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Posted By: fibbi Getting an upright piano - 02/25/21 08:57 AM
Hello! I'm new to the forum. Nice to see a place to chat about piano. smile

I'm in search of a new upright piano. I played piano since I was a kid and my first and only piano is Kawai upright (which is about 40 years old now). Can't remember the model but it's wood veener and I always love it. However, the only problem is , it wasn't tuning for about 10 years . Basically it was really out of tune.

Fast forward to now, I finally have a technician come over to turn it last summer. My kid is also learning piano now. But I think since I haven't tune it for so long, I still think it's not as good as before....

And since we pretty much we did everything "online" now (including piano lesson, exam, even music festival), I am planning to get a new piano. Well, first to allow better dynamic for my kid to practice, and also hopefully better recording for the competition/exam etc...And of course for my own enjoyment too.

I'd like to have a grand but space is an issue.

I"m eyeing on Yamaha U1 but quite impressed with U3 and YUS5. Price-wise I think U2 and YUS5 are not too big of a jump. But U1 and U3 is big difference (U1 about half price of U3).

Petrof P125 G1 is similar pricing of U3.

So question is, between Yahama U3 and Petrol P125 G1, which one would you pick?
Is YUS5 worth the $5K jump from U3 price?

I also tried Sauter (I forgot the model) I really love it, except when I see the price tag , it's 40K list price. I think for 40K I'd save up and get a grand instead. The sales mentioned if I don't mind open box I can get it at price close to 30K but still it's a lot. So sadly it's out of question.

So what do you think Yamaha U1 , U3, YUS5 and Petrof P125 G1 any opinion on them? Appreciate any comments!

Thank you !
Posted By: dogperson Re: Getting an upright piano - 02/25/21 11:03 AM
Since you did not tune your piano for 10 years, you shouldn’t expect that one tuning 8 months ago would be enough to have it ‘sound as good.’ I would have the tech come back to retune it and check what other work needs to be


If you need to buy a new piano, I hope you will consider a digital that does not need ongoing maintenance.
Posted By: dhull100 Re: Getting an upright piano - 02/25/21 11:22 AM
Petrograd uprights are impressive to me. I also have liked some Yamahas as well. I agree that ongoing maintenance is required, but I would chose doing that over digital anything. If you can’t have the piano maintained at least twice a year, digital will be better.
Posted By: Hakki Re: Getting an upright piano - 02/25/21 11:23 AM
If you have the budget for a YUS5 go with a grand. Maybe a Kawai GL-30.

You might find a solution to the space issue for a 5’5” grand.

It will be much more inspiring both for you and your kid.
Posted By: spanishbuddha Re: Getting an upright piano - 02/25/21 12:15 PM
I would also consider Kawai uprights, K500, or up since you are considering the YUS5. I think as a generality a quality upright can match or exceed a baby grand. I would not consider an out of box new piano, this is a musical instrument that you should try first and all pianos, even new ones from the factory are different.
Posted By: dhull100 Re: Getting an upright piano - 02/25/21 12:25 PM
I meant petrof above. Not Petrograd. Autocorrect strikes again, sorry about that
Posted By: gwing Re: Getting an upright piano - 02/25/21 12:29 PM
Welcome to the forums fibbi. Trying to answer your questions:


"So question is, between Yahama U3 and Petrol P125 G1, which one would you pick?
Is YUS5 worth the $5K jump from U3 price?"

I would pick the Petrof over the U3, but that is just a personal preference as I like the tone of the Petrof. I'm not suggesting that the Petrof is in any sense better than the U3, you have to see which *you* like the most.
For me the YUS5 isn't worth the jump from the U3 but I really liked the Yamaha SE132 which is more expensive again but to me worth the difference.

"So what do you think Yamaha U1 , U3, YUS5 and Petrof P125 G1 any opinion on them? Appreciate any comments!"

They are all good pianos, you won't go wrong with any of them, but you need to play them and discover your preference.
The U1 to U3 is a big price gap but there is also a big difference in the piano as well. YUS5 I didn't find that much different to the U3, SE132 changed the tone quality and was really nice putting it in a mid place between the typically brighter Yamahas and the typically more mellow Petrofs.


Re grands/uprights. If you have space for a grand there is an overlap in the sort of 10K->20K range where you can get either a really good upright or a budget grand so another choice to make there. Above 20K there is still an overlap but it is only with the really special 'exotic' uprights in that price category so the balance of value perhaps shifts to the grands, but again it is still a choice.

Good luck and happy piano hunting.
Posted By: David-G Re: Getting an upright piano - 02/25/21 12:37 PM
Originally Posted by dhull100
I meant petrof above. Not Petrograd. Autocorrect strikes again, sorry about that
There was I thinking that it was a Russian brand I hadn't heard of...
Posted By: SonatainfSharp Re: Getting an upright piano - 02/25/21 01:13 PM
I am going to go out another direction here. You say you have always loved your current upright. Get it tuned a few times in close succession and have a tech see what they can do with the voicing and regulation if they determine that it's worth it to try. You don't know the model of the Kawai upright, but some of them back then were incredible, outstanding instruments (and some weren't as much). Depending on model, 40 years could mean it still has 10-15-20 years left.

As far as recording...that is a different conversation and different skillset. With the right microphones and placement, your current piano could sound just wonderful with a stable tuning and even the slightest voicing.

As others have said, a good upright beats out a budget grand in your price range. I would go for a good upright because a grand that would fit in a limited space (as you said yourself) is going to be small, and even studio uprights beat out small (baby-baby) grands in sound and sometimes even key length (massive generalization regarding the key length).

I don't want to get into a Kawai vs Yamaha cage-match, but definitely look at Kawai as well as Yamaha. I don't know prices where you are, but if you are looking at Yamaha's U-series, then check out Kawai's K-series (either the older K-3/8/et al or current K-200/300/et al).

Since you looked at a Sauter and loved it, you could also look at Seiler SE upright models or mid-line ED upright models. These are German (Sauter; SE) or German-designed (ED) very high end (Sauter; SE) or upper-mid-range (ED) brands with a sound very, very different from Kawai and Yamaha. You love them or hate them; most people love them, but they are not going to sound like a Kawai.

I would take the Petrof "on paper" any day over everything you listed yourself, but that depends on how the action is prepped and how it sounds, of course.

I am old-school in that I only recommend digital pianos if you really, really, really must go down that route. Yes, I know there are some digital pianos that rival acoustics, but that is a whole set of information I don't know enough about (other than shoot-out recordings where I can always pick out the digital, no matter how good and who makes it and the price range and who is playing it; but you can't also get a sense of feel in a recording).
Posted By: SonatainfSharp Re: Getting an upright piano - 02/25/21 01:20 PM
Oh, oops, I forgot to push a Charles Walter 1500 Studio down your throat, too. smile Yes, I am actually getting rid of mine, but that is for reasons unrelated to 99% of everyone else. They are very high quality, and they aren't that expensive compared to some of the models you have listed. They have long string lengths and big soundboards, the key length rivals grand pianos, and if prepped right, you can close your eyes and swear up and down that you are hearing and feeling a grand piano. They are heirloom quality, possibly-100-year pianos, to boot.

I, personally, prefer the 1990s models with Langelier actions and design, but the current models are probably better on paper and more than wonderful for most people (but I am the only weirdo here who would get rid of a Walter instead of looking for one). They are hard to find used because people rarely sell them once they get their hands on them. I don't know how common new Walter dealers are in Vancouver, if you can even get a Walter in Canada. I never thought about that before...
Posted By: Pianosearcher Re: Getting an upright piano - 02/25/21 02:52 PM
I vote thumbs up on SonatainfSharp's recommendation about Charles Walter Studio pianos. I purchased a new Studio model in 1995 (it has the Langer action) and it's still fantastic. Everything about it (specs, tone, feel, etc) rival many grands that I have tried over the years. It's built to last. I keep it tuned & maintained and have had no major problems. Last May my technician did a complete regulation; we also did some reshaping & minor revoicing of the hammers and replaced the rest rail felt. What a delight to play!

For complete disclosure, back in the '90's when I was looking for a piano I found that I *wanted* to like the Charles Walters but wasn't finding one that "had what it took" for me. With perseverance I eventually found the one I bought - illustrating how every piano is an individual regardless of make/model. Let me also give a shout out to Rich Galassini at Cunningham Piano. He was extremely patient & professional with my multi-year search and over time got to know what I liked & didn't like. One day he called and said he thought he had found "my piano." I went over to Cunningham's showroom; he had 3 Charles Walters in a row for me to try (it was a test ... nudge, nudge, wink, wink). Two of them felt & sounded the same as all the others I had looked at but as soon as I hit the first note on the third one I instantly knew it was my piano. I bought it on the spot.

Also for complete disclosure I am now looking for a grand piano ... but I am keeping my Charles Walter!
Posted By: fibbi Re: Getting an upright piano - 02/25/21 05:29 PM
The reason that I didn’t tune is that since I pass all the exam I only play piano for enjoyment so I don’t practise 4 hours a day . I thought I didn’t need to tune that often . And time just pass by quick without tuning. But now since my kid is having lesson I will tune it in schedule.
Posted By: Sail26 Re: Getting an upright piano - 02/25/21 05:52 PM
My 3 favorite ~10k or under uprights right now would be the Seiler ED, the K300/500, and the Yamaha U series. From left to right in "mellow" to "bright." Kawai was a nice happy medium and they have the best action imho. Both other pianos are also excellent though. The Seiler overall had the nicest build/cabinet.
Posted By: SonatainfSharp Re: Getting an upright piano - 02/25/21 06:02 PM
Originally Posted by fibbi
The reason that I didn’t tune is that since I pass all the exam I only play piano for enjoyment so I don’t practise 4 hours a day . I thought I didn’t need to tune that often . And time just pass by quick without tuning. But now since my kid is having lesson I will tune it in schedule.
Ya, the general consensus is to tune it once a year if it is just sitting there or hardly played; twice a year if it's played regularly and fits within your budget.

A tech can voice and regulate things here and there, too, instead of all at once, *as long as it's at a good baseline to start with.*
Posted By: fibbi Re: Getting an upright piano - 02/25/21 07:10 PM
And thank you all for your insightful comments! Thank you very much!!
I will keep those model in mind. But the problem is, I don’t know if any local dealer actually carries them . I personally haven’t seen Kawai sold here. But may be I just didn’t research enough.

As for the old piano I should give it another tune. Hopefully it would be better too.

Yes grand piano is out of the question no one in the house wants to give up the living room 😞 . One day if I move then yes will plan the grand.

In the showroom I like the Petrof sound but I have no experience with this brand , I was told it’s made in Cezch republic. And the sales rep seems to favour Yamaha over petrof but she could be just trying to sell her Yamaha in her lot.
Posted By: Hakki Re: Getting an upright piano - 02/25/21 07:17 PM
If you happen to have a 12' by 15' room that would be okay for a grand of about 5'5" size.

If the ceiling is higher than 8 ft and the room has an opening to another area, than a smaller room would be okay too.

You have waited for 40 years, you deserve a grand.
Posted By: SonatainfSharp Re: Getting an upright piano - 02/25/21 07:26 PM
The Yamaha dealer wants to sell a Yamaha. Most people have heard of Yamaha. They make thousands (upon thousands?) of pianos a year. The dealer will use this to favor the Yamaha for sure.

Petrof is an amazing brand, though. Not as many people have heard of it. It could clearly be your strongest contender if you like the sound so much! I re-read your first post: are these all new pianos you are looking at?

I, personally, think trying to squeeze in a 5'5" grand will be a huge waste; a U3 or that Petrof will outshine (any? most?) 5'5" grands. This is all on paper, of course. Your real life mileage may vary.
Posted By: fibbi Re: Getting an upright piano - 02/25/21 07:38 PM
All new piano I was referring to. I try not to go through the hassle of finding old piano because way more research I have to go through. Also the logistic .
Posted By: Hakki Re: Getting an upright piano - 02/25/21 07:55 PM
Originally Posted by SonatainfSharp
I, personally, think trying to squeeze in a 5'5" grand will be a huge waste; a U3 or that Petrof will outshine (any? most?) 5'5" grands. This is all on paper, of course. Your real life mileage may vary.

I respectfully disagree.

A grand is a completely different experience. Both sound wise and touch wise.
Posted By: Maestro Lennie Re: Getting an upright piano - 02/25/21 08:06 PM
It all depends on how much you want the piano to chew up the space. If this is to be a living area that gets played in, an upright. If a practice studio with a few extra chairs, a grand.

Still, I have to wonder: if your current axe were tuned and regulated, would it be much worse than the models we are speaking of? I don't know the answer, as I have no idea what your Kawai is like. But it is worth having the tuning done and ask the tech what can/must be done with the rest of the piano. You might solve your real problem for less than $1,000.
Posted By: SonatainfSharp Re: Getting an upright piano - 02/25/21 08:17 PM
Originally Posted by Hakki
Originally Posted by SonatainfSharp
I, personally, think trying to squeeze in a 5'5" grand will be a huge waste; a U3 or that Petrof will outshine (any? most?) 5'5" grands. This is all on paper, of course. Your real life mileage may vary.

I respectfully disagree.

A grand is a completely different experience. Both sound wise and touch wise.
Just like a 5'5" grand is a very different experience than a 6'2" grand or a 7'1" grand or a 9'1" grand, or 43" console is a very different experience than a 45" studio or a 52" professional. In all those sizes, including uprights, the key length changes, the string length changes, soundboard size changes, panels can be opened and closed, room positioning, decor in the room, etc.

There are uprights like my Walter that have more soundboard, string length, and key length than a lot of small grands. And when I close my eyes, it darn right sounds and feels like a grand piano with my placement from the wall, etc. It sounds and feels better than any small grands I have played, for sure.

Uprights, even in 2021, are still so severely under-estimated and underrated. I am not sure why that is.

Even the action in an upright vs grand isn't as black and white as it used to be. Upright action technology is very fast and a lot of uprights are starting to use fast-repetition technology, and some even have double-escapement, too (as evident by a tech's thread here a few years back).

Your signature suggests that you are a tech yourself, though, so I assume I am preaching to the choir with all of this.
Posted By: Hakki Re: Getting an upright piano - 02/25/21 08:40 PM
It has the M III action and the tone is nice IMO.

https://kawaius.com/product/gl-30/

Posted By: Sail26 Re: Getting an upright piano - 02/25/21 10:37 PM
The advantage of a grand are twofold: 1) potentially better action, and 2) potentially longer strings. However, there's more to it.

