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Hi, I'm curious to see if its possible find out the age of any given Kawai K300, K500 etc upright piano based on serial number? Say if its been sitting on the floor(how do you know its been made in 20-14, 2015 or 2016 etc?) I tried on Kawai website, but it stops at 2012, so like buying a new car, can you tell which years production it is? What if you see something on the floor and they tell you it's new? How do you know its not sitting there for 2 years? thanks
Ask them.

Some of the best pianos are floor stock, they've likely been tuned and adjusted to be perfect - unlike some which come out of a box. But you're unlikely to pay less for one (unless it's got some damage), as people are well aware that they're often a better piano.

I can recall some pianos which I'd seen a couple of years before and had rejected them as poor - but when I played them a couple of years later were great in comparison. They were grands - I'm not so sure with uprights.

That said, a couple of both YAMAHAs and KAWAIs I've seen straight out of the box were good to start with.
I’d rather have one that’s been sitting on the floor for a year than one delivered right out of a crate.

Was visiting a dealer the other day, where the records showed that a one-year old piano on their floor had already been tuned 5 times, and had some touch up regulation done. That piano is going to be much more stable in your home than a piano that was tuned once after uncrating, right before delivery.

I can’t remember if it’s true for the vertical pianos, but Kawai grands have a label underneath with the final assembly date (month and year). Keep in mind that pianos are often transported by container internationally, must clear customs, and usually end up in distribution warehouses before arriving at the dealer... so a “new” 2-year old piano is much more likely than a 3-month old one.
This table goes up to 2015. You can also look at the number produced each year and estimate the age by adding that number to the last year available. The year of manufacture doesn't matter much, if it's still on the floor it's considered new. As others have said, the longer it's been there the more times it's likely to have been tuned and the more stable it is likely to be.
Originally Posted by letsplayit
Hi, I'm curious to see if its possible find out the age of any given Kawai K300, K500 etc upright piano based on serial number? Say if its been sitting on the floor(how do you know its been made in 20-14, 2015 or 2016 etc?) I tried on Kawai website, but it stops at 2012, so like buying a new car, can you tell which years production it is? What if you see something on the floor and they tell you it's new? How do you know its not sitting there for 2 years? thanks


I'd also ask the dealer. If they're honest and reputable, they'll tell you when they got the shipment in. That'll tell you a pretty good idea of when they're made, minus a year (or two). At my dealer, the K300 and K500 are popular models. They sell a lot of them (like hot cakes) and have them in stock all the time, so their inventory of these pianos move quickly. I doubt these models would be sitting on a showroom or warehouse floor for years.

On an Estonia 168 I was previously looking at, I did ask the dealer, and he told me the exact date he got the shipment in, and since these were handmade in small batches (i.e., they didn't have any to be left sitting on a manufacturer's warehouse floor), I was comfortable knowing what the shipment date was, minus a year (or two).

Of course, getting a real date of manufacture would be ideal, but barring that, maybe try the above?
There is a sticker on the back of the Kawai uprights that shows the month and year it was manufactured, as well as if it was built in Japan or Indonesia.
Also, keep in mind that the Kawai warranty (in the US anyway) is 10 years from the date of purchase, not the date it was built. So, even if it has been sitting on the floor for two years, you still get the same warranty as if it were out of the box.
I found out from the manufacturer when it was sent to Canada.I asked the dealer when it arrived in the store.She showed me everything.It was in the warehouse a while and in the dealer for just over a year.I looked at the log book and saw how many times it had been tuned ,prepped etc.
I felt I knew a great deal more about the piano.
If there are any minor scratches they can buff them out if you ask.
Get them to prep ,tune the piano again before it arrives.
Best wishes
Originally Posted by MarkL
This table goes up to 2015. You can also look at the number produced each year and estimate the age by adding that number to the last year available. The year of manufacture doesn't matter much, if it's still on the floor it's considered new. As others have said, the longer it's been there the more times it's likely to have been tuned and the more stable it is likely to be.



