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Posted By: chopin_r_us 64 53 Fingering - 09/03/21 06:33 PM
Out of interest how many of you would use this LH fingering for this common cadential pattern?
[Linked Image]
Mozart K330, 3rd mov.
Posted By: Jun-Dai Re: 64 53 Fingering - 09/03/21 06:38 PM
Wow, it's hard to imagine a circumstance where I would have 5 and 4 in my left hand span a fourth. And coming from the previous chord where the third finger is on the A, this looks like some sort of special torture technique. You can count me out.

runs to the piano and tries it

Ok, it's not actually that bad, but it's definitely not comfortable. It does allow you to play the C-E to D-F smoothly, but I would definitely do 5-3-1 to 5-2-1 to get most of that smoothness without doing something so unnatural. But… maybe if I had a much bigger hand and spanning a fourth with the 5 and 4 was fairly comfortable for me?
Posted By: chopin_r_us Re: 64 53 Fingering - 09/03/21 07:04 PM
That's what I thought. It can be unhealthily done.
Posted By: bennevis Re: 64 53 Fingering - 09/03/21 07:15 PM
As my paws are the size of a koala bear's rather than a polar bear's (which I saw for the first time in Scotland two weeks ago - so huge that if it had swallowed me whole, I wouldn't have made a dent in its belly), I'd never have contemplated using 2-4-5.

And looking at my ancient score (from my teenage years, when I learnt it by myself), I can see that I wrote down 1-3-5.

But with advanced age, I must have become more flexible (or more tolerant of discomfort, which amounts to the same thing whistle) because I've just found that 2-4-5 is actually playable, even at speed, such that if I was re-learning it now, I might actually use it......
Posted By: chopin_r_us Re: 64 53 Fingering - 09/03/21 07:20 PM
What if you held your hand like this?

[Linked Image]
[Linked Image]

And who wants to guess what Mozart did?
Posted By: bennevis Re: 64 53 Fingering - 09/03/21 07:23 PM
Originally Posted by chopin_r_us
What if you held your hand like this?

[Linked Image]
[Linked Image]
Nope, that's too much awkward twisting.

When I play it with 2-4-5, my hand is comfortably flat.

Does the pinky need to play so deep into the key like that? If you play on near the tip, you might have a better position.

Quote
And who wants to guess what Mozart did?
Well, he used a Walter fortepiano, which has narrower keys, so anything is possible.......
Posted By: chopin_r_us Re: 64 53 Fingering - 09/03/21 07:31 PM
Originally Posted by bennevis
Nope, that's too much awkward twisting.
Now see, that is weird.That is the natural position of the hand, not pronated (i.e. using the pronator musculature) as in your 'comfortably flat'.
Posted By: bennevis Re: 64 53 Fingering - 09/03/21 07:36 PM
Originally Posted by chopin_r_us
Originally Posted by bennevis
Nope, that's too much awkward twisting.
Now see, that is weird.That is the natural position of the hand, not pronated (i.e. using the pronator musculature) as in your 'comfortably flat'.
The "natural position" of the forearm when standing/walking is semi-pronated, with palms facing inwards. (The "anatomical position" as in Gray's Anatomy, is supinated, with palms facing forwards - but nobody walks like that, not even catwalk models.)

When playing the piano, the "natural" position is almost (but not quite) parallel to the keyboard.

So, what did Wolfie use?
Posted By: chopin_r_us Re: 64 53 Fingering - 09/03/21 07:45 PM
Not sure I know what 'semi-pronated' is. The playing you've described is pronated. I'm referring to a position on the keyboard with neither pronation or supination muscles active.
Posted By: bennevis Re: 64 53 Fingering - 09/03/21 07:51 PM
Originally Posted by chopin_r_us
Not sure I know what 'semi-pronated' is. The playing you've described is pronated. I'm referring to a position on the keyboard with neither pronation or supination muscles active.
That would be a karate chop position. Same as when your arms are relaxed by your sides when standing.

If you don't believe me, sit on your comfy sofa, and lift both hands up to 90 deg at the elbows.
You can't play a piano (not even an unweighted keyboard) with hands in that position.

But you might be able to play a bandoneon (if Piazzolla is your thing) or bagpipes.......
Posted By: chopin_r_us Re: 64 53 Fingering - 09/03/21 07:56 PM
No, I have to place my hands in karate chop position. The weight of the thumb side of the hand naturally pulls it over. On the topic of Mozart, as far as I know he had no piano lessons only what his father could glean from CPE Bach's book.
Posted By: bennevis Re: 64 53 Fingering - 09/03/21 08:02 PM
Originally Posted by chopin_r_us
No, I have to place my hands in karate chop position. .
You are thinking "Playing piano". If someone plops your baby onto your lap and you raise your hands to pick him up, what positions are your hands in?

