I'm at kind of a crossroads in my life. Since I graduated in 2005 with a BM in piano, I've been a "working musician" with a full-time job that is unrelated to music. My job pays decently, but is unfulfilling and the high cost of living in the area where I live is making it difficult to see much of a future here. I do play with some local choirs, but I'm just not getting the performance opportunities I'd like to have. I've saved up about $30,000 and so, I'm playing around with the idea of going back to school. Eastman would be my primary and foremost choice because of its academic strength and I should be able to prepare a satisfactory audition to their criteria (Beethoven op. 101, Brahms op. 21/2, Schoenberg op. 11/2, Chopin op. 10/10 etude).

Has anyone here done anything similar? I would be uprooting myself completely and starting over, plus, most likely, relying on student loans to cover my costs while I studied. One alternative would be to get an MA locally and then apply to a doctoral program later, but I doubt I would be able to fully commit myself to it given my current work schedule, and losing any income would be a problem given the escalating cost of living here. Rochester NY is quite cheap by comparison.

I don't know any of the answers but I just wanted to say that I am very impressed and even moved by your story. You've done well in circumstances that haven't been easy and not what you've wanted, including that you've been able to save so much during a time when a lot of people have been lucky if they've just been able to get by.

And good luck. You surely deserve it.

It sounds making better living (more money) is one of the big concern for you.
If it is the case, I do not think getting MA in piano performance will be the fast fix to the problem.
It is better off that you to go to a business school, and get a job that will fulfill your financial needs first.
After that, you can play piano for fun like many people here. It is fun to play piano for fun, rather than making money from playing piano.

I'm well aware that most musicians with DMA's make less money than I do now. The issue for me is that it's not fulfilling to do something else for 8 hours a day and then try to squeeze in music if I have time - it's just not what I wanted to do with my life.

If it is your passion, you should pursue it then.
Build good relationship with piano people etc, you can make pretty good money too by teaching serious students.
Good luck!

I understand your love for piano. I am probably older than you and studying with a concert pianist that I have mentioned before once every month. I truly love my job as a pelvic floor surgeon but pursing a DMA in piano performance is now my dream. I am lucky to love two professions and to be competent in at least one so far in life.

A doctorate in classical piano performance will likely not be helpful to your future ability to earn income. It tends to confine one to an academic tribe that does not need another piano professor. And I shudder to think of the cost of that credential, between tuition and several years of lost income. Clearly you are doing well right now.

My advice would indeed be to pursue a master's part-time while keeping your present job, and then reevaluating your situation. Or even better might be to keep your job but skip the master's idea, keep playing for the choirs, find a high-level piano teacher within an hour's drive with whom to study privately, and hire a life coach to keep you aimed toward your goals. Or to help you refine those goals.

There's nothing wrong with a return to full-time schooling, if you can afford it. But it can be a dodge from living the life you want.

I kind of feel two ways. At first, I want to scold those who tell you that you should forget about it and keep making money - you know, money isn't the only aim in life. Money comes and goes. You don't need $2 million condos to be happy, Jesus. Etc. (And I know what it's like to be scraping by, so don't question my judgement) It absolutely SUCKS, more than anything, to be doing something that you DO NOT want to do. That's 8 hours of your life every day!!! And then you go home, have a drink, whatever, cook, sleep. Wake up and do it all over again. What kind of a life is that? I'd rather have no money and be scraping by than living a life like that. It absolutely kills your soul. And if you enjoy what you do, then good for you - that's a different story.

But on the other hand... what do you expect from this degree? Is there a way to do it cheaper - ie, what are the schools that offer full scholarships, are you good enough to get full scholarships, etc. If you're just doing it to escape your current situation for some years, I wouldn't do it. Because then you'd be back to square one, in debt, and back at your current job. If you can cut down your hours of working and work musically related jobs, and play concerts, then I'd suggest doing just that.

So... I don't know.

Keep in mind that a degree from Eastman (or Curtis, or Juilliard, or Manhattan),
will likely not thrust you into a life of performance opportunities much beyond choir stuff anyway. Winning competitions or aggressively organizing your own concerts is the only thing that will do that.

Have you thought about applying to SFCM? Just a 5 years ago, it had the reputation as the "reject" school, but now it's on par with Eastman and Colburn, quickly gaining prestige, and they give tremendous financial aid. Cost of living is bloody expensive, but then again your in SF, so your plugged into tons of potential teaching and performance jobs, potential for earning income (much more than in Rochester), plus I'd imagine you have your current contacts nearby in San Jose. You could study while simultaneously building your career, whereas in Rochester, once you finish with the degree, you gotta get out and start over in some new place anyway.