Hi Mark, thanks for the link! Would you know why Kawai has stopped publishing their serial numbers 2015 onwards? I mean how would you verify if a piano is made in 2016 or 2019? I would certainly ask the shop re Age next time i see one that isn't brand new out of a box.
Originally Posted by Lady Bird
I found out from the manufacturer when it was sent to Canada.I asked the dealer when it arrived in the store.She showed me everything.It was in the warehouse a while and in the dealer for just over a year.I looked at the log book and saw how many times it had been tuned ,prepped etc.
I felt I knew a great deal more about the piano.
If there are any minor scratches they can buff them out if you ask.
Get them to prep ,tune the piano again before it arrives.
Best wishes



Thanks! Thats great they did show you the logbook, I would certainly feel more comfortable if they do that here (I don't know if its a standard practice). I can say people do that when they buy a car/2nd hand car here. To see a piano's logbook for tuning etc would be brilliant. I understand at first a new piano need to be tuned often so they generally always sound better than a NEW NEW one fresh out of the box! But wouldn't you rather get a piano no one has touched then as time goes by, the sound will get better as you play? (I mean when I buy other things I always want a brand new one that hasn't been tried by others, unless the one on the floor gives me more discount right).

My other Q is, what if a dealer has loaned a piano out short term then its back on the floor, you wouldn't know how hard the piano being played isn't it? I guess my security comes from knowing I bought a "new one out of box", unless I can trust the dealer completely.
terminaldegree,
Thanks I get the concept. But what I don't quite understand is, you would need to adjust tune your new piano anyway, so their sound would come right isn't it? Its like a new car, new bike lot of things. But wouldn't it mean, if you buy a piano that was loaned for short term like 3-5month (no idea the usage) then the sound is nicer than a brand new piano because its been tuned so many times? But that would mean you should logically get a second hand piano(under 1 yr, not 40 yrs old piano) as it would always sound better? If that's what you think, then why would we pay a brand new price on a piano has been played for 6mth-1yr? thanks :-)




Originally Posted by terminaldegree
I’d rather have one that’s been sitting on the floor for a year than one delivered right out of a crate.

Was visiting a dealer the other day, where the records showed that a one-year old piano on their floor had already been tuned 5 times, and had some touch up regulation done. That piano is going to be much more stable in your home than a piano that was tuned once after uncrating, right before delivery.

I can’t remember if it’s true for the vertical pianos, but Kawai grands have a label underneath with the final assembly date (month and year). Keep in mind that pianos are often transported by container internationally, must clear customs, and usually end up in distribution warehouses before arriving at the dealer... so a “new” 2-year old piano is much more likely than a 3-month old one.
Thanks, so in short you think a second hand piano plays or sounds nicer than a brand new out of the box? But I believe a car would drive a lot nicer after you take it for some spins not performing the best as brand new, however people prefer to buy brand new car right? Unless they get a decent discount? thanks


Originally Posted by backto_study_piano
Ask them.

Some of the best pianos are floor stock, they've likely been tuned and adjusted to be perfect - unlike some which come out of a box. But you're unlikely to pay less for one (unless it's got some damage), as people are well aware that they're often a better piano.

I can recall some pianos which I'd seen a couple of years before and had rejected them as poor - but when I played them a couple of years later were great in comparison. They were grands - I'm not so sure with uprights.

That said, a couple of both YAMAHAs and KAWAIs I've seen straight out of the box were good to start with.
cool, i will try when i pop in a shop next time. still taking my time but just trying to understand as much as I can.:-)

Originally Posted by WeakLeftHand
Originally Posted by letsplayit
Hi, I'm curious to see if its possible find out the age of any given Kawai K300, K500 etc upright piano based on serial number? Say if its been sitting on the floor(how do you know its been made in 20-14, 2015 or 2016 etc?) I tried on Kawai website, but it stops at 2012, so like buying a new car, can you tell which years production it is? What if you see something on the floor and they tell you it's new? How do you know its not sitting there for 2 years? thanks


I'd also ask the dealer. If they're honest and reputable, they'll tell you when they got the shipment in. That'll tell you a pretty good idea of when they're made, minus a year (or two). At my dealer, the K300 and K500 are popular models. They sell a lot of them (like hot cakes) and have them in stock all the time, so their inventory of these pianos move quickly. I doubt these models would be sitting on a showroom or warehouse floor for years.

