forum I'd think about providing an 'introductory' membership for $1, valid for a year and allowing say one post a week only - for the forum to avoid a death through starvation of new members there has to be an easy entry point so that folks can learn its value.

Agree in concept, although not necessarily in value. Maybe a few dollars, as $1 is too trivial to make it worth while from a bookkeeping standpoint. $9.99 / 6 month intro? Anyone with a question would think that's worthwhile.

What Bruce said. In Frank's post, in the Where's my Badge post, he wrote

S, it's not a done deal, there's no timeline yet etc. "Likely" is a pretty strong word, but I think speculation is premature.

Having said that, I understand the impulse to think about how to react. I've been a member here since 2004 -- 15 years! I have posted much less in the last few years, but always lurk. And now that I'm starting a grand search, I've been posting in the Piano Forum a lot. I have been assuming I'll really rely on the Piano Forum as my search continues. Even if I pay a subscription, how many others would? Would the drop in posting members impact the amount and quality of advice?

Guess I better hurry up and ask all my stupid questions, before it's too late!

Certainly, if you wait too long, you might find there are fewer stupid answers to you stupid questions!

Oh, interesting.
I have just looked up the original post and it says: "The forums will likely be changing to an all subscription model soon. "

Since "likely" is not "certainly"...maybe nothing will change at all?
Maybe this post is just meant as a "shake up", so that people get more aware of the financial burden, that a forum owner has to deal with.

I am very new myself and I probably would not have signed up, if I had to pay for it.

So I think, this option:


is a rather good one.

After using this forum more regularly (for a couple of months or so), I would “likely” ( ) be willing to subscribe it...but I definetly would not do that in advance as completly new user. I wanna know, what I am paying for.

Reading would still be free, so just by browsing anybody can get an idea.

The crazy thing is of course that the content providers would be paying, and the lurkers would be getting it for free. It ought to be the other way around, but of course making the posts invisible to newcomers would totally prevent newcomers from entering - unless it got the status of a mystic cult.

Based on previous discussions about forum slowness, I think the cost of supporting pianoworld is higher than it could be due to forum software being used (ubb threads). Same with mobile support.

I am happy to host an always free piano forum using some other software. I have enough disposable income to host a large forum for many years. Of course building it doesn’t mean people will come. Pianoworld has a long history and very supportive members.

And maybe posting here about a competing forum might get me banned by admins. Or not.

I happened across Frank's post because I never got a badge after donating last year. It wasn't important enough to me to remember to email a request for my badge. But the recent post prompted me to renew my donation (do I have a badge yet?!).

I get so much out of this community, especially finding new music to play. It also helped me in my piano search last year. Definitely worth my support.

I understand that many contributors dislike the proposed auto-renew aspect (but it would only take a few minutes to go in and cancel it), and that many are on tight budgets. So voluntary contributions would seem best, but that has, apparently, not generated enough response to support the forums adequately. Answer: donate, people, if you are able!

We do like in an age of micro payments, and bookkeeping has to be a fully automatic process if you are running a site with thousands of members.

Frankly whatever the entrance cost is it will be too much for many. Going further, even if the financial cost is zero and the process of registering is too fiddly the cost is too high for many.

Personally, I wouldn't dream of a $10 initial hurdle. If I wasn't willing to do $1 for a year I'd do $1 for a weeks questions and unlimited posts to your question's threads, if the forum software supports that sort of thing. Actually I wouldn't, if I couldn't make it pay on a voluntary basis or even run within what I was willing to afford I'd try to find someone else to host the forum but that's just me and I have no problem with Frank hoping to get a return from his time/investment, if that is indeed what he is aiming at.

Now that’s pure irony!. It reminds me of MuseScore, in which you have to pay to become a member if you want to upload your submissions, however, reviewing or downloading submissions is free. That never really made a lot of sense to me.

Lol a couple of people here wouldn't be happy about that!
Surely that would put an end to the endless rambling about the best learning methods, or telling the story of one's life every other post

In my earlier post I jumped the gun by assuming that going subscription-based was a 'given' whereas it was mentioned as a 'likelihood.' Apologies for that.
One of the major advantages of this forum, which I suspect makes it more expensive to run, is the lack of intrusive advertising. It's like a breath of fresh air compared with many other internet sites. Perhaps I'm being over-hasty in implying that I wouldn't pay! Surely it's worth paying for - a haven from the lunacy of the internet to discuss a favourite subject?
I suspect a 'trial period' could be arranged for newcomers, btw, or an 'advert-free experience' for paying members with free members enjoying all the ads (mind-you, ad-blockers can be quite effective, so not necessarily a good approach.) We'll see, I guess.....

Well, I'm retired on a fixed income so I guess I'm out. I can't argue with the decision, it costs money to run these things. Good luck all!

A big part of the cost may come from maintaining the availability of every post made on this forum since its inception. While it's a nice thing to have, is it really necessary to have instant access to historical posts? How often do you come to this forum to read a thread that was last updated in 2005 versus an active discussion that was last updated three minutes ago? Some kind of a rolling discussion where posts older than X months or years are automatically archived and removed from the active part of the forum or maybe even deleeted would likely result in a significant saving in the resources required to run this thing and still maintain the most popular part, i.e. the active discussions.

According to a post earlier in this thread, this forum has 93,000 members. How many of those are what you could call active, i.e. how many of these people come here to read what's new, and how many are people that last visited this site many years ago and have long forgotten that they ever signed up and have moved on to other interests or died. I suspect that the first number is a much smaller number than the second.

I suppose it largely comes down to the reason why this forum exists. Whether it's being done as a hobby or a labour of love, or if it's intended to be a profit-making enterprise.

This would be very boring for us though, because we would answer the newbie's question, give them suggestions, and then we would have to wait for a week to find out what they thought about it.


That is a much better idea!