The relaxed position, when both supinators and pronators are relaxed, is semi-pronated. Stand up, and swing your arms back & forth with forearms relaxed, wildly enough so that your forearms swing right up to 90 deg at the elbows. Do they suddenly pronate at the top of the swing?
Posted By: chopin_r_us Re: 64 53 Fingering - 09/03/21 08:08 PM
I think you're saying that the knuckles are naturally horizontal when at the piano. This is not correct.
Posted By: bennevis Re: 64 53 Fingering - 09/03/21 08:11 PM
Originally Posted by chopin_r_us
I think you're saying that the knuckles are naturally horizontal when at the piano. This is not correct.
Playing the piano is totally unnatural.

And I didn't say that the knuckles are horizontal when playing. The 5th knuckle is "naturally" lower because of the weight of the pinky wink .
Posted By: chopin_r_us Re: 64 53 Fingering - 09/03/21 08:28 PM
I think you'll find each knuckle is lower than its neighbour.
Posted By: pianoloverus Re: 64 53 Fingering - 09/03/21 08:33 PM
Originally Posted by chopin_r_us
What if you held your hand like this?
[Linked Image]
[Linked Image]
I think most would find that the most awkward fingering that had ever used. Even the "reason" for using it(I assume it's to get perfect legato on the thirds) seems silly. The second hand position would also extremely awkward for most.
Posted By: bennevis Re: 64 53 Fingering - 09/03/21 08:38 PM
Originally Posted by chopin_r_us
I think you'll find each knuckle is lower than its neighbour.
In that case, no knuckle is lower than any other...... grin

Actually, thinking of how those pre-Baroquists play their keyboards (sans thumbs), with thumbs out of the way (probably strapped to their palms with Elastoplast), their knuckles are more horizontal. That's probably why my teacher's teacher's teacher's teacher's teacher (ad nauseam) used to put coins on top of their pupils' hands when they play Bull or Frescobaldi.

This pianist obviously didn't listen to his teacher's teacher's teacher's.....
Posted By: chopin_r_us Re: 64 53 Fingering - 09/04/21 07:18 AM
[Linked Image]
Posted By: florhof Re: 64 53 Fingering - 09/04/21 08:31 AM
I solemnly swear: No performing pianist in the world will play these notes with this fingering - at least not on stage.
Posted By: Sidokar Re: 64 53 Fingering - 09/04/21 08:37 AM
Any particular reason why you want to use that fingering ? If it works for you at tempo and in a reliable way, does it matter what others may think of it ?
Posted By: David-G Re: 64 53 Fingering - 09/04/21 08:44 AM
Originally Posted by bennevis
As my paws are the size of a koala bear's rather than a polar bear's (which I saw for the first time in Scotland two weeks ago - so huge that if it had swallowed me whole, I wouldn't have made a dent in its belly), ...

In a zoo, I hope? Or has climate change pushed the polar bear's range so far south? I'd be a bit worried if there are wild polar bears in Scotland now!
Posted By: chopin_r_us Re: 64 53 Fingering - 09/04/21 08:53 AM
Originally Posted by Sidokar
Any particular reason why you want to use that fingering ? If it works for you at tempo and in a reliable way, does it matter what others may think of it ?
I'm not so sure the penny-on-the-back-of-the-hand hold (and it is a hold) is that old. My guess is it's a mid-19th century invention. So it's about performance practice.
Posted By: bennevis Re: 64 53 Fingering - 09/04/21 09:39 AM
Originally Posted by David-G
Originally Posted by bennevis
As my paws are the size of a koala bear's rather than a polar bear's (which I saw for the first time in Scotland two weeks ago - so huge that if it had swallowed me whole, I wouldn't have made a dent in its belly), ...

In a zoo, I hope? Or has climate change pushed the polar bear's range so far south? I'd be a bit worried if there are wild polar bears in Scotland now!
It was posing for tourists on an iceberg floating between the Orkney and Shetland Islands wink .....in the Highland Wildlife Park in the Cairngorms.
Even a hardcore mountaineer like me needs a break - occasionally - in the midst of Munro-bagging whistle.
Posted By: Sweelinck Re: 64 53 Fingering - 09/19/21 10:42 PM
Originally Posted by chopin_r_us
Out of interest how many of you would use this LH fingering for this common cadential pattern?
[Linked Image]
Mozart K330, 3rd mov.