First, upright actions have so dramatically improved in the last 50 years that a good upright action like Kawai's MIII, especially the K500 and up with its longer keys, is noticeably faster and overall better than a lot of grands. And second, you have to get a grand over 6' to beat out the tall uprights in speaking string length. Other users on the forum have provided examples like the following:

Kawai K800 upright (134 cm) - speaking length is 128 cm
Steinway M grand (170 cm) - speaking length is 125 cm
Kawai K300 upright (122 cm) - speaking length is 120 cm
Yamaha U1 upright (122 cm) - speaking length is 119 cm
Boston GP-163 PE II grand (163 cm) - speaking length is 119 cm
Steinway S grand (155 cm) - speaking length is 116 cm
Essex EGP-155F grand (155 cm) - speaking length is 112 cm

So high end grand > high end upright > low end grand > low end upright. I've played on a lot of much pricier grands that didn't hold a candle to a nice Yamaha, Kawai, or Seiler upright. And in the 5-20k range new, you definitely get more bang for your buck with an upright. After 20k grands start to be more the way to go. Oh and grands look sexier of course. =)
Posted By: SonatainfSharp Re: Getting an upright piano - 02/25/21 10:46 PM
Knocked that out of the park better than I could. Thanks! laugh
Posted By: pianoloverus Re: Getting an upright piano - 02/25/21 11:01 PM
Originally Posted by Sail26
And second, you have to get a grand over 6' to beat out the tall uprights in speaking string length.Other users on the forum have provided examples like the following:

Kawai K800 upright (134 cm) - speaking length is 128 cm
Steinway M grand (170 cm) - speaking length is 125 cm
Kawai K300 upright (122 cm) - speaking length is 120 cm
Yamaha U1 upright (122 cm) - speaking length is 119 cm
Boston GP-163 PE II grand (163 cm) - speaking length is 119 cm
Steinway S grand (155 cm) - speaking length is 116 cm
Essex EGP-155F grand (155 cm) - speaking length is 112 cm

So high end grand > high end upright > low end grand > low end upright.
I believe your analysis is wrong. If I remember correctly, I made a post a while ago comparing the speaking length of the longest bass string on tall verticals and the Steinway O grand. As best as I can remember the speaking length of the model O(why did you choose the model M?) was longer than any of the lengths for the tall verticals and the model O is shorter than 6'. Another problem with your analysis is that only a small number of makers even make a 53" tall vertical. "High end" and "low end", whether for a vertical or grand, applies to the price not the size.
Posted By: Sail26 Re: Getting an upright piano - 02/25/21 11:18 PM
I copied this from elsewhere on the forum by user Iaroslav Vasiliev. I had no reason to doubt it and I don't have access to measure myself. 134cm/53" uprights are rare but 52" are a standard size, and would still place ahead of all the 5'5" class grands. Steinway themselves made the statement before the turn of the century (and the 5'10" O) that a true grand cannot be any less that 6' in length.

It's also a generalization, not a firm rule. And there's been a trend in grands over the years to have shorter speaking length, and may different scale setups even from the same brand such as Steinway have done things differently. Specifically the trend towards a shorter speaking length was discussed here:

http://forum.pianoworld.com/ubbthre...ring-speaking-length-for-top-grands.html

Bottom line is even discounting price modern uprights compare extremely favorably in tone and action to modern baby grands. After you get above 6' the grands start to run away with it. But before that you better be doing a very detailed comparison and not just relying on the grand to be better "because grand."
Posted By: pianoloverus Re: Getting an upright piano - 02/25/21 11:35 PM
Originally Posted by Sail26
I copied this from elsewhere on the forum by user Iaroslav Vasiliev. I had no reason to doubt it and I don't have access to measure myself. 134cm/53" uprights are rare but 52" are a standard size, and would still place ahead of all the 5'5" class grands. Steinway themselves made the statement before the turn of the century (and the 5'10" O) that a true grand cannot be any less that 6' in length.
It was probably Vasiliev's post that I corrected in my earlier reply about the Steinway model O that I mentioned. I do remember that after correcting whoever's post it was the poster thanked me for my figures and agreed with me. You should check the Steinway site for the speaking length of the model O. Since the model O is around 3.5" longer than the model M it's reasonable it would more than make up the 3 cm difference between the K800 and the model M.

Now you have gone from 6' grands down to 5'5" grands and that's a very different statement. Finally, I think many would disagree with you that a good mid-priced (Yamaha, Kawai, Hailun, Cunningham, Perzina) but even mid five foot grand has an action inferior to high end verticals. The only exception might be verticals specifically designed to mimic grand actions but these are extremely rare.
Posted By: Lady Bird Re: Getting an upright piano - 02/25/21 11:59 PM
I would not compare even high end uprights so casually to high end grands .(so casually.) Even comparing a high end upright to a Japanese grands, there are bound to be problems.
For a start how many K800's have you played ? How many Steinways M's have you played. ?
Besides upright pianos are just different to grands.
Posted By: Lady Bird Re: Getting an upright piano - 02/26/21 02:18 AM
Originally Posted by gwing
Welcome to the forums fibbi. Trying to answer your questions:


"So question is, between Yahama U3 and Petrol P125 G1, which one would you pick?
Is YUS5 worth the $5K jump from U3 price?"

I would pick the Petrof over the U3, but that is just a personal preference as I like the tone of the Petrof. I'm not suggesting that the Petrof is in any sense better than the U3, you have to see which *you* like the most.
For me the YUS5 isn't worth the jump from the U3 but I really liked the Yamaha SE132 which is more expensive again but to me worth the difference.

"So what do you think Yamaha U1 , U3, YUS5 and Petrof P125 G1 any opinion on them? Appreciate any comments!"

They are all good pianos, you won't go wrong with any of them, but you need to play them and discover your preference.
The U1 to U3 is a big price gap but there is also a big difference in the piano as well. YUS5 I didn't find that much different to the U3, SE132 changed the tone quality and was really nice putting it in a mid place between the typically brighter Yamahas and the typically more mellow Petrofs.


Re grands/uprights. If you have space for a grand there is an overlap in the sort of 10K->20K range where you can get either a really good upright or a budget grand so another choice to make there. Above 20K there is still an overlap but it is only with the really special 'exotic' uprights in that price category so the balance of value perhaps shifts to the grands, but again it is still a choice.

Good luck and happy piano hunting.
A Seiler SE132 would be a price equal to the Sauter 130 or a Schimmel. I think at the North Vancouver branch there is 120 C Schimmel on sale. If you persist you may be able to get it at a reasonable price.Of course living in North Vancouver, myself I know the dealer that the OP is probably visiting .
So yes I think a U3 is very good and well made .The YUS5 to me certainly is even better but a higher price tag. They tend to be more consistent , and have a nicer tone.
Petrof uprights (like all European pianos) are more mellow .I am not sure if the response is that good, I thought not.
I would advise going to Richmond to see the Kawai dealer. The Kawai K500 is an exquisite instrument for its price. To a lesser degree the K300 is excellent. The only place that sell Seiler SE and the cheaper ED Seiler is Showcase pianos. They do not, by the way give good discounts. ( only 10 % off some of of these high end models )
They do sell pianos like Seiler, Grotrian, Fazioli and Bechstein so I do not think it much worth to go there except for the ED Seiler.( the Indonesian replica of the Seiler SE models) This piano had a good review on Piano Buyer and is good for its price tag. They also sell Wilth Steinberg.I wish you well with your piano search !
Posted By: Lady Bird Re: Getting an upright piano - 02/26/21 02:37 AM
There is also Paceys downtown, they do sell Schultz Polmann. which is a similar price to the U3 or YUS5. Apart from that they are also Mason and Hamlin dealers .And if you have the money -- Bluthner.I do not like the Irmler uprights designed by Bluthner. ( but are Asian made ), but they do sell Hassler as well. ? I am not sure of the price of those however.
Posted By: fibbi Re: Getting an upright piano - 02/26/21 02:49 AM
Originally Posted by Lady Bird
A Seiler SE132 would be a price equal to the Sauter 130 or a Schimmel. I think at the North Vancouver branch there is 120 C Schimmel on sale. If you persist you may be able to get it at a reasonable price.Of course living in North Vancouver, myself I know the dealer that the OP is probably visiting .
So yes I think a U3 is very good and well made .The YUS5 to me certainly is even better but a higher price tag. They tend to be more consistent , and have a nicer tone.
Petrof uprights (like all European pianos) are more mellow .I am not sure if the response is that good, I thought not.
I would advise going to Richmond to see the Kawai dealer. The Kawai K500 is an exquisite instrument for its price. To a lesser degree the K300 is excellent. The only place that sell Seiler SE and the cheaper ED Seiler is Showcase pianos. They do not, by the way give good discounts. ( only 10 % off some of of these high end models )
They do sell pianos like Seiler, Grotrian, Fazioli and Bechstein so I do not think it much worth to go there except for the ED Seiler.( the Indonesian replica of the Seiler SE models) This piano had a good review on Piano Buyer and is good for its price tag. They also sell Wilth Steinberg.I wish you well with your piano search !

Thank you for the input!
I just went to Showcase today. And Yes I am really surprised with the ED Seiler (good surprise). Price point is very good too but I was turn off with Indonesia made. I'm not too thrilled about Grotrian. Fazioli doesn't have upright I don't bother trying. Like Bechstein too but of course not consider that price point.
Next stop I will visit Kawai in Richmond. May make a trip to N Van for Schimmel on weekend.
Posted By: Lady Bird Re: Getting an upright piano - 02/26/21 03:30 AM
Here is a review by terminaldegree, one of our members of the ED Seiler. Of course the German one is better but the price really is more than double the ED Seiler.


https://www.pianobuyer.com/article/the-vertical-piano-is-not-dead/
Posted By: Lady Bird Re: Getting an upright piano - 02/26/21 03:50 AM
Actually the Schimmel Classic 120 is not mentioned online anymore.It may have sold .So I would phone ahead of time and ask. Also ask if they can have it tuned for your visit .One can not tell much about a piano if they are out of tune.
This is a reasonable request and they should have it prepared for you.
Posted By: Hakki Re: Getting an upright piano - 02/26/21 08:39 AM
IMO, 5'5" is a reasonable size grand for a small room.

Also IMO, the feeling of sitting in front of a grand by itself is worth experiencing.

I would definitely go with a Kawai GL-30 with this kind of budget.
Posted By: Lady Bird Re: Getting an upright piano - 02/26/21 09:26 AM
Why when it's clear the OP wants an upright?
Posted By: Hakki Re: Getting an upright piano - 02/26/21 09:47 AM
Originally Posted by Lady Bird
Why when it's clear the OP wants an upright?

Maybe you have missed this part from OP's first post:

Originally Posted by fibbi
I am planning to get a new piano. Well, first to allow better dynamic for my kid to practice, and also hopefully better recording for the competition/exam etc...And of course for my own enjoyment too.

I'd like to have a grand but space is an issue.

IMO, a Kawai GL-30 with 5'5" size would fit in a small room, and it is within OP's budget.

And IMO, it will be much more suitable for a competition/exam recording.
Posted By: fibbi Re: Getting an upright piano - 02/26/21 10:07 AM
Thank you for the recommendation I will keep that in mind if one day I am getting a grand.

My room is 10x12ft and it is double as husband’s home office. It unfortunately won’t fit a grand 😢
Posted By: Hakki Re: Getting an upright piano - 02/26/21 10:17 AM
According to this article, ideally the maximum piano size is room perimeter divided by 10.

In your case it means a 4.8 ft grand.

But, IMO, a Kawai GL-30 (5'5") will fit nicely in a 10x12 ft room.

Most conservatory rooms fit a bigger grand plus an upright in a room of that size.
Posted By: Hakki Re: Getting an upright piano - 02/26/21 10:46 AM
And finally, a Kawai GL-20 with 5'2" size will definitely fit that room.

Pianobuyer SMP is 18,190 USD for GL-20.

You might expect a 15% to 30% discount from that price.



.
Posted By: gwing Re: Getting an upright piano - 02/26/21 12:02 PM
Originally Posted by Hakki
And finally, a Kawai GL-20 with 5'2" size will definitely fit that room.

Pianobuyer SMP is 18,190 USD for GL-20.

You might expect a 15% to 30% discount from that price.



.

I think the OP has made it clear that he is looking for an upright not a grand hasn't he?

You may personally prefer grands but although the GL-20 grand is a nice piano it struggled to keep up with my K800 upright when they were played next to one another. Now the Shigeru SK-7 also played alongside hugely outclassed my upright but I suspect it would also leave most other grands behind as well :-) It isn't as simple as a grand is better than an upright or vice-versa, there is a middle ground in size and price where either can have the advantage depending on the individual models and personal preferences.
Posted By: SonatainfSharp Re: Getting an upright piano - 02/26/21 01:19 PM
Originally Posted by Hakki
According to this article, ideally the maximum piano size is room perimeter divided by 10.

In your case it means a 4.8 ft grand.

But, IMO, a Kawai GL-30 (5'5") will fit nicely in a 10x12 ft room.

Most conservatory rooms fit a bigger grand plus an upright in a room of that size.
Wow! The OP has said many times that they want an upright. ALSO, the room doubles as the office. You have no idea what else is in that room! The 10x12 thing you are assuming is empty?? With the room being an office, even the footprint of an upright might be tight for all we know.
Posted By: SonatainfSharp Re: Getting an upright piano - 02/26/21 01:21 PM
Originally Posted by gwing
Originally Posted by Hakki
And finally, a Kawai GL-20 with 5'2" size will definitely fit that room.

Pianobuyer SMP is 18,190 USD for GL-20.

You might expect a 15% to 30% discount from that price.



.

I think the OP has made it clear that he is looking for an upright not a grand hasn't he?

You may personally prefer grands but although the GL-20 grand is a nice piano it struggled to keep up with my K800 upright when they were played next to one another. Now the Shigeru SK-7 also played alongside hugely outclassed my upright but I suspect it would also leave most other grands behind as well :-) It isn't as simple as a grand is better than an upright or vice-versa, there is a middle ground in size and price where either can have the advantage depending on the individual models and personal preferences.
I think you and I are the only two people on these forums who feels that an upright can outshine a grand in these categories. We might as well give up at this point. laugh
Posted By: Hakki Re: Getting an upright piano - 02/26/21 01:55 PM
I would move my home office rather than seeing my wife posting a crying emoji.
Posted By: dogperson Re: Getting an upright piano - 02/26/21 01:58 PM
Originally Posted by SonatainfSharp
Originally Posted by gwing
Originally Posted by Hakki
And finally, a Kawai GL-20 with 5'2" size will definitely fit that room.

Pianobuyer SMP is 18,190 USD for GL-20.

