Hi all - another question from the noob. Every dealer i've been talking to as I do my research has recommended installing a piano saver system (they all say they are doing it at their cost) to control the humidity levels in the piano. In NJ you can imagine the humidity fluctuates wildly between summer and winter. Is this something that is recommended?

As you can imagine it's been years since I've been in the piano market and the new tech available out there constantly amazes me!

This is just my opinion, and my piano experience is limited, but I don't think the "Damp-Chaser" systems or "Piano Life Saver" systems are as popular as some may think, although several members of PW have them installed in their piano. It is an option, and not something you absolutely need, especially if the environment in your home is relatively stable in terms of %RH swings.

On the other hand, if properly installed, and maintained (on a continuous basis), they do help the tuning stability of an acoustic piano, usually. Even so, despite the damp chaser system installed, an acoustic piano will still need tuning periodically.

That said, there are a lot of testimonials from piano owners with damp-chaser systems installed in their piano, that they do help tuning stability. I have the heater bars (but not the humidifier) and a humidistat instilled under the soundboard of my Yamaha C7, and I think it helps some during periods of higher humidity.

Also, FWIW, I don't have the source of the info in front of me, but I've read that some high-profile piano manufacturers do not recommend the damp chaser systems on their piano.

Personally, I think it is just another optional add-on the dealer is trying to sell/promote, and I don't believe the "at cost" statement, but that is just me.

Good luck!

Rick

My tech doesn't believe that a tiny heater bar can effectively control the humidity for the whole soundboard. Winters in Portland are ok (don't need to run excessive heat so it doesn't get too dry) but my summer tuning stability increased when I got a Danby dehumidifier. I run it under the piano with the relative humidity set at 50%. I had been opening windows to cool down the house at night and I didn't realize what huge humidity swings there are from doing that!

I'm in northern New Jersey. Despite having a whole house humidifier, in winter my (cheap) hygrometer shows relative humidity at 27. So - yeah, I use the system. Also, somebody posted a while back that they'd measured room humidity and then measured near the soundboard (with the piano saver installed and running) and got a higher reading.

If you have really tough humidity conditions in your home, and the system is properly installed, and if you get a grand piano, have the “undercover” installed, keep the piano closed when not in use, and are willing to do the periodic maintenance (about every 6 months) and monitor the status every few days…then it’s a good idea.

Most users don’t fall into all these categories, so they would be better served investing the savings into a few more piano tunings. In most parts of non-coastal NJ, I suspect just running a bit of room humidification in the dead of winter would be sufficient. Central AC would take care of the humidity in the summer. Maybe don’t open the windows in your piano room in between. If you’re really worried, then get a hygrometer and try to maintain the room humidity in as tight of a range as you can, practically speaking. I can keep my piano room basically between 35-60%, over the course of the year, which isn’t perfect, but it isn’t horrible, either.

I like the whole house solution, because it helps other stuff too: furniture, people (one daughter is prone to nose bleeds in the Winter), etc (I have 4 guitars and more than one piano, so all benefit). I think if you can keep the space the piano is in (room or whole house) relatively stable, then you’re ok. If not, then investigate a system.

(FWIW, opinions differ strongly on this topic)

I had always relied on the AC to cut humidity, but over the years we’ve steadily pushed the thermostat up a few degrees. We also replaced the AC a couple summers ago and the new system is more efficient. Consequently, it doesn’t run as much, and so the humidity crept up. So, last summer I bought a stand-alone dehumidifier to “augment” the AC, and it helps a lot.

Having had DC system in two grands, I highly recommend it. You will save the cost very soon in less tuning visits, or at least enjoy piano that has good tuning stability.

I live in the DC metro area and previously lived in the northeast and Midwest. All of these climates have significant changes in humidity throughout the year. New Jersey will be similar.

The way that I think about this is that humidity control is a layered thing. If you have a good HVAC system that maintains a reasonable level of humidity control, this is great and will go a long way. The Dampp Chaser is a layer on top of that that will further help with tuning stability. Room humidification/dehumidification is also an option or layer that you can have, but it honestly requires a lot more maintenance than either a good home HVAC system or a Dampp Chaser. For a point of reference, I fill my Dampp Chaser tank about once every 10 days during the driest months and about once a month during the most humid months. We have a dehumidifier in the basement that needs to be emptied every day or two during the most humid months.