My question is what would you plan to do with an MA in music? Although I have not taught at a junior college I have a family member that does...and honestly you'll make a more money teaching privately.

rada

As someone who went back to school and studied for the DMA and now three years out of school I can tell you I could have done the same jobs I am doing now with a Bachelors degree. I teach piano at a music academy and have a church job. I am the most qualified of all my coworkers, aside from me about half have Bachelors degrees and half have recently finished a M.M. I was lucky in that I had an assistantship for my DMA so I did not go into debt, but I do have quite a bit of debt from my Masters. If you want to teach I would say look into joining MTNA and completing their certification and/or go to school locally study Piano Ped. and Performance for your Masters, while building a studio in your area, a lot of it is networking and word of mouth actually. I could give you so many examples of coworkers, classmates, friends who took out enormous debt to go to school and are now teaching privately and struggling with bills. They had these big dreams and expectations when in reality the college teaching market does not support all of these graduates. My coworkers and I often have discussed that making a living as a freelance musician is difficult. I make about $28K a year at this point.
Would I trade it all in for something else? I've thought about that many times but always conclude that I can't imagine another profession, so there you go.

Hi Jeff,

My old boss at UCI finished her MA at 24 from USC. She got the job at my old department teaching the students the "faculty" didn't want to teach, mostly piano minors, as a visiting lecturer. She also got a job running the piano division at a (then) newly opened junior college nearby.

A tenured position came up the last year I was in graduate school that paid more and would have gotten her more clout in the department. She is a wonderful player, excellent teacher, had been hired as a soloist many, many times with local and regional orchestras, was starting to concertize outside of the area, played lots of chamber music with good people, etc. She was really beginning to build a career. However, the department decided to hire the violin teacher's wife who had a DMA from Indiana.

So my old boss got fed up and auditioned for DMA programs. She got in to Mannes, Manhattan and SUNY to study with Gil Kalish. She opted to go to SUNY, and had a great experience. She and her husband finally settled in North Carolina, which they don't hate, where he works for Roland and she runs the piano department at a performing arts high school. She is not unhappy with how things turned out.

Tell me, is there a particular piano teacher at Eastman you want to study with? After all, the connections a famous teacher can plug you into are worth their weight in gold. Or are you thinking about a musicology or theory degree?

If you there is a teacher there you have in mind, have you played for them yet? Also, would you consider going to a school that would give you an assistantship/fellowship?

My guiding principle is if I would regret it if I am to die tomorrow. Life has an expiration date. May not work for everyone but just imagine if you have only so few years to live. It tends to sort out what important for you.

Would you like to go to Eastman to learn more incredible pieces, have opportunities to play with orchestras (could be at school too) and live with music 24 hours? Would you like to travel many countries (need money for this)? If you are single, would you like to meet a man or woman of your dream (may require time and some money)? Would you rather spend all your savings and get a European grand?

For me, I wanted little bit of both. So I only have up to an hour of practice time. I'm constantly sleepy but love my life outside of piano as well. I know 2 DMA's. One is doing extremely well. A respected professor with full studio, some people drive 2 hours (in AZ) to take lesson from her. She performs a lot in the community from solo, chamber, etc. So she is doing well. Another one has only 10 students. She teaches at an after school music academy on the side. She lives in a high cost area. She told me that she realized that she did not like people. She is a great performer but did not like teaching. I hope you like to teach people as much as performing. Because that's something you can fall back on.

F.Y.I.

Kind of hard to study under someone who is not there.

http://www.esm.rochester.edu/faculty/true_nelita/

The fun part of having normal people job (office jobs)

1. You get paid while you take vacation.
2. If you are not in the mood of working,you can do nothing for hours. You just need to pretend to be busy.
3. If you are good and personable, you can keep moving up, and make more money.
4. There are way more positions than, say, piano teaching at community colleges, universities, etc.

The not fun things of having normal people job:
1. Office politics.
2. We are faced with many things that we have to solve (no previous examples).
3. Get laid off
4. Work 8 hours or more every day.
5. Sometimes need to do tedious work (depend on the nature of the job)

But at the end of the day, I'd rather work normal job, and play piano for fun. It will drive me crazy to keep practicing, and teaching, not to mention unsteady income, etc. Last thing (for office job), you do not need to be very good to make decent monies, just be above average to make decent monies.