You might expect a 15% to 30% discount from that price.



.

I think the OP has made it clear that he is looking for an upright not a grand hasn't he?

You may personally prefer grands but although the GL-20 grand is a nice piano it struggled to keep up with my K800 upright when they were played next to one another. Now the Shigeru SK-7 also played alongside hugely outclassed my upright but I suspect it would also leave most other grands behind as well :-) It isn't as simple as a grand is better than an upright or vice-versa, there is a middle ground in size and price where either can have the advantage depending on the individual models and personal preferences.
I think you and I are the only two people on these forums who feels that an upright can outshine a grand in these categories. We might as well give up at this point. laugh


No, I agree that an upright can be equal to or superior to a grand. There is just no reason to say it anymore. There are those that believe it.. and those that will never be convinced
Posted By: gwing Re: Getting an upright piano - 02/26/21 02:12 PM
Originally Posted by SonatainfSharp
Originally Posted by gwing
Originally Posted by Hakki
And finally, a Kawai GL-20 with 5'2" size will definitely fit that room.

Pianobuyer SMP is 18,190 USD for GL-20.

You might expect a 15% to 30% discount from that price.



.

I think the OP has made it clear that he is looking for an upright not a grand hasn't he?

You may personally prefer grands but although the GL-20 grand is a nice piano it struggled to keep up with my K800 upright when they were played next to one another. Now the Shigeru SK-7 also played alongside hugely outclassed my upright but I suspect it would also leave most other grands behind as well :-) It isn't as simple as a grand is better than an upright or vice-versa, there is a middle ground in size and price where either can have the advantage depending on the individual models and personal preferences.
I think you and I are the only two people on these forums who feels that an upright can outshine a grand in these categories. We might as well give up at this point. laugh

Not at all, never give up :-)

I do agree though that there are folks here who will never agree and pursuing that argument is a waste of time. But what isn't a waste of time is the responsibility to make sure that newcomers to the forum, who won't have read and reread all the arguments, get a reasonable balanced answer to questions they ask.
Posted By: Maestro Lennie Re: Getting an upright piano - 02/26/21 02:34 PM
"Fit" by the /10 algorithm refers to acoustics, not living space!
Posted By: dogperson Re: Getting an upright piano - 02/26/21 02:35 PM
Amazing that many generations of students prepared for competitions and exams on an upright— wonder how they ever survived?
Posted By: Carey Re: Getting an upright piano - 02/26/21 03:27 PM
Originally Posted by Hakki
I would move my home office rather than seeing my wife posting a crying emoji.
thumb thumb thumb
Posted By: SonatainfSharp Re: Getting an upright piano - 02/26/21 03:35 PM
Originally Posted by dogperson
Amazing that many generations of students prepared for competitions and exams on an upright— wonder how they ever survived?
One thing that gives me a giggle is when someone says "my 9yo is at Grade 3 and her teacher said that we need a grand now to continue." Ummmm, I had a clearance Kawai console that got me through university...

In college, our "star performer" who has gone on to do great things, had his home practice instrument in the garage, in Minnesota; an old upright that was hardly tuned. I always wondered how he was able to do what he did.

Similarly, I only ever had my very cheap student violin my entire life and I was a principle in college with it, even, so there's that, I guess. A violin forum would not like to hear that, I suspect. laugh
Posted By: SonatainfSharp Re: Getting an upright piano - 02/26/21 03:37 PM
Originally Posted by gwing
Not at all, never give up :-)

I do agree though that there are folks here who will never agree and pursuing that argument is a waste of time. But what isn't a waste of time is the responsibility to make sure that newcomers to the forum, who won't have read and reread all the arguments, get a reasonable balanced answer to questions they ask.
I needed to hear this today more than you realize, pertaining to multiple threads across all the forums lately. Thank you.
Posted By: pianoloverus Re: Getting an upright piano - 02/26/21 04:06 PM
Originally Posted by SonatainfSharp
I think you and I are the only two people on these forums who feels that an upright can outshine a grand in these categories. We might as well give up at this point. laugh
Actually, the opposite is true. Many/most posters agree that at certain price a high quality upright can be better than a lesser quality grand in some respects. What's not true are certain recently posted ideas that string length in the bass is the only important factor in bass tone, key length is the crucial factor in action feel, very tall uprights have string length greater than grands under 6', etc.
Posted By: Sail26 Re: Getting an upright piano - 02/26/21 04:07 PM
Pianoloverus: Right. I couldn't find the Model O. But I think the other numbers are accurate, the Model O is just a hair longer. At any rate, it shows tall uprights are in the same ballpark as 5.5-6' grands, and a 53" upright isn't like a "4' 5" grand (i.e., what the face value numbers would suggest.)

Lady Bird: Everyone has their preferences, and I'm no expert, just a middling classical dabbler, but I'd rank a Shigaru Kawai right up there with the highest end. The 3 best pianos I've ever played were a 9ft (or close) Schimmel, Shigaru, and Fazioli. And I have played on DOZENS of middling grands that I wouldn't even put in the same class as a K800 (which yes, I've played on), a Seiler ES, or Grotrian upright.
Posted By: fibbi Re: Getting an upright piano - 02/26/21 04:37 PM
Originally Posted by Hakki
I would move my home office rather than seeing my wife posting a crying emoji.

only if there's anywhere else to move in the house ... and sadly there is none...
Posted By: fibbi Re: Getting an upright piano - 02/26/21 04:42 PM
Originally Posted by SonatainfSharp
Originally Posted by dogperson
Amazing that many generations of students prepared for competitions and exams on an upright— wonder how they ever survived?
One thing that gives me a giggle is when someone says "my 9yo is at Grade 3 and her teacher said that we need a grand now to continue." Ummmm, I had a clearance Kawai console that got me through university...

In college, our "star performer" who has gone on to do great things, had his home practice instrument in the garage, in Minnesota; an old upright that was hardly tuned. I always wondered how he was able to do what he did.

Similarly, I only ever had my very cheap student violin my entire life and I was a principle in college with it, even, so there's that, I guess. A violin forum would not like to hear that, I suspect. laugh

I also got a Kawai upright for my entire piano learning time. That is the only one piano I ever own, until now (40 yrs later) that I considered getting another piano. But I have to admit the current generation is so much more lucky... I have seen the 7 year old kid got a white Steinway grand at her house. But of course she played very well and I guess she really "deserved" a good piano for her practice. Only if my kid is as dedicated as her....I would give up my car to get her a Steinway too...
Posted By: Lady Bird Re: Getting an upright piano - 02/26/21 06:06 PM
Yes a better quality upright is better than a not so good grand I have an upright which certainly outshines quite a few grands
(some of those in the GL series for example , but it was really expensive piano to buy )
However there is just no point in arguing about uprights and grands. Even the "very worst grands" can look like superstars in someone's house and that may be enough for them.
( I am not talking about the GL series, although the tone on the GL20, and 30 was unpleasantly bright.)

If the OP has said they need an upright , just let them get an upright.
Posted By: Retsacnal Re: Getting an upright piano - 02/26/21 06:41 PM
Originally Posted by fibbi
I am really surprised with the ED Seiler (good surprise). Price point is very good too but I was turn off with Indonesia made.

If you like a certain piano, given all your constraints, then you probably shouldn't worry about where it was made.
Posted By: Retsacnal Re: Getting an upright piano - 02/26/21 06:46 PM
Originally Posted by Carey
Originally Posted by Hakki
I would move my home office rather than seeing my wife posting a crying emoji.
thumb thumb thumb

thumb thumb thumb
Posted By: twocats Re: Getting an upright piano - 02/26/21 07:22 PM
I had a Petrof 125 and it was a wonderful piano, with a nice touch and a really lovely sound. I actually liked it better than the Petrof IV grand that I briefly owned.
Posted By: Windjammer Re: Getting an upright piano - 02/26/21 08:46 PM
Here's my experience (all late 2020/early 2021). When I tried out some new Seiler SE instruments, I preferred their medium to larger uprights (up to SE132) to at least one of their shortest grands. Fuller sound and better action. No competition with their larger grands though.

As for Kawai GL, there's a HUGE jump in quality from GL 20 to GL 30. I didn't like their GL 10 one bit and would vastly prefer a K500 or K800 upright to these. GL 20 it's closer. GL 30 is no competition.

PS. Please tell me this forum has at least one thread where someone asks in earnest if they can mount a grand vertically on a wall.
wink
Posted By: Lady Bird Re: Getting an upright piano - 02/26/21 11:05 PM
For quality of tone the K500 I think is even better than the K20.
One of my students however loved the mellow tone of the GL10 and chose that instead of a K500. She wanted a grand and is perfect happy with her piano. It is soft for a grand, but
most of the pieces she played (not a Rachmaninoff or Brahms player)
Anyway I do not teach anymorel, but the last time I saw she seemed perfectly happy with her piano.
Posted By: Lady Bird Re: Getting an upright piano - 02/26/21 11:42 PM
Originally Posted by twocats
I had a Petrof 125 and it was a wonderful piano, with a nice touch and a really lovely sound. I actually liked it better than the Petrof IV grand that I briefly owned.
Considering I only tried a 130 Petrof once , perhaps I was wrong in suggesting that they do not have a good response or touch. Perhaps it was just that piano that needed to be prepped .So perhaps consider the Petrof. I have played a 17 year old grand that sounded amazing .
Here is a used Schimmel in Vancouver. I do not sure if it is at all like the Konzert that is relatable to the Schimmel Konzert of today. It is quite few years old , so you would need to have it checked over by an independent technician



https://vancouver.craigslist.org/d/for-sale/search/sss?s=687&query=Piano
Posted By: pianoloverus Re: Getting an upright piano - 02/26/21 11:51 PM
Originally Posted by Lady Bird
Yes a better quality upright is better than a not so good grand I have an upright which certainly outshines quite a few grands...
Statements like this are not useful because there is no agreement on "better quality" and "not so good".
Posted By: SonatainfSharp Re: Getting an upright piano - 02/27/21 02:34 AM
Originally Posted by Lady Bird
Originally Posted by twocats
I had a Petrof 125 and it was a wonderful piano, with a nice touch and a really lovely sound. I actually liked it better than the Petrof IV grand that I briefly owned.
Considering I only tried a 130 Petrof once , perhaps I was wrong in suggesting that they do not have a good response or touch. Perhaps it was just that piano that needed to be prepped .So perhaps consider the Petrof. I have played a 17 year old grand that sounded amazing .
Here is a used Schimmel in Vancouver. I do not sure if it is at all like the Konzert that is relatable to the Schimmel Konzert of today. It is quite few years old , so you would need to have it checked over by an independent technician



https://vancouver.craigslist.org/d/for-sale/search/sss?s=687&query=Piano
Petrof uprights, depending on year, can be hit or miss. I’ve played both amazing ones and terrible ones, used, right next to each other several times.

I remember the first Petrof I tried was so bad that I was curious what it was. Then I read about how great they are, and I was so confused. Thankfully I’ve played a few great ones since.
Posted By: Lady Bird Re: Getting an upright piano - 02/27/21 03:42 AM
I have read they have improved. There are a few members here who own Petrof uprights and are extremely happy with them.
So I really do not know ? Larger verticals are said to have Renner action .





https://www.pianobuyer.com/brand/petrof/
Posted By: K8KT Re: Getting an upright piano - 02/27/21 04:55 AM
Op is looking for an upright given the space constraints despite her preference for a grand. I am sympathetic to those who have space issues or family members that don’t appreciate the presence of a larger piano at home. Some of us in my family would happily trade our comfortable couches for bean bag chairs if that meant we could own a CFX, but I don’t think others would be amused by the idea.
To op, if the old kawai hasn’t been tuned for a decade, it’s going to take some “make up tunings” to stabilize the tune. It is no surprise that the piano started to regress back a little soon after being tuned. As to yus5 or u3, yus5 has a nice tone and touch that I enjoy slightly more than u3. But whether it’s worth the additional $5k depends on if you feel like splurging. A new u3 is pretty nice already and I feel it’s worth the extra cost over u1. For that matter, I think it’s worth trying out kawai uprights of similar build like k500. While you are at the dealers, you may as well try some smaller grands also. I personally feel like a small grand vs a taller upright is a matter of compromise based on one’s priorities in a piano. Only you and your family can decide what you value in your next piano. Good luck and keep us posted!
Posted By: Lady Bird Re: Getting an upright piano - 02/27/21 05:30 AM
Well generally a 130 size good piano will have a much better bass . So as I mentioned earlier a good upright can be better than a small grand. However if one wants a grand then there is no.argument.
Posted By: fibbi Re: Getting an upright piano - 02/27/21 06:47 AM
Thank you for the suggestions. I will try the kawaii most likely this weekend. Today I played a Fazioli grand in the showroom. It's great! It's on par with the steinway grand price (didn't pay attention to the model). I thought Fazioli would be out of reach but actually similar price point comparing with Steinway. Anyway, that was for fun since grand would be future time when I move. Now make me think that for similar price, would I get Steinway or Fazioli ? I am a bit biased to favour the Steinway sound, but hm... tough choice. Anyway, it's not what I'm going worry about now. :P

Right now I live with parents and I don't want to take away their living room with my piano...so back to upright...

Now I started to have some concern that since my room isn't that big (10x12) and with office desk, ikea shelf, and the room itself is pretty cramp, would the YUS5 be too loud (with all those sound reflection or echo)? The piano opens up as pull the book ledge towards me. And it would be louder. In the show room I also can feel that YUS5 is louder than U3.

Yes I'm still finding pleasently surprised for the Sailer ED126. I like the sound and touch. But always have some concern about Indonesian built. At last, I'm spending >15K (if the ED126, and more for the U3/YUS5) and hope to have a piano that last for decades (yes I will be sure keep the tuning schedule, no matter regular play or not). Mass produce in Indonesia just doesn't click on me yet. Maybe I'm biased, since I don't really have much experience with this brand nor the place that build piano. I mean Indonesia does not seem to have long history of building piano. I don't have the peace of mind yet. (it's like would you prefer Mexico built car or German build car, even same brand?)

Nevertheless, I have learnt a lot in the discussion and I never think my first post would generate 4 pages and up! laugh
Keep it going, upright or not, I still learn. And also thanks to everyone who share their experience / knowledge and I sure benefit from it. I will keep that in mind for future reference too.
Posted By: Lady Bird Re: Getting an upright piano - 02/27/21 07:06 AM
fibbi
Just get the Fazioli and make us all jealous!
Posted By: fibbi Re: Getting an upright piano - 02/27/21 07:12 AM
Originally Posted by Lady Bird
fibbi
Just get the Fazioli and make us all jealous!

