I talked to lot of people on this forum ,and i often get the impression that people tend not to favor an acoustic upright.
Instead people favor something like a kawai /yamaha digital only hybrid like a nv10 or nu1x, because of the action , but costs about an acoustic upright if not more, and they'll say they'lll get a grand when they can afford it.
This boggles my mind, as i only had digital pianos (non hybrid) but i would take an acoustic upright over a say nv10 if i had the money, because i have real soundboard and real strings real resonances
Usually the argument is upright action limitations, but how much repertoire is there where you really need to have a grand action. I've been into pianos for 12 years and play , as well as watch countless hours of advanced players on youtube, and very little music appears to be the case i'd need a grand action to get the job done!
Not to mention digital sounds get outdated real fast! Though you could get vst, but then you have to deal with vst never being optimized as internal sounds and miss out the vibrations if you use external monitors!
Could someone shed light on this , specifically , why people get say an nv10 /yamaha n1x type of piano over a acoustic upright (I am not including people who cannot get acoustic because of volume /maintenance issues)?
Simple - headphones, recording, volume control. Okay, you’re right. It is because of the volume issues. But that is the main reason for most people I expect.
Simple - headphones, recording, volume control. Okay, you’re right. It is because of the volume issues. But that is the main reason for most people I expect.
Originally Posted by TomLC
If noise was not an issue, I would get a baby grand in a heartbeat vs. a upright.
Maybe i should clarify, these people are not avoiding uprights because of volume issues, they can't afford a real grand so they get a hybrid, like nv10 of yamaha n1x, but dont consider a good upright which similarly priced like the hybrids i mentioned
Simple - headphones, recording, volume control. Okay, you’re right. It is because of the volume issues. But that is the main reason for most people I expect.
Originally Posted by TomLC
If noise was not an issue, I would get a baby grand in a heartbeat vs. a upright.
Maybe i should clarify, these people are not avoiding uprights because of volume issues, they can't afford a real grand so they get a hybrid, like nv10 of yamaha n1x, but dont consider a good upright which similarly priced like the hybrids i mentioned
The action on grand usually allow faster repetitions than the one on an upright due to the double escapement mechanism although this limitation can be partially mitigated using springs and other mechanisms (check the Feurich model 123, for example). The action also feels different since an upright relies on springs whereas a grand relies mostly on gravity. And you need a quite expensive (and tall) upright to get good sound out of it. You also need to factor in the recurring tuning and regulation costs that are not applicable to an hybrid. So, an hybrid like the n1x or nv10 is usually a better proposition than an upright.
If it's not the headphone issue, it may still be a cost issue. As I understood it when I was in the market for a digital, a Kawai MP11SE was a top of the line digital for about $2,700. For $2,700, however, you couldn't get a decent upright.
Now if you're talking a cabinet digital like a Kawai CA98, then if it wasn't for the headphones/internal recording capability, then I agree an acoustic upright would make more sense for about the same amount of money. So I'm with you. If noise isn't an issue, I'd get an acoustic upright over a digital any day.
I would certainly get an acoustic if I had the space downstairs and could play silently. But neither is possible. As for the speed of the action, that is not really a limiting factor for most people, more a matter of technique, assuming a properly regulated acoustic whilst actions like my on my Roland LX7 are perfectly adequate.
I would say that noise and space would be the main reasons that someone would favour the hybrids over an acoustic upright, and not really the difference in action. Although most people say the grand action has faster repetition, and they are right, most people don't play to that high a level where the upright action is the limiting factor. Even then, not many advanced repertoire require that kind of repetition.
People also say a grand piano action is different from an upright action and helps to build technique. But you could say that about almost any two different pianos, upright or grand, double escapement notwithstanding.
I'm not really convinced that a grand action is essential to building good technique. Lots of professional pianists learnt on an upright and turned out fine.
Jitin, maybe its the high end pianist that want grands.
Quote
The action on grand usually allow faster repetitions than the one on an upright
How many people can play this well to notice a difference.
