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Posted By: Starre I finally got a new upright piano. - 10/09/21 01:41 PM
After a few years og agony I got my new piano, bought in Germany and delivered to me in Sweden, it is 124 cm high including wheels.
I had a few brands and models which interested me including Yamaha, but I finally decided on this one:
https://www.thepiano.sg/piano/model/seiler-122-primus
It is waiting in my hallway and will soon be moved into place. I bought it without trying it, so it has been a nervous process, but I have played it a little standing in its box and it sounds promising.
It sounds very close to the youtube videos I used when choosing the brand and model, a bit crazy I know but I could not visit Germany before buying.
In a couple of days i will be able to play it 100%, I am rather nervous...
Is this one with the magnetic action? Those are supposed to be pretty cool.
Posted By: Starre Re: I finally got a new upright piano. - 10/09/21 02:31 PM
Hello, no it is not. I think it is only the biggest upright that can be had with magnetic action but I am not 100% sure.
Posted By: Rickster Re: I finally got a new upright piano. - 10/09/21 02:42 PM
Congratulations on your new Seiler upright piano!

I wish you many years of playing enjoyment with it!

Post pictures here when you can.

Rick
Posted By: Starre Re: I finally got a new upright piano. - 10/09/21 02:52 PM
Thanks Rick! I will try to post pictures later on.
Posted By: Adagiette Re: I finally got a new upright piano. - 10/09/21 09:48 PM
Congratulations on your new piano! Do post pictures when you are all set up! thumb
Posted By: tre corda Re: I finally got a new upright piano. - 10/09/21 11:02 PM
Congratulations on your new Seiler piano!
Posted By: Starre Re: I finally got a new upright piano. - 10/10/21 11:19 AM
Thanks Adagiette and tre corda, tomorrow morning it is time to move it, the hallway is rather cramped so I hope the movers can handle it. It is a big piano for sure, on pictures it looks smaller. I am glad I did not go bigger, it might be the perfect size for my room.
Posted By: MHirsch Re: I finally got a new upright piano. - 10/10/21 08:03 PM
Seiler Primus is a beautiful piano, congrats!
Please post pictures and maybe some recordings?
Posted By: Plowboy Re: I finally got a new upright piano. - 10/10/21 08:30 PM
Congrats! Beautiful piano.
Posted By: MrSh4nkly Re: I finally got a new upright piano. - 10/10/21 09:22 PM
Congratulations. So incredibly happy with my Seiler delivered a month ago. Don't know about Europe, but they're not well known in the U.S. My tuner, who has 40+ years experience, and has tuned for some artists many here and elsewhere would recognize, told me the pin block is among the most sensitive yet steady he's seen. He said, "whatever you do, whether you use me again or not [I most definitely will, he tunes by ear and it's dead on], don't ever let some hack touch it." He was also impressed by the damper system, which is something I also noticed upon playing it the first time. This may sound weird, but I've taken to playing barefoot to savor every nuance. It's like being an oil painter with a full palette to play with.
Posted By: Starre Re: I finally got a new upright piano. - 10/10/21 10:29 PM
Thanks MHirsch and Plowboy. Nice to hear that you are pleased, MrSh4nkly. Seiler is not a very well known brand like Yamaha or Steinway in Europe, a few years ago I was not aware of it. They seem to keep a low profile.
In my country few people know the brand, but tuners and such seem to know it quite well.
Posted By: MrSh4nkly Re: I finally got a new upright piano. - 10/10/21 10:45 PM
Originally Posted by Starre
...tuners and such seem to know it quite well.
Nice to know, thanks.
Posted By: Starre Re: I finally got a new upright piano. - 10/11/21 03:35 PM
The piano was successfully moved into place this early morning at 7.00 am, the movers were careful and understanding but I had to help them. At first in the morning I thought it sounded a bit sharp and brittle so I went to work with a question mark.
When I got home one hour ago it sounded better, this is really a beast of a piano. It sounds very powerful and has a little heavier keyboard than medium I think, but I come from a digital piano and is used to that so I have to adapt.
It is beautiful and the perfect size for my room, even the mover guys thought it was a good placement and fit. I bought an air dehumidifier today to help the very humid weather we have here at the moment, I really want to take care of it.
Posted By: tre corda Re: I finally got a new upright piano. - 10/11/21 05:19 PM
Climate control is a good idea as it keeps the piano healthy. Yes you will have quite an adjustment moving from a digital piano to an upright accoustic.Perhaps you may feel you cannot play softly for example.All this will be part of the adjustment. Learning to play loudly or softly on an accoustic piano will be part of your musical journey.The piano will take time to settle down.New pianos will often need several tunings a year and perhaps some occasional touch up voicing in the treble.

It would be great to see a picture of your actual piano.
Posted By: MrSh4nkly Re: I finally got a new upright piano. - 10/11/21 09:12 PM
Originally Posted by Starre
...I come from a digital piano and is used to that so I have to adapt.
I started with a digital hammer action keyboard this summer after a 30-year layoff from an acoustic upbringing. It took about two weeks to build up from the digital to the action on the acoustic I got a month ago. Trills and other ornaments are taking longer, but this was expected.
Originally Posted by Starre
It sounds very powerful and has a little heavier keyboard than medium I think....
Same with my Seiler. Glad that's the case, so as to not be surprised by heavier action if asked to play elsewhere. Our technique will adapt with lots of practice, and we'll be able to play anywhere.
Posted By: Starre Re: I finally got a new upright piano. - 10/12/21 11:08 AM
I looked inside the piano and you can easily see why this is a rather expensive instrument, it looks very nice and certainly better than a Kawai K serie or Yamaha U serie.
Posted By: MrSh4nkly Re: I finally got a new upright piano. - 10/12/21 03:59 PM
Originally Posted by Starre
I looked inside the piano and you can easily see why this is a rather expensive instrument, it looks very nice and certainly better than a Kawai K serie or Yamaha U serie.

Seiler at work (3-part series):



Posted By: tre corda Re: I finally got a new upright piano. - 10/12/21 10:51 PM
MrSh4kly
Congratulations on your Seiler as well.Perhaps if you post some photos of your grand,Starre will do the same.Thanks for the video of the Seiler factory.I do wonder how old the video is
though.
Posted By: dogperson Re: I finally got a new upright piano. - 10/12/21 11:16 PM
Originally Posted by tre corda
MrSh4kly
Congratulations on your Seiler as well.Perhaps if you post some photos of your grand,Starre will do the same.Thanks for the video of the Seiler factory.I do wonder how old the video is
though.