A language forum recently closed down. The "owner" was frustrated with the drama. And the income did not cover his time at a reasonable rate. That is understandable. On the other hand, some "members" were slightly miffed by the amount of volunteer time they put into educational posts that have disappeared forever. And the loss of good reference materials.

Unfortunately, old websites and images disappear over time. Forums with substantive content are on a downward spiral. Like it or not, this is a consequence of concentrating global media power into just a few hands, mainly those of Zuckerberg, Bezos, and Google.

When does this become compulsory ?

I think the forum will die if it becomes subscription only.

Lady Bird, it's not a done-deal yet.

If any of you can afford it and don’t usually donate, you might think about a donation or subscription. The possibility of making this a subscription site should not be surprising; Frank has been asking for donations.

I have my donation on a recurring charge. I am very sympathetic to the issue of not having a lot of disposable income, and I value everyone’s contributions. That being said, I also understand that you can’t hohoststt host a good website for free. I am sure that if everyone who can contribute would do so, and t a level that makes sense for them, we could probably get this done without a lot of trouble.

The first number is probably just a fraction of the second. I used to be a moderator for a forum (on a totally unrelated subject matter) and the administration kept a very close watch on participation rates, member retention, etc as if we were a Fortune 500 company. The statistics were typically something like 10% of the membership made 90 to 95% of the posts; and there were upwards of 40% of the membership which had registered and made either no posts or just one post. There was also usually some large number (like 30%) which hadn't posted at all in the past year.

These numbers were considered normal in the forum world and are probably true here too.

This is true. The heyday of the forums are over; just as forums replaced email lists and bulletin boards in the early 2000s, Facebook and social media is replacing forums nowadays. Which is unfortunate, I think. Facebook's user interface is awful and its archiving abilities are probably even worse. I am on several of formerly-busy forums which have died (or nearly died), and every time someone wonders why, the answer is always the same: the traffic moved over to Facebook. And with it, goes a certain tangible sense of community that the forum once had.

Re Pau Gasol's comment about archiving: yes, Facebook is basically useless for finding older information. And it'a pain in the rear even to try to go back to something you saw earlier in the day! FB is just not geared to be a information-provider, which is what many of us want from PW: information.

Maybe charge for the recital features, and leave the forums free? The recitals here I like and are unique I think. I'd get a subscription for that alone. Not sure if I'd want to pay for a forum though.

When I did the ABF surveys we got around 100-200 responses, but usually around 100. The quarterly recitals have drifted down to around 50 performers and stayed there for years. Except for the 50th anniversary - we tried to contact everyone who had ever participated and managed to double our numbers, but then the numbers dropped right back down for the 51st.

So numbers are really pretty low here, I think. How many people post regularly? Surely less than 100, maybe less than 50.

On facebook, the users are the product, which is why I have no friends on facebook - I just use it to keep track of a sports club I belong to.

I will try to contact Frank to see if he has thought about what will happen to the recitals if he goes to a paid site.

Sam

I probably would not subscribe. I am trying to spend less time on the internet and the subscription would give me an excuse to head in that direction. I like the camaraderie of the group but get tired of the same questions asked over and over, frivolous topics, and people asking us to comment on their abilities and prospective pieces when we are not in a position to do that. Also, people who ask for advice and you never hear from them again. I hope that Frank is reading the responses to this thread and takes them into account when making his decision.

Why not? Think about how much utility it’s provided. I’ve spent countless hours. Even if it cost $100 / year, and I spend 100 hrs / yr, that’s $1 / hr. I suspect thought that it’s more like $350 hrs and $35, so it’s actually closer to $0.10 / hr of entertainment. That’s a bargain in my book. Not to mention what it must cost him to run the site.

Frank, the owner, posted the announcement of the (likely) change under a banner of Please Note! and gave his reasons. It's not just speculation on our part.

He does state he may try the voluntary route one more time. Folks, here's a chance to influence his decision! Make a donation/suscribe!

I think if there is a fee for people to be able to write or ask a question, the forum is dead. I doubt any occasional user would bother to pay something just to be able to ask one question. The only viable solution is for people really interested to subscribe and cover the cost of operations. Now what would be usefull is for the owner to tell us how much more subscribers he still needs and whether its far away or close enough.

Personally, I like this much better than Facebook. It is not (supposed) to be political. Even though this is a insecure website, is Frank mining our data to sell to advertisers? Charging a minimum of $3.00 a month is more than reasonable. Anyone that wants to post for advice can get it for $3.00 and quit. The rest of us would really miss it I bet. So why not pay a small fee. Those folks that pay $5 or $10 a month would still be subsidizing the people that can only pay the $3.00 a month. Just as we do with our taxes. I honestly never thought of PW as anything other than a business. Frank needs revenue and should be also be fairly compensated for the successful forum he has created. And don't say that he didn't make it successful, but the members did. Go ahead, start your own piano forum and see how far you get before you run out of money.

What about a fundraiser? I wouldn’t subscribe, but a one time donation I would do. But not if I donate and later it becomes subscriber based. I read a lot but don’t post much. I’m cool with older posts disappearing. We seem to repeat the same discussions over and over anyway lol

Agreed. Do an annual voluntary fundraiser - Wikipedia style. That would yield far better results than a subscription model which has a very poor longevity rate. Subscription will kill this forum within 24 months, IMO.

That has been my experience as well.

That's a really good idea.

Those interested in this issue can also check the lively discussion over here in this thread.

Add me to those suggesting an annual fundraiser (Wikipedia style) idea, which is also being discussed in the thread TS linked above.

I think that's a great idea and would keep PW going and accessible to new folks.

Maybe Frank could try it and see if it get enough to cover his expenses. Then, if that doesn't work, plan B could be full subscription model?

BTW, someone mentioned (in the thread TS linked above) that it costs about $7500 a year to run PW. I had no idea. That is a lot of money.

I think your estimate is way off. I think it's much less than 1% of the members. If we're talking about 90% of the posts then I think it's about 100 people, 200 at most. Actually, it would be relatively easy to figure this out because each person's post count is known and the total number of posts is known.