I would use 1 2 4 on the second chord-- much more comfortable, and greater economy of motion.
Posted By: fatar760 Re: 64 53 Fingering - 09/19/21 10:58 PM
Originally Posted by Sweelinck
Originally Posted by chopin_r_us
Out of interest how many of you would use this LH fingering for this common cadential pattern?
[Linked Image]
Mozart K330, 3rd mov.

I would use 1 2 4 on the second chord-- much more comfortable, and greater economy of motion.

Each to their own, of course, but I'd find the stretch between 2,3,4 incredibly uncomfortable once extending to the D/F.

What the OP suggests feels unbalanced to me. I would suggest using 1,3,5 - which will allow a fairly legato movement to the D/F afterwards
Posted By: fatar760 Re: 64 53 Fingering - 09/19/21 11:01 PM
Originally Posted by chopin_r_us
[Linked Image]

This hand was GREAT in the Addams Family films.
Posted By: Sweelinck Re: 64 53 Fingering - 09/19/21 11:02 PM
Originally Posted by fatar760
Originally Posted by Sweelinck
Originally Posted by chopin_r_us
Out of interest how many of you would use this LH fingering for this common cadential pattern?
[Linked Image]
Mozart K330, 3rd mov.

I would use 1 2 4 on the second chord-- much more comfortable, and greater economy of motion.

Each to their own, of course, but I'd find the stretch between 2,3,4 incredibly uncomfortable once extending to the D/F.

What the OP suggests feels unbalanced to me. I would suggest using 1,3,5 - which will allow a fairly legato movement to the D/F afterwards


I would use 1 2 on the d/f, holding the 4.
Posted By: fatar760 Re: 64 53 Fingering - 09/19/21 11:08 PM
Originally Posted by Sweelinck
Originally Posted by fatar760
Originally Posted by Sweelinck
Originally Posted by chopin_r_us
Out of interest how many of you would use this LH fingering for this common cadential pattern?
[Linked Image]
Mozart K330, 3rd mov.

I would use 1 2 4 on the second chord-- much more comfortable, and greater economy of motion.

Each to their own, of course, but I'd find the stretch between 2,3,4 incredibly uncomfortable once extending to the D/F.

What the OP suggests feels unbalanced to me. I would suggest using 1,3,5 - which will allow a fairly legato movement to the D/F afterwards


I would use 1 2 on the d/f, holding the 4.

And where is your finger 5?
Posted By: Sweelinck Re: 64 53 Fingering - 09/19/21 11:51 PM
I would use:

1 3 5 for F/A/D
1 2 4 for G/C/E
1 2 4 for G/D/F
Posted By: chopin_r_us Re: 64 53 Fingering - 09/20/21 06:45 AM
Here's my hand resting on a table. The difference with you folks is (I think) my elbows are at my side:

[Linked Image]

Interestingly in Montgeroult's book it states "we will observe
than the thumb must be entirely under the index,"
Posted By: fatar760 Re: 64 53 Fingering - 09/20/21 08:30 AM
Originally Posted by Sweelinck
I would use:

1 3 5 for F/A/D
1 2 4 for G/C/E
1 2 4 for G/D/F

I understood, but I wonder where your finger 5 is.

Also, you're not not going to have a legato phrase with 1+2 moving from the C/E to D/F.
Posted By: chopin_r_us Re: 64 53 Fingering - 09/20/21 08:54 AM
Originally Posted by Sweelinck
I would use:

1 3 5 for F/A/D
1 2 4 for G/C/E
1 2 4 for G/D/F
For right hand? In that case:

1 2 5
1 2 4
1 3 5

Which I think everyone would do? More reason for my original left hand fingerings.
Posted By: Moz-art Re: 64 53 Fingering - 09/20/21 12:10 PM
Why not 531/521/521...? It's way more comfortable...
Posted By: fatar760 Re: 64 53 Fingering - 09/20/21 12:19 PM
Originally Posted by Moz-art
Why not 531/521/521...? It's way more comfortable...

For me, this fingering prevents a legato phrase.
Posted By: chopin_r_us Re: 64 53 Fingering - 09/20/21 01:40 PM
Yes, Mozart has tied the last two quavers.
Posted By: pianoloverus Re: 64 53 Fingering - 09/20/21 01:52 PM
Originally Posted by Moz-art
Why not 531/521/521...? It's way more comfortable...
The best fingering for most except those with very large hands. The whole fixation on playing that phrase with perfect legato and beyond awkward fingering is silly.
Posted By: fatar760 Re: 64 53 Fingering - 09/20/21 02:02 PM
Originally Posted by pianoloverus
Originally Posted by Moz-art
Why not 531/521/521...? It's way more comfortable...
The best fingering for most except those with very large hands. The whole fixation on playing that phrase with perfect legato and beyond awkward fingering is silly.