2012 per You tube video data
Posted By: tre corda Re: I finally got a new upright piano. - 10/12/21 11:22 PM
OK thanks dogsperson! 😊
Posted By: MrSh4nkly Re: I finally got a new upright piano. - 10/12/21 11:41 PM
Originally Posted by tre corda
MrSh4kly
Congratulations on your Seiler as well.Perhaps if you post some photos of your grand,Starre will do the same.Thanks for the video of the Seiler factory.I do wonder how old the video is though.
Thank you very much, will do sometime over the weekend. Too beat going into a work deadline for the time being. I believe the video is even older than the 2012 YT date. It has Ursula Seiler as the owner, yet she sold the business to Samick in October, 2008. The video looks like it was made in the 70s or 80s based on everybody's hairstyles. Wondering if the economic contraction going on in 2008 triggered a need to sell. Ursula loved running the company based on everything I've heard and read.
Posted By: tre corda Re: I finally got a new upright piano. - 10/13/21 12:28 AM
Originally Posted by MrSh4nkly
Originally Posted by tre corda
MrSh4kly
Congratulations on your Seiler as well.Perhaps if you post some photos of your grand,Starre will do the same.Thanks for the video of the Seiler factory.I do wonder how old the video is though.
Thank you very much, will do sometime over the weekend. Too beat going into a work deadline for the time being. I believe the video is even older than the 2012 YT date. It has Ursula Seiler as the owner, yet she sold the business to Samick in October, 2008. The video looks like it was made in the 70s or 80s based on everybody's hairstyles. Wondering if the economic contraction going on in 2008 triggered a need to sell. Ursula loved running the company based on everything I've heard and read.
Oh that is interesting! So that is Ursula Seiler who owned Seiler
after her husband died.I think they said her daughter was playing the Chopin Ballade? Perhaps I will listen to parts of the video again.Yes that behive hairstyle really stuck out!
I remember Samick bought Seiler.It seems they still make some instruments in Germany.(I think some of the uprights and grands are made there )some of the grands are partially made there or use German parts.I am sure all to a very high standard.
Posted By: MHirsch Re: I finally got a new upright piano. - 10/14/21 09:16 AM
Originally Posted by tre corda
It seems they still make some instruments in Germany.
If I'm not mistaken, "Seiler Primus" is 100% made in Germany, Kitzingen. "Johannes Seiler" is made in Indonesia. "Eduard Seiler" is made in Kitzingen, but using parts from Asia.
Long story short, "Seiler Primus" is a great instrument.
Recently I was also shopping for a new German upright and played a lot of Schimmel, Seiler and Sauter.
Posted By: tre corda Re: I finally got a new upright piano. - 10/14/21 02:31 PM
Originally Posted by MHirsch
Originally Posted by tre corda
It seems they still make some instruments in Germany.
If I'm not mistaken, "Seiler Primus" is 100% made in Germany, Kitzingen. "Johannes Seiler" is made in Indonesia. "Eduard Seiler" is made in Kitzingen, but using parts from Asia.
Long story short, "Seiler Primus" is a great instrument.
Recently I was also shopping for a new German upright and played a lot of Schimmel, Seiler and Sauter.
Yes of course I know all 3 of these companies make pianos in Germany even those which have which have major Asian investors.With Seiler the SE models are totally made there.The same with the Schimmel Konzert and Classic series.Grotrian still also makes pianos there.
Posted By: tre corda Re: I finally got a new upright piano. - 10/14/21 02:35 PM
MHirsch
So is your Sauter Carus 122 your new piano?
Posted By: MHirsch Re: I finally got a new upright piano. - 10/14/21 04:24 PM
Originally Posted by tre corda
MHirsch
So is your Sauter Carus 122 your new piano?
Yes, it is!
Posted By: RayR3004 Re: I finally got a new upright piano. - 10/14/21 05:40 PM
Congratulations on your new piano. The Seiler is a great instrument. Wishing you many happy years with it!!! Enjoy!!
Posted By: Beemer Re: I finally got a new upright piano. - 10/14/21 06:22 PM
Congratulations from another owner of German craftsmanship! Hope to hear you playing it in one of the recital groups here.
Ian
Posted By: Starre Re: I finally got a new upright piano. - 10/14/21 06:34 PM
I am sure Sauter is nice and Blüthner too, many great instruments to choose from. One question, what do you think is the ideal distance between the wall and back side of a upright piano? I have no room for a free standing piano.
Posted By: tre corda Re: I finally got a new upright piano. - 10/14/21 09:14 PM
My piano is about 5 inches from the wall.I think a piano sounds at its best when it's not too near the wall.
Posted By: Pianolance Re: I finally got a new upright piano. - 10/14/21 09:18 PM
You only need a few inches. Maybe 4-6. Or 10 - 15 cm.
Posted By: MHirsch Re: I finally got a new upright piano. - 10/15/21 08:18 AM
Originally Posted by Starre
One question, what do you think is the ideal distance between the wall and back side of a upright piano?
Each room's acoustics is unique, so you'll have to find out yourself. I hope your Seiler has casters :-)
As a rule of thumb, 10 - 20 cm from the back wall, as mentioned above, and min 40 cm on the sides.
Posted By: Starre Re: I finally got a new upright piano. - 10/15/21 08:28 AM
Thanks Ray! I have a little less than 10 cm (4 inches) right now, I will try a little more. I have 4 wheels on it so it is not that hard to move!
Posted By: MrSh4nkly Re: I finally got a new upright piano. - 10/17/21 08:46 AM
Originally Posted by tre corda
MrSh4kly
Perhaps if you post some photos of your grand,Starre will do the same.
2011 was the first year Samick made Seiler-designed pianos in Indonesia. Per the serial number, my ED-168, shown below, was the 43rd of that Indonesian-made line produced that year. According to the dealer, it was not pre-owned, sat on his floor for a year, and in various warehouses all the time before that. Based on the hammer condition, I tend to believe him. The technician who tuned and voiced it in my home had me assist him with moving the action so he could tweak my sostenuto rod, and the action does have Renner's name on it. It is very well-regulated, a bit on the heavy side, and feels wonderful to play. Starre, the OP, has the real deal, a genuine German-made Seiler, and it's brand new, so in that sense I'm a bit jelly. My only consolation is having been set back $16K instead of $30K or worse.

Per Larry Fine's Piano Buyer Model and Price Supplement, the SMP on a new polished ebony ED-168 like mine is $28.5K while the SMP for the German-made polished ebony ES-168 is a whopping $74.5K. The SMP on OP's SE-122 is $30.5K:

https://www.pianobuyer.com/piano-buyer-model-price-supplement/

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Posted By: Starre Re: I finally got a new upright piano. - 10/17/21 03:15 PM
Here is a picture as promised, this is using my iphone so it is not spectacular, but something to start with.
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That grand piano looks nice! Hope you are pleased, MrSh4nkly.
Posted By: tre corda Re: I finally got a new upright piano. - 10/17/21 04:51 PM
Starre and MrSh4nkly,
Thank you for showing us your pianos! Both beautiful!
I like the polished ebony with pianos too.It always looks more formal but smart. Congratulations again and best wishes.

MHirsch
It would be great if you posted a picture of your Sauter 122 as well.We would love to see it!
Posted By: Starre Re: I finally got a new upright piano. - 10/17/21 06:55 PM
With my positioning against a hard concrete wall the treble is too bright/powerful with the reflections so I put some thin styrofoam plates against the wall behind the piano. It is much better with them in place.
Posted By: MrSh4nkly Re: I finally got a new upright piano. - 10/17/21 08:16 PM
Originally Posted by Starre
That grand piano looks nice! Hope you are pleased, MrSh4nkly.
Your Seiler is gorgeous, hope you are too.

I couldn't be more pleased. For $16K, my tuner-tech said I got really lucky (for once, after buying an old home built in the 50s from a flipper who basically put lipstick on a money pig). I thought there might be something wrong with my ED-168, but the tech looked it over thoroughly and said it's in great shape. There were the few, aforementioned issues that were easily fixed. It was pretty bright when it arrived, so he took the edge off with some very shallow needling on the hammer strike points. The sustain is to die for. With the dampers raised, if Middle C is played as sharply as I dare, it's more than 30 seconds before the note can't be heard anymore (timed it with phone stopwatch app today).

Working on a Rameau piece, La Vilageoise ("The Villager"...there's no double-L in the French title of the piece in the Bärenreiter urtext edition, which I found odd, but maybe the French didn't yet use double-Ls in 1700?), which is an alluring, melancholy rondo full of all kinds of savory ornaments (picture a nearly desitute villager, going about his or her day, eking out a living, yet unable to not pause from toiling long enough to admire the light on the landscape; thankfully, Bärenreiter includes Rameau's very own ornament table for the student's learning pleasure), all of which are to be played on the beat, and rich, contrapuntal hooks and licks, that I'll record and post on this forum once it's ready, since a user in another thread asked me to record and play something (after a 30-year layoff, hence not quite yet). I noticed most of the performers on YouTube leave many of the ornaments out, and/or make up their own, which plenty of fine musicians say is acceptable as this was common practice among performers during the Baroque era. However, it's sad, here, because the piece with its many, varied ornaments the way Rameau wrote it is a masterpiece in varied, mood-enhancing articulation.