For me, the Dampp chaser is a pretty low maintenance way of helping the piano. Does it create a perfect microclimate that keeps the entire soundboard at exactly 42% RH year round? I doubt it! But I think it helps, and it’s pretty low effort on my part.

Piano mom,

You did not specify whether you are buying a grand or an upright piano (I think). Uprights respond significantly better with a DC system than do grands (closed vs open).

There is absolutely no argument over which is better. Whole house total climate control to museum quality level is hands down THE BEST. If you can achieve that you have no need of any contraptions on your piano.

If you cannot achieve the above then that now creates a situation calling for a reasonable solution since everyone everywhere KNOWS that good humidity control is the single best thing you can do for the stability and longevity of your piano.

The DC system (properly installed and maintained) is one of those solutions (not perfect but pretty good esp on uprights). Grands need an undercover AND a full overcover (anytime not in use) to make it more effective. I would not own a piano without a system on it. I have been installing them for decades.

Peter Grey Piano Doctor

Properly installed and maintained, they can make a dramatic difference.

Well, my piano will be on the main floor where the temp is fairly regulated but NJ gets so dry in the winter, and hella humid (like this whole week!) in the summer. I'll get the humidity monitor and think about the Piano Saver - let's find a piano first! :P

It's so funny growing up, my parents saved up and bought me an old Hardman upright piano and NONE of this stuff was ever factored in! My mom said they just went to a Macy's, picked one out based on 1) the price and 2) how it looked and the color (brown with ornate legs and music stand!), and boom, it got delivered. And that piano got me through 15+ years of lessons and auditions and performance rehearsals and all that! I'm really glad I found you guys that has taught me so much more, exposed me to all this new tech, and I appreciate all the input and info as I now go through this piano-hunting journey. Lots to think about - and excited to be getting back into it!

I would not purchase anything until you collect data on the humidity in your home. You may be solving a problem that does not exist.

Me too. I highly doubt that it can.

It can't. That's why it is NOT a panacea. Too many assumptions get made about these systems. They are only a partial solution. Designed to work pretty well between 35% and 65% RH. The rest is up to you. If you decide not to do it you reap the consequences. Pretty simple.

Peter Grey Piano Doctor

The same thought occurred to me initially, especially because wood is a relatively poor thermal conductor (i.e. a good insulator). But then it occurred to me that perhaps the heater bar isn't meant to heat the wood directly, but to heat the air adjacent to the wood. Air is also not a great conductor, but the temp will change through convection instead. The raised temp would lower RH. And the RH change in the air would affect the wood more evenly.

Put a bucket of water under the piano...!! 100% better tuning stability guarantee!

I thought, but maybe I’m wrong, that adding humidification directly under the piano was not best. I know that a commercial humidifier is to be placed a few feet away.

I tried one in my Yamaha g7 for years and couldn’t really tell the difference. Removed it 6 years ago and am not sorry.

Well firstly your problem has to be too dry rather than too humid for that to help.

Then you have no control over it so will have to remove and take away the bucket as the humidity changes.

Then it is unlikely to be as effective as the humidifying component of the life saver as you only have the surface area of the bucket to evaporate moisture. Now if you do effectively what the PLS does and suspend a towel into your bucket of water with a fan blowing over the towel you would likely get something even better if your towel and fan were bigger than the ones in the PLS But you would then need, like the PLS, to also use a humidstat for controlling your fan.

Worth considering for a simple cheap and reasonably effective way of passively increasing local humidity is to use the "hydroceel" tubes - which are essentially a less messy and longer lasting version of a big wet sponge. Personally I've stopped using one of these hydroceel units and have simplified to just dehumidifying as my problem is more one of periods of high humidity than being too dry.

I may be wrong but I think the principle is simply that if you have a small humidifying device, such as the PLS, which is designed to only humidify a small area around the piano, then you need it by (or actually in) the piano. However if you have a big unit designed to humidify a whole room or whole house that will produce so much water vapour that the air near to it is far too moist for a piano and you need to keep the two a sensible distance apart.

