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Posted By: Nahum How a blind pianist "sees" the keyboard? - 08/19/20 06:43 AM
https://www.reddit.com/r/piano/comments/ibb270/how_a_blind_pianist_sees_the_piano_i_got_my_dad/?%24deep_link=true&correlation_id=4c0a4aa6-3dde-448a-a299-1360801aa067&ref=email_digest&ref_campaign=email_digest&ref_source=email&utm_content=post_title&utm_medium=digest&utm_name=top_posts&utm_source=email&utm_term=day&%243p=e_as&%24original_url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.reddit.com%2Fr%2Fpiano%2Fcomments%2Fibb270%2Fhow_a_blind_pianist_sees_the_piano_i_got_my_dad%2F%3F%24deep_link%3Dtrue%26correlation_id%3D4c0a4aa6-3dde-448a-a299-1360801aa067%26ref%3Demail_digest%26ref_campaign%3Demail_digest%26ref_source%3Demail%26utm_content%3Dpost_title%26utm_medium%3Ddigest%26utm_name%3Dtop_posts%26utm_source%3Demail%26utm_term%3Dday&_branch_match_id=766707415220037550
Posted By: TimR Re: How a blind pianist "sees" the keyboard? - 08/19/20 12:38 PM
Fascinating!

Again you bring us something unique, Nahum. Thanks.

I cold only watch half, the network is slow here. But he finds key geography by proprioception, and we sighted players go through a step of visual location before learning that (and some never do). I wonder if they are parallel or sequential steps - it might even be that when actually playing, the visual adds a mental processing step that adds overhead.
Posted By: TimR Re: How a blind pianist "sees" the keyboard? - 08/19/20 01:12 PM
I have a reason for asking this, something that I noticed this morning.

The focus of this topic is basically how to you get a finger to X key location in space, without using visual cues. What path do you move in 3D space to play F above middle C, for example, either given knowledge of where your hand is now, or not. (might be two separate cases, not sure)

But just like calculus has both derivatives and integrals (I was watching 3Blue1Brown last night, recommended) there is the inverse. When you land on a key and it sounds, how do you know what note you just played?
Fascinating video. Thank you for posting it. Just thought I'd add an easier link, because first I was perplexed as to how to get there - in case anyone else is. link to it
Posted By: Nahum Re: How a blind pianist "sees" the keyboard? - 08/19/20 02:18 PM
Originally Posted by keystring
Fascinating video. Thank you for posting it. Just thought I'd add an easier link, because first I was perplexed as to how to get there - in case anyone else is.
Thanks ,keystring, I don't know how this is done.
Posted By: Nahum Re: How a blind pianist "sees" the keyboard? - 08/19/20 06:39 PM
We all can learn from such pianists: they are freed from the fear of playing the wrong notes ...
Oddly enough, when I played piano as a child self-taught, I did not look at the piano. I heard the sounds in relative pitch, and the sounds sort of shone out from their location, like warm spots. When returning to piano decades later, I had poor technique of course, and was not aware of hand shape or such things. It was disorienting at first to look at the keys and see my hands. I also did not have a visual picture of black and white key patterns. Essentially I probably played like a blind person.

When I watched the video, the young man talked about how hard it was for him to do some leaps especially. I think he had to contend with wrong notes. Rather than fear of wrong notes, maybe it's a matter of aiming for how to get the right notes.

Quote
Thanks ,keystring, I don't know how this is done.

Click on "Use Full Editor". You will see a button that looks like a globe with two physical links, like a metal chain. Click on that. Paste your URL there and give it a name. I happen to have something open on washing machines:the washing machine thing I pasted the URL into that. Then it asked me to give a name so I wrote "the washing machine thing". Tell us if this works. smile
Originally Posted by TimR
I cold only watch half, the network is slow here. But he finds key geography by proprioception, and we sighted players go through a step of visual location before learning that (and some never do). I wonder if they are parallel or sequential steps - it might even be that when actually playing, the visual adds a mental processing step that adds overhead.
A blind pianist uses proprioception because he has to, not because it's superior to using ones eyes. All good pianists look at the keyboard when playing with the score to some extent, and many look most of the time when playing without the score.
Posted By: Nahum Re: How a blind pianist "sees" the keyboard? - 08/24/20 06:57 AM
Originally Posted by keystring
When I watched the video, the young man talked about how hard it was for him to do some leaps especially. I think he had to contend with wrong notes. Rather than fear of wrong notes, maybe it's a matter of aiming for how to get the right notes.
.
No, the formula is just different: Do not be afraid of wrong notes, be stubborn - and you will get the right notes! In my youth, I played almost entire jazz concerts with my eyes closed; and today I am sitting over Chopin's Etude in C major, not playing fast; and poco a poco moving forward. Anyone can if desired; the only question is its size.


Originally Posted by TimR
All good pianists look at the keyboard when playing with the score to some extent, and many look most of the time when playing without the score.
\
Originally Posted by pianoloverus
e]A blind pianist uses proprioception because he has to, not because it's superior to using ones eyes. All good pianists look at the keyboard when playing with the score to some extent, and many look most of the time when playing without the score.
You do not consider the factor of side view, which we are usually not aware of; and only when it decreases with age , creating problems of painful orientation in space , do we begin to understand its importance.
Posted By: Nahum Re: How a blind pianist "sees" the keyboard? - 08/24/20 12:49 PM
Originally Posted by keystring
Click on "Use Full Editor". You will see a button that looks like a globe with two physical links, like a metal chain. Click on that. Paste your URL there and give it a name.