I would think for the majority of people a quality upright is enough of a piano. Piano is a hobby for me, so I would not do a grand piano justice. I purchased a new piano 4 years ago, this was going to be my life time piano. I ended up with a Yamaha YUS 5. I also have a Clavinova CLP 575, I use headphones so my husband can have some peace. As I advanced I could really tell the difference between the digital and the schools acoustic. As for maintenance issues, other than tuning every other month, I have not had to have anything else done. Yamaha has a 10 year warranty on new acoustic pianos, so I am not too worried about repairs.
Baby grands were less than I paid for the YUS 5. The store owner said, some baby grands are just really furniture. He suggested a quality upright would be better sounding than a low end baby grand. I do not regret my selection. If a person was going to move a lot or lived in an apartment not the ground floor, it would be difficult to move an upright. My digital weighs less than 175 pounds, the acoustic is a about 510.
People also say a grand piano action is different from an upright action and helps to build technique. But you could say that about almost any two different pianos, upright or grand, double escapement notwithstanding.
I'm not really convinced that a grand action is essential to building good technique. Lots of professional pianists learnt on an upright and turned out fine.
I would say that noise and space would be the main reasons that someone would favour the hybrids over an acoustic upright, and not really the difference in action. Although most people say the grand action has faster repetition, and they are right, most people don't play to that high a level where the upright action is the limiting factor. Even then, not many advanced repertoire require that kind of repetition.
People also say a grand piano action is different from an upright action and helps to build technique. But you could say that about almost any two different pianos, upright or grand, double escapement notwithstanding.
I'm not really convinced that a grand action is essential to building good technique. Lots of professional pianists learnt on an upright and turned out fine.
As I pointed out elsewhere, Chopin played on an upright when he gave lessons, and on a single-action grand elsewhere.
A good upright is better than an aging grand where problems start happening. A good upright is better than a digital . A bad upright which is aging is not as good as a good digital . A bad upright takes up less room than a bad grand and is easier to live with . What is good?
I would certainly get an acoustic if I had the space downstairs and could play silently. But neither is possible. As for the speed of the action, that is not really a limiting factor for most people, more a matter of technique, assuming a properly regulated acoustic whilst actions like my on my Roland LX7 are perfectly adequate.
I don't think you can count your LX7 in the upright class. Although it is a simulated action, it is simulating a grand, not an upright, for example in it handling of fast repetition, etc.
Just to add fuel to the fire, I know many here don't read the posts over in the PW digital forum so I am carrying over here a post from there.
A long-time PW forum member who had attended the conservatory for piano performance has made the rather astounding claim that the Kawai Novus NV10 and the Yamaha Avantgrand hybrids already now play better than all except a handful of the most well-maintained and well-regulated acoustical grand pianos for the discerning professional pianist. He explains his position and reviews his credentials in the first post of that thread.
Note he is comparing these top hybrid digitals not to an acoustical upright, but grands, so his position vis-a-vis uprights can already be supposed. Later in the thread, he clarifies that with respect to digitals and his acoustical grand comparison, he is only including the Kawai NV10 and the Yamaha N1, 2, 3 line, and not all digitals.
If you disagree with his viewpoint and assessment, you might want to also post your objection to his original thread I linked above, so he himself can address any points raised.
The main reason I favor a grand is because they are much more comfortable to play regardless of the music. My hand shape is such that I end up playing a lot between the black keys close the fallboard. The grands also tend to be a lot more responsive in touch and have better dynamic control. Also I do not like the way uprights project the sound when I play them. So the repetition speed is not the only difference.
As for the digitals, they have their use but could never replace the acoustics for me because of the sound properties. I think a big part of learning to play is to learn to adjust to the changes in the sound of the pianos you play. With a digital it's easy to forget this and stop listening to what is happening because it always stays the same. And yes, I do have a Roland where I can tweak the sound a lot, but that is not how I want to use my time...
... Could someone shed light on this , specifically , why people get say an nv10 /yamaha n1x type of piano over a acoustic upright (I am not including people who cannot get acoustic because of volume /maintenance issues)?
A good digital could be a superior piano to a poor (or old and badly maintained) upright, but a good upright will be better as a piano than any digital. That's not taking into account things like silent operation, recording etc.
Similarly, a good upright is better than a poor grand. When, in 1977, I bought my YAMAHA UX - top of the line upright, I was offered a YAMAHA G1 baby grand - I went and tried one out - very disappointing, the UX was far superior.