I don’t know how to use the quote system, but referring to something that Peter W. Grey posted, he said that when the DC system is installed, that grands need an undercover AND an overcover (anytime not in use) to make it more effective.
Peter, does an overcover refer to the piano lid or a piano string cover, or both? Thanks.

Hi, go to the reply you want to quote (the text), you will see a quote button next to the reply button, press the quote then the actual quote will appear in the quick reply box

Damien,

It refers to a completely separate custom fitted full cover that hangs down well beyond the sides of the piano.

The problem with a grand piano is simply that there is no way to "contain" the "micro-climate" that the system creates just below the soundboard. Any reasonable air movement in the room will disturb it, causing the system to have to work harder. Therefore isolating it as much as possible (undercover) and retaining it (overcover) is what I have found to be the best of a difficult situation.

Auxiliary external humidification should also be added in particularly dry climates to help affect the rest of the structure (including the pinblock which BTW has a large effect on tuning stability...not because of loose pins but because it expands and contracts changing dimension and thus tensions in the forward string sections).

Alternatively you can turn your thermostat down in the winter to about 55 degrees. That will keep the RH up quite a bit higher and the piano will remain much better in tune throughout. (BTW I'm not kidding). If you insist on 70 plus degrees all winter you'll pay the price. In the "old days" they wore sweaters and such. Now everyone wants to be able to run around the house in their underwear...

Edit: For a vertical piano I have found the back side system to be absolutely ideal as far as stability. The down side is that you have to move the piano to change the pads, sometimes a real pain in the neck (literally).

Peter Grey Piano Doctor

Maybe it's just me, but the above is a case where the piano will need to deal for the good of the household, rather than the other way around

I agree 100% with Gwing.

You are not wrong!

Peter, I basically agree with everything you say. But on the specific point: "The problem with a grand piano is simply that there is no way to "contain" the "micro-climate" that the system creates just below the soundboard", I am not sure that this is 100% true. At least, when we are talking about the heater bar. The air warmed by the heater bar is slightly lighter than the surrounding air, and so will tend to rise. The soundboard and the bottom part of the rim form a sort of "upside-down container", which will tend to contain the warmed air. It will spread out across the underside of the soundboard, and will be stopped from escaping by the rim. Of course, this contained layer of warmed air may easily be disturbed by air currents under the piano, unless you have an undercover.

If the PLS has a humidifying unit, the situation may not be the same - it depends whether or not the humidified air is warmer than the surrounding air - which would require a little research to establish.

I particularly agree with this statement:


This is precisely what I do. Because my piano room is not a living room, I can and do turn off the central heating radiators in the room on cold frosty nights in winter. The room gets very cold, but the RH stays up at my desired level. This means that I do not need to use a humidifier in the winter. Like Gwing I use a dehumidifier to prevent excessive RH in late summer and autumn. (We are both in the South-East of England.)

Some of the best preserved instruments I have seen have been in this kind of environment.

Peter Grey Piano Doctor

I closed off my music room.I use a whole house humidifier rated for 3000 sq feet but is only good for one room. it is set to 50% rh. In warm months I use a dehumidifier set to 50% RH. If you have heat on in your house your piano will dry out w/o humidifying. and worse in summer too much humidity can do a lot of damage. I watch the numbers more carefully in spring and fall when the dryness of the air changes quickly. My rec is do what I do if you can. Your piano will love you for it. I really think controlling the whole room to control the whole piano is the way to go. I have a lot of money invested in my piano and I plan to keep it in top condition. i recommend you all do the same.

Peter, I am curious to know if you have many (any?) customers who do this?

1. My teacher owned a Bosendorfer. She SWORE by her dampp chaser! And her piano was always in pristine condition and required few tunings, even with regular play from her students. Of course, she lived in the Midwest, so crazy humidity isn’t a huge thing here except in the dog days of summer, and she had HVAC for air and heat. So, there wasn’t too much that needed to be done. Still, she SWORE by it. And looked down at the peasants who didn’t have it (J/K).