Would you like a broom for that large sweeping statement or.....?
Posted By: chopin_r_us Re: 64 53 Fingering - 09/20/21 02:07 PM
Whatever the fingering you must at least slur 1 set of quavers (goes without saying).
Posted By: pianoloverus Re: 64 53 Fingering - 09/20/21 03:48 PM
Originally Posted by fatar760
Originally Posted by pianoloverus
Originally Posted by Moz-art
Why not 531/521/521...? It's way more comfortable...
The best fingering for most except those with very large hands. The whole fixation on playing that phrase with perfect legato and beyond awkward fingering is silly.

Would you like a broom for that large sweeping statement or.....?
I bet if you look at top pianists playing this passage none of them try to connect both notes marked with the slur. Some will probably use 531-531-521 to connect the lower two notes. There are so many more important things to be concerned with in this piece IMO the attempt at pure legato fingering is missing the forest for the trees.
Posted By: chopin_r_us Re: 64 53 Fingering - 09/20/21 04:06 PM
If both are easily slurred them you would. With a natural oblique angle of fingers (because wrist pronators are relaxed) it is (easy).
Posted By: fatar760 Re: 64 53 Fingering - 09/20/21 04:19 PM
Originally Posted by pianoloverus
Originally Posted by fatar760
Originally Posted by pianoloverus
Originally Posted by Moz-art
Why not 531/521/521...? It's way more comfortable...
The best fingering for most except those with very large hands. The whole fixation on playing that phrase with perfect legato and beyond awkward fingering is silly.

Would you like a broom for that large sweeping statement or.....?
I bet if you look at top pianists playing this passage none of them try to connect both notes marked with the slur. Some will probably use 531-531-521 to connect the lower two notes. There are so many more important things to be concerned with in this piece IMO the attempt at pure legato fingering is missing the forest for the trees.

My fingering suggestion worked around slurring the bottom two notes - I just don't think it's necessary to slur both as the ear won't hear it. It's also the most comfortable for my hand size.
Posted By: fatar760 Re: 64 53 Fingering - 09/20/21 04:29 PM
I'd certainly be interested in seeing which fingering top pianists use if any footage exists.
Posted By: Sweelinck Re: 64 53 Fingering - 09/21/21 03:07 AM
Rather than watching a video, what you would want to do is listen for whether the 3rds in the left hand are played legato, and if pedaling is used. If you insist on playing those notes legato with no use of pedal, then you have to decide how to accomplish that.

Fingering is a means to a goal, not the goal itself. We should choose an interpretation and then choose a fingering that supports the technical and interpretive objectives, not just automatically copy the fingering of another pianist.

I think there can be a discussion about whether a slur in the accompaniment implies mandatory legato or just articulative phrasing. I also think the slightest touch of the damper pedal after the C natural is played in the third group of triplets in the right hand can accomplish legato without a loss of clarity.
Posted By: fatar760 Re: 64 53 Fingering - 09/21/21 03:04 PM
Originally Posted by Sweelinck
Rather than watching a video, what you would want to do is listen for whether the 3rds in the left hand are played legato, and if pedaling is used

Pretty sure we could watch and listen at the same time.

Originally Posted by Sweelinck
We should choose an interpretation and then choose a fingering that supports the technical and interpretive objectives, not just automatically copy the fingering of another pianist

No one here suggested copying anything.

Originally Posted by Sweelinck
I think there can be a discussion about whether a slur in the accompaniment implies mandatory legato or just articulative phrasing. I also think the slightest touch of the damper pedal after the C natural is played in the third group of triplets in the right hand can accomplish legato without a loss of clarity.

Possibly so, but the OP was asking whether we'd use their fingering suggestion, which invites others to offer their suggestions.

We can get into a more nuanced debate regarding articulation, pedalling, interpretation etc. but ultimately the question was based on hand shape and I would regard any uncomfortable/unbalanced stretches to be avoided and for the written articulation to be serviced as accurately as possible.
Posted By: Sweelinck Re: 64 53 Fingering - 09/21/21 06:52 PM
You are defining away the problem, which is to choose a fingering that best supports you meeting the technical and interpretive demands of the passage with your hands.
Posted By: fatar760 Re: 64 53 Fingering - 09/21/21 08:05 PM
Originally Posted by Sweelinck
You are defining away the problem, which is to choose a fingering that best supports you meeting the technical and interpretive demands of the passage with your hands.

I don't know what you mean by 'defining away the problem', but I offered my suggestion of fingering based on the bar that was provided.
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