It really depends on the person. Some people really want to have DMA for personal satisfaction. Some people will just be happy to be able to play like a DMA without the need to have the DMA diploma. Nothing will fit for everybody.....You should think what makes you happy and move on.

Good evening.



Sure! Although I was a good bit older than you. Best thing I ever did, should'a done it years earlier, but you know would'a should'a could'a. Never looked back, never un instant of regret. Ever think of going and doing this in Europe?

Hats off to Pogo for her post!

I think if this is your dream, you should go ahead and apply. Given your savings and the possibility of stipend, you may not be looking at debt. You're right that living in Rochester is cheap. (Just be prepared for a long winter without sun.)

Just to touch on a few points that different people have kindly pointed out.

I'm aware that I would have most of the same opportunities with a DMA that I already have with my bachelor's, especially since I have so much collaborative experience already. And that I would make less money working full-time as a musician than I do now, unless I taught privately and charged substantially more than I do now based on the prestige of the degree. Which is fine - I think I'm worth it and my students think I'm worth it, but if more people would be knocking on my door if I had an advanced degree, then that is something of a plus. As it is, I turn down new students almost on a weekly basis because I'm too busy.

This might be something that's more possible years down the road - when I've saved up more cash than what I have now, and can buy a house outright in Rochester or Cleveland or Bloomington and take it from there.

What's not really possible is doing a part-time masters now. I work 60 hours a week and sometimes every day for a full month, because I have a day job, three choirs, Sunday services, and four students plus the odd symphony engagement, competition, wedding, or what have you. The amount of practice time that it takes to prepare a master's recital would simply be out of reach. But if I really did just want to focus on scholarship - which I think is my strong point more so than actual playing - Stanford is in my backyard if they would have me and if I could afford it...

My teacher also went to SUNY and studied with Gilbert Kalish. I haven't discounted that idea though I know nothing about Long Island.

I suppose the underlying question is what exactly I want to do. I suppose the answer is that I want to learn more about great music beyond what you can get from liner notes or Wikipedia. I loved going deeper and getting the full perspective on what I was studying. The theoretical analysis of Beethoven's Op. 7 slow movement that Dr. Belet walked us through rates as one of the most satisfying musical experiences I've ever had. The music library in downtown San Jose is pretty extensive, but it's out of date and isn't getting the newest scholarship in its doors. It's a musical museum. Oberlin was a musical forest, much more of a living thing.

While my response may not be on topic, this statement just seems to echo what is seriously wrong with the attitude of so many in the modern work force. Any job one gets paid to do is worth doing well and honestly, whether or not one is "in the mood." Whether the attitude espoused by RS is rampant world-wide nor not, I cannot say, but that someone should publicly advocate dishonesty to this degree just appalls me!

Well said, Bruce.

While you are at it, please inform us as to the music college degree that the late Malcom Frager had, as well as the multiple degrees of the late Charles Rosen. They need to know.

And, while you are at it, tell them what Charles Ives did for a "living."

Bruce,

It is not dishonest. The work at the end of the day must be done. Only people who works in the office have more control. If they do not want to work at this moment, they can delay three hours as long as not urgent. But the work must be done by staying later. With piano stuff, you cannot do that. When you teach somebody, you must work, you have no control over it. Unless you do not want to make money.

I do not know what line of work you were in. It is totally normal for office environment to control the timing. If someone is a teacher, he cannot do this, because he deals with people. Office workers who do not deal with people have the flexibility. Again, as long as the work done....nobody will make a fuss. In addition, people are not busy all the time. How about those people who work from home, do you think they work as hard as people in the office.

Last note, non hourly people (exempt) do not work by hour. Some days, we must work 14 hours, some days we just need to work 6 hours. I was not advocating dishonesty, I was just stating the reality of office life.

If it weren't dishonest, you wouldn't have to pretend anything.

-J

So you expect to sit doing nothing for two hours? Because you are not in the mood of working at the time. You guys talk as if you were so immaculate. At least, I am honest to say that I took some breaks whenever I want, and so are other people in the three companies that I have been......throw the first stone if you are not guilty of taking breaks.

You didn't mention anything about making up the break time at the end of the day in your first comment. Many office jobs don't have a specified amount of work to be accomplished on a given day, so one can't just do that day's work at one's convenience.

Sounds like a serious cost benefit analysis or listing the pros and cons is in order. From your two posts on this it seems to me a return to school is what you really want. If you can do it in a way that minimizes the risks I think it is worth it for you to go ahead and get the DMA. I always favor more education and I see it as an investment in yourself.