Move up the scale - a top of the line Schimmel, Seiler, Grotrian, Petrof (or similar) upright would likely be a better piano than an entry level 6' grand.
but a good upright will be better as a piano than any digital. That's not taking into account things like silent operation, recording etc.
Yes, well the claim made here is not about "any digital" but specifically about 4 hybrid digitals, NV10, N1, N2, and N3 being better than all except the finest grands.
I don't think you can count your LX7 in the upright class. Although it is a simulated action, it is simulating a grand, not an upright, for example in it handling of fast repetition, etc.
I don't think you can count the LX7 as a grand! And I think you will find it is the LX706/8 that attempts to simulate a grand. Still doesn't put them in the grand class.
I don't think you can count the LX7 as a grand! And I think you will find it is the LX706/8 that attempts to simulate a grand. Still doesn't put them in the grand class.
For me it's close enough. I have no trouble going between the PH50 action of my FP90 and a grand. The most important thing for me is the responsiveness, which is very grand-like. Some days I decide I want an NV-10 or AvantGrand, but mostly I feel like it wouldn't really be an advantage at all. I would like the bass to be heavier though. I'm considering performing surgery on it...
A lot of it comes down to good sales and bad uprights. A good upright (doesn't need to be super special with magnetic accelerated action and so on) is most of the time more than good enough for most music for most people. People often tell me that their digital plays so much better than any upright. In that case I take them to a store that has the top of the line digitals and my upright (and some other good uprights). In the end they agree that, yes the digitals are very good, but also the good upright just feels and sounds better. In the very specific niches like crazy fast repetition (that most people cannot even accomplish when requested to do as an exercize let alone when playing music on their own level) the digital might have an edge but in general its just a lot of good sales to hide artificial sound through at best mediocre speakers. Now there's a lot of bad uprights or badly maintained uprights that give uprights a bad name.
that most people cannot even accomplish when requested to do as an exercize let alone when playing music on their own level
Probably that's because no one has taught those people that fast repetition of a single key must be done with two fingers, which although I am a mere beginner, Youtube has already taught me
that most people cannot even accomplish when requested to do as an exercize let alone when playing music on their own level
Probably that's because no one has taught those people that fast repetition of a single key must be done with two fingers, which although I am a mere beginner, Youtube has already taught me
that most people cannot even accomplish when requested to do as an exercize let alone when playing music on their own level
Probably that's because no one has taught those people that fast repetition of a single key must be done with two fingers, which although I am a mere beginner, Youtube has already taught me
Surely it should be three fingers not two!
Can it be done with three? You should make a Youtube video with fast repetition with three fingers. I've only seen the videos showing how two finger are needed for fast repetitions I can't even picture how three fingers would work. Seems like it would be awfully crowded unless you had very thin fingers!
that most people cannot even accomplish when requested to do as an exercize let alone when playing music on their own level
Probably that's because no one has taught those people that fast repetition of a single key must be done with two fingers, which although I am a mere beginner, Youtube has already taught me
Surely it should be three fingers not two!
Can it be done with three? You should make a Youtube video with fast repetition with three fingers. I've only seen the videos showing how two finger are needed for fast repetitions I can't even picture how three fingers would work. Seems like it would be awfully crowded unless you had very thin fingers!
Three seems to be fairly standard - even as a bad repeated note player I use one (shame on me) or three (ah, that's better): It would be interesting to see the two finger version. Oh, and he says it won't work on an upright (here we go) which is what I've been using, but of course I don't play that fast.
that most people cannot even accomplish when requested to do as an exercize let alone when playing music on their own level
Probably that's because no one has taught those people that fast repetition of a single key must be done with two fingers, which although I am a mere beginner, Youtube has already taught me
Surely it should be three fingers not two!
Can it be done with three? You should make a Youtube video with fast repetition with three fingers. I've only seen the videos showing how two finger are needed for fast repetitions I can't even picture how three fingers would work. Seems like it would be awfully crowded unless you had very thin fingers!
Three fingers , 3,2,1 is the 'standard' way - have a look at the fingering for Fur Elise.