Excuse me, but I would not want to pay just to be able to post. It's irrational and he should seriously reconsider. Writingforums.com has a monthly fundraiser but posting there does not require payment. If he goes down that monthly fundraiser route, I think more people will pay and we will have the same if not a higher active user rate than with the state it is in right now. And with the monthly fundraiser, I wouldn't have to pay to post here. If he goes subscription only, I'm not subscribing because of the irrationality of it all. I would go to Talk Classical or Musescore.com instead of here if he goes the subscription only route.

IF this forum goes to subscription it will no doubt lose many of its posters. However... as far as forums go this one seems very busy. I seriously doubt the forum will die like some have prophesied. I would imagine it's most serious and interested contributors would continue. I don't contribute that much any more but I do really enjoy the recital and it is very nice to be able to post and join in on posts that interest me. As long as the cost does not get ridiculous I will pay the cost.

Why do you feel it is irrational? It must cost money to host the site, and certainly costs in time. Musescore has no serious discussion forum, and there is a cost to join if you want to post sheet music. Talk Classical - don't know - is it about playing piano?

An annual fundraiser seems like a good idea. Since the annual cost to run the site is about $7500 PW could set a target goal of $12,000-$15,000 because I imagine it would give a certain level of comfort to have a bit of surplus. I don’t know why, but I’m more likely to donate to an annual fundraiser than to commit to a subscription.

That's how Wikipedia works. They have a quarterly fundraiser, but to just raise what PW needs, an annual fundraiser probably would be enough.

I know that it must cost money to host the site. I'm just saying that subscription only is probably the worst route as far as getting the revenue to host the site. A monthly fundraiser would in my opinion be a better option than subscription only as far as both posting rate and earning the revenue needed for the site.

And you can upload up to 5 scores on Musescore with a free account. And you can always delete an existing score of yours if you need the room for another score but can't afford the Pro membership. And in my experience, at least in the popular groups there is a ton of discussion. Talk Classical is more about classical music in general but it does have a subforum for Keyboard Instruments where you can post about piano pieces and piano techniques.

Thinking about the numbers, to reach a goal of $15,000 would only take 15,000 of the 93,000 members to donate $1.00. That’s only a little over 15% of us. My guess is that we might not get 15,000 donations but I also assume that those donating would give more than a dollar. So if 3,000 people donate $5.00 or 1,000 people donate $15.00 we’d reach our goal. Looking at these numbers, it doesn’t seem like a very big hurdle.

Funny and true at the same time.

Really? You would invest the amount of time that Frank does to this site for less than $8000? I would not. If there are posters here that want an annual fundraiser, you can make your own fundraiser by clicking on the ‘donate’ button, ... and you can choose the time of the year that works best for you. Otherwise, don’t be surprised to see the mandatory subscription coming. Want to preempt that decision, donate.

Count me among those who believe that an annual subscription drive might very well be sufficient to provide adequate funding -- this sense of monthly rates and the compulsory rules of posting doesn't strike me as being a particularly effective approach to securing adequate additional funds. There are a lot of frequent users who I suspect would be glad to help out, now that they've been apprised of the shortfall.

No, I would not invest the amount of time that Frank does for less than $8000, probably not for a whole lot more than that amount either. I just quoted $7500 because some post earlier stated that’s what it costs to run the site. I have no problem with him raising enough to operate the site and fairly compensate himself for his time running it, I just don’t know what that number is. I don’t know that subscribing now in hopes of preventing a mandatory subscription is the best way to deal with the situation. If the cost was laid out and a fundraiser was run I think it would stand a good chance of fixing the problem. I also think that mandatory subscriptions could cause a lot of people to leave as well as discourage new members from joining it, then that too might fix the problem, by killing the site.

I just tried reddit piano. I'm not impressed. I prefer pianoworld forum.

I agree that a fundraiser is a much better option. There are users here from the countries where $30+ a year is a significant amount--it would be unfair to exclude them (and, as some pointed out, many people in "wealthier" countries can be on fixed income, have financial troubles, etc.). I'm going to donate now (have been thinking about it but never got to it). I'm not sure I'd subscribe if it becomes subscription-only--I'm already paying membership fees for a number of professional associations, and there has to be a limit. Plus I'm worried, like many here, that the quality and liveliness of the forum will drop significantly. And I use it mostly for the sense of a community and for online recitals, not for specific pieces of advice usually (I have an amazing and highly qualified teacher who can answer my questions). In general, I'm too busy to lead an active online life, just too much is going on with work, family, etc. But I love the forum and will be happy to support it.

PW has been such an important part of my life since 2004 that I will, and have in the past, gladly subscribe, even though my participation in recent years has slowed rather drastically compared to the first few years.

I'm not sure a fundraiser method would work. Even if the site only costs $8000 per year to run, Frank is obviously not trying to break even... PW has always been intended to be, I believe, a major component of his income/career. And from his perspective, automatic renewals are vastly preferable than nagging people yearly.

I would hate to see PW end. I don't think a Facebook group is a good alternative. I belong to several Facebook groups, and they are a NIGHTMARE to search, and having more than just a few threads active at a time becomes unwieldy.

Another unrelated forum I belong to, has a banner/bar on the first page, showing how much of their needed £180 a month to pay for the hosting etc they have got so far.

They have 95500 members

That seems to work, getting near the end of the month and only half way there, people seem to donate to reach the full amount.

But that is run by volunteers.

Personally I don’t think it’s feasible to make anything but pocket money from 99% of forums. They need to be run out of a passion for whatever the forum is for, by volunteers.

I think if you believe in 2019 you can make a decent income out of a forum, you’re kidding yourself.

True - I think I've been a member for 10 years - and have been here off and on - there have been times when caring for ageing parents I disappeared for over a year - and came back when things settled down. Or when I was listening to posts about a piano I'm researching for a friend.