On an Estonia 168 I was previously looking at, I did ask the dealer, and he told me the exact date he got the shipment in, and since these were handmade in small batches (i.e., they didn't have any to be left sitting on a manufacturer's warehouse floor), I was comfortable knowing what the shipment date was, minus a year (or two).

Of course, getting a real date of manufacture would be ideal, but barring that, maybe try the above?
I had the choice of a new,new Sauter.We drove around the lower mainland trying different ones.
There was one which I liked apart from the one I got.(they were all new,new,a week from the warehouse except for the one I bought)
We took our time playing these pianos.We noticed a slight loss of tuning over a period with some
of the very new ones (not much)The one downtown was noticeable a better piano.All I can say is
The response, tone everything was better.So why not choose the one I loved and could feel was a
good piano.One of the Sauter pianos I did not like.
I tried 5 pianos.The only reason I think is that my one year old piano had more tunings and touch
up regulations.I do not know why I did not like the one Sauter piano in one of the other stores.
Was it a lemon ?Was it standing in the wrong area of the dealer ?All I knew is that it was new,new.
(compairing serial numbers )
The strings have to stretch for a start with a brand new piano. So after 6 to 8 tunings the piano will
settle down.It is not like buying a new computer.But please you must buy the piano you have tried
no matter what.
Originally Posted by letsplayit
terminaldegree,
Thanks I get the concept. But what I don't quite understand is, you would need to adjust tune your new piano anyway, so their sound would come right isn't it? Its like a new car, new bike lot of things. But wouldn't it mean, if you buy a piano that was loaned for short term like 3-5month (no idea the usage) then the sound is nicer than a brand new piano because its been tuned so many times? But that would mean you should logically get a second hand piano(under 1 yr, not 40 yrs old piano) as it would always sound better? If that's what you think, then why would we pay a brand new price on a piano has been played for 6mth-1yr? thanks :-)


A new piano isn't a car, bike, or toaster. It's made with a lot of organic materials. The wood, felt, rubber, and buckskin change with humidity and pack down with use, which necessitates adjustments in voicing and regulation to perform at their full potential. The strings stretch for the first year or two. Also, pianos are made with a lot more hand labor. With that comes variability-- no two pianos of the same make and model will sound or feel exactly the same, so the floor model isn't a guarantee of the performance of the next one.

By choosing new, you get the factory warranty and a lot more choice of makes and models...which should allow you to find exactly what you want. Less than 5 year old used, higher quality pianos are really rare in the market, and when you find them, they're often priced incorrectly for the local market (more expensive than new "street" prices). Also, piano owners who aren't enthusiasts are typically lousy about properly maintaining pianos, so even these newer used pianos are not tuned and touched up enough to achieve the desired level of stability. I will tune my current, new grand piano 6 times in the first year (because I can do it myself at an acceptable level now), and one of those visits included touch up regulation and voicing by an expert technician. With my last piano, it was tuned 4 times the first year, and then had a full day's service by a factory technician just afterward. When I'm in the field, it's not unusual for me to service less than 5 year old pianos that have only been tuned once, or never since delivery!