I wish one day . But reality check most likely to get a Yamaha or sauter . Unless I get the lotto jackpot *dream dream*
Posted By: Hakki Re: Getting an upright piano - 02/27/21 08:00 AM
Hope you find your dream piano one day.

Posted By: Sidokar Re: Getting an upright piano - 02/27/21 09:35 AM
I dont find the price quality and musicality to be really good for the YUS5. In that price range try the SU 118. It is a smaller upright but soundwise it is getting closer to german models. It is less bright and has more harmonics. It may be also a better fit with your space, the YUS5 is really pretty tall and loud.
Posted By: LarryK Re: Getting an upright piano - 02/27/21 10:47 AM
Originally Posted by Sidokar
I dont find the price quality and musicality to be really good for the YUS5. In that price range try the SU 118. It is a smaller upright but soundwise it is getting closer to german models. It is less bright and has more harmonics. It may be also a better fit with your space, the YUS5 is really pretty tall and loud.

The YUS5 is not a timid piano, it can be loud and bold. I like it. It has real presence. I have a DYUS5, one with the Disklavier model, and I can have it play downstairs and hear it well upstairs in my office, but my house is kind of like a folded horn speaker and so, I hear everything well, up the stairs, including my stereo.

I don’t feel the piano is as loud when I play it but, it can go loud. I guess it’s all about what suits your room, and your wallet, haha.
Posted By: Lady Bird Re: Getting an upright piano - 02/27/21 03:21 PM
Well I suppose you do not want another Kawai although the K500 is really the nicest piano at a very reasonable price level you could get. Probably it will not be as loud as a U3 in your small room., but a wonderful piano at a good price.( a mellow sounding piano will not appear too loud in a small room.) It is best to make an appointment with Louen House ( the Kawai dealer) Ask if they have a K500 available. (they should do)
Have you tried any of the W Hoffmann uprights at showcase pianos. They are made in the Bechstein factory in the Czech Republic. (see Showcase pianos )
They have a really nice tone although some apparently can be quite bright.
Are you still dreaming of the Sauter at all ?
Posted By: gwing Re: Getting an upright piano - 02/27/21 04:41 PM
Originally Posted by pianoloverus
Originally Posted by Lady Bird
Yes a better quality upright is better than a not so good grand I have an upright which certainly outshines quite a few grands...
Statements like this are not useful because there is no agreement on "better quality" and "not so good".

Not every post needs to analyse in detail the characteristics of two pianos, not every poster even wants to try to quantify and analyse everything, some people just have a preference and know which they like the most without needing to know why that is so opinions. Here on the forum there are a lot of us that do over analyse though :-)
Posted By: SonatainfSharp Re: Getting an upright piano - 02/27/21 04:54 PM
Yes, Fazioli prices are now more in line Steinway. From people I have talked to that either own or sell both, all agree that Fazioli is a piano and Steinway is just furniture. 😆
Posted By: Lady Bird Re: Getting an upright piano - 02/27/21 05:07 PM
Well perhaps I should say it again .,OK here goes --

°My Schimmel K132 is a better piano with a better tonal quality and response than many grands." 🌹💐🍃🌹

(Quite a few owners of good uprights will know this to be true.)
Posted By: LarryK Re: Getting an upright piano - 02/27/21 05:34 PM
Originally Posted by SonatainfSharp
Yes, Fazioli prices are now more in line Steinway. From people I have talked to that either own or sell both, all agree that Fazioli is a piano and Steinway is just furniture. 😆

Let's just say that all pianos are noisy black boxes and not pick on any particular brand. One of my friends, a teacher in a music school, holds this opinion, after having dealt with so many students who are piano bangers. He does not teach piano, lol.
Posted By: SonatainfSharp Re: Getting an upright piano - 02/27/21 06:12 PM
Originally Posted by LarryK
Originally Posted by SonatainfSharp
Yes, Fazioli prices are now more in line Steinway. From people I have talked to that either own or sell both, all agree that Fazioli is a piano and Steinway is just furniture. 😆

Let's just say that all pianos are noisy black boxes and not pick on any particular brand. One of my friends, a teacher in a music school, holds this opinion, after having dealt with so many students who are piano bangers. He does not teach piano, lol.
Ha! Just like at my day job we aren’t troubleshooting the technology; rather we are troubleshooting the technicians!
Posted By: pianoloverus Re: Getting an upright piano - 02/27/21 06:23 PM
Originally Posted by gwing
Originally Posted by pianoloverus
Originally Posted by Lady Bird
Yes a better quality upright is better than a not so good grand I have an upright which certainly outshines quite a few grands...
Statements like this are not useful because there is no agreement on "better quality" and "not so good".

Not every post needs to analyse in detail the characteristics of two pianos, not every poster even wants to try to quantify and analyse everything, some people just have a preference and know which they like the most without needing to know why that is so opinions. Here on the forum there are a lot of us that do over analyse though :-)
It was not a question of over analyzing. The statement I quoted is so unqualified that it's just plain wrong.
Posted By: Lady Bird Re: Getting an upright piano - 02/27/21 06:34 PM
Then you have not been playing some cheaper models of popular grands around recently or some of the excellent upright pianos .It is SO easy to see, feel or hear this. (of course I am not going to mention those grands by name or model)

Just because a piano a grand does not mean it's better than all uprights.Surely that's common sense ?
Posted By: dogperson Re: Getting an upright piano - 02/27/21 07:11 PM
Originally Posted by Lady Bird
Then you have not been playing some cheaper models of popular grands around recently or some of the excellent upright pianos .It is SO easy to see, feel or hear this. (of course I am not going to mention those grands by name or model)

Just because a piano a grand does not mean it's better than all uprights.Surely that's common sense ?


Why not a comparison of high end uprights to grands in the same price range? It would even the playing field in any comparison
Posted By: LarryK Re: Getting an upright piano - 02/27/21 07:27 PM
Originally Posted by SonatainfSharp
Originally Posted by LarryK
Originally Posted by SonatainfSharp
Yes, Fazioli prices are now more in line Steinway. From people I have talked to that either own or sell both, all agree that Fazioli is a piano and Steinway is just furniture. 😆

Let's just say that all pianos are noisy black boxes and not pick on any particular brand. One of my friends, a teacher in a music school, holds this opinion, after having dealt with so many students who are piano bangers. He does not teach piano, lol.
Ha! Just like at my day job we aren’t troubleshooting the technology; rather we are troubleshooting the technicians!

Oh, the player is far more likely to be the problem than the piano, especially when comparing high end Steinways to Faziolis.

Should I ignore the playing of Horowitz because he played on a Steinway? I care about emotion, and I can feel that in music played on a Steinway as well as music played on a Fazioli, and I've heard both live, of course.
Posted By: Lady Bird Re: Getting an upright piano - 02/27/21 07:33 PM
Yes I tried to ignor the reaction from pianoloverus originally.
But then it seemed to be reffered to again. A comparison with a Kawai K500 and with some of the GL series may bring about more conflict from some here.
I personally would not compare my upright to a small Schimmel grand because I think differences would be greater than comparing some of those Kawai pianos.(depending on model and size) Perhaps it would sound far better than a small Wilhelm Schimmel ? However I have not tried those recently.

Generally it is better not to compare , sometimes for practical reasons it becomes necessary.For some people comparing any upright with a grand seems to be an insult which is unfortunate.
Posted By: Lady Bird Re: Getting an upright piano - 02/27/21 07:48 PM
The OP obviously needs a good upright piano and not a grand .She has made that clear.Besides what on earth is the Steinway grand about ?
Posted By: fibbi Re: Getting an upright piano - 02/27/21 09:06 PM
Originally Posted by Lady Bird
Well I suppose you do not want another Kawai although the K500 is really the nicest piano at a very reasonable price level you could get. Probably it will not be as loud as a U3 in your small room., but a wonderful piano at a good price.( a mellow sounding piano will not appear too loud in a small room.) It is best to make an appointment with Louen House ( the Kawai dealer) Ask if they have a K500 available. (they should do)
Have you tried any of the W Hoffmann uprights at showcase pianos. They are made in the Bechstein factory in the Czech Republic. (see Showcase pianos )
They have a really nice tone although some apparently can be quite bright.
Are you still dreaming of the Sauter at all ?

I tried Hoffmann as well. It's ok but doesn't really appeal to me. Sauter upright...nah...out of question it's 40K . And even open box is 28K ..which is surely too much money to pay for upright, because utimately, in a few years we do plan to move and at that point I will highly consider the grand. If I don't consider grand at all then I would consider the Sauter price range. I also tried the Bechstein as well. Love it too. 35K...also not something I would consider at this point...

I will try the Kawaii as well. And let you guys know how I feel about it. smile

Regarding the room, my house has floor heating so I *think* it absorb/block more sound with the concrete floor? Than comparing to all wood structure? I worry less of the sound travel to upstair but I worry just too loud for a small room.
Posted By: Hakki Re: Getting an upright piano - 02/27/21 09:09 PM
Posted By: dogperson Re: Getting an upright piano - 02/27/21 09:28 PM
Hakki
Why don’t you start a new thread: ‘why you should always buy a grand’?
Continuing to post about grands where the OP has decided an upright is appropriate at this point in time just doesn’t feel right.
Posted By: twocats Re: Getting an upright piano - 02/27/21 09:32 PM
I don't know if you have a Grotrian dealer in your area, but I very briefly played a Wilhelm Grotrian upright (their budget model around $11-12K on the sticker) and it was a very sweet sounding piano. Apparently these are assembled in Asia but finished in Germany.
Posted By: SonatainfSharp Re: Getting an upright piano - 02/27/21 09:32 PM
So many people seem to place their grands in a corner and play them into a wall just go get them to “fit”. Hmmm.
Posted By: pianoloverus Re: Getting an upright piano - 02/27/21 10:23 PM
Originally Posted by Hakki
That video is beyond unconvincing in the first part where it tries to show a small 5'1"grand and vertical take up the same amount of space.
Posted By: fibbi Re: Getting an upright piano - 02/27/21 11:32 PM
Originally Posted by SonatainfSharp
So many people seem to place their grands in a corner and play them into a wall just go get them to “fit”. Hmmm.

same here...why would we face the grand to the wall is the grand supposed to project the sound outside? Why project the sound towards the wall????
Posted By: Lady Bird Re: Getting an upright piano - 02/28/21 12:27 AM
Originally Posted by fibbi
Originally Posted by Lady Bird
Well I suppose you do not want another Kawai although the K500 is really the nicest piano at a very reasonable price level you could get. Probably it will not be as loud as a U3 in your small room., but a wonderful piano at a good price.( a mellow sounding piano will not appear too loud in a small room.) It is best to make an appointment with Louen House ( the Kawai dealer) Ask if they have a K500 available. (they should do)
Have you tried any of the W Hoffmann uprights at showcase pianos. They are made in the Bechstein factory in the Czech Republic. (see Showcase pianos )
They have a really nice tone although some apparently can be quite bright.
Are you still dreaming of the Sauter at all ?

I tried Hoffmann as well. It's ok but doesn't really appeal to me. Sauter upright...nah...out of question it's 40K . And even open box is 28K ..which is surely too much money to pay for upright, because utimately, in a few years we do plan to move and at that point I will highly consider the grand. If I don't consider grand at all then I would consider the Sauter price range. I also tried the Bechstein as well. Love it too. 35K...also not something I would consider at this point...

I will try the Kawaii as well. And let you guys know how I feel about it. smile

Regarding the room, my house has floor heating so I *think* it absorb/block more sound with the concrete floor? Than comparing to all wood structure? I worry less of the sound travel to upstair but I worry just too loud for a small room.
Well perhaps you should have your piano attended to by a good tech. (if you are getting grand in a few years ) You cannot compare a Sauter to budget level upright. It is an excellent instrument for those who do not want just a run of the mill piano. However if you buy a U1 or U3 you probably would get a full trade up for a CX2. (you would also make Hakki's day) 🤣
Posted By: DFSRN Re: Getting an upright piano - 02/28/21 02:54 AM
I have a YUS 5, I get it tuned every 2 months. If you play it or not, it goes out of tune. I also have a humidifier and dehumidifier and the room stays between 40 - 50 RH. Minimum tuning should be twice a year to keep the stings stretched. If you only tune every few years, it is not going to hold a tune. I bought the YUS 5 due to not wanting to dedicate space for a baby grand. If this is your life piano, I think it is worth the jump between U3 and YUS 5. I did buy mine new about 5 years ago.
Posted By: Beemer Re: Getting an upright piano - 02/28/21 12:46 PM
Originally Posted by Hakki
Why did you post this video without making any comment? Here are mine:
Why did he not position the upright across the marked floor width?
He unfairly denigrated the upright's using the terms 'box', 'significant', 'sacrifices' and 'compromises' regarding its tone and action. By implication he thinks that all uprights are inferior to a 5'1" 'Baby Grand'.
To me his tie tells it all about this biased 'education department. salesman.
Ian
Posted By: Lady Bird Re: Getting an upright piano - 02/28/21 07:41 PM
Yes one gets so tired of an upright being reffered to as a "box," It so tiresome because there is so much ignorance about the whole subject.
Posted By: Wry Guy Re: Getting an upright piano - 02/28/21 08:07 PM
It's just so crude.

A house is a box with a roof. A car is a box with wheels. An oven is a box you cook things in. A shower is a box you clean yourself in. And your toilet is a box for... well, you get the point.

Nobody refers to these things as "boxes" because it is an obvious oversimplification that, while perhaps technically true from a certain perspective, would lead directly to confusion and misunderstanding or at the very least less than efficient communication.

I'd walk straight out of that salesman's store, and tell him to crawl back into his box on the way out.
Posted By: Lady Bird Re: Getting an upright piano - 02/28/21 08:12 PM
Originally Posted by Wry Guy
It's just so crude.

A house is a box with a roof. A car is a box with wheels. An oven is a box you cook things in. A shower is a box you clean yourself in. And your toilet is a box for... well, you get the point.

Nobody refers to these things as "boxes" because it is an obvious oversimplification that, while perhaps technically true from a certain perspective, would lead directly to confusion and misunderstanding or at the very least less than efficient communication.

I'd walk straight out of that salesman's store, and tell him to crawl back into his box on the way out.
I think you have made our day !
Posted By: LarryK Re: Getting an upright piano - 02/28/21 11:42 PM
At least I called all pianos, noisy boxes, so I think I'm in the clear. I didn't disparage uprights as boxes without insulting grands at the same time, lol.
Posted By: DFSRN Re: Getting an upright piano - 03/01/21 12:36 AM
That sales person must be only talking to very knowledgeable pianist, from that commercial as a hobbyist I would think the Steinway upright is not that good, so if I was in the market for an upright, I would bypass that one. The way he presented, don't get the Steinway upright. When I first started lessons 7 years ago, I did not know what tone and color was, he is over some peoples knowledge level. I would have presented it as from the beginner to the accomplished pianist have two wonderful choices to fit your needs.