My suspicion would be that, if it was a paid subscription, the vast majority would drop off - but maybe still "lurk".

Not sure how it would work for someone to drop off - and then in 3yrs time when they are researching buying a new piano - would they be able to just resume with the current user-name, or need to start off with a new identity? Or, like TomTom updates - have to pay the missed 3yrs updates to get the latest one?

+1 for fundraiser.

While pro pianists are historically financially strapped, adults who pick up piano as a hobby tend to be loaded. A fundraiser would go quickly.

"+1 for fundraiser."

I don't usually post just to say "me, too" - and I am a subscriber and will continue to be. I want to add my voice to those who strongly prefer the annual fundraiser (or spring and fall, or quarterly - whatever it takes).

If the forum moves to subscription only, I'm very concerned about discouraging first time posters. Perhaps there could be a trial period based on a small number of posts and/or first month free, something along those lines, so newbies see the value in what the Forums offer.

Mostly lurking lately. I especially appreciate and would miss listening to the ABF and themed recitals (although I haven't posted in them since the 50th recital gala), and binge-watching piano competitions with the knowledgeable commentators on Pianist Corner.

Yes, there are a great many members. But I looked at their activity some months ago.
At that time there were almost 86,000 members.
Of those ...
. . 43,000 have NEVER posted
. . .9,700 have posted only once
. . 16,000 have posted between 2 and 5 times
That's 69,000 inactive users.

Only 1,700 users have posted more than 200 times.
This is the group of people who "might" subscribe.

Tens of thousands of others would not.
And most of those would not even know the board had moved to a subscription model ... because they spend little or NO time here.

Brava, Elaine.I can understand that some few people here cannot afford $3 per month.
But for most people? You're sitting there on a computer that cost at least hundreds of dollars and will last perhaps five years.
A bronze subscription here will cost less than a third of what you spent on that computer.
Cough up the $3 and enjoy the party. I know I will.

I have to share your concern about new members. Who would pay to use a forum whose value is unknown to him?

I did that ten years ago with PianoStreet.com
The forums were free, but it required a subscription to download the sheet music. Something around $30 IIRC.
Had there been no offer of sheet music for the price of subscription ... I would not have chosen to subscribe.

After that first year I did not re-subscribe.
I tried to use the forum occasionally for free. But I abandoned that because it's a nearly dead forum.
Postings over a week's time are fewer than what goes on here at Piano World in 30 minutes.

So ... others can easily discover for free that Piano Street is not worthy.
But how will they discover that Piano World is?

If the subscription-only system is introduced, the number of posts per day will probably drop off rather sharply, owing to the smaller number of participants. And with that, the number of daily views, since there will be less reason to visit the site with less going on.

If that happens, the costs to run the site should drop off too. This should be factored in, when calculating the economics of the site.

I am not a Frequent poster, but if I look back on what has helped me on this platform:

1. Lots of enthusiastic pianists, who are learning to play and sharing their journey. Often this journey we are doing alone;
2. Purchase of my new piano;
3. The material shared and awareness raised;
4. Recitals have set my focus with real deadlines even if I don’t submit;
5. It’s an international forum, where differences are not important and playing the piano is;

I was laid off 18 months ago, and have been through a lot recently. I ask myself what could I give up once a month to pay for $3 subscription: I am sure I can.

I can see both sides of fund raising or subscription; I really like the idea of a barometer of funds needed, where there is visibility and accountability.

If I were in charge subscriptions ….

I would set it up with various membership layers depending upon HOW MANY posts you are allowed to make each day (or week, or month, or year).

I am not a fan of frequent posters when those posts are mostly just rambling about some obscure point or incessant arguing or just passing the time of day.

My method might limit that.

I might even include a method to keep track of the number of characters being posted as part of the membership fee.

My method would also allow the infrequent poster to pay a very small fee in order to make 2 or 3 posts each week.

As you can see …. I am in favor of coming here to contribute something useful and not just jabbering about anything just to be a part of the scene.

I hope it works out for the best ….

Not a bad idea.
I would even go one step further (or in another direction, depending on your viewpoint): Various membership types would influence what content you are allowed to post. Specifically: Advertising.

On the Pianist Corner, there is an old and now resurrected thread about how a composer was not allowed to link to his compositions, because it was "advertising". My opinion: Members who contribute a lot financially, like Platinum or Unobtainium level, should be allowed to advertise.
As the saying goes: Those who pay for the music decide what is being played.

What it will come down to is …..

Which members will pay to keep this forum going ?

You can probably predict them by examining the posts-per-day figure.

5 or more …. Probably will pay.

3 or 4 ….Maybe.

1 or 2 …. Slight chance.

Less than 1 …. Probably not.

Whatever the system, it should be very simple. If you look at imslp the subscription with a minimum entry fee gives you a simple but value add benefit if you are a frequent user. Same should apply here. People who donate or subscribe a minimum entry fee should have some specific rights. But the forum should be kept fully open to all for questions and answers.

Personally, I could live with a membership fee if you wish to be allowed more than x number of postings on any given day. That would allow the same people the availability of browsing and if an interesting topic jumped up they could post to it in a limited manner.

What would that number of postings be ?

I could live with 2. That gives me my initial post and then a followup if needed. That's enough for me.

And that would remain free.

You need more than that ? Become a paying member.

Simple.

Here's what's relevant to me at the minute. How many folks debating this are donating now? I've been a donor, at a silver or gold level, for years. I choose to have that badge displayed, not out of ego, but to remind others that, as Frank says, this forum is not *free*. I know there are those who donate but choose not to display the badge.

But - instead of debating how to make a subscription work, or a pledge drive, or whatever - why not just DONATE? We could solve the problem, I bet, if people would just donate right now, and regularly or irregularly do so every year.

There's a button at the bottom. It's easy, not mandatory, and it could make the whole discussion irrelevant.

Agree with Cathy!!!

Let’s go, folks!!