2. If they are willing to install it at “their cost” (which they’ve probably worked into the cost of the instrument anyway, but, at least it’s not a separate bill for you), then why not. You can’t go wrong with something that’s supposed to take care of your instrument more than normal. Protective technology is always great. And I don’t see a downside to it. (If there is a downside, someone please correct me. I know very little about this beside that they exist and that my teacher had one and spoke of its benefits, lol).

Just a handful at this point but not to 55. 60-65 is about the best they can tolerate. But I have marveled at the condition of several instruments uncovered from unheated rooms after 50-75 years...amazing (except for the ones that the mice got to). Lol!

Peter Grey Piano Doctor

Sorry for stupid question, but who can play piano in room with 55F temperature? If you raise the temperature for playing, you create stress equal to humidity swing, no?

The Midwest has some of the biggest seasonal humidity swings known to man.

A properly set up system, and a cover, and a small room humidifier NEAR the piano (in winter dryness) will go a long way towards keeping things stable. O e must STILL tune, voice, and regulate (but this is simply normal good maintenance).

Peter Grey Piano Doctor

I think it's better to control the humidity of the entire house. We are adding a humidifier to the central AV system, it cost like $1000, where the hot air is humidified before pumping out. Imo its a better option and benefits all the occupants at the same time.

Well, yes, and no :-)

I also keep the piano room generally unheated. If it's too cold to play in, even wearing a jumper, then I put some heating on. However if you only have the heat on for a short time then, although the humidity will drop, it won't have time to dry out and stress the piano anywhere as much as if that higher temperature was maintained for many hours.

Also, if you don't heat the whole room but instead direct the heat at the pianist, it is surprising how you can feel quite comfortable while the overall room temperature changes very little. Life is not perfect though and occasionally the piano room is required for other purposes and the room is warmed normally - the piano just has to live with that.

Also, what many are not aware of is the fact that consistent "high" humidification in higher latitudes (where outside temps drop below 20 degrees F x number of days out of the year) moisture migration through standard building materials gradually creates problems. As the moisture reaches the outer part of the insulation and framing members, it freezes. Then, at some point it melts. These repeated cycles year after year (invisible to the homeowner until siding gets replaced) are a known factor in mold buildup and even structural compromise from rot.

This is the reason that when your humidification system is installed, the installers will not set it higher than 35% RH in my latitude area, and very possibly lower in higher latitudes. The owner is free to do what they want, but the installer KNOWS the ramifications of setting it higher than the "formula" allows (yes there is a formula for figuring this out and all HVAC people know it).

So anyway, that's another factor one must consider in this. Turning the heat down is a far better procedure than cranking the humidity up. Another reason for local humidity control vs global humidity control.

There's no "perfect" solution.

Peter Grey Piano Doctor

I think humidifying or dehumidifying the entire room is generally considered better than just using a damp chaser. I use a humidifier much of the year and AC during the summer. One does have to be willing to fill the humidifier once or twice a day.

Dampp Chaser needs less power so it’s cheaper in use. But if you have more wooden instruments in room it might be better option

What!? I fill my Venta once in two days in driest of winter days (RH 10-20% without humidifier), usually it needs water maybe once-twice in a week. You might need a humidifier with bigger tank.

And my room humidifier is just there to help Damp Chaser to do the real work of keeping the piano stable.

Nice. How often You refill Dampp Chaser with working in parallel Venta?

When I lived in the upper Midwest (US), in the dead of winter, using a room humidifier to try and get the room humidity above 30%, the Dampp Chaser system on my grand pianos (installation included the undercover) would typically be calling for a water refill every 12-14 days.

Usually Dampp Chaser lasts weeks between refills, maybe couple of weeks in dry winter time. My Venta gets room humidity to high 30s, but capacity is not enough for 45%. And Venta hygrostat is pretty bad.

That just shows you that a Venta Airwasher is not very effective at humidifying air.