Thanks!
Originally Posted by Nahum
Originally Posted by keystring
When I watched the video, the young man talked about how hard it was for him to do some leaps especially. I think he had to contend with wrong notes. Rather than fear of wrong notes, maybe it's a matter of aiming for how to get the right notes.
.
No, the formula is just different: Do not be afraid of wrong notes, be stubborn - and you will get the right notes! In my youth, I played almost entire jazz concerts with my eyes closed; and today I am sitting over Chopin's Etude in C major, not playing fast; and poco a poco moving forward. Anyone can if desired; the only question is its size.


Originally Posted by TimR
All good pianists look at the keyboard when playing with the score to some extent, and many look most of the time when playing without the score.
\
Originally Posted by pianoloverus
e]A blind pianist uses proprioception because he has to, not because it's superior to using ones eyes. All good pianists look at the keyboard when playing with the score to some extent, and many look most of the time when playing without the score.
You do not consider the factor of side view, which we are usually not aware of; and only when it decreases with age , creating problems of painful orientation in space , do we begin to understand its importance.
What is side view?
Originally Posted by pianoloverus
What is side view?
Peripheral vision?
Originally Posted by Nahum


You're welcome
Posted By: Nahum Re: How a blind pianist "sees" the keyboard? - 08/25/20 04:05 AM
Originally Posted by bennevis
Peripheral vision?


Originally Posted by pianoloverus
What is side view?
I have never studied English, so trying to get me to speak correctly is only welcome: I have great reverence for this language. However, in this case, I am completely lost in relation to the meaning of each of the words, and their combination.
https://wikidiff.com/vision/view
Well I was pretty sure when you said “side view” that you meant peripheral vision, but the phrase “side view” could be taken to mean “looking sideways” which is not what peripheral vision is. Peripheral vision is what you can see at the side while you’re looking straight ahead.
Posted By: Nahum Re: How a blind pianist "sees" the keyboard? - 08/25/20 04:59 AM
Originally Posted by currawong
Well I was pretty sure when you said “side view” that you meant peripheral vision, but the phrase “side view” could be taken to mean “looking sideways” which is not what peripheral vision is. Peripheral vision is what you can see at the side while you’re looking straight ahead.
From the beginning I wanted to use the familiar word "peripheral", but changed to a simpler one.

That is, the question here is about a purely statistical use of a combination of words, which I cannot know.
Oh
Oh
This is certainly not as deep a topic as "How a Deaf Hears Music". Well, all the same. We face many unexplained miracles in life. One of these stories is the life of little Ray Charles who, from childhood, realized that life is not sweet, the historian can be read on wowessays. Not only is he in deep childhood he lost his parents, moreover, he began to go blind. But this did not prevent him from captivating the audience and living his performances not with his eyes, but with his heart. He explained this very simply, when he lost sight, other senses, such as tactile ones, began to work better.
Originally Posted by Nahum
Originally Posted by pianoloverus
A blind pianist uses proprioception because he has to, not because it's superior to using ones eyes. All good pianists look at the keyboard when playing with the score to some extent, and many look most of the time when playing without the score.
You do not consider the factor of side view, which we are usually not aware of; and only when it decreases with age , creating problems of painful orientation in space, do we begin to understand its importance.
One's vision would have be pretty terrible not to be able to see the keyboard reasonably clearly whether directly or peripherally. I don't think many reach this state.
Posted By: TimR Re: How a blind pianist "sees" the keyboard? - 08/27/20 01:51 PM
Originally Posted by pianoloverus
Originally Posted by Nahum
Originally Posted by pianoloverus
A blind pianist uses proprioception because he has to, not because it's superior to using ones eyes. All good pianists look at the keyboard when playing with the score to some extent, and many look most of the time when playing without the score.
You do not consider the factor of side view, which we are usually not aware of; and only when it decreases with age , creating problems of painful orientation in space, do we begin to understand its importance.
One's vision would have be pretty terrible not to be able to see the keyboard reasonably clearly whether directly or peripherally. I don't think many reach this state.

I guess you don't wear bifocals.
Posted By: Nahum Re: How a blind pianist "sees" the keyboard? - 08/27/20 02:23 PM
Originally Posted by pianoloverus
One's vision would have be pretty terrible not to be able to see the keyboard reasonably clearly whether directly or peripherally. I don't think many reach this state.
Apparently, you do not really understand what I am talking about.
Originally Posted by pianoloverus
Originally Posted by Nahum
Originally Posted by pianoloverus
A blind pianist uses proprioception because he has to, not because it's superior to using ones eyes. All good pianists look at the keyboard when playing with the score to some extent, and many look most of the time when playing without the score.
You do not consider the factor of side view, which we are usually not aware of; and only when it decreases with age , creating problems of painful orientation in space, do we begin to understand its importance.
One's vision would have be pretty terrible not to be able to see the keyboard reasonably clearly whether directly or peripherally. I don't think many reach this state.

What is your basis for this assumption?
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