If we're to fill the bucket, it would be nice to know how big the bucket is.

+1

That is the best idea I have seen.

And it probably would be the best option for this forum.

I am fearful that a fee to post could destroy it.

I have only one problem with donating right away...PayPal. Lets say we have some history and prefer not to use it again.

This has been a very good thread, all in all. This post and those from Don (dmd) in particular, got me thinking that I really should donate, so I just did. I know nothing of "badges" and whether I will see one on my posts, but the important thing really is, as has been said, if everybody who is at least somewhat active, donates SOME amount, then the problem will be addressed.

As a side note, when you donate, you are given a choice as to whether it is a one time, or a monthly donation, your choice. So right now, regardless of what Frank ultimately decides on this issue, you can have a monthly donation if you choose to do so. Personally, I chose a on time donation, but it won't be my last.

Regards,

Tony

That is part of the reason I suggested a monthly fundraiser. It would increase donation rate and conserve or maybe even increase posting rate.

Caters
A monthly fundraiser would require a decision and action by Frank. Nothing would need to be decided or done by him if enough members would click on the donate button.

(hit post by mistake)

I always use PayPal when possible. However, you can send a check.

A check? Those have been obsolete here for several decades now...

PayPal is not required. Click on the ‘donate’ button and you will find an assortment of acceptable credit cards

This could indirectly be a good income boost to experienced teachers. Instead of giving away gratis the knowledge that students usually pay to get, they could use the time saved for a few more paid, income-generating lessons. A financial disincentive to post may well work out to their advantage.

(I like the fund raiser ideas.)

It is my feeling that when teachers give away knowledge that students usually pay for, they are really advertising their services.

They would probably continue to do that and they may even pay to do it.

It still goes through PayPal...

I disagree, and it's not "feeling".

- Almost all these teachers post under a pseudonym, and do their best to hide their identity. You don't do that when you're advertising.
- It is in the nature of being a teacher, to want to teach - to be bothered by lack of knowledge and want to do something about it - or just, to teach, help, guide. One just does. Some teachers may be there to interface with colleagues, but when a student question comes, they are willing to help.
- Simply by what they state

One teacher who has sadly passed away some years ago did state what his reason was for being on PW. He wanted, specifically, to guide novice young teachers coming in, and did so. He wasn't advertising anything, and had no reason to advertise.

In any case, these are the people that a policy that you must pay in order to post (help others) will likely make disappear.

Same here!

Done.

I just upgraded from a monthly Silver to an annual Gold.

Well worth it to me.

I gave a one-time (for now) donation yesterday. Hopefully this will help a bit.

I am curious as to how you know (not a "feeling") that if they "do their best to hide their identify".

If John Doe in Kansas City, signs himself as John Doe in Kansas City, maybe with a sig on the bottom, then he's trying to be found and contacted. If John Doe in Kansas City signs himself as PlanetEarthInhabitant or Sparrows, then he's not looking to be found.

Um - back on topic?

Good for all the donors. I do hope it helps, but it certainly can't hurt!

Has Frank stated what level of income he needs to keep the forum running? Not the $8000 or so annually to cover the server and bandwidth costs, but the net income necessary for his time as well.

Well, how do you know that PlanetEarthInhabitant or Sparrows is a teacher not looking to be found ?

How do you know he is a teacher ?

If someone is impressed by an anonymous teacher on the forum, they can always PM them. Whether they choose to engage with the potential student or not, nobody loses their anonymity on the forum.

Maybe there should be an extra charge for off topic posts.

I have been meaning to subscribe for some time... so this, and similar conversations, have promted me to ...TRY.. to do that. Unfortunately several unsuccessful attempts... tried to subscribe twice with credit card and both times while part way through inputting my address details, was diverted to a similar looking page in what appeared to be Arabic (or similar), the other 2 times I tried to pay with paypal, to find out my account was "limited" whatever that means, and my attempt to resolve this at the paypal website said something like that was not available at this time.
I don't post much, but I read the forums regularly (does that make me a "lurker" ?), and I value what I learn here, and just the opportunity to be " part" of piano related conversations, as an older adult beginner.
I guess I will try again another day 😯

Hmmm this is a news to me too. I did not post much lately and surprised to learn this. But I do understand that nothing is free. Probably it will take a lot to operate the site.

Do we know when the proposed change would occur?

Will PM still be available to non subscribers?

Frank’s post states it may start soon. He might try the voluntary route one more time first.
I can’t see how you would be able to use PM unless you were a subscriber; it is a form of posting that requires an account .

I'm sure you're right. No longer having access to the numbers, I deliberately used a very conservative estimate so as not to seem pessimistic. But I whole-heartedly agree with you; the number of active participants is pretty tiny.

Off topic posts should be rewarded based on humor, brevity, and pithiness!

We have a winner already!

Tony

This is a really good idea. For those who are professionals who contribute, they could get advertising space and write off the expense for their business.

The solution is already there on the page. It's Donate or Subscribe.

Teachers already get free advertising; there was s change in policy a few months ago
https://forum.pianoworld.com/ubbthre...free-ads-on-piano-world.html#Post2798763

At least on the PIano Forum some of the dealer professionals post a lot but their posts are basically advertisements. There are other professionals that selflessly contribute in a way that is not mostly just blowing their own horn. It's not possible to start trying to evaluate each post in terms of its real contribution vs. advertising so I think this proposal is not doable.

[quote=]If I were in charge subscriptions ….

I would set it up with various membership layers depending upon HOW MANY posts you are allowed to make each day (or week, or month, or year).

I am not a fan of frequent posters when those posts are mostly just rambling about some obscure point or incessant arguing or just passing the time of day.

My method might limit that.

As you can see …. I am in favor of coming here to contribute something useful and not just jabbering about anything just to be a part of the scene.
[/quote]
I see several things wrong with this approach:
1. One person's idea of what would be "rambling about some obscure point" can be another person's idea of what would be important discussion. What qualifies as an obscure point? Many pianists would probably consider much or even most of the PW to be discussion of obscure points.