I'd prefer not to buy a piano that's been rented out, because of the different environments in which it has been kept, used, and the inherent risk of damage when moving pianos. However, I'd consider an ex-rental if it got me to a "tier" of piano that I couldn't otherwise afford, and really desired. During my most recent search, I was considering an ex-C&A Steinway D that belonged to a major symphony orchestra as its "house" piano. It was still a bit beyond my reach, was about 40cm too big to fit in my living room, and was voiced up for a 2,000 seat hall...and I came to my senses.
All the very brand new ones would lose perfect tuning quickly compaired to the one year old piano. I cannot imagine a dealer renting out a piano on the floor.Besides we visited the piano we liked over a
period of a few months.We first got a very new U1 which had to be tuned and voiced often because of a metalic brightness.The floor model U1 was much nicer.But was about 3 years old.We basically worked out the age from different serial numbers we collected online.Look up the Blue Book and see more serial numbers and dates of manufacture there(of Kawai pianos)But you need to decide on this.
Surely Kawai would let you know how old the piano is from the serial number ?Have you sent them a message?
Tom Lee Music had just become the authorized dealer for Sauter pianos so hence the arrival of quite a few of these pianos.Most of the smaller chain stores had been sent one Sauter piano.
The downtown store has the 7ft Ambient Maly style grand. That piano has been there about 18 months that I know of.
Anyway even if I paid the newer price then at least I am happy in the piano I bought.Waiting for 6 to 8 tunings would have been about well over a year of not really enjoying the piano.How many years left (for me to enjoy the piano?)In the period I bought my piano at least one other Sauter 130 was sold.I know of someone else who bought one earlier than that.
At the time of me buying the piano(dealer became the authorised )there was a reduction in price Although they would have let me choose any newer piano.I did not want to go through the whole
process of having a brand new piano I did not like.So really not every owner tunes thier own piano .
It is up to the OP to decide if she wants a 1 to.3 year piano or take a chance with one new from the
warehouse .


One hammer needed replacing on a vintage piano I own when I acquired it. It took two years for the felt on the new hammer to break in and fully stabilize. I have the piano tuned twice a year and the new hammer required some voicing on each tuning for two years. Since then, it has been stable for years, and has been voiced so that you would not notice it is different from the other hammers when playing. There is some risk in buying a piano right out of the crate. You won’t know how it will ultimately sound once it has stabilized and been voiced.
Don’t know about Kawai but on Yamahas the date of manufacture is behind one of the front legs on grands. My piano was manufactured in November 2010. I purchased it and the warranty starts February 2012. Although both Kawai and Yamaha are known to have good to very good factory prep, I prefer pianos on the floor with a full dealer prep and a couple tunings under their belt, so to speak.
Originally Posted by Sweelinck
One hammer needed replacing on a vintage piano I own when I acquired it. It took two years for the felt on the new hammer to break in and fully stabilize. I have the piano tuned twice a year and the new hammer required some voicing on each tuning for two years. Since then, it has been stable for years, and has been voiced so that you would not notice it is different from the other hammers when playing. There is some risk in buying a piano right out of the crate. You won’t know how it will ultimately sound once it has stabilized and been voiced.

Interesting ! I wonder what all voicing pianos in the manufacture entails ?
I have heard that Steinway uses a machine in their factories to depress the keys repeatedly in a piano being built to break in the hammers. That may an example of the extra engineering you get on a new premium brand piano that contributes to the higher cost. I once played a new Bosendorfer upright that had yet to be prepped for sale, and then went back to the store, and played it again after prep. The difference was quite significant.
Originally Posted by Sweelinck
I have heard that Steinway uses a machine in their factories to depress the keys repeatedly in a piano being built to break in the hammers. That may an example of the extra engineering you get on a new premium brand piano that contributes to the higher cost. I once played a new Bosendorfer upright that had yet to be prepped for sale, and then went back to the store, and played it again after prep. The difference was quite significant.


Steinway is not the only brand that breaks in the hemmers. Here is a link to the machine made by one of forum members who is a rebuilder

Key pounder
Every factory I've seen has one of these machines, and many larger-scale rebuilders do, also. The amount of time it spends under the pounding machine, and the number of times the pianos get regulated varies.
I wonder if I can send my piano to get pounded? grin You know, to break it in.
only one method ,call the KAWAI japan, ask them directly ,or send a mail
Originally Posted by letsplayit
Thanks, so in short you think a second hand piano plays or sounds nicer than a brand new out of the box? [...]