You might find that you are back where you started but you will have something to show for your time and will have thoroughly enjoyed it. Spending your time making good connections and networking will likely benefit you in ways that you can't quantify. Outside of that setting it would be hard to make the same kinds of connections. Just always be sure to leverage your current and past experiences whether they are music related or not.

You can at least feel that you have put yourself in a very favorable position to be able to have these choices. Can you live with the worst-case scenario of following your passion? If so I say go for it.

(Back on topic!)

Should probably mention, the summers in Rochester are glorious.

(Sort of on topic.)

I'd like to ask one question, Jeffrey. What, exactly, do you want to do with music? I'm very curious, especially since you mentioned that you turn away students (on a weekly basis).

I did not mention, because I do not work that way (hourly mentality). I work till I am done, I do not pay attention to the time. Some days I work long hours or work on Saturdays and Sundays, But there were some days if I am not in the mood of working, I just do the necessary things.

Small footnote:
Life in Rochester and in Long Island is, otherwise, rather boring. Even the landscape suffers from bland uniformity, though on balance LI offers the advantage of proximity to the ocean and to NYC (facilitated by the uber slow blast to the past that is the LI Railroad).

+1

Isn't anyone paying attention. As far as piano performance is concerned, there is no "Eastman" anymore!

In the past, the so-called greatness of the conservatories was directly related to a particular "great" concert pianist/piano professor. Yo!, they are all either all dead or have moved-on into retirement.

I think it just says she is on leave in 2013... What's the big news?

Do you think you could do this with weekly private lessons with an extremely qualified and inspiring teacher, without being enrolled in a school?

I know most people here are encouraging you to chase your dream. And I would, too.

However, since you are not confident that you can get a scholarship or such, getting into deeper student debt is a serious matter.

If you have a decent paying job right now, I would suggest you keep your job and get in an artistic diploma program. Most universities do allow you switch to Masters when you finished AD. And you can still apply for DMA later. The plus side of this way is the AD program allows you to save some cash on tuition.

And that is exactly why I teach piano for a living - I enjoy doing something of which every second is meaningful. When I work, I work.

It's hard, intense, fulfilling work, but I have control over my schedule. If I choose to teach 4 hours a day, at the end of those 4 hours the rest of the day I have ACTUAL time off, to do as I please. I may have spent 4 hours, but every minute was filled with meaning and sweat.

Being in an office from 8 to 5 every day, but only actually doing about 3 hours worth of actual intense, and involved work (that would rival teaching) and spending the other 5 hanging around the water cooler, goofing off, or inventing Costanzaesque ways of pretending to be busy in my florescent-lit cubicle would make me put a bullet in my head.

It would also probably get you fired.

Would it?....that's not what our friend Ronald Says...and my cousin's boyfriend has an office job where he alphabetizes and scans health insurance forms all day...which he says he can do in his sleep and get's done the first 2 hours of every workday and just got a promotion. Granted, it's a lower-rung position.

And only for the fall semester. This is not a long absence.

Don't you know anything about how it works? For starters, who is preparing her students for their final senior juries, for those who are graduating in December. It sure isn't Nelita True.

Second, her webpage doesn't show any master classes or other engagements for the fall. The lady has been at it for awhile, and she ain't 21 years old anymore.

The overall point is that in the 1940's, 50, 60, and even 70's, you had famous world renown concert pianists on the faculties of all of the top music schools. As of right now, all there is left, to my knowledge, are Jerome Lowenthal, Emmanuel Ax, and Andre Watts.

That is no a reason to put oneself through dire misery in order to get a job that isn't there. My former dean of the college of fine arts at UT is a man by the name of Dr. Robert Freeman.

Bob Freeman, who was the former dean at Eastman, and was the President at MIT, has made it his area of academic expertise to study the reality that most degreed classical musicians are not working musicians.

He has found that with the average retirement age for classical music faculty being shortly before death, that there just are not any jobs out there. Further, once someone gets a slot in a major orchestra or university, they ain't going anywhere and for a long, long time.