2. What's wrong with posting that appears to be "just passing the time of day"? The forums aren't just meant for discussion of the most erudite and important ideas. Entertainment is IMO a valid goal.

3. What qualifies as "something useful" or "jabbering"?

4. People who post a lot may be contributing a lot in their posts or not making posts that many would call good contributions. Number of posts/day(not total posts because that depends on how long someone has been a member) is not an indication of how "valuable"(even it were possible to quantify that) someone's post are.

5. Is one post of 500 words less than ten posts of 50 words?

Just as is it now with the policy that professionals have that in their tag, which is mainly enforced by fellow posters (and im sure by mods when needed) I think the same could be done here.

In general I've only posted when I thought I had something useful to add (whether any of it actually was useful is for others to decide, I guess). At 650 posts in 13 years, I'm no social media butterfly and wouldn't be subscribing. Would be sorry to not be able to chime in from time to time, but I doubt I (and legions of others of my ilk) would be missed.

I loved your standalone piano studio

Sad truth - nobody would be missed. It's the nature of the forum. That said, there are plenty of people I like hearing from, and keeping it active is important. I hope it doesn't come to losingl members.

Hey, speak for yourself! I miss tons of people who no longer post, like prout, who went missing from PW in January. The nature of the forum is that people come and go. That doesn't mean they aren't quietly missed when gone.

I would cover that issue with a free membership allowing x (3+) number of posts on a given day.

Then, infrequent posters would still be able to participate lightly anyway.

I think you missed what my approach was …

My approach was not to decide how to define "rambling", or "obscure", or "passing the time of day".

But simply to charge on the basis of how many posts (or characters) you are allowed per day.

That, in itself, would serve to limit those hard to control postings …. unless you had an "unlimited" category, which I would not be in favor of.

In fact, I might put a hard cap on the number of characters which may be within a single posting, as well as the number postings allowed each day. I also am not a fan of long-winded postings which can be deadly to the flow of a thread.

Obviously, the details need to be worked out but I hope you get the gist of it.

However, as was noted earlier …. it would be best of none of this were necessary.

Just donate regularly and all the issues go away.

Thank you!
(Totally OT, but I might as well get in a few posts while it's still free!)
The studio is a joy and I'm very happy with how it turned out.
I'm retired and spend the majority of my days there.

When I asked how one would define rambling etc. my point was that there is no agreed upon definition. What one person thinks is clearly rambling, etc. might strike someone else as a great post. So your idea that one should somehow limit these kind of posts or make it more costly to make a lot of posts is based on a false premise.

That's wonderful to hear that it was not only a project that was satisfying to complete, but one with a high utility between your piano and ham radio, and other stuff. Pretty sure my wife wouldn't allow me a "spousecave" like that where I could hide away for many hours every day!

Well, what was the false premise ?

My premise was ….. If you charge more for those wishing to type more characters per day …. that will tend to reduce long, boring posts …. such as this one with continuing arguing. LOL ….

If I was paying more to do this …. I would tend to just stop and I might not even have a choice because I would have reached my daily limit of characters.

So … it would work.

I would be totally in favor of that.

I became a subscriber a while back before the announcement.

I am 99% certain that if you make posting subscription only the forum will be dead in a very short time.

I have seen posts by teachers and others with experience and knowledge, giving sufficient information with enough clarity for it to be understood, and taking the time to answer subsequent questions. Or how about a few years ago when the teaching thread was launched in the ABF - I think it was on musical form - headed by Richard (ZRTF) with lots of participants who were out to learn. Basically it was a course. Should that have been penalized because it was too big? I agree that the premise is wrong, for a number of reasons.

There are several posters that I miss too.
I even miss some of them by name:
Marty, John vdB , apple

Well, these three you named passed away, but I hope prout is still with the living, only moved on to playing more piano and having given up on spending time on this forum.

I notice that no other message board has tried the subscription model and succeeded.

Don’t know about success, but Piano Street has been all ‘gold’ subscription for new members for over a year at $12.99 per month. Previous members were not required to update. They hope to reinstate the free ‘silver’ sometime this year.

I subscribed on a yearly basis—not sure if my badge is being shown on my profile pic. I concur with the donation model above..I definitely am a bit turned off by the subscription model but I am fortunate I have the finances to blow on this piano hobby (weekly private lessons with more than 1 teacher, attendance fees at piano meetups, buying good Henle editions for many composers pieces, paying 2x a year for piano tuning and maintenance for my Steinway, etc). It does add up.

I'm a member of PianoStreet to access the scores there, but I didn't realize payment was necessary for the forums too. PianoStreet's forums have been ailing for a long time though, so they aren't a good example of forum health.

Didn't used to be - I've been a silver member for quite a while and didn't realize they'd quit offering that, but the free silver was all you needed to use the forum, and some limited access to other features. I was a gold member for a while, but just for the scores and other premium features - they offer a whole lot for gold members, and I'd be real surprised to hear anybody was a gold member just for the forum.

You know, we have heard from everybody in this thread except the man himself - Mr. PW...

Yes this one got everyone’s attention rather quickly!

There was a discussion over there a couple of weeks ago, where someone wondered why discussions had dwindled down to just about nothing. That's when we found out about that experiment.

Not sure if "everybody" or everyone has replied to this thread yet unless you mean the dozen or two currently active posters which is why the finances of this website are in question to begin with!

While it is nice that the currently active members are willing to support this site financially, there may not be enough volume of supporters to make the numbers work. If this is the case, the site may not be able to continue on unless some heavy hitting supporters start coming through pledging some real money......which brings me to ask the question "why aren't more major piano manufacturers contributing to support this site?" It's in their best interest that this site remains functional and flourishes to ultimately help promote the products that they sell!