People base decisions on space, ability level, cost, and personal values. For me, I wanted a new piano and a quality piano. I considered space and my ability level at that time which was about 1 and a half years of lessons and went with the YUS 5. As a hobbyist can't justify paying more for a piano. When it comes to a piano (for the average person) do you enjoy it and are you having fun............that really all that counts.
Posted By: pianoloverus Re: Getting an upright piano - 03/01/21 01:18 AM
Originally Posted by SonatainfSharp
Yes, Fazioli prices are now more in line Steinway. From people I have talked to that either own or sell both, all agree that Fazioli is a piano and Steinway is just furniture. 😆
Hard to figure out even what you mean by this. It's certainly not true, and I don't see any humor if that was intended.
Posted By: Lady Bird Re: Getting an upright piano - 03/01/21 01:29 AM
I am "slow" today , I thought the salesman was talking about Steinways? (I do not think Steinways make such a small Baby grand ? ) Now I see it is a different brand.
Posted By: Lady Bird Re: Getting an upright piano - 03/01/21 01:37 AM
Originally Posted by pianoloverus
Originally Posted by SonatainfSharp
Yes, Fazioli prices are now more in line Steinway. From people I have talked to that either own or sell both, all agree that Fazioli is a piano and Steinway is just furniture. 😆
Hard to figure out even what you mean by this. It's certainly not true, and I don't see any humor if that was intended.
Perhaps its just his experience of some of those pianos lately pianoloverus ?
Posted By: Lady Bird Re: Getting an upright piano - 03/01/21 06:14 AM
Originally Posted by Lady Bird
Originally Posted by pianoloverus
Originally Posted by SonatainfSharp
Yes, Fazioli prices are now more in line Steinway. From people I have talked to that either own or sell both, all agree that Fazioli is a piano and Steinway is just furniture. 😆
Hard to figure out even what you mean by this. It's certainly not true, and I don't see any humor if that was intended.
Perhaps its just his experience of some of those pianos lately pianoloverus ?
I agree Steinway grands still rate very high. I have played a few very nice ones since I have been in Canada. The one M the bass strings were rattling rather a lot .I suppose that could have been adjusted .
The K52 confuses me because they can be improved withthout too much effort.(my thought) There is more in there "somewhere" that the Boston 132 does not have.(was my thought) But we should be careful and not just dismiss them .
Posted By: fibbi Re: Getting an upright piano - 03/01/21 07:52 AM
OK...this weekend I went to a Kawaii dealership. I had tried the K400, K500, and GL50 and another GX (forgot the model). I think, if I am getting the first piano, I would get the K400. I prefer K400 to K500, as I am looking for upright. Kawai is also cheaper than Yamaha, which is good.
The touch, the sound is just so familiar that it actually feels like I'm playing my home piano. This is how my own piano used to feel when it's newer.

But at this point, I don't really want to have same piano and I'd like to have something different. So I think , most likely I'll go with Yamaha U3 or YuS5. But I admit that price point, sound, and feel, and if I'd never had Kawai before, I would get this one (K400 I mean).
Posted By: fibbi Re: Getting an upright piano - 03/01/21 08:35 AM
Originally Posted by DFSRN
I have a YUS 5, I get it tuned every 2 months. If you play it or not, it goes out of tune. I also have a humidifier and dehumidifier and the room stays between 40 - 50 RH. Minimum tuning should be twice a year to keep the stings stretched. If you only tune every few years, it is not going to hold a tune. I bought the YUS 5 due to not wanting to dedicate space for a baby grand. If this is your life piano, I think it is worth the jump between U3 and YUS 5. I did buy mine new about 5 years ago.

Thank you for sharing!
May I ask are you tuning every 2 months in general (regardless of piano) or this particular YUS5 requires that frequent tuning? Or you play 10 hours a day? smile
Tuning every 2 months is some sort of expense ... OK I know people would say we spent $20K on piano why not $100/month...But one is fixed cost (that I save), one is running cost...so...
Posted By: LarryK Re: Getting an upright piano - 03/01/21 10:36 AM
I’m in the first year of ownership of my DYUS5 and I’m getting it turned every three months. Yes, it goes out of tune whether it is played or not. My technician told me that pianos change a lot in the first year, and it seems to be true. He has worked hard on it, takes his time, and does an excellent job. I’ll probably stick to every three months, forever.

What interval do other people suggest?
Posted By: gwing Re: Getting an upright piano - 03/01/21 10:56 AM
Originally Posted by LarryK
I’m in the first year of ownership of my DYUS5 and I’m getting it turned every three months. Yes, it goes out of tune whether it is played or not. My technician told me that pianos change a lot in the first year, and it seems to be true. He has worked hard on it, takes his time, and does an excellent job. I’ll probably stick to every three months, forever.

What interval do other people suggest?

Well, I would have liked to have my piano tuned four times in the first year and twice a year after that but I'm struggling to get a tuner in these Covid times.

My K800 held its tuning very well from new and received its first tuning after four months - if possible I would have had that done six weeks earlier. It has now been almost another 8 months since that first tuning and I'm back to trying get hold of that unicorn tuner again, to be fair I now have the humidity under much better control and even now after 8 months it is less out of tune than at 2 months after first purchase and is still playable. (By better humidity control I mean that the room has been always within a 2% humidity range, better than the specs from the dehumidifier's manufacturer would suggest, compared to a previous 25% range)
Posted By: Hakki Re: Getting an upright piano - 03/01/21 01:26 PM
IMO, it is safe to go with the U3 for tuning stability. The proven Yamaha model over decades.

https://www.richardlawsonpianos.com/blog/need-know-yamaha-u3-piano/

Here is one of our forum members complaining about the tuning stability of his YUS-5.
He had bought it new in 2017 and it still had tuning problems in 2019.

http://forum.pianoworld.com/ubbthreads.php/topics/2867470/1.html
Posted By: SonatainfSharp Re: Getting an upright piano - 03/01/21 01:26 PM
Originally Posted by pianoloverus
Originally Posted by SonatainfSharp
Yes, Fazioli prices are now more in line Steinway. From people I have talked to that either own or sell both, all agree that Fazioli is a piano and Steinway is just furniture. 😆
Hard to figure out even what you mean by this. It's certainly not true, and I don't see any humor if that was intended.
Well, I mean someone actually told me, "When people come in to buy a S&S they buy it as nice furniture, but if they come in to buy something to play, they buy a Fazioli." I then shared this with piano friends of mine who are far more players than I ever was, and they both chuckled and agreed. So therefore the fact that someone said it and people agreed is true, right? I mean someone literally told me that, and two people agreed. It might not line up with your narrative and no one said that you have to agree with it, but the fact they said it is true. That is a fact.

You said, "It's certainly not true," but I don't remember you being there with me when it was said to me, so how would you know?

Just to be clear, I am saying that someone SAID it is true, not if you agree with it. (Not that they said it so it must BE true.) I hope that makes sense.

Sorry?
Posted By: pianoloverus Re: Getting an upright piano - 03/01/21 01:52 PM
Originally Posted by SonatainfSharp
Originally Posted by pianoloverus
Originally Posted by SonatainfSharp
Yes, Fazioli prices are now more in line Steinway. From people I have talked to that either own or sell both, all agree that Fazioli is a piano and Steinway is just furniture. 😆
Hard to figure out even what you mean by this. It's certainly not true, and I don't see any humor if that was intended.
Well, I mean someone actually told me, "When people come in to buy a S&S they buy it as nice furniture, but if they come in to buy something to play, they buy a Fazioli." I then shared this with piano friends of mine who are far more players than I ever was, and they both chuckled and agreed. So therefore the fact that someone said it and people agreed is true, right? I mean someone literally told me that, and two people agreed. It might not line up with your narrative and no one said that you have to agree with it, but the fact they said it is true. That is a fact.

You said, "It's certainly not true," but I don't remember you being there with me when it was said to me, so how would you know?

Just to be clear, I am saying that someone SAID it is true, not if you agree with it. (Not that they said it so it must BE true.) I hope that makes sense.

Sorry?
It's true that some people buy Steinway just for prestige or the furniture aspect(both reasons are perfectly fine) and some probably do the same for Fazioli, but it's not true that everyone who buys a Steinway buys it for its furniture aspect. So it's not true that that "Fazioli is a piano and Steinway is just furniture" even if some dealers or pianists said so. In fact, I would call that statement outrageous.

Some people like to bash Steinway or bash people who they think are buying a piano only for its furniture aspect. I'm not a Steinway fanboy, but I think this is unfortunate.
Posted By: SonatainfSharp Re: Getting an upright piano - 03/01/21 01:58 PM
I agree with you totally. I was just sharing what was told to me because the point of these forums is to hear opinions and thoughts of all sides (no matter how outlandish), because if everyone agreed, then we would get nowhere. I also made it very clear (I hope) that it was TOLD to me; it wasn't my OWN opinion. And like anything, it takes extreme craziness on both sides to be able to meet in the middle eventually.

Would I take a S&S if it were given to me at a deal I couldn't refuse? Of course! (Well, most of the time; can't say all of the time.) But I also find great interest in those who have the opposite to say, providing we can determine if they are simply bashing out of jealously or genuinely have something constructive to say in opposition.

Prior to finding these forums c2005, I thought S&S was the best, end-all-be-all until I started reading opposition here and the convincing reasons for it. Then I was like, wait, hold the phone. It's been a fascinating ride ever since.

(Reading my post again, I know it comes across as argumentative, but it wasn't supposed to be, I promise.)
Posted By: fibbi Re: Getting an upright piano - 03/01/21 05:36 PM
Thanks it's good to know.
Posted By: Hakki Re: Getting an upright piano - 03/01/21 05:45 PM
Originally Posted by fibbi
Thanks it's good to know.

You’re welcome.
Posted By: DFSRN Re: Getting an upright piano - 03/02/21 12:58 AM
Fibbi, he charges $100 per tuning, so that is $600 a year. This is my hobby, my way of thinking a running cost of $600 a year for maintenance is really reasonable when considering what others pay for hobbies. I also take lessons, which I consider an investment in myself especially when considering mental health benefits. For example, some of my husbands friends are into competitive fishing and have bass boats and all those associated costs. The piano holds a tune pretty well, I just like to play a tuned piano. He told has a couple of customers that have monthly tunings that have pianos in the range of 100,000. This is my life piano. I started piano 7 years ago with a $600 keyboard, then added a Clavinova, and about a year and a half into lessons bought the YUS 5, never regretted it. I enjoy it every day of the week.
Posted By: DFSRN Re: Getting an upright piano - 03/02/21 01:06 AM
Hakki, I never had any tuning issues with the YUS 5. Bought it new and had it 5 years. However, I do have it tuned every 2 months, just like a tuned piano. My teacher who has been playing about 25 years and is master's prepared pianist said he never heard my piano out of tune. My tuner also restores pianos and has tuned for Yamaha warranty issues. I have been happy with this piano so far.
Posted By: DFSRN Re: Getting an upright piano - 03/02/21 01:10 AM
LarryK the first couple of years (bought YUS 5 new) it did not hold a tune as well. I get it tuned every 2 months, 5 years into the piano the tuner said it is just some minor adjustments, the upper register gets a bit flat but said you would need a really well trained hear to hear it. I would say into the 3rd year the piano was becoming stabilized with hold the tuning.
Posted By: DFSRN Re: Getting an upright piano - 03/02/21 01:12 AM
Fibbi, I practice about 2 hours a day, if I have time off from work it may be a bit more.
Posted By: DFSRN Re: Getting an upright piano - 03/02/21 01:16 AM
Fibbi, I looked at both the U3 and YUS 5. There is about a $5,000 difference in price. I considered this is my life time piano and could afford the difference in the price, so I went with the YUS 5. Even the store owner, whose family has been in business over 75 years, told me between the two if you can afford the difference, the YUS 5 was worth the price difference, I am glad I went with it and have no regrets.
Posted By: Hakki Re: Getting an upright piano - 03/02/21 02:08 AM
Originally Posted by DFSRN
Hakki, I never had any tuning issues with the YUS 5.

Originally Posted by DFSRN
LarryK the first couple of years (bought YUS 5 new) it did not hold a tune as well. I get it tuned every 2 months, 5 years into the piano the tuner said it is just some minor adjustments, the upper register gets a bit flat but said you would need a really well trained hear to hear it. I would say into the 3rd year the piano was becoming stabilized with hold the tuning.

Fibbi, it looks like there might be tuning stability issues for the first 2 years. But after that it is said to stabilize.

Normally it is suggested that a new piano should be tuned four times the first year and twice a year after that.
Posted By: Hakki Re: Getting an upright piano - 03/02/21 02:26 AM
BTW, in these 3 cases (RonaldSteinway, LarryK, DFSRN) we don’t know whether a pitch raise was involved.

That would make things more complicated.
Posted By: LarryK Re: Getting an upright piano - 03/02/21 03:02 AM
Originally Posted by Hakki
BTW, in these 3 cases (RonaldSteinway, LarryK, DFSRN) we don’t know whether a pitch raise was involved.

That would make things more complicated.

So, my piano story is a bit complicated. I received the DYUS5 in its crate, after it was shipped to a dealer in New Jersey at the beginning of last year, but, since I had moved from New York to Pittsburgh because of the pandemic, the dealer never took the piano out of its crate.

All of this meant that the piano had had no work done on it before I received it.

I got the piano late last year, in September, I believe, and it had its first tuning done on November 9th, when it was raised 13 cycles per second (cps) to A442.

I just had the second tuning done on February 4th, and it was raised 8cps to A444.

Can anybody conclude anything from this information? I suppose I am willing to wait years for it to settle down.
Posted By: Hakki Re: Getting an upright piano - 03/02/21 03:31 AM
So it was about 50 cents pitch raise in November and than about 30 cents pitch raise in February.

Your piano will need several tunings until it gets stable.

Not years but, let’s say months.
Posted By: Lady Bird Re: Getting an upright piano - 03/02/21 03:34 AM
For new pianos I heard after 6 tunings the piano should start holding very well . I have not had hardly any tuning loss of the the new Schimmel .(nothing stands out).It's free tuning was on the 24th December.
It had been tuned at least twice in the store and been prepped. It had been about a month from the warehouse at the store before we received it.
From what I heard is that when it was unpacked the piano was still almost in tune.It had been in the warehouse since 2018 .( Hermetically sealed, the warehouse climate controlled)
Posted By: dogperson Re: Getting an upright piano - 03/02/21 03:47 AM
Originally Posted by Hakki
So it was about 50 cents pitch raise in November and than about 30 cents pitch raise in February.