@Tyrone Slothrop You just demonstrated what I meant to say. A completely useless technique when it comes to making music. Please do me the repeated notes in pianissimo using that technique.. O yes, such a metric does well on a review site but how useful is it really? The same reason that absolutely useless camera's always score high on review sites. O yeah you might need fast repeated notes in Liszts Hungarian rhapsodies but I bet you that 99% of the people discussing this nonsense can't even play a bar of those pieces in appropriate tempo and that is not due to the limitations of their piano.
With regards to the video: of course it works on an upright, just not on a badly designed, badly regulated and worn out upright. With regards to the fingering in Für Elise, that is utter nonsense, you should never play it so fast as to require said technique for speed.
@Tyrone Slothrop You just demonstrated what I meant to say. A completely useless technique when it comes to making music. Please do me the repeated notes in pianissimo using that technique.. O yes, such a metric does well on a review site but how useful is it really? The same reason that absolutely useless camera's always score high on review sites. O yeah you might need fast repeated notes in Liszts Hungarian rhapsodies but I bet you that 99% of the people discussing this nonsense can't even play a bar of those pieces in appropriate tempo and that is not due to the limitations of their piano.
With regards to the video: of course it works on an upright, just not on a badly designed, badly regulated and worn out upright. With regards to the fingering in Für Elise, that is utter nonsense, you should never play it so fast as to require said technique for speed.
I'm not disputing it can't be done on an upright. Forum member, ando, plays Ondine on his upright and that one even has very rapid pianississimo repeating 32nd notes, which seems to show that one can play anything on an upright with the appropriate technique. Again, just a beginner here - can't do any of these things, but just watching youtube videos (although, have done the fast repetition with two though - that doesn't require so much skill as long as it is an exercise and not real music! )
……….....With regards to the video: of course it works on an upright, just not on a badly designed, badly regulated and worn out upright. With regards to the fingering in Für Elise, that is utter nonsense, you should never play it so fast as to require said technique for speed.
It's interesting, though, that the upright 'can't do' has become a kind of mantra that's been repeated so often that it is rarely questioned. Most of us just ignore it and carry on playing uprights. In the video he is also claiming that the 3-2-1 fingering is more expressive than just using the one finger, btw, but my suspicion is that putting it in Für Elise is more to do with introducing the concept early because the piece is often taught at an early stage - which is a pity because the technique to play it well may not be there.
A good musician is a good musician and can deliver a good performance on an adequate instrument - digital, vertical acoustic or grand. Too many people get sucked into the better tool mantra...If I had a better tool I could do a better job, if I had a better boat I could catch more fish, etc.
Yes, grands are better than verticals which are better than digitals. But how much for the average player?
I've written this many times...The best pianist I know has a vertical in his home. This guy can sit in with any group, playing any type of music and hold his own. Classical, of course. Cramer slip notes? No problem. Southern gospel? Give him an Amen! He's just good.
Well, I prefer a grand, but I do not "not favor" an upright. I have both and I enjoy both. Also, my older Kawai K48A upright has never had a key to fail to reset before I could play it again, and my back-woods, hillbilly piano playing repetitions can get pretty fast. Sort of like when you're running from the revenuers when they find your moonshine still (just kidding, although my granddaddy was a notorious moonshiner for real).
But my repetitions on the upright can be pretty quick without a problem. If I didn't have room for a grand, the upright would be just fine.
I've read here on these forums over the years that few people would ever notice any issues with playing repetitions on a good quality, well regulated upright piano.
In my opinion the main advantage of the grand piano's action is that it gives much more control when playing p and pp, mainly because of it's escapement mechanism. Because of this grand piano's action generally feels to me more precise, more controllable, and therefore more pleasurable.
Talking about the repeated notes, not only it allows faster repetition, but it also allows to play repeated chords very smoothly, without releasing the keys fully, something I miss very much on my home upright piano.
In my opinion the main advantage of the grand piano's action is that it gives much more control when playing p and pp, mainly because of it's escapement mechanism. Because of this grand piano's action generally feels to me more precise, more controllable, and therefore more pleasurable.
Talking about the repeated notes, not only it allows faster repetition, but it also allows to play repeated chords very smoothly, without releasing the keys fully, something I miss very much on my home upright piano.
Ha, thank you, I mentioned this on another thread in respect of my tests of some "entry level" uprights in comparison with various digital pianos, grands and my own acoustic upright (where this is also possible). I was told in no uncertain terms that I was talking nonsense.