Track down all the major piano manufacturers and convince them why they should advertise here on PW and charge an amount that will keep the doors open and the lights on. They pay everywhere else they advertise, so why not have them pay to advertise here on a forum that contains a large number of their target market?

On the flip side, while I have no problem supporting a venue in which I participate, I also realize that "I" am the product here, [so are you], and technically should be getting 'paid' for providing this forum with content that others make money on instead of having to 'pay' to provide content which others make money on. [something to think about!].

Manufacturer support was discussed in the parallel thread to this one on this same topic.

Tyrone
Not sure what you are referencing in the link but I don’t remember anyone with any information discussing advertising; just the suggestion ‘get more’. I would think Frank has already pursued this. Did I miss something? Is there someone with a marketing background who has provided specific information or volunteered to help put together a package?

I

Maybe do it so one thread can be submitted a week. For example, a beginner comes along, asks a question, the replies ask for further info etc, the poster should be allowed to respond properly without fear his/her character etc limit is reached.

Otherwise if a new poster can only ask a question and not fully respond to answers, I suspect it would put them off.

I just joined Piano World today. There are lots of good ideas in this thread.

So, here's a bad idea, or maybe a creative, innovative, or non-serious copycat idea. Please read on and you decide. I promise, it gets really serious and feasible near the end (so hold on).

I'm not a BitCoin person, but could something like that help to save these kinds of home grown forums? I'm thinking about something like this. The forum owner gives you some Piano tokens in exchange for a one-time $25 donation. You can then spend those tokens for original sheet music or online lessons or used music books from other members on Piano World, or on other websites. From there it might grow to be something bigger. Basically, we would be creating something of value in exchange for a donation to Piano World.

While a BitCoin or Blockchain-type of implementation is technically complex, here's a real world simple alternative. Imagine this, a member has 50 or 100 old method and sheet music books gathering dust. He or she posts those books, and says promise to make a donation per book to Piano World, and I'll send you the books for free. When you get the books, make the donation directly to Piano World, and please also send me the actual postage by PayPal.

Can we hold an old fashioned BAKE SALE for Piano World.

Anybody in?

Ron, You started to lose me at the mention of Bitcoin since I still don’t really understand what it is. Your ideas may be creative but I think are too complicated. If the subscription model is not simple, this forum will disappear.

Yes, I agree, my post yesterday is too complicated (just my theoretical brainstorming without constraints). I actually tried to delete the post earlier, but that wasn't an option.

I prefer the Wikipedia type appeals, where people can chip in small amounts at a time. Apparently, there is already a donation button. I just joined Piano World yesterday, so I need to go looking for it.

The location of the DONATE button is a problem, also.

If you want donations don't put the DONATE button in a very inconspicuous location.

Put it on the frontpage with a HUGE icon and keep reminding non-donators that their donations help keep the forum operating.

I would also encourage "automatic" donations similar to public television donation options.

In other words, start actively seeking donations and see what happens.

It would also be helpful to accept credit cards. I don't have a PayPal account and don't want one.

Just seeing these news after having recently signed up on this forum. I think it is unfortunate as I can see it making the forum less and less active, which will both discourage new members from signing up, as well as make current users leave. Still, I understand that the site needs funding to stay up.

I'm a genius. I found the perfect solution.

Frank should make the donation voluntary. Everyone can come in the forum and participate, if they feel Pianoworld is worth something, they will make a donation.

Amazing but this is the formula Frank has used for 20 years, but it is no longer working. If enough chipped in, we wouldn’t be having this conversation

Did I mention that if you want donations you need to ask for them ?

Did I mention Frank has posted ‘this forum is not free’ visibly on every forum?

Did I mention Frank has posted ‘this forum is not free’ visibly on every forum?
[/quote]

If it is "visibly" posted on every forum, it's not showing up on my computer (browsing with Google Chrome). The statement does ring a bell, but I am not seeing it now on any of the Forums.

Moreover, if you go to the "Piano World Home Page," there is a welcoming banner that says: "Join Our Piano Forums - Free!" That will need to be edited, I think.

Regards,

If it is "visibly" posted on every forum, it's not showing up on my computer (browsing with Google Chrome). The statement does ring a bell, but I am not seeing it now on any of the Forums.

Moreover, if you go to the "Piano World Home Page," there is a welcoming banner that says: "Join Our Piano Forums - Free!" That will need to be edited, I think.

Regards, [/quote]



I use Firefox and do NOT see them anywhere either. I too only see the "Join Our Piano forums-Free!"

I use Firefox and do NOT see them anywhere either. I too only see the "Join Our Piano forums-Free!"[/quote]
Same here, I didn't even realize that was a thing! Now I feel I should go donate, but I'll wait to see how things are going to change since it appears it will happen fairly quickly now. I'd hate to see this forum die!

It says free at the top of this page too.



And then at the very bottom of this page, it says,



Perhaps put the donation request at the top too, or in a more visible location.

I use Firefox and do NOT see them anywhere either. I too only see the "Join Our Piano forums-Free!"[/quote].

It was on every forum for a long time..,, now removed and replaced with the new message from Frank about the possible membership change. Having the sticky thread did not seem to increase donations

Frank has not posted a final decision or more details so the home page does not need to change. They are still ‘free’.

So...everyone who can, and frequents the forums and who feels you get a lot out of it.. go ahead and donate now!!

Subscription Link

Much as I hate to sound a pessimistic note, I'm thinking that we need a contingency plan. If these pages suddenly go dead, what should we do?

Our dilemma will be that with few exceptions, we don't even know how to contact each other if the forums are not here.

I personally was in the midst of a very productive discussion on the All About Jazz forums, when suddenly and without warning, the forums vanished. I really wanted to get back in touch with a person who was giving me a lot of help, but his forum name was generic. All I knew about him was that he was one heck of a good jazz pianist on the west coast. I had absolutely no way to identify him, much less contact him. I never even had a chance to properly thank him, which left me feeling bad.

So I think we ought to have a plan.