Pardon the digression...the reason I brought up this piece is to point out the resonance Seiler gives it. The damper pedal is only sparingly needed, and barely a hair when needed. Defintely not on the ornaments. With zero pedal, and a slight yet deliberate wrist raise into the final note on the keybed held for its full length, the ornaments come off crisply with a hum you can feel in your chest. This is was what I believe Ravel was going for with the repeating ornaments in his Prelude for Le Tombeau de Couperin. (He must have loved Rameau in addition to Couperin, because the same, 4th octave, D#-F# minor third with an ornament on the F# found in the Prelude is in La Vilageoise, only the ornament is slightly different.) Years ago I found this by no means easy to pull off cleanly, convincingly and consistently. Certainly the Renner action helps, but Seiler magically figured out a way to bring out the drone in that hum.

Originally Posted by tre corda
Starre and MrSh4nkly,
Thank you for showing us your pianos! Both beautiful!
I like the polished ebony with pianos too.It always looks more formal but smart. Congratulations again and best wishes.
You're welcome, and thanks again.
Posted By: MHirsch Re: I finally got a new upright piano. - 10/18/21 07:24 AM
Originally Posted by tre corda
MHirsch
It would be great if you posted a picture of your Sauter 122 as well.We would love to see it!
Here it is.
No idea how to make piano pictures right - the polish reflects like everything, so didn't manage to get a clear picture...

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Posted By: Starre Re: I finally got a new upright piano. - 10/18/21 11:47 AM
Looks nice MrHirsch, how would you describe its sound?
Posted By: RayR3004 Re: I finally got a new upright piano. - 10/18/21 12:44 PM
All the pianos are beautiful. Best of luck to all. I hope you're enjoying!!!
Posted By: MrSh4nkly Re: I finally got a new upright piano. - 10/18/21 12:46 PM
Originally Posted by MHirsch
Here it is.
That gold hardware is sweet. What score is that? It looks like it would be enjoyable to play.
Posted By: MHirsch Re: I finally got a new upright piano. - 10/18/21 02:10 PM
Originally Posted by Starre
Looks nice MrHirsch, how would you describe its sound?
Thank you!

It's hard to describe a piano sound, but I can try.
It really has a lot of volume. Yet it's crystal clear. But has a lot of (very clear and precise) overtones and resonance. And it's easy to control the dynamics.
While playing, I start to listen to the sound and then forget what i was actually going to play smile
Posted By: MHirsch Re: I finally got a new upright piano. - 10/18/21 02:13 PM
Originally Posted by MrSh4nkly
What score is that? It looks like it would be enjoyable to play.
It's October from The Seasons by Tchaikovsky. Just started to learn.
Posted By: MrSh4nkly Re: I finally got a new upright piano. - 10/18/21 02:29 PM
Originally Posted by MHirsch
It's October from The Seasons by Tchaikovsky. Just started to learn.
Nice. Perfect timing. I love autumn. Will have a listen.
Posted By: tre corda Re: I finally got a new upright piano. - 10/18/21 04:17 PM
MHirsh
Very nice! Another elegant looking piano in polished ebony!
Posted By: j&j Re: I finally got a new upright piano. - 10/18/21 07:55 PM
Congratulations on delivery of your new Seiler. I was just talking to my piano technician this morning, (I got my piano tuned!!) and the acoustic and digital piano market has boomed since the pandemic, inventory is way down and shipping has hit bottle necks. I think ordering a new piano without having tried it first may be the new normal.

Great things like new pianos are worth the wait.

There is some shortages on piano parts too. 😒
Posted By: tre corda Re: I finally got a new upright piano. - 10/18/21 10:13 PM
Well I count myself lucky then as I have my older stock Schimmel upright all lined up.I have played it, loved it, so all ready to be sent.I should receive it by Christmas.
Posted By: MHirsch Re: I finally got a new upright piano. - 10/19/21 07:12 AM
Originally Posted by tre corda
Well I count myself lucky then as I have my older stock Schimmel upright all lined up.I have played it, loved it, so all ready to be sent.I should receive it by Christmas.
Nice! Which one of them is it? Classic Line 123?
Posted By: supersport Re: I finally got a new upright piano. - 10/19/21 09:56 PM
Congratulations! Hope you enjoy it very much.
Posted By: tre corda Re: I finally got a new upright piano. - 10/20/21 12:49 AM
I tried a Schimmel Classic 169 which I really liked.I am just not sure I want another grand.More space in that room would be nice.Through my technician I found an almost new Schimmel Concert Tradition132 upright.Actually a piano bought during the Pandemic.So, lightly used by a beginner.The piano has been completely checked by an independent technician.

So a lovely tone, a powerful tone if needed.(but can easly play play softly.It sounds more like a grand.The Renner action is excellent with a very fast repetition.It is easy to achieve.
It was not as expensive as C169 grand but still more expensive than I would liked to have spent.I have tried a K125 but prefer the 132. It still has the BVK sticker on it.(so does the new grand at the dealer)
So I am so thrilled and cannot wait! 😊

We are moving so the lady has agreed to store the piano for the time being.So a lot happening at the moment.
Posted By: Starre Re: I finally got a new upright piano. - 10/20/21 10:11 AM
Thanks, J&J and supersport. I am looking for a tuner but it seems to take time to get in contact. I removed the plates behind the piano and moved it out a little more. I would prefer a softer sound but I will first tune the piano and then experiment with some kind of sound damping plates, the Styrofoam ones are not very effective.
Posted By: kre Re: I finally got a new upright piano. - 10/20/21 10:24 AM
Originally Posted by Starre
I would prefer a softer sound but I will first tune the piano and then experiment with some kind of sound damping plates, the Styrofoam ones are not very effective.

Styrofoam has nonexistent acoustical properties. Try real acoustical panels (usually compacted glassfibre), they at absorb higher frequencies well.
Posted By: MrSh4nkly Re: I finally got a new upright piano. - 10/20/21 11:54 AM
Originally Posted by Starre
I would prefer a softer sound....
A good tech can quickly voice that down with some light needling on the hammer strike points, preferably one with years of experience and a lot of good reviews. Made a huge difference on mine. Asked the one I hired to listen to a YT video for my model, the same one Carey posted in another thread, and he made it happen in less than an hour.
Posted By: Carey Re: I finally got a new upright piano. - 10/20/21 04:20 PM
Originally Posted by MrSh4nkly
Originally Posted by Starre
I would prefer a softer sound....
A good tech can quickly voice that down with some light needling on the hammer strike points, preferably one with years of experience and a lot of good reviews. Made a huge difference on mine. Asked the one I hired to listen to a YT video for my model, the same one Carey posted in another thread, and he made it happen in less than an hour.
Amazing. Does your experienced tuner ever travel to Arizona? ha
Posted By: Starre Re: I finally got a new upright piano. - 10/20/21 04:27 PM
I booked a piano tuner/tech today and he is visiting me next week. I hope it is a good one and who can give some advice and also tell me if my piano is ok or not.
Posted By: MrSh4nkly Re: I finally got a new upright piano. - 10/20/21 04:36 PM
Originally Posted by Carey
Does your experienced tuner ever travel to Arizona?
Doubt it, as that would be a more than 2,000 mile trip. If it helps, I found him by searching for Piano Tuners on Expertise.com.
Posted By: tre corda Re: I finally got a new upright piano. - 10/20/21 06:36 PM
Originally Posted by Starre
With my positioning against a hard concrete wall the treble is too bright/powerful with the reflections so I put some thin styrofoam plates against the wall behind the piano. It is much better with them in place.
Starre
Some say hang a tapestry on the wall behind an upright piano
or even a piece carpet to absorb the sound. I have never found I need to do that with an upright.A carpet on the floor will absorb some of the sound. If the upper notes seem very bright
the technician could do some touch up voicing the next time he tunes your piano for you.Pianos of this calibre usually do not need much done when they arrive.Many arrive in tune or almost in tune.They do need to settle down to their environment however.You need to play it as much as possible.as well.