Your piano will need several tunings until it gets stable.

Not years but, let’s say months.


Wouldn’t this be expected with any piano bought of the crate? You lose all of the dealer prep during its time in the showroom floor, and that work is transferred to your home.
Posted By: Hakki Re: Getting an upright piano - 03/02/21 03:55 AM
Fibbi, I stand corrected.

RonaldSteinway might have gone through the same route as LarryK too.

So the verdict is, get a floor model that has gone through dealer prep.
Posted By: Lady Bird Re: Getting an upright piano - 03/02/21 04:01 AM
Originally Posted by Hakki
BTW, in these 3 cases (RonaldSteinway, LarryK, DFSRN) we don’t know whether a pitch raise was involved.

That would make things more complicated.
I am just curious why would it make it more complicated?
Posted By: Hakki Re: Getting an upright piano - 03/02/21 04:20 AM
Originally Posted by Lady Bird
Originally Posted by Hakki
BTW, in these 3 cases (RonaldSteinway, LarryK, DFSRN) we don’t know whether a pitch raise was involved.

That would make things more complicated.
I am just curious why would it make it more complicated?

Just meant that additional tunings would be required.

You might find detailed information about pitch raise here or in similar sites:

https://www.total-piano-care.com/pitch-raise.html
Posted By: Lady Bird Re: Getting an upright piano - 03/02/21 05:04 AM
Oh yes I know of a pitch raise. I had to have it on my old U1.
( my fault neglecting that piano) I had to keep having strings replaced on my old Kawai grand so neglected the U1 ? 🤔
Posted By: fibbi Re: Getting an upright piano - 03/02/21 05:52 AM
Originally Posted by DFSRN
Fibbi, he charges $100 per tuning, so that is $600 a year. This is my hobby, my way of thinking a running cost of $600 a year for maintenance is really reasonable when considering what others pay for hobbies. I also take lessons, which I consider an investment in myself especially when considering mental health benefits. For example, some of my husbands friends are into competitive fishing and have bass boats and all those associated costs. The piano holds a tune pretty well, I just like to play a tuned piano. He told has a couple of customers that have monthly tunings that have pianos in the range of 100,000. This is my life piano. I started piano 7 years ago with a $600 keyboard, then added a Clavinova, and about a year and a half into lessons bought the YUS 5, never regretted it. I enjoy it every day of the week.

OK just mean that I have to be prepared more tuning in the first year (or 2) . I need to budget this expense. Thank you for sure I learn something new. As I haven't got any new piano in 40 years...I don't even remember how often I tune back then when I purchase new. I only remember I turn once a year for the most part...
Posted By: Lady Bird Re: Getting an upright piano - 03/02/21 06:04 AM
For a U3 ( I do not know about a YUS) 3 tunings this year
and 2 next year should be fine. The loss of tuning will be subtle .I cannot imagine even after 2 tunings that the piano will be terribly out of tune. Remember you get one free tuning. They probably would do touch up voicing if you ask .( you probably will need a little,especially in the higher notes)
It will settle down after a few months I am sure.
Posted By: LarryK Re: Getting an upright piano - 03/02/21 11:50 AM
Originally Posted by Hakki
Fibbi, I stand corrected.

RonaldSteinway might have gone through the same route as LarryK too.

So the verdict is, get a floor model that has gone through dealer prep.

Agreed, but I got a great deal on the DYUS5 after having ordered the DYUS1. Because of the pandemic, Yamaha could not meet their delivery schedule, and they take schedules seriously. The DYUS5 was in country, in California, so I paid a modest up charge to have it shipped to the East Coast.

It’s a wonderful piano, one that I had not been expecting to receive, so, how can I not be happy? I’ll pay for three or four tunings a year. I’m not the kind of person who ignores the maintenance aspects of things. The piano was really out tune back in November but it is much better now.

I’m planning on replacing my furnace with a hybrid gas/heat pump system that claims to provide more even humidity levels so that should help the tuning stability.
Posted By: fibbi Re: Getting an upright piano - 03/14/21 08:00 AM
So my piano shopping continues and this time is more on talking pricing...
My choice is still down to U3, YUS5 and Sauter 130.
The price different (after discount) is $3K between U3 and YUS5, and Sauter is $12K more than YUS5 (if new), but $6000 more if I take the Sauter floor display model. And grandpa is willing to sponsor the extra $6000 if I do go with the Sauter. (yay lucky me)

So what I want to know is that...how would you feel to take a floor model vs new? YUS5 is in stock that I can take brand new. But Sauter 130 I would have to order, but even I don't mind the wait, the total 3xxxx price is really out of the question.

Personally I love the Sauter 130 sound. The YUS5 I like and I would be satisfy too ... It's a huge jump from what I currently have. But of course Sauter 130 is what I really love, out of all upright I try.

Btw, I try the two Steinway upright in a different show room, it was actually better than what I tried in the other showroom. I don't really LOVE but at least it doesn't sound as bad. So I think how the piano is prep or tune does make a huge difference.
Posted By: ColonelBogey Re: Getting an upright piano - 03/14/21 08:24 AM
Dont hesitate to take the floor display Sauter. 6000 i a good discount, the piano has been stored in controlled conditions and probably not been played that much. Not much could go wrong. Actually, the brand new Sauter might not as nice as the one you know you like.
The dealer will put the floor display in mint shape on delivery.
Posted By: twocats Re: Getting an upright piano - 03/14/21 09:06 AM
Floor model can actually be preferable to brand new! It's been played and maintained and the sound should be "broken in" and the tunings will be more stable smile
Posted By: Hakki Re: Getting an upright piano - 03/14/21 09:21 AM
I would definitely get the U3, make an agreement with the dealer for an upgrade to a grand in exchange of the U3, and save the $9k for the grand that you are planning to get when you move in a couple of years.
Posted By: dogperson Re: Getting an upright piano - 03/14/21 10:32 AM
Originally Posted by Hakki
I would definitely get the U3, make an agreement with the dealer for an upgrade to a grand in exchange of the U3, and save the $9k for the grand that you are planning to get when you move in a couple of years.

You’re recommending to definitely get the third choice? For a possible trade in for a grand that has not even been selected? It would be the last choice I would make, as it would tie the next piano purchase to this particular dealer, and a piano I didn’t really like would be moved into my home. But I try to make decisions based on flexibility and also what would provide pleasure. The bigger house may not happen as quickly as hoped.

I would buy the Sauter—- it would provide pleasure NOW. If, and when, there is a decision to buy a grand, it can be sold or traded in.

If you have a piano you love to play, there could also be a decision that a grand is not needed.
Posted By: gwing Re: Getting an upright piano - 03/14/21 10:46 AM
Originally Posted by fibbi
Originally Posted by DFSRN
Fibbi, he charges $100 per tuning, so that is $600 a year. This is my hobby, my way of thinking a running cost of $600 a year for maintenance is really reasonable when considering what others pay for hobbies. I also take lessons, which I consider an investment in myself especially when considering mental health benefits. For example, some of my husbands friends are into competitive fishing and have bass boats and all those associated costs. The piano holds a tune pretty well, I just like to play a tuned piano. He told has a couple of customers that have monthly tunings that have pianos in the range of 100,000. This is my life piano. I started piano 7 years ago with a $600 keyboard, then added a Clavinova, and about a year and a half into lessons bought the YUS 5, never regretted it. I enjoy it every day of the week.

OK just mean that I have to be prepared more tuning in the first year (or 2) . I need to budget this expense. Thank you for sure I learn something new. As I haven't got any new piano in 40 years...I don't even remember how often I tune back then when I purchase new. I only remember I turn once a year for the most part...

For the sake of any newcomers here I'll just offer a perspective that a new piano will first need some initial tuning and time to settle which you would expect to have already done if purchasing a floor model at a dealers that has been there for some time, (but not if it is fresh out of the crate) this would represent at least two tunings that as a customer we would normally never see. Then after purchase we would perhaps get three or four tunings in the first year as it settles down and stabilises, then two or three the next year and two a year after that. Outside of this forum most people would I think have their piano tuned only half as often as we suggest or sadly sometimes not at all, it would be fair to say we are all/mostly a bit obsessive here - this is an internet forum after all :-)
Posted By: Tweedpipe Re: Getting an upright piano - 03/14/21 10:46 AM
Originally Posted by ColonelBogey
Dont hesitate to take the floor display Sauter. 6000 i a good discount, the piano has been stored in controlled conditions and probably not been played that much. Not much could go wrong. Actually, the brand new Sauter might not as nice as the one you know you like.
The dealer will put the floor display in mint shape on delivery.

I totally agree with this. A floor display model will have certainly been 'tweaked' since delivery and probably perform better than one 'straight from the packing case'. Although having said that, Sauter pianos are meticulously prepared prior to shipment. I bought one sight-unseen (having played a 130 in-store) which absolutely blew me away - although prior to that I'd also auditioned most of the other top-tier upright pianos. The Sauter was a clear winner.

I was initially alerted to your comments, "I also tried Sauter (I forgot the model) I really love it, except when I see the price tag , it's 40K list price. I think for 40K I'd save up and get a grand instead". If one has a chance to audition a perfectly prepared Sauter of <118cms, imho most other uprights of a similar size pale in comparison (with the exception of a few other top-tier German models).

Given that it appears you've had the Kawai tuned just the once in recent years, I'd advise the following:
i) Have it tuned again as it's probably in need of a pitch-raise, and at the same time have your technician regulate the piano. Afterwards you may experience a marked difference, and save yourself a lot of cash over buying a newer model.
ii) It's certainly nice to have a brand new model, but a good used, top-tier model could well have a slightly more pleasant, mature tone. I'm convinced that the tone of my Sauter has marginally improved since purchase 14years ago. And having negotiated an excellent price on it, the same model - a MasterClass122 - can occasionally be found here in Europe for around 10kEuros/15k CAN$, and a Sauter 130 from 12k euros. Times are hard almost everywhere and there are some exceptional pianos available in Europe for those who wish to scan the ads and investigate shipping costs etc. Just last week I saw a Sauter Delta 185 grand offered for sale at 27k euros/ approx 40k CAN$ (probably negotiable), which is a revelation when you state a 40k price on a new Sauter upright.
iii) Continue your piano search on the used market, and don't overlook Seiler, Grotrian or Bluthner - although lesser known manufacturers (like Sauter) they can be truly exceptional.

Good luck in your search, and please keep us updated on you eventual choice.
Posted By: Hakki Re: Getting an upright piano - 03/14/21 11:04 AM
Like Estrin, I am definitely biased as well. Hence my opinions.
Posted By: Tweedpipe Re: Getting an upright piano - 03/14/21 11:10 AM
Originally Posted by Hakki
I would definitely get the U3, make an agreement with the dealer for an upgrade to a grand in exchange of the U3, and save the $9k for the grand that you are planning to get when you move in a couple of years.

Sorry, can't agree with this. Yes the U3 is a fine piano but if the OP has the funds and can negotiate a good discount on the Sauter, the difference is 'chalk & cheese'.
What you are suggesting imho doesn't appear cost effective either, as a Sauter <118cms will 'knock the socks off' so many smallish grand pianos. For a short while I had a Grotrian grand and subsequently in no way regret the purchase of the Sauter upright. For those who prefer the looks of a grand over an excellent upright, that's fine, but so often it's the difference in sound which is overlooked, and should be given more careful consideration.
Posted By: Hakki Re: Getting an upright piano - 03/14/21 11:41 AM
Please see my Estrin post above. My opinions are biased.
Posted By: fibbi Re: Getting an upright piano - 03/15/21 05:56 PM
Originally Posted by Tweedpipe
Originally Posted by ColonelBogey
Dont hesitate to take the floor display Sauter. 6000 i a good discount, the piano has been stored in controlled conditions and probably not been played that much. Not much could go wrong. Actually, the brand new Sauter might not as nice as the one you know you like.
The dealer will put the floor display in mint shape on delivery.

I totally agree with this. A floor display model will have certainly been 'tweaked' since delivery and probably perform better than one 'straight from the packing case'. Although having said that, Sauter pianos are meticulously prepared prior to shipment. I bought one sight-unseen (having played a 130 in-store) which absolutely blew me away - although prior to that I'd also auditioned most of the other top-tier upright pianos. The Sauter was a clear winner.

I was initially alerted to your comments, "I also tried Sauter (I forgot the model) I really love it, except when I see the price tag , it's 40K list price. I think for 40K I'd save up and get a grand instead". If one has a chance to audition a perfectly prepared Sauter of <118cms, imho most other uprights of a similar size pale in comparison (with the exception of a few other top-tier German models).

Given that it appears you've had the Kawai tuned just the once in recent years, I'd advise the following:
i) Have it tuned again as it's probably in need of a pitch-raise, and at the same time have your technician regulate the piano. Afterwards you may experience a marked difference, and save yourself a lot of cash over buying a newer model.
ii) It's certainly nice to have a brand new model, but a good used, top-tier model could well have a slightly more pleasant, mature tone. I'm convinced that the tone of my Sauter has marginally improved since purchase 14years ago. And having negotiated an excellent price on it, the same model - a MasterClass122 - can occasionally be found here in Europe for around 10kEuros/15k CAN$, and a Sauter 130 from 12k euros. Times are hard almost everywhere and there are some exceptional pianos available in Europe for those who wish to scan the ads and investigate shipping costs etc. Just last week I saw a Sauter Delta 185 grand offered for sale at 27k euros/ approx 40k CAN$ (probably negotiable), which is a revelation when you state a 40k price on a new Sauter upright.
iii) Continue your piano search on the used market, and don't overlook Seiler, Grotrian or Bluthner - although lesser known manufacturers (like Sauter) they can be truly exceptional.

Good luck in your search, and please keep us updated on you eventual choice.

(i) I just tuned my current piano again, but still not really to my liking frown

The Sauter 130 has the list price tag of $40K. But after some negotiation I can get the new one down to 3x and the floor model one 2x (which is 6K more expensive than a new YUS5). The price difference is significantly less to make it more "considerable".