I don't know the size, but it's a very large tank. My need to refill it this often may be because the living room, dining room, kitchen, and hall way are all connected. As I said earlier, I think it's generally agreed that if one chooses between a room dehumidifier and damp chaser, a room dehumidifier is better. I think some might say if one has both it's the humidifier doing the real work. I do know my piano's tuning is very stable. My tech said I could even choose to only tune the piano once/year although I have it tuned twice/year.

Room humidifiers have certain "power", capacity to transfer humidity into air. How much power is needed, depends on your room volume and ventilation. I have a huge room, and total power required during winter would probably require piano-sized humidifier. I have chosen to use more compact unit for visual reasons. The Venta tech is certainly not effective, but it is totally bulletproof with no filters or parts that get dirty and stop working. I had a bunch of ultrasonic humidifiers that lasted two winters before ultrasonic element was clogged. Water heating humidifiers have been better, but consume more energy. With Venta, you get the added benefit of not having dust in the room.

Yes, exactly. But consider this: the more space you are trying to control, the larger the "surface" that's exposed to the environment you're fighting against. A closed up piano has very little surface exposure. A room has more (air and water vapor exchanging under doors, through electrical outlets, chimneys, etc). So the larger the space you're controlling, the more "work" the system will need to do. And the more water it will consume to do it.

Water vapor equalizes very quickly. For example, notice that if you fog up the bathroom mirror when you take a hot shower, the mirror will clear up within minutes of stopping the water and opening a door (because the water vapor quickly moves into the rest of the house until the bathroom has equalized with it).


But there are even more variables. For example, while the desired RH inside is constant, the actual RH isn't. And the greater the differential, the more work the system needs to do. If RH is 45 outside, then the system doesn't need to do anything. If it's 25, then the system is going to work a lot harder.

I don't track how much water the humidifier uses, since it's connected to the water line. But dehumidification works the same in reverse. Since we're running the AC less, I bought a dehumidifier. It has a huge tank, and if it's nice outside then it can go days without dumping. Lately it's been hot but not excessively humid, and I dump it once a day (I'd estimate about 2 gallons). But sometimes it needs to be emptied 2 or 3 times a day.


Anyway, in general, the instant your system has reduced the humidity in the space of interest to the desired level, the outside environment is going to be pushing it back up.

If you need more humidty try one of the aircare products. Yes they require frequent fillings when they are working hard, wicks are about $100/year.

But they will humidify a very large area. Not only benificial to the instrument but to all house occupants as well.

I have clients with Aircare humidifiers and they tell me they are very happy with them.

Peter Grey Piano Doctor

I was thinking more along “crazy humidity”, e.g. Florida, the South, etc. We have humidity swings here, but’s it seasonal and the humidity isn’t the type that’s like the damp suffocating blanket you’ll find in the southern states, so there’s more time for the instrument to adjust.

But maybe even the Midwest’s humidity is enough of a consideration, too.

To be fair, I’ve never owned or used one, so I’m just relaying decades-old hearsay from my teacher.

My understanding is that it is precisely the very large seasonal swings in humidity in the Midwest that are particularly problematic for the pian; the wood components go trough cycles of expanding and contracting. Climates that are fairly stable, but where it is extremely dry or extremely humid year round are challenging, too, but the large fluctuations in humidity between a Midwestern summer and winter are quite hostile for a piano.

Indeed…during my time in Wisconsin, we saw outdoor temperatures ranging from -25 to +100 degrees, Fahrenheit (-32 to +38 Celsius). Many homes didn’t have central air conditioning. It was so dry and so cold in the winters that you couldn’t humidify the room much beyond 30% before condensation would start forming on exterior walls or window casings. There was no such thing as a 50 year old piano in good shape where I lived…

I use humidifiers and dehumidifier for the whole room my upright is in. It is quite a lot of work and a challege during winter in Sweden but you have to. My tuner told me that many of his customers got cracks in their pianos the latest winter.

I live in Sweden too. I have ordered a piano life saver for my new grand piano. The hassle of trying to keep the living room humid enough is juts to much and too noisy. ☺️

You will still probably want to augment the system with a small humidifier NEAR the piano. Also would be good to get a full cover that goes down around the sides as far as you can stand it. And use it whenever the piano is not in use.

Peter Grey Piano Doctor