If you have previously only been practicing on an a digital piano this could also be a problem for you in getting used to play softer.(without a volume control button)

Do you have neighbour's close by that you are afraid of bothering?
Posted By: Carey Re: I finally got a new upright piano. - 10/20/21 07:14 PM
Originally Posted by MrSh4nkly
Originally Posted by Carey
Does your experienced tuner ever travel to Arizona?
Doubt it, as that would be a more than 2,000 mile trip. If it helps, I found him by searching for Piano Tuners on Expertise.com.
I figured it might be about that far. Was hoping that he might have some close relatives out here. ha
Posted By: Starre Re: I finally got a new upright piano. - 10/20/21 08:53 PM
Tre corda, from the beginning when I was 6 I had a piano, later on a grand, but many years later I got a digital piano just to keep my skill up and now I am back to a piano again. I am an educated pianist but not professionally active since I work with other things.
The neigbours are not a problem, they like when I play. But when I play with force I think it gets too loud and bright/hard as it is, I will discuss this with the piano tech and use his knowledge. I would love to have a grand piano but I do not have the space for it and also it would probably cost more than I want to spend anyway.
Posted By: MrSh4nkly Re: I finally got a new upright piano. - 10/20/21 10:05 PM
Originally Posted by Starre
But when I play with force I think it gets too loud and bright/hard....
My sense is this is intentional. It's much easier (and less permanent) to soften the hammers than it is to brighten them. When a new piano is delivered this way the owner (or dealer) can have a tech soften the hammers a little or a lot, according to taste. If you had been able to buy your SE-122 from a local dealer, this probably would have been done for you already.
Posted By: tre corda Re: I finally got a new upright piano. - 10/21/21 05:08 AM
Originally Posted by Starre
Tre corda, from the beginning when I was 6 I had a piano, later on a grand, but many years later I got a digital piano just to keep my skill up and now I am back to a piano again. I am an educated pianist but not professionally active since I work with other things.
The neigbours are not a problem, they like when I play. But when I play with force I think it gets too loud and bright/hard as it is, I will discuss this with the piano tech and use his knowledge. I would love to have a grand piano but I do not have the space for it and also it would probably cost more than I want to spend anyway.
I am sorry I did not mean you were an uneducated pianist.In North America at(least if not other first word countries) there are a number of people who are good pianists and are fairly advanced have always practiced on digital pianos.Accoustic pianos may then present certain challenges.
Even very advanced pianists who have trained mainly on digital pianos may find it difficult to control the dynamics from the keyboard.A true uni corda pedal can help but we do not get those on uprights and of course you should not have to rely on the soft pedal.So these digitally trained, educated, pianists do sometimes have these difficulties on buying their first accoustic piano.However as you have just told me that is not you.
The problem can only be the accoustics in your room.I do not doubt the quality of your piano or your playing ability.
So you can move your piano to another room or you can voice your room.Speaking to your technician about the problem is a good idea.Voicing out the brighter notes will help.A more mellow tone will not seem so loud.
Posted By: tre corda Re: I finally got a new upright piano. - 10/21/21 05:23 AM
Starre, this may just help.

https://www.pianobuyer.com/article/ten-ways-to-voice-a-room/
Posted By: Starre Re: I finally got a new upright piano. - 10/21/21 07:34 AM
Thanks tre corda I will have a look.
Posted By: MHirsch Re: I finally got a new upright piano. - 10/21/21 08:23 AM
Originally Posted by tre corda
I have tried a K125 but prefer the 132. It still has the BVK sticker on it.(so does the new grand at the dealer)
Great choice! Konzert line is better than the Classic in every way...
Posted By: j&j Re: I finally got a new upright piano. - 10/23/21 07:16 PM
We sort of glossed over this. Is this your first acoustic? If so, it will take you a little longer to get used to a big upright. Big uprights can sound huge. Practice playing pianissimo every day. You have a full dynamic range on your piano. Teach yourself how to control it. There’s a ton of info on the Adult Beginners Forum. Lots of the topics are anything but beginners.
Posted By: j&j Re: I finally got a new upright piano. - 10/23/21 10:49 PM
Having attended numerous piano recitals, the major faults for the beginners is they play too fast and too loud. Others, unfortunately, get butterflies and can’t play.
Posted By: Starre Re: I finally got a new upright piano. - 10/27/21 02:58 PM
Today my piano was tuned and the piano tuner said it was good but needs intonation, he will fix this when tuning it the next time in 6 months. I think I can relax now smile.
Posted By: MrSh4nkly Re: I finally got a new upright piano. - 10/27/21 03:18 PM
What did he mean by "intonation?" Did he mean you have to wait 6 months to have it voiced down?
Posted By: Starre Re: I finally got a new upright piano. - 10/27/21 04:32 PM
Yes voiced down is what he meant, I guess it could be done earlier but since the piano is new I should play on it for the hammers to settle in.
What do you think?
Posted By: MrSh4nkly Re: I finally got a new upright piano. - 10/27/21 04:42 PM
I see, thank you. Sounds like you're in good hands. He could have done it with the tuning, charged you, and you (or I) wouldn't have known better. Shows integrity.

Six months it is.
Posted By: tre corda Re: I finally got a new upright piano. - 10/28/21 02:51 AM
Originally Posted by Starre
Yes voiced down is what he meant, I guess it could be done earlier but since the piano is new I should play on it for the hammers to settle in.
What do you think?
I thought the pianos were prepped and voiced at the factory .From what I have heard a technician cannot fundamentally change the voicing of a new piano.The voicing the piano initially had will return.Perhaps he means that in time the piano will settle down.He may do some touch up voicing, that sort of thing and hopefully some preparation of the piano.

Everything will be changing for your piano while it settles down. The soundboard may shrink or swell, the new strings will stretch, parts may move.Many European pianos arrive in North America still in tune, however even they need a few tunings to stabilize sometimes.Sometimes people perceive a slightly out of tune piano as harsh or even bright, when in fact the piano just needs a good tuning.
Normally a month is given for the first tuning.After being tuned about 3 times it should hold its tuning well.Tuning somehow refers more to the term intonation than voicing.
Posted By: kre Re: I finally got a new upright piano. - 10/28/21 08:50 AM
Originally Posted by Starre
Yes voiced down is what he meant, I guess it could be done earlier but since the piano is new I should play on it for the hammers to settle in.
What do you think?

This is sounds good to me. The hammer felts needs to be broken in, so play it as much as possible and let the tech voice the piano after several months of playing. Voicing new piano is normal procedure in my opinion.
Posted By: Starre Re: I finally got a new upright piano. - 10/28/21 08:58 AM
Yes the tuner said that often pianos are delivered "as is" and then voiced to taste. My impression from the tuner was that it is not a problem but maybe it is sometimes? I will just use the piano and hope it will be solved. When using the middle pedal (practice with damped sound) the brightness/hardness disappeared so it should be the hammers causing it.
Posted By: dogperson Re: I finally got a new upright piano. - 10/28/21 09:43 AM
Originally Posted by Starre
Yes the tuner said that often pianos are delivered "as is" and then voiced to taste. My impression from the tuner was that it is not a problem but maybe it is sometimes? I will just use the piano and hope it will be solved. When using the middle pedal (practice with damped sound) the brightness/hardness disappeared so it should be the hammers causing it.


To voice a piano is not unusual after delivery. In fact, Kawai has a master technician do an in-home voicing for every new SK. Not to worry! Voicing will not change a Yamaha to Kawai, or vice versa, but it will make the piano’s own voice improved.

I do agree with playing it a lot and letting it settle to its new environment. All will be well
Posted By: kre Re: I finally got a new upright piano. - 10/28/21 10:44 AM
Originally Posted by Starre
Yes the tuner said that often pianos are delivered "as is" and then voiced to taste. My impression from the tuner was that it is not a problem but maybe it is sometimes?