In my opinion the main advantage of the grand piano's action is that it gives much more control when playing p and pp, mainly because of it's escapement mechanism.
Why do you think the escapement mechanism gives more control for soft playing?
In my opinion the main advantage of the grand piano's action is that it gives much more control when playing p and pp, mainly because of it's escapement mechanism. Because of this grand piano's action generally feels to me more precise, more controllable, and therefore more pleasurable.
Talking about the repeated notes, not only it allows faster repetition, but it also allows to play repeated chords very smoothly, without releasing the keys fully, something I miss very much on my home upright piano.
Ha, thank you, I mentioned this on another thread in respect of my tests of some "entry level" uprights in comparison with various digital pianos, grands and my own acoustic upright (where this is also possible). I was told in no uncertain terms that I was talking nonsense.
Unless you can give a reason why playing repeated but slow chords(the example you gave was the Chopin e minor Prelude)should be easier with the escapement mechanism, I remain unconvinced that that is correct.
For me it isn't a decrease in the ability to play fast repetitions on an upright that is most noticeable, but the inability to play slow repetitions legato. This crops up literally all the time. To have to allow the key to fully rise on repetitions in especially slow passages makes a noticeable unavoidable break in the sound. The only way to compensate for this is to over-pedal with the sustain, which then loses all the crisp clearness that is so lovely in for example Mozart adagio movements. I don't see how even a highly skilled pianist on an upright could fully overcome this. Compensate in other ways of course, but this remains a large deficiency of uprights.
For me it isn't a decrease in the ability to play fast repetitions on an upright that is most noticeable, but the inability to play slow repetitions legato. This crops up literally all the time. To have to allow the key to fully rise on repetitions in especially slow passages makes a noticeable unavoidable break in the sound. The only way to compensate for this is to over-pedal with the sustain, which then loses all the crisp clearness that is so lovely in for example Mozart adagio movements. I don't see how even a highly skilled pianist on an upright could fully overcome this. Compensate in other ways of course, but this remains a large deficiency of uprights.
But after the hammer has struck the key, there's nothing you can do to make less of a break in sound other than use the pedal so I don't see why what you say is true. Can you explain why there would be more of a break in the sound when the grand action is not available?
Not to mention digital sounds get outdated real fast!
I don't actually agree with this statement. Don't get tricked by marketing illusions. They get updated or replaced quickly but that doesn't make them outdated. I have a Roland RD 300s from 1990. Yes, it "only" has 8 voices, yes it has less polyphony, yes, it is screenless. but it works as well as the day I bought it and nobody can tell it from my newer (2011) RD 700NX.
Since that date I could have bought two newer versions but firstly I can't afford it and secondly I didn't want the RD800 and also I am a trifle underwhelmed by the "modern styling" of the RD 2000. I like to sit at a piano, not a flight control deck.
So don't get conned or pressured into thinking new always equals better.
It doesn't always, and "improvements" are often too minor to bother with.
For me it isn't a decrease in the ability to play fast repetitions on an upright that is most noticeable, but the inability to play slow repetitions legato. This crops up literally all the time. To have to allow the key to fully rise on repetitions in especially slow passages makes a noticeable unavoidable break in the sound. The only way to compensate for this is to over-pedal with the sustain, which then loses all the crisp clearness that is so lovely in for example Mozart adagio movements. I don't see how even a highly skilled pianist on an upright could fully overcome this. Compensate in other ways of course, but this remains a large deficiency of uprights.
This is all about the pianist,or how well the piano is regulated. It is often a case with grand pianos as well . ,
This thead is really just about "should I buy a digital which is cheaper and save for a grand piano " If you buy a good upright it will help you become a really advanced pianist and then you could trade in and buy a newish good grand .Problem Solved !
No, it's a wall that can only be overcome with double escapement. You can get your letoff, drop, and damper height regulated to a concert level on an upright and you would still have to wait until a key fully rose to play it again on an upright. Regardless of the pianist's skill.