Hi Jeffrey,

Have you completely ruled out other schools? It seems like going to Eastman would probably be a waste of money. If you are going for your MM, you should be applying somewhere you can get an assistantship. Also, ideally somewhere in a large enough city that you can pick up private piano students while completing the MM program. Then when you graduate you are in a position to start teaching privately instead of having to build up a studio. If you want to go on to pursue a DMA, still get the MM somewhere that you can get money. Then try to audition for a DMA program elsewhere (hopefully still places that offer money). Either way you need to be thinking about what comes after the MM. (Jobs/Student Debt)

Also, I realize you said you are capable of playing an audition at Eastman. I don't stay on pianoworld enough to know your posts and I don't know anything about your playing, so please don't take this personally. Being able to play the pieces for an audition is entirely different than being able to get accepted to the school. The rep requirements are guidelines and they are pretty similar for most MM programs. I can also meet the requirements to audition at Eastman. However, I would not attempt that audition. :-)

I think if you want a MM, your question should be--> Where can I go that has a great teacher and also assistantship availability? Great teachers exist elsewhere besides the top tier. They also are probably more willing to provide you with personal attention, performance opportunities, extra lessons, and potential job recommendations at schools where you can stand out.

So?


So?



There are quite a few extremely outstanding pedagogues around, sorry to burst your bubble. I'm not sure what you're trying to prove here...



Well, there are jobs but they're limited. So you better be frickin' good, and know that you're not going to get a university position right away. However, there's a lot you can do with music, and if you're great at it - best to keep working hard, because we need to be the change in the music world (us, young people) and put a stop to its mediocrity. I completely believe that young people will make a difference, and I just hope the good ones stick around..

Good attitude. Are you a fresh grad or still in school?

Not in school this year. It's forcing me to think about the real future, and experience what it's like to not have the security blanket (school) around me this time.

Louis, that simply is not true. It's a pity your experience is so limited. Almost all the best teachers are still on faculty somewhere. Yes, it's true that most of the Russian expats who come over during the Revolution are dead. But there are still quite a few excellent artist teachers in these institutions. Conservatory and university piano programs turn out droves of top players every year, and will continue to do so. The 20 or so full-time working concert artists worldwide that you seem to suggest as the better choice in teachers...don't teach!

Ah OK. You will be rethinking what you have just posted in a few years.

But as far as I can tell you, keep your chin up.

I won't rethink anything. If I wanted to switch, I would've done it by now.

O OK.

Are you two flirting???

OK. I had a night to sleep on it and a few hours at the piano with a book of Schumann to clear my head. I'm going to take things one step at a time.. polish my playing, get in touch with some of the people who helped me get where I am, and then see what doors will open after that.

"...I'm going to take things one step at a time.. polish my playing, get in touch with some of the people who helped me get where I am, and then see what doors will open after that..."

You have a gift for music that is not given to so very many people, Jeffrey; it is not planted in you to no purpose, nor with no hope that it can take root and grow to magnificence. You may have seen the seed of the biggest redwood--- it is a tiny little thing. It seems to me, that you also have good enough sense not to plunge blindly forward, but to craft a career, step by step, and with help and guidance. I think that you will find a place for yourself. I think that it may also happen in some surprising and unforeseen way. There is no saying what doors may open for you, after your years of preparation.

The music industry is expanding in recent years. The many regional theatres and performing arts organizations are doing things all over the country, that in past years only happened in the biggest cities. There is also a market for books about music, and I know that you love and respect the writings. Who else could spot the tiniest little Walter Gieseking volume on my shelves, among a couple of thousand others. It is very far from the case that "everything has been said." Works of value can last for a long time in print (returning royalties all the while), and the maw of the media market is insatiable. Even the most humble TV programs and commercials find music indispensable--- and the re-runs go on forever. Or nearly forever... maybe it just seems like forever.

I remember seeing Larry Fine when his Piano Book was just a slim little sheaf of typewritten pages in his hand. He was just an unknown piano tuner back then. But, it has had a pretty good run, which had no foretelling.

Music programs shrink in many public schools, yet expand and are well-funded in some private schools. There are organizations in many countries which make a great effort to lift artists and musicians up, and give them opportunities--- not step on them (though there's plenty of that, too). Canada comes to mind; there are others.

You're perfectly well able to make up your own mind, and find your fortune. You show up for your own life, and work hard at it--- and you have a real, certified, good-as-cash gift. Too often, gifted people are too lazy, or their gears are too bent, to do anything with what they have... but that is not true in your case. I don't know if Eastman is the answer for you, or if it's going to be something else. Degrees do open doors (and cost a lot of money--- but there are scholarships and grants, and all kinds of things like that, if you can get hooked up with some of them).

Your question was a serious one, and deserves a serious answer. You've already gotten some good information which could probably be mined via PMs. Besides the present suggestions, there are other people who post on PW who know a lot, and who would probably share what they know.

I would still be studying with you, if I hadn't run out of money--- it was just that simple. Our destinies crossed; c'est la vie. I still play, and what I learned from you is still valuable to me. I wish you the best good fortune, and I hope you follow your dream.