Certainly not a problem, different acoustics require different voicing. Factory prep might be sound good with new hammers and showroom acoustics, but things can change.
Posted By: tre corda Re: I finally got a new upright piano. - 10/28/21 05:12 PM
Originally Posted by Starre
Yes the tuner said that often pianos are delivered "as is" and then voiced to taste. My impression from the tuner was that it is not a problem but maybe it is sometimes? I will just use the piano and hope it will be solved. When using the middle pedal (practice with damped sound) the brightness/hardness disappeared so it should be the hammers causing it.
Your Seiler has had a substantial factory prep according to this article so they should not have to radically change the voicing, perhaps just taking the hard edges off.Read the whole article.It covers the importance of having a good technician (highly qualified) to spend a few hours prepping the piano as well. Read the section on "high end pianos." Seiler SE is regarded as such in North America.(even upright pianos) If you
buy a high end piano your technician (not just a tuner) becomes your best friend.
Because your piano arrived straight from the crate it may have need of attention.(it not have any dealer prep and has not had much in the way of a number of tunings)Make sure the piano is not near an indoor heating vent.If the heating comes from the floor you will definitely need a good carpet at least for the instrument to stand on.
You may not need the instrument as a concert pianist would but I am sure you would like a €25,000 piano to not play like a
€10,000 piano.

https://www.pianobuyer.com/article/dealer-preparation-of-new-pianos/
Posted By: Starre Re: I finally got a new upright piano. - 10/28/21 08:04 PM
Thanks tre corda for the link and your concern. To keep my sanity I trust the tuner/tech and I have a 3 year warranty from the dealer. Here in Europe the prices are lower also so I did not pay that much as you write at all.
Posted By: tre corda Re: I finally got a new upright piano. - 10/28/21 10:20 PM
Here in Europe the prices are lower also so I did not pay that much as you write at all.[/quote by Starre]

Yes it is surprising when I look online the Seiler SE uprights are far more modestly priced in Europe than quite a few other European pianos.Schimmel, and August Forster are much more expensive over there.Sauter "non Masterclass" seems to fall in between at times. Confusing???
One of our members bought a Seiler SE 122 privatlely for a real bargain price.That however is rare over here.(not that you often find Seiler SE models) Perhaps it is as that poster suggests,due to a lack of marketing by Seiler..

Well you have a great piano Starre, so I am sure everything will work out in time.Here is a thread in the sub forum about Windjammer and his almost new Seiler upright.

http://forum.pianoworld.com/ubbthreads.php/topics/3093578/my-new-seiler-se-122.html#Post3093578
Posted By: Starre Re: I finally got a new upright piano. - 10/30/21 01:19 PM
Today I have played alot and getting to know it more, I would say the action is a bit lighter than medium over all and getting about medium in the bass range, it is very responsive and exact. I keep the relative humidity at 45% since I believe that is a good level.
I have ordered some acoustic foam panels shaped with small pyramids to try since I think it will be good to reduce the sound level and also my neighbours might appreciate that.
Posted By: MrSh4nkly Re: I finally got a new upright piano. - 10/30/21 03:26 PM
Originally Posted by Starre
Today I have played alot and getting to know it more, I would say the action is a bit lighter than medium over all and getting about medium in the bass range, it is very responsive and exact. I keep the relative humidity at 45% since I believe that is a good level.
I have ordered some acoustic foam panels shaped with small pyramids to try since I think it will be good to reduce the sound level and also my neighbours might appreciate that.
45% is a great relative humidity level based on everything I've read. I'm stuck with 55% +/- 5% for the time being. Anecdotally, I believe there is something to what your tuner/tech said, per your earlier post in this thread, about letting the hammers "settle in." As aforementioned, my Seiler was built in 2011, but it's not pre-owned. The more I play it, the deeper and mellower the sound gets. It's as if the shoulders are expanding and becoming more shock absorbent the more the hammers are played, maybe? Also, the action doesn't feel nearly as stiff as when it arrived two months ago; however, at least some of that is surely a result of my technique having adjusted to it after many hours of practice.

Looking forward to 2 area rugs with size-matched, 1/4" thick felt padding to go under them that should be here within a few days. A smaller one for under the piano and a much larger one for the rest of the room. Will let the forum know what effect these have, if any, on the sound.
Posted By: Starre Re: I finally got a new upright piano. - 10/30/21 04:09 PM
It will affect the sound for sure. I use a humidifier right now and control humidity with a professional instrument I got yesterday to make sure it is correct, my old one was way off according to my piano tuner and it is now in the bin.
Posted By: MrSh4nkly Re: I finally got a new upright piano. - 10/30/21 05:20 PM
Originally Posted by Starre
It will affect the sound for sure. I use a humidifier right now and control humidity with a professional instrument I got yesterday to make sure it is correct, my old one was way off according to my piano tuner and it is now in the bin.
Good to know, thank you. Looks like this is my next project.
Posted By: MrSh4nkly Re: I finally got a new upright piano. - 10/30/21 06:31 PM
Originally Posted by Starre
It will affect the sound for sure.
You're right! The rugs haven't arrived yet, but the felt pads to go under them just did (figured felt would be good, since it's used to dampen sound in pianos), so I threw those down and whoa what a difference. Way more than expected. I can play with the top up and without the una corda now. So happy.
Posted By: dogperson Re: I finally got a new upright piano. - 10/30/21 07:40 PM
Originally Posted by MrSh4nkly
Originally Posted by Starre
It will affect the sound for sure.
You're right! The rugs haven't arrived yet, but the felt pads to go under them just did (figured felt would be good, since it's used to dampen sound in pianos), so I threw those down and whoa what a difference. Way more than expected. I can play with the top up and without the una corda now. So happy.

Great news that the rug pad worked out so well for you! Cheers 😊
Posted By: pianoloverus Re: I finally got a new upright piano. - 10/30/21 08:14 PM
Originally Posted by MrSh4nkly
As aforementioned, my Seiler was built in 2011, but it's not pre-owned. The more I play it, the deeper and mellower the sound gets. It's as if the shoulders are expanding and becoming more shock absorbent the more the hammers are played, maybe? Also, the action doesn't feel nearly as stiff as when it arrived two months ago; however, at least some of that is surely a result of my technique having adjusted to it after many hours of practice.
As far as I know pianos get brighter the longer they're played(of course, this assumes no voicing), and the part of the hammer where the string strikes compacts more and more(the opposite of expanding). This doesn't mean you can't like sound more than earlier. It may be possible that something in the piano's environment is making the piano mellower despite the hammers compacting, but I don't know what that could be. Maybe another poster will expand on this.
Posted By: An Old Square Re: I finally got a new upright piano. - 10/30/21 08:55 PM
Originally Posted by pianoloverus
Originally Posted by MrSh4nkly
As aforementioned, my Seiler was built in 2011, but it's not pre-owned. The more I play it, the deeper and mellower the sound gets. It's as if the shoulders are expanding and becoming more shock absorbent the more the hammers are played, maybe? Also, the action doesn't feel nearly as stiff as when it arrived two months ago; however, at least some of that is surely a result of my technique having adjusted to it after many hours of practice.
As far as I know pianos get brighter the longer they're played(of course, this assumes no voicing), and the part of the hammer where the string strikes compacts more and more(the opposite of expanding). This doesn't mean you can't like sound more than earlier. It may be possible that something in the piano's environment is making the piano mellower despite the hammers compacting, but I don't know what that could be. Maybe another poster will expand on this.

Just guessing here.

One possibility: the original factory hammers were A. made from felt that's on the softer side of the curve, and B. never had a tech properly sand away the shoulders surrounding the strike point. (Many new hammers have excess felt in the strike point plane that *really really* needs to be removed before the owner begins playing, but frequently never is.)