How about this: We all join the Reddit piano group, with the same forum name we have here, but add the letters PW to it, or something like that.

I know, I know, I know, Reddit is not Piano World. But it's better than nothing.

Ed (RiddlerPW)

I don't have Paypal and I haven't used checks the last 20 years or so. I don't even know if I have any. Why can't we use debit cards?

So, I'm way behind the times. Someone explain reddit to me, please. And if I join, how do I find the piano group? Yeah, there's lots of people here I'd like to keep up with. My bro Ed, for one

Actually, just before I joined Frank closed a forum called The Coffee Room where you could talk about anything at all. It apparently got out of hand over politics (insert roll-eyes icon here). So many of those folks did in fact find another platform and started a new forum, which then also split, at least partly over politics. So it can be done. . .

You don't personally have to have a paypal account - click on the use a cc under donations. Paypal will process the payment, but it uses a PW account.

That doesn't help the folks who don't like paypal, but it's an option.

As to using a debit card - I don't know how that works. I've worked for non-profits that have merchant accounts in order to take credit cards, and I've worked for one that uses a company called Stripe that processes cc's thru the non-profit's web site. Maybe something like that is an option.

I vote for putting the Donation button at the top of the page instead of the bottom.

Did not work like that for me, it required me to either log in or create an account AND give my phone number which is where I quit the process.

I understand that it costs money to arrange for paying directly with credit card, so this is probably the best option for Frank.

Credit and debit cards both cost money to accept as a payment method. Debit cards are usually a flat fee per transaction and credit cards are a flat fee plus a percentage of the transaction amount.

I don't accept any cards at my theatre and that's one of the reasons why.

Y
It’s been created.
https://www.reddit.com/r/PianoAdultBeginners
I’m not a huge fan of Reddit’s format, and I am a subscriber here, but at least it’s there for backup.

Regarding reddit, my username was already taken and I had already chosen ShiroKuro88

My name on reddit is the same as here.

K I joined the Reddit but hopefully we don’t have to permanently split up.

As Q said in his last James Bond movie: "No! Don't touch that ... that's my lunch!". Hang on, wait a second, I meant the other thing: "Always have a backup plan!"

I like Reddit since it's a centralized place for all my interests, although I don't post frequently to it. You can find me there as GatsbyGlen.

I just joined Reddit, too, under the same name as here. But I hope we don't lose this forum.

We won't - I have confidence it will survive and thrive.

Has anyone heard from or spoken with Frank? I wish he would weigh in.

I've been thinking the same thing. We've been talking and talking without any updates from the key figure. So my plan is to hold tight and wait for a bit. Keeping fingers crossed that this can resolve in a way that keeps everyone feeling satisfied!

Ok, I'm over there, too. But Aug 1 I'll update my donation here.

P.S. - How do you log out over there?

Hm. I clicked on Donate at the bottom of the screen here, then Donate after the boilerplate on the next screen, and then there was an option to either use Paypal or a credit or debit card. Don't know why that wasn't available to you - different country?

I just made a donation and was able to use a credit card. I did have to search to find the donate button . I agree it would be easier to find if it were at the top.

It's going to be such a shame if this site goes full subscription. As much as I love this and lurk here almost everyday my hubby is deathly allergic to subscriptions. I had to get Medici.tv as a Christmas gift and will probably end it this Christmas if no one offers it. Even if its only 2-3 bucks a month anymore it is really overwhelming how many requests you get anymore from two dozen or more websites/podcasts/youtube channels that all say the same. The next thing you know you get your paypal bill and realize you've commited yourself to $200/month and no warm coffee or stained teeth to show for it. It's too bad that the site couldn't be reinvented/reinvigorated by adopting a different modality, say more like Ravelry. Ravelry made national news a few years back as the most successful social platform on the internet and it's totally free. Started as a way for knitters to get together and share and now incorporates a whole world of fiber arts and supports a thriving micro economy. No one at its inception thought it could become as self sustaining as it has become with 8 million members when all it is is a gathering place for people who like yarn. If they can do that, why can't we? You should all go sign up and look at it. Now we wouldn't be nearly so big or offer as much at first, but neither did they. But one idea built on another again and again. Some things worked, some things failed. But maybe something similar could work for us. If things are getting that difficult, it's something to think about.

Just a thought.

Walking blind
This forum has been successful with this model for over 20 years, but is not pulling in enough advertising revenue. Don’t want to subscribe? Make a small donation. Look at the store for purchases. These are the things all of us can do to keep the forum free to membership.

Hi Cathy, you are quite right, I found the button there! I had clicked on my username, scrolled down to subscriptions, clicked on Bronze, and found only check and Paypal.
Thank you!

So Frank B, if you read this, please add the credit and debit cards possibility to the subscriptions!

It would be nice to hear back at some point about the situation, if more and how much donation is needed to keep the present model for at least the next year or so. If I have to use that bl**** PayPal, I would rather do it just once with a proper amount.

Well, Mr. Piano World seems to be missing on this debate. He has not responded to my text inquiring about the recitals.

Sam

I see. Yes, it would nice if all the options were available for every button, and the buttons were easier to find. I hadn't even thought of going via my username This is definitely a marketing glitch, eh?

He’s probably been too busy speccing out his new Porsche, with all the recent donations.

He was on site an hour ago . . . does seem like he would weigh in on the subject.

I love Ravelry! But I can understand that when things get bigger than you can personally handle then its time for change. Money helps but doesnt' take away the stresses of keeping up with growth. Retirement is meant to be relaxing!
I signed up on Reddit but haven't explored how to use it. Like so many of you I love this site and lurk around very often. I have made donations from time to time but not put up stickers, that doesn't matter to me. I would subscribe if necessary but if leadership is tired then that won't make a lot of difference.

Frank has not said nor implied that he is tired of managing the site, only that it is not generating enough income. Really, we should take his statement at face value,

Awesome, more subscription-only forums means less forum time and more piano practice time.