Will try to make the decision this week. Will keep you guys posted smile
Posted By: Hakki Re: Getting an upright piano - 03/15/21 06:09 PM
Originally Posted by fibbi
(i) I just tuned my current piano again, but still not really to my liking frown

Maybe you should have a professional tune your piano instead of tuning it yourself. Piano tuning requires a lot of experience.
Posted By: fibbi Re: Getting an upright piano - 03/15/21 06:10 PM
Originally Posted by Hakki
Originally Posted by fibbi
(i) I just tuned my current piano again, but still not really to my liking frown

Maybe you should have a professional tune your piano instead of tuning it yourself. Piano tuning requires a lot of experience.

Sorry for my English...I don't mean I tune myself but I had someone over my house to tune it, 2 weeks ago.
Posted By: Hakki Re: Getting an upright piano - 03/15/21 06:19 PM
Since your piano has not been tuned for the last 10 years, it will need several tunings in order to stabilize.

But, if you don’t like the tuning just after the tuner leaves, then you might look for another tuner.
Posted By: Lady Bird Re: Getting an upright piano - 03/15/21 06:52 PM
Originally Posted by fibbi
Originally Posted by Tweedpipe
Originally Posted by ColonelBogey
Dont hesitate to take the floor display Sauter. 6000 i a good discount, the piano has been stored in controlled conditions and probably not been played that much. Not much could go wrong. Actually, the brand new Sauter might not as nice as the one you know you like.
The dealer will put the floor display in mint shape on delivery.

I totally agree with this. A floor display model will have certainly been 'tweaked' since delivery and probably perform better than one 'straight from the packing case'. Although having said that, Sauter pianos are meticulously prepared prior to shipment. I bought one sight-unseen (having played a 130 in-store) which absolutely blew me away - although prior to that I'd also auditioned most of the other top-tier upright pianos. The Sauter was a clear winner.

I was initially alerted to your comments, "I also tried Sauter (I forgot the model) I really love it, except when I see the price tag , it's 40K list price. I think for 40K I'd save up and get a grand instead". If one has a chance to audition a perfectly prepared Sauter of <118cms, imho most other uprights of a similar size pale in comparison (with the exception of a few other top-tier German models).

Given that it appears you've had the Kawai tuned just the once in recent years, I'd advise the following:
i) Have it tuned again as it's probably in need of a pitch-raise, and at the same time have your technician regulate the piano. Afterwards you may experience a marked difference, and save yourself a lot of cash over buying a newer model.
ii) It's certainly nice to have a brand new model, but a good used, top-tier model could well have a slightly more pleasant, mature tone. I'm convinced that the tone of my Sauter has marginally improved since purchase 14years ago. And having negotiated an excellent price on it, the same model - a MasterClass122 - can occasionally be found here in Europe for around 10kEuros/15k CAN$, and a Sauter 130 from 12k euros. Times are hard almost everywhere and there are some exceptional pianos available in Europe for those who wish to scan the ads and investigate shipping costs etc. Just last week I saw a Sauter Delta 185 grand offered for sale at 27k euros/ approx 40k CAN$ (probably negotiable), which is a revelation when you state a 40k price on a new Sauter upright.
iii) Continue your piano search on the used market, and don't overlook Seiler, Grotrian or Bluthner - although lesser known manufacturers (like Sauter) they can be truly exceptional.

Good luck in your search, and please keep us updated on you eventual choice.

(i) I just tuned my current piano again, but still not really to my liking frown

The Sauter 130 has the list price tag of $40K. But after some negotiation I can get the new one down to 3x and the floor model one 2x (which is 6K more expensive than a new YUS5). The price difference is significantly less to make it more "considerable".

Will try to make the decision this week. Will keep you guys posted smile
Are saying you can get the Sauter 130 for $26,000CAD ? That would be a price I have never seen before in that store for that Sauter model ?
I find this very unusual and interesting. I tend to watch the prices of the Sauter and Schimmel Konzert uprights in Tom Lee Music .How many Sauter 130 pianos are in that one store at the moment.
Posted By: Lady Bird Re: Getting an upright piano - 03/15/21 07:32 PM
Originally Posted by Lady Bird
Originally Posted by fibbi
Originally Posted by Tweedpipe
Originally Posted by ColonelBogey
Dont hesitate to take the floor display Sauter. 6000 i a good discount, the piano has been stored in controlled conditions and probably not been played that much. Not much could go wrong. Actually, the brand new Sauter might not as nice as the one you know you like.
The dealer will put the floor display in mint shape on delivery.

I totally agree with this. A floor display model will have certainly been 'tweaked' since delivery and probably perform better than one 'straight from the packing case'. Although having said that, Sauter pianos are meticulously prepared prior to shipment. I bought one sight-unseen (having played a 130 in-store) which absolutely blew me away - although prior to that I'd also auditioned most of the other top-tier upright pianos. The Sauter was a clear winner.

I was initially alerted to your comments, "I also tried Sauter (I forgot the model) I really love it, except when I see the price tag , it's 40K list price. I think for 40K I'd save up and get a grand instead". If one has a chance to audition a perfectly prepared Sauter of <118cms, imho most other uprights of a similar size pale in comparison (with the exception of a few other top-tier German models).

Given that it appears you've had the Kawai tuned just the once in recent years, I'd advise the following:
i) Have it tuned again as it's probably in need of a pitch-raise, and at the same time have your technician regulate the piano. Afterwards you may experience a marked difference, and save yourself a lot of cash over buying a newer model.
ii) It's certainly nice to have a brand new model, but a good used, top-tier model could well have a slightly more pleasant, mature tone. I'm convinced that the tone of my Sauter has marginally improved since purchase 14years ago. And having negotiated an excellent price on it, the same model - a MasterClass122 - can occasionally be found here in Europe for around 10kEuros/15k CAN$, and a Sauter 130 from 12k euros. Times are hard almost everywhere and there are some exceptional pianos available in Europe for those who wish to scan the ads and investigate shipping costs etc. Just last week I saw a Sauter Delta 185 grand offered for sale at 27k euros/ approx 40k CAN$ (probably negotiable), which is a revelation when you state a 40k price on a new Sauter upright.
iii) Continue your piano search on the used market, and don't overlook Seiler, Grotrian or Bluthner - although lesser known manufacturers (like Sauter) they can be truly exceptional.

Good luck in your search, and please keep us updated on you eventual choice.

(i) I just tuned my current piano again, but still not really to my liking frown

The Sauter 130 has the list price tag of $40K. But after some negotiation I can get the new one down to 3x and the floor model one 2x (which is 6K more expensive than a new YUS5). The price difference is significantly less to make it more "considerable".

Will try to make the decision this week. Will keep you guys posted smile
Are saying you can get the Sauter 130 for $26,000CAD ? That would be a price I have never seen before in that store for that Sauter model ?
I find this very unusual and interesting. I tend to watch the prices of the Sauter and Schimmel Konzert uprights in Tom Lee Music .How many Sauter 130 pianos are in that one store at the moment.
OK I had no idea the YUS5 had gone up so much in price in just a few years. The price used to be around $20,000 CAD a few years ago.( for the YUS5)
Posted By: Hakki Re: Getting an upright piano - 03/15/21 07:53 PM
fibbi, here is a before/after tuning video.

Of course the piano is very much in tune compared to its initial state after the tuning, but, if it were me, I would still not be 100% satisfied with the end result.

So it all depends on how a tuner sets the unisons, intervals, regulation and voicing.
Posted By: fibbi Re: Getting an upright piano - 03/15/21 08:00 PM
Originally Posted by Lady Bird
Originally Posted by fibbi
Originally Posted by Tweedpipe
Originally Posted by ColonelBogey
Dont hesitate to take the floor display Sauter. 6000 i a good discount, the piano has been stored in controlled conditions and probably not been played that much. Not much could go wrong. Actually, the brand new Sauter might not as nice as the one you know you like.
The dealer will put the floor display in mint shape on delivery.

I totally agree with this. A floor display model will have certainly been 'tweaked' since delivery and probably perform better than one 'straight from the packing case'. Although having said that, Sauter pianos are meticulously prepared prior to shipment. I bought one sight-unseen (having played a 130 in-store) which absolutely blew me away - although prior to that I'd also auditioned most of the other top-tier upright pianos. The Sauter was a clear winner.

I was initially alerted to your comments, "I also tried Sauter (I forgot the model) I really love it, except when I see the price tag , it's 40K list price. I think for 40K I'd save up and get a grand instead". If one has a chance to audition a perfectly prepared Sauter of <118cms, imho most other uprights of a similar size pale in comparison (with the exception of a few other top-tier German models).

Given that it appears you've had the Kawai tuned just the once in recent years, I'd advise the following:
i) Have it tuned again as it's probably in need of a pitch-raise, and at the same time have your technician regulate the piano. Afterwards you may experience a marked difference, and save yourself a lot of cash over buying a newer model.
ii) It's certainly nice to have a brand new model, but a good used, top-tier model could well have a slightly more pleasant, mature tone. I'm convinced that the tone of my Sauter has marginally improved since purchase 14years ago. And having negotiated an excellent price on it, the same model - a MasterClass122 - can occasionally be found here in Europe for around 10kEuros/15k CAN$, and a Sauter 130 from 12k euros. Times are hard almost everywhere and there are some exceptional pianos available in Europe for those who wish to scan the ads and investigate shipping costs etc. Just last week I saw a Sauter Delta 185 grand offered for sale at 27k euros/ approx 40k CAN$ (probably negotiable), which is a revelation when you state a 40k price on a new Sauter upright.
iii) Continue your piano search on the used market, and don't overlook Seiler, Grotrian or Bluthner - although lesser known manufacturers (like Sauter) they can be truly exceptional.

Good luck in your search, and please keep us updated on you eventual choice.

(i) I just tuned my current piano again, but still not really to my liking frown

The Sauter 130 has the list price tag of $40K. But after some negotiation I can get the new one down to 3x and the floor model one 2x (which is 6K more expensive than a new YUS5). The price difference is significantly less to make it more "considerable".

Will try to make the decision this week. Will keep you guys posted smile
Are saying you can get the Sauter 130 for $26,000CAD ? That would be a price I have never seen before in that store for that Sauter model ?
I find this very unusual and interesting. I tend to watch the prices of the Sauter and Schimmel Konzert uprights in Tom Lee Music .How many Sauter 130 pianos are in that one store at the moment.

Sauter 130 Floor model is 2X. New is 3X. YUS5 list price is 23000 now.
Posted By: fibbi Re: Getting an upright piano - 03/15/21 08:08 PM
Originally Posted by Hakki
fibbi, here is a before/after tuning video.

Of course the piano is very much in tune compared to its initial state after the tuning, but, if it were me, I would still not be 100% satisfied with the end result.

So it all depends on how a tuner sets the unisons, intervals, regulation and voicing.

It's not just the pitch that I'm looking for (I do have perfect pitch), it's the touch as well, but it's hard to explain in my poor english.
Posted By: Hakki Re: Getting an upright piano - 03/15/21 08:47 PM
If the piano is close to concert pitch (A4 = 440 Hz) then it won't disturb your ear even if you have perfect pitch.

More important is how well the unisons, octaves, fifths, fourths, thirds etc sound altogether.
Posted By: Lady Bird Re: Getting an upright piano - 03/15/21 08:57 PM
Fibbi
I am sorry I should not have interfered with the pricing of the store. I shall absolutely not say anything more about prices of those pianos.The price of the YUS5 has gone up .
Posted By: fibbi Re: Getting an upright piano - 03/15/21 09:08 PM
Originally Posted by Lady Bird
Fibbi
I am sorry I should not have interfered with the pricing of the store. I shall absolutely not say anything more about prices of those pianos.The price of the YUS5 has gone up .
Hey no worries. to me personally I don't mind to disclose price I'm just not sure if it's ok to do that (I'm rather new here). But anyway, YUS5 after discount is closer to 20K but even that it's about 10% discount. But compare with Sauter 130 they are willing to give higher discount %. I suspect they have quite a few in stock and less people go with higher end upright.
I was turning away by the $40K list price tag of the Sauter 130. Discount-wise it's very attractive. But overall it's still more than what I was thinking to spend.

But still..I'm not making final decision yet. I was busy preparing my girl's video submission to the music festival . WIll decide within this week though.
Posted By: Lady Bird Re: Getting an upright piano - 03/15/21 09:52 PM
Will try to make the decision this week. Will keep you guys posted smile[/quote]
Are saying you can get the Sauter 130 for $26,000CAD ? That would be a price I have never seen before in that store for that Sauter model ?
I find this very unusual and interesting. I tend to watch the prices of the Sauter and Schimmel Konzert uprights in Tom Lee Music .How many Sauter 130 pianos are in that one store at the moment.[/quote]

Sauter 130 Floor model is 2X. New is 3X. YUS5 list price is 23000 now.[/quote]


Are both the Floor model 2X and the new 3X Sauter on the showroom floor ?
Posted By: fibbi Re: Getting an upright piano - 03/15/21 10:15 PM
Originally Posted by Lady Bird
Are both the Floor model 2X and the new 3X Sauter on the showroom floor ?


New Sauter needs to be ordered I was told it can be months. Floor model is inside the showroom. (but I had a feeling that because they have few Sauter 130 in the showroom (spread across different stores) they try to get rid of those first before wanting to order new.

the 2X and 3X are after discount.
Posted By: Lady Bird Re: Getting an upright piano - 03/16/21 12:55 AM
Originally Posted by fibbi
Originally Posted by Lady Bird
Are both the Floor model 2X and the new 3X Sauter on the showroom floor ?


New Sauter needs to be ordered I was told it can be months. Floor model is inside the showroom. (but I had a feeling that because they have few Sauter 130 in the showroom (spread across different stores) they try to get rid of those first before wanting to order new.

the 2X and 3X are after discount.
I think , in fact I know ,that they have not received any new Sauter 130's since this Covid problem. Sauter cannot make all the pianos that mega dealer needs.Those in those stores are probably all they have. Of course they want to sell the pianos they have.Have you seen the number of grands and uprights of different models in those stores ?
Yes of course new Sauter pianos have to be made. It will take months.This is similar to all high end German pianos.
Posted By: Tweedpipe Re: Getting an upright piano - 03/16/21 09:14 PM
Originally Posted by Lady Bird
Originally Posted by fibbi
Originally Posted by Tweedpipe
Originally Posted by ColonelBogey
Dont hesitate to take the floor display Sauter. 6000 i a good discount, the piano has been stored in controlled conditions and probably not been played that much. Not much could go wrong. Actually, the brand new Sauter might not as nice as the one you know you like.
The dealer will put the floor display in mint shape on delivery.

I totally agree with this. A floor display model will have certainly been 'tweaked' since delivery and probably perform better than one 'straight from the packing case'. Although having said that, Sauter pianos are meticulously prepared prior to shipment. I bought one sight-unseen (having played a 130 in-store) which absolutely blew me away - although prior to that I'd also auditioned most of the other top-tier upright pianos. The Sauter was a clear winner.