In cases like that what could happen is that as the piano gets used and the strike point(s) proper compacts into the hammer, the excess felt on the shoulders in the strike point plane "fold inwards", especially on harder blows. In situations like that, the inner sides of the (shoulda been sanded off) strike point plane shoulders (barely) contact the strings a millisecond before AND after the proper strike points hit the strings, muting and softening (to differing degrees).

Visualize throwing a rubber ball at a wall and how it bounces back. Then visualize what happens if the ball has just barely to brush by some fabric to the sides just before and just after hitting the wall. Energy gets absorbed by the fabric and changes the balls behavior.

The above cannot happen when the excess strike plane shoulder felt is removed, and very unlikely to occur on harder felts, even with excess felt in the strike point plane.

What you have may have *nothing* to do with this, but to be sure, a tech good at voicing could just look at them closely to see whether that may be a contributing cause, and fix it if it is. The time frame, 10 years, is about right, assuming frequent playing.

If you want it fixed that is.

De gustibus non est disputandum.

(The exact same issue occurs pretty frequently with ANCIENT poor quality very soft hammers that are near the end of life, and have never ever been shaped. Softest mushy tone possible. BUT, when properly shaped, LO, the hard compacted felt on the strike point (now hitting the strings properly) is nice and hard, the tone changes hugely, and voila, like a different piano. But that's not your situation. I'm probably wrong this has anything to do with it anyway.)
Posted By: MrSh4nkly Re: I finally got a new upright piano. - 10/30/21 09:21 PM
Originally Posted by dogperson
Great news that the rug pad worked out so well for you! Cheers 😊
Thanks, dogperson. My Indo-Seiler sounds so good now. The Rameau piece I've been working on is almost there, so within about a week I'll record it on a Zoom H6 so anybody who wants to can hear it. The ornaments in the piece come off so deeply and richly I keep playing them over and over again to hear (and feel) the resonance the Membrator soundboard generates through the air. Will post it another recent thread, where the OP was trying to decide between an ED-168 and other brands/models, when it's ready.

Originally Posted by pianoloverus
As far as I know pianos get brighter the longer they're played(of course, this assumes no voicing), and the part of the hammer where the string strikes compacts more and more(the opposite of expanding).
That's my understanding, too; however, I've heard or read (don't recall where, after seeing so much material on voicing and what-not over the last two months it's all lost in a haze) that if the hammer shoulders were deep-needled at the factory during prep, the hammers will expand somewhat once a piano that hasn't been played much out of the factory is finally played a lot by the initial owner, thus becoming a little less dense at first. Whether that's true, I don't know.
Posted By: Starre Re: I finally got a new upright piano. - 11/04/21 07:43 PM
I got the panels a few hours ago and after some fitting it is in place. A massive difference, now it sound more mellow and I can hit the keys without getting those horrible reflexes from the wall. I can recommend this if your piano is close to a concrete/hard wall. The panels are 2 inches/ 5 cm thick with 5 cm side pyramids.
[Linked Image]
Posted By: Starre Re: I finally got a new upright piano. - 11/04/21 07:55 PM
Another picture:

[Linked Image]
Posted By: MrSh4nkly Re: I finally got a new upright piano. - 11/04/21 11:15 PM
Originally Posted by Starre
I can hit the keys without getting those horrible reflexes from the wall.
Hooray!
Got a good dehumidifier yesterday. Now mine's at a solid 45% like yours.
Posted By: tre corda Re: I finally got a new upright piano. - 11/05/21 01:51 AM
I am glad it worked out for Starre.Some do not have these problems if they move the piano about 5or 6 inches away from the wall /and or have a carpet and enough upholstery in the room.However this was a quick easy solution.Enjoy your new piano.
Posted By: tre corda Re: I finally got a new upright piano. - 11/05/21 02:02 AM
Originally Posted by MrSh4nkly
Originally Posted by Starre
I can hit the keys without getting those horrible reflexes from the wall.
Hooray!
Got a good dehumidifier yesterday. Now mine's at a solid 45% like yours.
I am glad you have a humidifier.The best humidity level is the one you can sustain in a close range.That could be 45, 55 even 60.If however you keep it at 45 and then next weak it is 65 because have to go way often that would not be good.If its 45 in the day and the humidifier is turned off at night, and it is 58 the next morning then that is not good either.The smallest range of humidity is what is important.
Posted By: Starre Re: I finally got a new upright piano. - 11/05/21 08:25 AM
Nice MrSh4nkly, do not go lower than 45, between 45 and 50 is probably best.
I know Steinway recommends 42 but that can be hard to reach when it gets humid.
Tre corda said "glad you have a humidifier" but probably meant dehumidifier, but I am in a climate where you need both, in the winter it gets very dry and I am running my humidifier hard now to get it to 45%.
Posted By: MrSh4nkly Re: I finally got a new upright piano. - 11/05/21 10:58 AM
@ tre corda and Starre, good to know, thanks. Luckily, the outside relative humidity doesn't change much throughout the year where I am, so keeping a steady 45% shouldn't be difficult. If it is, I'll try bumping it to 50%. (My machine only allows increments of 5%.)
Posted By: tre corda Re: I finally got a new upright piano. - 11/05/21 10:25 PM
Originally Posted by Starre
Nice MrSh4nkly, do not go lower than 45, between 45 and 50 is probably best.
I know Steinway recommends 42 but that can be hard to reach when it gets humid.
Tre corda said "glad you have a humidifier" but probably meant dehumidifier, but I am in a climate where you need both, in the winter it gets very dry and I am running my humidifier hard now to get it to 45%.
Thanks Starre yes I meant dehumidifier.😃
Posted By: Starre Re: I finally got a new upright piano. - 11/08/21 09:53 PM
Today I played 2.5 hours and lost all concept of time, it was really fun and I love the action smile.
Posted By: MrSh4nkly Re: I finally got a new upright piano. - 11/08/21 10:10 PM
Originally Posted by Starre
lost all concept of time
^Symptom of a shift from the left side of the brain (where most of us must operate during the day in order to be able to make a living) to the right side. Same thing can happen with drawing, painting or any other creative activity. It's such a wonderful feeling...almost transcendental. Could've been minutes. Could've been hours.
Posted By: Starre Re: I finally got a new upright piano. - 11/09/21 08:48 AM
Yes something like that happened, I am glad I took the step to get a new acoustic piano.
Posted By: Starre Re: I finally got a new upright piano. - 12/04/21 08:44 PM
I just want to post an update after living with this piano for 2 months: today I practised Beethoven fifth piano concerto and it sings lovely, very clear and great lustre in the top octaves. Bass is not super clear but robust and powerful with some grunt. From middle C and two octaves up it really sings with good sustain. Here in Europe I think you get good value considering the prize, I know it is more expensive in USA but compare to Bechstein, Blüthner, Steinway and such and it is definitively cheaper. Yes those pianos are probably even better than Seiler but I have played a few of them and the difference is not super big, I even say that Seiler has some unique qualities. Do not skip trying a Seiler if you are looking for a piano. I plan to visit Germany next year and hopefully I can visit the Seiler factory then.
Posted By: Starre Re: I finally got a new upright piano. - 05/15/22 12:20 AM
A few days ago it was time to tune the piano again, same person as last time. He said it was settling in fine and getting better, and I can only agree. I am a little surprised that this happened since the difference was not hard to hear. One note has irritated me but a few seconds work with a needle and it was fine, I am happy with the person tuning, he did a nice job. The brightness in the treble that bothered me is now not really a problem, my tuner did not want to change anything yet, saying that in the long run I might actually like it the way it is. So I am really glad I decided to buy my piano unheard which was rather scary, lovely to have good acoustic piano!
Posted By: MrSh4nkly Re: I finally got a new upright piano. - 05/15/22 01:23 AM
Originally Posted by Starre
The brightness in the treble that bothered me is now not really a problem, my tuner did not want to change anything yet, saying that in the long run I might actually like it the way it is.
It's amazing how much a great tuning does for voicing. Recently, I upgraded my Indonesian-made Seiler to a barely used German-made model that made a long trip to get here on some rough roads that shook it out of tune. It sounded dead on arrival, and harsh due to hardened hammers. It was tuned, badly, by the only tuner I could find in a hurry, after which it still sounded dead and harsh. My wife was wondering if I made a mistake with this "upgrade." It then got tuned a few weeks later by a decent tuner and sounded much better. Shortly thereafter, I reconnected with a tuner that's done work for many well known performers, and it now sounds magical and bell-like (oh boy can this guy tune). As for the overall feel of the instrument compared to the Indonesian model, it's much more precise, as I'm sure your German-made Seiler is.