That's not what posters are saying in this thread. A piano that has been sitting on a dealer's floor and that has been tuned several times, regulated and (perhaps) voiced as well during that time, even if it's a year or more, is not a "second hand" piano. It is, however, much more likely to be tuning-stable.

A second hand piano, on the other hand, is one that has been owned by a purchaser, and may have a "history" of use. I don't think anyone is intentionally saying that a second-hand piano sounds better than a brand new piano. That's comparing two quite different instruments.

Regards,
"A Brand New Piano" is one just very recently moved from the warehouse to the dealer.
It is also (horror story)a Piano Moved Immediately From The Crate To Your House.(no prep at all)
A New Piano is one that has been on the Showroom Floor of the Dealer from About a Year to Two
or Three Years.
This is good and the piano will have been tuned a Number of Times and Regulated.
People will have Played the piano even Kids.But the piano Needs this.(no extra pounding machines will be needed !)
Unless you want one very new from the warehouse and you want to Pay for 3 to 4 tunings a year.
Depending on the piano ,the piano WILL NOT be very nice Until it has 6 to 8 tunings !
This could take a Year or More .That Yamaha I had ,I was ready to send Back to the factory to be Pounded for ETERNITY !
A floor model is still New. You get the full Warranty.No one has Owned Or Rented this piano before.
Still find out Age,History etc.
If the piano has been on the floor for about 4 years,ask for a lower price! You never know ?
Actually I should not say that ! That U1 definitely had potential. The problem was completely
just that it had been in the shop just a few days ? So it was an intensely moody piano, and not
it a good way .,well not often !
It needed a few more tunings .I cannot afford to tune every month as much as I would love to.
We did get 2 free tunings after I started to drive the dealer crazy and we paid for 2 more.I think
it would have taken at least 8 or even 10 before it settled down.
It also had to be needled a few times because of the metalic tone it would suddenly develop.
Let'sPlayIt ,Have we driven you away ?
Originally Posted by letsplayit
Thanks, so in short you think a second hand piano plays or sounds nicer than a brand new out of the box? But I believe a car would drive a lot nicer after you take it for some spins not performing the best as brand new, however people prefer to buy brand new car right? Unless they get a decent discount? thanks


Originally Posted by backto_study_piano
Ask them.

Some of the best pianos are floor stock, they've likely been tuned and adjusted to be perfect - unlike some which come out of a box. But you're unlikely to pay less for one (unless it's got some damage), as people are well aware that they're often a better piano.

I can recall some pianos which I'd seen a couple of years before and had rejected them as poor - but when I played them a couple of years later were great in comparison. They were grands - I'm not so sure with uprights.

That said, a couple of both YAMAHAs and KAWAIs I've seen straight out of the box were good to start with.


No - I wasn't talking about 2nd hand pianos - but a new piano which has been carefully regulated, tuned, voiced - probably several (or many) times so the dealer can have a piano to demonstrate which is close to perfect.

A new piano, straight out of the box, may not perform anything like as well. I well remember going to a showroom (on appointment) to play a Tier 1 approx 7' piano for an extended session - and I noticed they had a brand new, smaller model which I hadn't seen before. I wandered over and played it - it was awful, the touch and tone were both inconsistent, the tuning wasn't really good. I commented - she said that it had been unpacked the day before and only tuned once!!! I went across to the ~7' piano which I was there to play - as the technician was finishing installing the action - which he'd been fine-tuning for my visit. I knew that ~7' piano had been there for quite a few weeks, and each time I played it, it was better. That "new" piano I tried a few times more - and yes, it improved.
letsplayit

Be practical if it matters much to you the manufacturing year, then have the dealer deliver a piano in the box. If you like the display model have an independent technician check the piano, this is more for your comfort as it is likely there is nothing wrong with it.
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