I was initially alerted to your comments, "I also tried Sauter (I forgot the model) I really love it, except when I see the price tag , it's 40K list price. I think for 40K I'd save up and get a grand instead". If one has a chance to audition a perfectly prepared Sauter of <118cms, imho most other uprights of a similar size pale in comparison (with the exception of a few other top-tier German models).

Given that it appears you've had the Kawai tuned just the once in recent years, I'd advise the following:
i) Have it tuned again as it's probably in need of a pitch-raise, and at the same time have your technician regulate the piano. Afterwards you may experience a marked difference, and save yourself a lot of cash over buying a newer model.
ii) It's certainly nice to have a brand new model, but a good used, top-tier model could well have a slightly more pleasant, mature tone. I'm convinced that the tone of my Sauter has marginally improved since purchase 14years ago. And having negotiated an excellent price on it, the same model - a MasterClass122 - can occasionally be found here in Europe for around 10kEuros/15k CAN$, and a Sauter 130 from 12k euros. Times are hard almost everywhere and there are some exceptional pianos available in Europe for those who wish to scan the ads and investigate shipping costs etc. Just last week I saw a Sauter Delta 185 grand offered for sale at 27k euros/ approx 40k CAN$ (probably negotiable), which is a revelation when you state a 40k price on a new Sauter upright.
iii) Continue your piano search on the used market, and don't overlook Seiler, Grotrian or Bluthner - although lesser known manufacturers (like Sauter) they can be truly exceptional.

Good luck in your search, and please keep us updated on you eventual choice.

(i) I just tuned my current piano again, but still not really to my liking frown

The Sauter 130 has the list price tag of $40K. But after some negotiation I can get the new one down to 3x and the floor model one 2x (which is 6K more expensive than a new YUS5). The price difference is significantly less to make it more "considerable".

Will try to make the decision this week. Will keep you guys posted smile
Are saying you can get the Sauter 130 for $26,000CAD ? That would be a price I have never seen before in that store for that Sauter model ?
I find this very unusual and interesting. I tend to watch the prices of the Sauter and Schimmel Konzert uprights in Tom Lee Music .How many Sauter 130 pianos are in that one store at the moment.

To avoid any misunderstanding, the price I quoted in my post #3093026 above for a Sauter 130 was of course a used model in Europe, which from memory was 13 years old and in superb condition. And the Sauter Delta 185 (still for sale) at 26k euro/negotiable being a 2013 model. Which clearly indicates that European piano prices new and used tend to be far less than the US and elsewhere, although unfortunately it's quite the opposite here for new and used vehicles which generally are very expensive.
Posted By: Lady Bird Re: Getting an upright piano - 03/16/21 11:15 PM
$26,000 for the Sauter130 which is a customized version of the Competence. A simpler cabinet but with a sostenuto pedal. If one wants a full Competence in a fancier cabinet The Satin Walnut is the cheaper but the MSRP price may be what one would have to pay because the piano would have to be made ( I cannot remember but about $34,000.) See Brand Profiles.
Ulrich Sauter says these have exact same specifications and time spent on them as the Competence. You may find that the cabinet is made of cheaper materials than the Competence as well. Otherwise they are the same piano.
I suppose the extra details of the cabinet can add up to quite a few thousand $. The Competence 130 in PE is even more expensive. So if you love the piano $ 26,000 is the most reasonable price I have heard of here in Vancouver.The Competence has a practice pedal and not a sostenuto.
I would never ever buy a piano I have not played however. "Lemons" do exist in every brand.
Posted By: Lady Bird Re: Getting an upright piano - 03/16/21 11:25 PM
Oh I see the Competence 130 has raised in price quite considerably. No mention is made of the Sonder130 anymore?
Posted By: Lady Bird Re: Getting an upright piano - 03/16/21 11:43 PM
No time to edit. It is possible that the manufacturer's have not finalized thier MSRP prices yet for that model ?
Posted By: Lady Bird Re: Getting an upright piano - 03/17/21 01:56 AM
This should be a help
https://www.pianobuyer.com/article/dealer-preparation-of-new-pianos/
Posted By: fibbi Re: Getting an upright piano - 03/21/21 12:55 AM
So my piano shopping continues...
And last weekend there are 2 YUS5 new and also I was checking the record of the in-store YUS5 (like how long it's been in the store, tuning interval etc.)

To my surprise, today when I try to pay for deposit, but just to find out that the two YUS5 new are sold! The in-store Sauter 130 is also sold! Are you kidding me??
I know it's spring break and there are some promotion going on..but come on...those are $20K $30K item!!
Posted By: twocats Re: Getting an upright piano - 03/21/21 01:01 AM
Yikes, sorry to hear that! That's very disappointing... I hope this situation ends up being a blessing in disguise when you find your piano!
Posted By: LarryK Re: Getting an upright piano - 03/21/21 02:21 AM
Originally Posted by fibbi
So my piano shopping continues...
And last weekend there are 2 YUS5 new and also I was checking the record of the in-store YUS5 (like how long it's been in the store, tuning interval etc.)

To my surprise, today when I try to pay for deposit, but just to find out that the two YUS5 new are sold! The in-store Sauter 130 is also sold! Are you kidding me??
I know it's spring break and there are some promotion going on..but come on...those are $20K $30K item!!

I guess I’m glad I took the deal on a DYUS5 when it was offered to me. Sometimes, you have a good deal.

People have cash, and $20k-30k is not that much money, to be honest. The pandemic had people putting down all cash offers on houses seen once on Zoom calls. I heard of people buying with $900k cash.

With long lead times to ship goods because of huge demand in the shipping industry, there isn’t a lot of piano inventory and what is there is selling. People are still locked down in their homes and looking for things to do.

As they say, you snooze, you lose.
Posted By: Lady Bird Re: Getting an upright piano - 03/21/21 02:40 AM
Originally Posted by fibbi
So my piano shopping continues...
And last weekend there are 2 YUS5 new and also I was checking the record of the in-store YUS5 (like how long it's been in the store, tuning interval etc.)

To my surprise, today when I try to pay for deposit, but just to find out that the two YUS5 new are sold! The in-store Sauter 130 is also sold! Are you kidding me??
I know it's spring break and there are some promotion going on..but come on...those are $20K $30K item!!
Yes I believe you. I am not sure of the selling price of the Sauter 130., but it sounded very reasonable .I know of two 130's sold in 3years.
The YUS5 is very nice , you should be very happy with it.
Posted By: K8KT Re: Getting an upright piano - 03/21/21 03:46 AM
I can believe it since when I was piano shopping last year, vast majority of pianos we have considered were flying off the shelves, sometimes before we had a chance to visit the store. But I’m sure there is alway another piano that comes up for sale that are just as satisfying.
Posted By: Hakki Re: Getting an upright piano - 03/21/21 05:10 AM
Is the U1 still available?

Maybe you should just get that U1.

It was your first choice in the beginning.
Posted By: fibbi Re: Getting an upright piano - 03/21/21 05:45 AM
Originally Posted by Hakki
Is the U1 still available?

Maybe you should just get that U1.

It was your first choice in the beginning.


But once I tried the U3 or YUS5...really....I took U1 off the list. I am not saying U1 is bad, it's just that I know U3 or YUS5 would be much more satisfying...

Grand would be an ultimate dream but first thing is that I have to move. And my town is just one of the least affordable cities in NA, if not in the world! So moving would be few years (maybe 10) down the road.
Posted By: dogperson Re: Getting an upright piano - 03/21/21 06:44 AM
Originally Posted by fibbi
Originally Posted by Hakki
Is the U1 still available?

Maybe you should just get that U1.

It was your first choice in the beginning.


But once I tried the U3 or YUS5...really....I took U1 off the list. I am not saying U1 is bad, it's just that I know U3 or YUS5 would be much more satisfying...

Grand would be an ultimate dream but first thing is that I have to move. And my town is just one of the least affordable cities in NA, if not in the world! So moving would be few years (maybe 10) down the road.


You really don’t want to buy a piano you know would be unsatisfying... just continue to have patience and you will find the right piano for you.
Posted By: Hakki Re: Getting an upright piano - 03/21/21 12:17 PM
You might also consider a Kawai K500 or K800 Upright.

They would probably be cheaper than a comparable Yamaha model.

Here
Posted By: Windjammer Re: Getting an upright piano - 03/21/21 11:29 PM
Someone listed a freshly tuned 2014 Schimmel Konzert K122 Tradition Upright Piano on ebay this Morning for under $8k. It looks like in excellent condition. You‘d have to arrange for a piano moving company to handle the move, and perhaps arrange a remote inspection by a technician but pending those variables, that’s a huge step up from the Japanese instruments you’re now falling back on because one German instrument didn’t work out.
Posted By: fibbi Re: Getting an upright piano - 03/21/21 11:46 PM
Originally Posted by Windjammer
Someone listed a freshly tuned 2014 Schimmel Konzert K122 Tradition Upright Piano on ebay this Morning for under $8k. It looks like in excellent condition. You‘d have to arrange for a piano moving company to handle the move, and perhaps arrange a remote inspection by a technician but pending those variables, that’s a huge step up from the Japanese instruments you’re now falling back on because one German instrument didn’t work out.

I didn't see that listing in both ebay.com or ebay.ca ? maybe it's gone already?
Posted By: Lady Bird Re: Getting an upright piano - 03/22/21 12:09 AM
Originally Posted by Hakki
You might also consider a Kawai K500 or K800 Upright.

They would probably be cheaper than a comparable Yamaha model.

Here
That is a good store as well .You could phone and find out if they have the K500 or the K800.You could easily buy a
Sauter 130 from a different branch in Richmond, Coquitlam, Surrey or North Vancouver.(phone to find out, ask them to tune the piano)
Otherwise the store always has a YUS5 , so they will order one anyway. You could get them to set it up for you. Regarding the Schimmel Konzert on ebay. They are lovely pianos. Actually I have only tried one. If they are all as nice as the one I bought it would be worth it. I know Sauters are very consistent in what to expect, so probably the Schimmel Konzert series as well.
It would be something different to own a European piano with that kind of sound and action.
I have never bought anything on ebay though.
Posted By: Lady Bird Re: Getting an upright piano - 03/22/21 12:45 AM
If you find a lovely sounding U3 in the dealer, that is a good piano., But if you have decided against that model then look at other pianos.
Posted By: Windjammer Re: Getting an upright piano - 03/22/21 01:01 AM
Originally Posted by fibbi
Originally Posted by Windjammer
Someone listed a freshly tuned 2014 Schimmel Konzert K122 Tradition Upright Piano on ebay this Morning for under $8k. It looks like in excellent condition. You‘d have to arrange for a piano moving company to handle the move, and perhaps arrange a remote inspection by a technician but pending those variables, that’s a huge step up from the Japanese instruments you’re now falling back on because one German instrument didn’t work out.

I didn't see that listing in both ebay.com or ebay.ca ? maybe it's gone already?

Link.
Posted By: fibbi Re: Getting an upright piano - 03/22/21 06:23 AM
Originally Posted by Windjammer
Originally Posted by fibbi
Originally Posted by Windjammer
Someone listed a freshly tuned 2014 Schimmel Konzert K122 Tradition Upright Piano on ebay this Morning for under $8k. It looks like in excellent condition. You‘d have to arrange for a piano moving company to handle the move, and perhaps arrange a remote inspection by a technician but pending those variables, that’s a huge step up from the Japanese instruments you’re now falling back on because one German instrument didn’t work out.

I didn't see that listing in both ebay.com or ebay.ca ? maybe it's gone already?

Link.

Thanks for the link, but doesn't ship to Canada... >_<
Posted By: Windjammer Re: Getting an upright piano - 03/22/21 09:49 PM
Originally Posted by fibbi
Originally Posted by Windjammer
Originally Posted by fibbi
Originally Posted by Windjammer
Someone listed a freshly tuned 2014 Schimmel Konzert K122 Tradition Upright Piano on ebay this Morning for under $8k. It looks like in excellent condition. You‘d have to arrange for a piano moving company to handle the move, and perhaps arrange a remote inspection by a technician but pending those variables, that’s a huge step up from the Japanese instruments you’re now falling back on because one German instrument didn’t work out.

I didn't see that listing in both ebay.com or ebay.ca ? maybe it's gone already?

Link.

Thanks for the link, but doesn't ship to Canada... >_<

That seller won’t ship to a person a few blocks over in their own city, it’s pick up only, which means you’d have to arrange your own delivery company and handle taxes etc. The way it works is that you solicit three quotes from reputable movers with crossborder experience who carry a decent insurance. On top of arranging inspection up front.
That’s a lot of responsibility and paperwork on your end up front, let‘s say an additional 2k. Not everyone has the time or inclination to do that.
Posted By: sharra Re: Getting an upright piano - 03/22/21 09:57 PM
Originally Posted by Windjammer
That seller won’t ship to a person a few blocks over in their own city, it’s pick up only, which means you’d have to arrange your own delivery company and handle taxes etc. The way it works is that you solicit three quotes from reputable movers with crossborder experience who carry a decent insurance. On top of arranging inspection up front.
That’s a lot of responsibility and paperwork on your end up front, let‘s say an additional 2k. Not everyone has the time or inclination to do that.

That seems like an awesome price. And it has exactly 0 bids yet?!
Posted By: Windjammer Re: Getting an upright piano - 03/23/21 12:53 AM
Yes, I would say it is an incredible price! It’s a 2014 model and in the Konzert line.
Posted By: fibbi Re: Getting an upright piano - 03/23/21 05:46 AM
Ok update . Finally ! Done the paper work today ! Yus5 is coming some time next month !
Posted By: EB5AGV Re: Getting an upright piano - 03/23/21 10:24 AM
Originally Posted by fibbi
Ok update . Finally ! Done the paper work today ! Yus5 is coming some time next month !

Great!. I am sure you will love it
Posted By: gwing Re: Getting an upright piano - 03/23/21 12:24 PM
Originally Posted by fibbi
Ok update . Finally ! Done the paper work today ! Yus5 is coming some time next month !

Well done. But now the hard bit starts .... the waiting :-)
Posted By: dogperson Re: Getting an upright piano - 03/23/21 01:27 PM
Congrats! of course we need pics on arrival! I hope your daughter is equally thrilled with the arrival of the new piano
Posted By: fibbi Re: Getting an upright piano - 03/24/21 04:33 AM
Thank you all!! Yeah I can't wait for the new one to arrive. But it would be around a month.

And I am trying to sell mine...
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