Long story short, a great tuning makes a huge difference in the sound of the voicing, I've found.

After doing a great deal of research, I still three-needle-voiced the hammers, later (but not on their crowns), with wonderful results, but that's a story for another day.
Posted By: Starre Re: I finally got a new upright piano. - 05/15/22 12:50 PM
Congratulations! Which model is it?
Posted By: MrSh4nkly Re: I finally got a new upright piano. - 05/15/22 01:51 PM
ES-186 MA
Posted By: Starre Re: I finally got a new upright piano. - 05/15/22 02:25 PM
Wow that is expensive and I guess you tried before buying? The store which I bought my piano from has one 186 for sale, not new but probably in vg condition. I just need more space 😊.
Posted By: MrSh4nkly Re: I finally got a new upright piano. - 05/15/22 02:51 PM
It's ten years old and hardly used. My impression is it sat lonely in a room in some rich people's home like an ostracized orphan for most of that time but was at least regularly tuned. I did not try it first but heard it played in a HQ video made by a dealer of high repute. The price was very reasonable, and with some money down I was able to finance the rest at a low rate without having to put the home on the line or anything like that. The piano is the only collateral. I've insured it at replacement cost, per the Piano Buyer catalog's suggested maximum price for a new one. The ED-168 that preceded this is for sale on consignment with the dealer. The hammers were clearly only lightly used, but they had hardened quite a bit over those ten years, so I voiced them very moderately on the shoulders with a three-needle tool to give them a little cushion and take the edge off. Now all is bliss.
Posted By: MrSh4nkly Re: I finally got a new upright piano. - 05/15/22 02:56 PM
^ To be clear, I voiced the ES-186, not the ED-168.
Posted By: Starre Re: I finally got a new upright piano. - 05/15/22 03:40 PM
Great, take care of it which I am sure you will, seems like a good upgrade 👍.
Posted By: MrSh4nkly Re: I finally got a new upright piano. - 05/15/22 04:43 PM
Forgot to thank you for the grats, earlier, Starre, so thanks. The reason I mentioned the voicing is you had mentioned the overly bright tone with your Seiler on arrival, much of which I understand has since subsided. The reason I did my own voicing is, like you, I found tuner/techs are reluctant to get involved with that. When they are, it's mainly limited to a few pokes with a chopstick needler. My sense is that techs tend to be leery of getting involved with voicing because they don't want to disappoint their customers and then not be able to go back.

I could hear the desired tone in my head, decided it was possible with these fine hammers, and then set about researching how to achieve it.

First thing that was done was the pre-voicing procedure from Renner per the image, below (our hammers are Abel's, I believe, but the principle is the same). My understanding is Seiler does something like this at the factory; however, if it was done, the hardening of the hammers long ago canceled out the benefits of this procedure:

[Linked Image]

The other part of my research was to purchase André Oorebeek's The Voice of the Piano, which is a book that comes with a DVD, and study all the material. Based on that, I did what he calls "make a cushion" on every hammer. Basically, this means giving the hammers a tennis ball feel to them, so they're springy and their impact with the strings feels satisfying to the hands and ears. What this entails is using a 3-needle tool to stab anywhere from 20-25 (low bass) to 5-10 (high treble) stitches per cushion area while 3 hammers are pinched together with your other hand (for mutual support) and supported by a voicing block of wood. The needle tool when "making a cushion" should always be pointed toward the inner tip of the hammer (where all the triangles meet in the image below).

[Linked Image]

The section of the hammer between the two cushion areas is known as the crown. It is what Japanese voicers at Yamaha refer to as the Holy Drop, meaning don't touch it. In the image above, and in practice in Mr. Ooerbeek's DVD video, the cushion area goes from 9:00 o'clock to 11:30 on the left, and 3:00 o'clock to 12:30 on the right. I, however, was so paranoid of violating the Holy Drop that I only went from 9:00 to 11:00 and 3:00 to 1:00, respectively (protocol is to go from low to high on the shoulders).

The results were incredible At last, the tone I imagined when setting out on this venture is here. It's near-concert grade with a full dynamic range that is pleasant and singing to the ear, powerful when needed but not harsh, and a long sustain. I'm currently refining five, short pieces to make a video with over the summer and share.
Posted By: Starre Re: I finally got a new upright piano. - 05/15/22 07:30 PM
Interesting, what seems easy is most of the time not if you want good results. I will wait until next tuning to discuss this with my tuner.
Posted By: tre corda Re: I finally got a new upright piano. - 05/15/22 11:52 PM
MrSh4nkly,
I had no idea you upgraded to a an Seiler ES 186! That sounds like a wonderful piano.Has it settled down yet? So now you both have German Seilers! Since there are no active Schimmel upright members around, perhaps I could join your Seiler club?
Posted By: Starre Re: I finally got a new upright piano. - 05/16/22 04:50 PM
I see no "club" but maybe if we get more members with a Seiler piano, who knows...
Posted By: tre corda Re: I finally got a new upright piano. - 05/16/22 10:17 PM
Originally Posted by Starre
I see no "club" but maybe if we get more members with a Seiler piano, who knows...
Who knows, and why not a "European Piano Club?" Not really workable here I know.They are expensive, still they are special. Many prefer them to what else is offered, and for good reasons too! No amount of "puppetearing" will stop people from buying them;."Long may they reign!"
(perhaps it's the wine, gone straight to my head) I usually only have a half a glass once a week, but we went out for lunch.(a friend's birthday and before I knew it, a full glass of wine was poured by the server) 😃
Posted By: Retsacnal Re: I finally got a new upright piano. - 05/19/22 08:17 PM
Originally Posted by MrSh4nkly
The other part of my research was to purchase André Oorebeek's The Voice of the Piano, which is a book that comes with a DVD, and study all the material.

This is an excellent book! thumb
Posted By: MrSh4nkly Re: I finally got a new upright piano. - 06/26/22 11:56 AM
Starre, I promised you a video so you can hear the results of the voicing technique on my Seiler SE-186 described above. Here it is. This is my first video, and it was intended to only be a test, but I like how the sound turned out and decided to keep it, so pardon the underwear. No sound filters have been applied to the recording. As aforementioned, this SE-186 sounded awful on arrival. It had been shaken out of tune over a very long trip. The hammers were hard as rocks from many years of dormancy. I don't think it had ever been voiced other than the little Seiler does at the factory. This was an upgrade from a Seiler ED-168, but it sounded so bad when it got here my wife cringed when she heard it, thought it was really a downgrade, but didn't want to tell me. Now that it's perfectly tuned and voiced, she adores it.

Others have said they were underwhelmed by Seilers in this or that showroom. I have a feeling about why that is. As you know, their soundboard technology is unique in the industry. The downside to this, I believe, is that if the instrument isn't perfectly tuned it sounds thin and dead, and if it isn't well-voiced it sounds particularly harsh. If, however, it is perfectly tuned and well-voiced, a Seiler will sing with deep, resonant harmonics like no other. You and other forum members be the judge:

Posted By: SouthPark Re: I finally got a new upright piano. - 06/26/22 12:29 PM
Nice synth (oscillator, filter-sweep) effect at LINK!
Posted By: MrSh4nkly Re: I finally got a new upright piano. - 06/26/22 12:41 PM
Originally Posted by SouthPark
Nice synth (oscillator, filter-sweep) effect at LINK!
Ha thanks for noticing. This was done by simultaneously pressing and holding the soft and damper pedals just before the final arpeggiated chord is laid down (only time the soft pedal is used during the whole piece), then slowly releasing them. To be perfectly honest, once the chord is finished after both pedals are pressed, the soft pedal can be released immediately. The effect is dependent on the damper release only. This doesn't work if the soft pedal isn't used though.
Posted By: tre corda Re: I finally got a new upright piano. - 06/26/22 05:49 PM
Nice to see you back MrSh4nkly!
Your piano sounds like a rich tone, very nice too. I remember we visited Dijon a small town in France when we were much younger.(in the 80's) One day we came across a tall statue of Rameau.(unexpectedly) So I guess he lived there.I just thought you may be interested. It's nice to see you back.That's quite a piano! Regards, Tre
Posted By: MrSh4nkly Re: I finally got a new upright piano. - 06/26/22 08:02 PM
Thanks, tre corda. Funny how you "came across a tall statue of Rameau" in Dijon as he was a very tall guy. Fun fact: Rameau's last words, not far from his 81st birthday, were, "What the devil do you mean to sing to me, priest? You are out of tune."
Posted By: tre corda Re: I finally got a new upright piano. - 06/26/22 08:33 PM
Originally Posted by MrSh4nkly
Thanks, tre corda. Funny how you "came across a tall statue of Rameau" in Dijon as he was a very tall guy. Fun fact: Rameau's last words, not far from his 81st birthday, were, "What the devil do you mean to sing to me, priest? You are out of tune."
Yes ir was unexpected,I think we were going to the local market, well it was in an unusual place-- but there he was Rameau, the great French composer, harpsichordist and theorist.I know Telemann, Vivaldi and Bach all knew and respected each other's works .Bach may have studied some of Rameau's scores.
Posted By: tre corda Re: I finally got a new upright piano. - 06/26/22 09:02 PM
Funny about that priest! 😃 I see he was born just before JS Bach died.So perhaps CPE Bach would have known him.

https://images.app.goo.gl/pCUTKtJM1XUohbJcA
Posted By: RayR3004 Re: I finally got a new upright piano. - 06/27/22 03:36 PM
Congratulations on your purchase!! Seiler makes a beautiful piano. All the best!!
Posted By: Steven Y. A. Re: I finally got a new upright piano. - 06/27/22 04:15 PM
I heard great things about the Seiler magnetic action, congratulations!
what's the purchase price, would you mind to share?
Posted By: MrSh4nkly Re: I finally got a new upright piano. - 06/27/22 06:00 PM
Originally Posted by Steven Y. A.
I heard great things about the Seiler magnetic action, congratulations!
what's the purchase price, would you mind to share?
Thanks, Steven. The magnetic action pertains to only, if I recall correctly, one Seiler upright model. In grands, since the action is horizontal and gravity does much of the work, there's no need.

New, the MSRP and SMP for an ebony polish Seiler ES-186 are $145K and $108K, respectively, per Mr. Fine's pianobuyer.com guide. The (barely) used one you can see in the video a few posts back is 10 years old and was $40K. That was way beyond what I was able to pay, but last year I paid off my 7-year-old car with a mere 25K miles on it. With no need for another car loan for the foreseeable future, I rationalized getting a loan for the piano as replacing the old monthly car payment with a new one for the piano. Allegro offered a 7-year loan at 8.75% provided I agreed to monthly automatic debit payments and put down at least 10% of the price, so I jumped on that and then promptly insured the piano's ~$108K replacement value through Heritage. This was in early April, so Allegro's rates may have risen a percent or more along with overall interest rates since then.

Per the separate thread you made, I know you're in the hunt for a higher quality grand. These are definitely higher quality grands; however, for the reasons I mentioned above, they may not sound very appealing at all in showrooms. It's not cost effective for dealers to voice them to the level I had to on my own, and, in my opinion, because of their unique soundboard design, they sound thin and harsh when they're not expertly tuned and properly voiced to cushion the hammers in a manner similar to what is discussed in this post:

https://forum.pianoworld.com/ubbthr...got-a-new-upright-piano.html#Post3216472
Posted By: Starre Re: I finally got a new upright piano. - 06/27/22 09:32 PM
Thanks MrSh4nkly and nice to hear from you again. It sounds promising but I have to say that piece of music is very restricted when it comes to tonal range, it would be nice to hear more of the rest of the keyboard range smile. If you like maybe you can post something more one day. Thanks anyway! I should put up a video of me playing and perhaps I will soon. Some Bach Wohltemp. and maybe a Beethoven sonata or something from Chopin.
Posted By: MrSh4nkly Re: I finally got a new upright piano. - 06/27/22 10:37 PM
Thanks, Starre, and good point about the tonal range. I would very much like to hear your Seiler, so looking forward to that video. Meanwhile, I'll be working on one called "French Connection." It will be five short pieces: Ravel -> Rameau -> Ravel -> Rameau -> Ravel (Ravel, if you don't know this, loved Rameau and Couperin, both of whom, for whatever dumb reason, were frowned upon by the higher-ups at the Paris Conservatoire when he studied there). The Ravel pieces should have the tonal range you're looking for.

Since you mentioned Chopin, and you have a Seiler upright, here's a Chopin study performed on a (well-voiced in my opinion) Seiler upright:

Posted By: Starre Re: I finally got a new upright piano. - 06/28/22 11:28 AM
It sounds nice but I can for sure here that my Seiler Primus 122 has a better tone as it should considering that ED line is a step below the Primus/SE models.
Posted By: tre corda Re: I finally got a new upright piano. - 07/05/22 10:49 PM
I am sure Starres Seiler SE piano would sound and play far better than an ED Seiler model.That extremely difficult Chopin Etude was very well played.The piano sounded unusually "deep and mellow" for that model?
Posted By: tre corda Re: I finally got a new upright piano. - 07/07/22 03:06 AM
Originally Posted by Starre
Thanks MrSh4nkly and nice to hear from you again. It sounds promising but I have to say that piece of music is very restricted when it comes to tonal range, it would be nice to hear more of the rest of the keyboard range smile. If you like maybe you can post something more one day. Thanks anyway! I should put up a video of me playing and perhaps I will soon. Some Bach Wohltemp. and maybe a Beethoven sonata or something from Chopin.
Do you play any Beethoven or Chopin, MrSh4nkly or mainly Baroque and early Classical music? Starre it would be nice to hear a sound clip of your piano (even just a section of a piece).
Posted By: MrSh4nkly Re: I finally got a new upright piano. - 07/07/22 09:07 AM
Originally Posted by tre corda
Do you play any Beethoven or Chopin, MrSh4nkly or mainly Baroque and early Classical music?
I did play Beethoven as a kid (Pathetique), before a more than 35-year layoff, on a 1940-ish mahogany Story & Clark grand with rusty strings and bug-chewed front rail bushing felts (from years of storage in Honolulu while my stepdad was in Vietnam and, later, California). The key-bed felt like hitting granite. The keys weren't very responsive. Seemed like I was always fighting them. This gave me a hard touch that needs to chill out. I recall a blind, old man tuning it once a year. Bless his soul because he managed to never break a string. No Chopin until the 10/9 etude I'm working on now. Some Bach (French Suite) and other odds and ends as a kid. I don't "mainly" play music from any particular period. The Rameau piece above is quite bad in the sense that's not at all how that piece was meant to be played, but the Pianist subforum here has been kind enough to give me some detailed feedback on fixing that. Working on several Ravel pieces and another Rameau. A Scarlatti sonata is in my sights. Really just getting to know the piano again after all those years. It's nice to be able to do so on a fine instrument in great condition, this time.
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