For me it isn't a decrease in the ability to play fast repetitions on an upright that is most noticeable, but the inability to play slow repetitions legato. This crops up literally all the time. To have to allow the key to fully rise on repetitions in especially slow passages makes a noticeable unavoidable break in the sound. The only way to compensate for this is to over-pedal with the sustain, which then loses all the crisp clearness that is so lovely in for example Mozart adagio movements. I don't see how even a highly skilled pianist on an upright could fully overcome this. Compensate in other ways of course, but this remains a large deficiency of uprights.
But after the hammer has struck the key, there's nothing you can do to make less of a break in sound other than use the pedal so I don't see why what you say is true. Can you explain why there would be more of a break in the sound when the grand action is not available?
I think what he means is this:
With an upright action, you have to let the key rise fully before you can strike it again. And by rising fully, it also lowers the damper on the string. So on a upright you cannot play a repeated note legato with itself (without pedal), without damping it between two strikes.
With a grand action you can do this, because you can restrike the key after it has risen only about half way (just above the let off point), at which time the damper has not been lowered onto the string yet (that happens only upon full release).
In my opinion the main advantage of the grand piano's action is that it gives much more control when playing p and pp, mainly because of it's escapement mechanism. Because of this grand piano's action generally feels to me more precise, more controllable, and therefore more pleasurable.
Talking about the repeated notes, not only it allows faster repetition, but it also allows to play repeated chords very smoothly, without releasing the keys fully, something I miss very much on my home upright piano.
Ha, thank you, I mentioned this on another thread in respect of my tests of some "entry level" uprights in comparison with various digital pianos, grands and my own acoustic upright (where this is also possible). I was told in no uncertain terms that I was talking nonsense.
Unless you can give a reason why playing repeated but slow chords(the example you gave was the Chopin e minor Prelude)should be easier with the escapement mechanism, I remain unconvinced that that is correct.
Well for a start, I don’t know just how slowly you play that piece but they are not especially slow chords when played at the appropriate speed. I believe I explained the reason already, as have others on this thread. I suggest you go and try to repeat notes on an entry level upright without letting the keys fully return first, then report back. (Am I getting the condescending tone right for this forum now? 😉)
For me it isn't a decrease in the ability to play fast repetitions on an upright that is most noticeable, but the inability to play slow repetitions legato. This crops up literally all the time. To have to allow the key to fully rise on repetitions in especially slow passages makes a noticeable unavoidable break in the sound. The only way to compensate for this is to over-pedal with the sustain, which then loses all the crisp clearness that is so lovely in for example Mozart adagio movements. I don't see how even a highly skilled pianist on an upright could fully overcome this. Compensate in other ways of course, but this remains a large deficiency of uprights.
But after the hammer has struck the key, there's nothing you can do to make less of a break in sound other than use the pedal so I don't see why what you say is true. Can you explain why there would be more of a break in the sound when the grand action is not available?
I think what he means is this:
With an upright action, you have to let the key rise fully before you can strike it again. And by rising fully, it also lowers the damper on the string. So on a upright you cannot play a repeated note legato with itself (without pedal), without damping it between two strikes.
With a grand action you can do this, because you can restrike the key after it has risen only about half way (just above the let off point), at which time the damper has not been lowered onto the string yet (that happens only upon full release).
Thanks, I think that makes sense. So I agree with the "easier to play legato without pedal" part but not with the "easier to play pp" another poster mentioned unless someone can give a good reason for that.
I am the OP of this thread , and my main question was getting a digital with grand action or acoustic upright?
Why one is preferable if this will be your last piano o!??!!
I think which is preferable depends on your situation and personal preferences. For example, one of the main reasons for getting a digital or hybrid is the ability to play with headphones. But if you don't have neighbors in a nearby apartment or other people living with you that wouldn't apply. If you check out The Piano Buyer(free link in left column)they have lists showing the advantages and disadvantages of grands, uprights, and digital/hybrids.
I am the OP of this thread , and my main question was getting a digital with grand action or acoustic upright?
Why one is preferable if this will be your last piano o!??!!
Hi Jitin, I think this has been said before on this thread but I would expect if you have the budget then a *good* upright (ie not with the limitations I and others have mentioned) is generally preferable on pure action and sound terms. If you have a need to play with headphones or you want to do a lot of recording (an amazingly useful practice function as I’m finding already) then you might want a digital piano, as pianoloverus said. If it’s your last piano and you don’t need the digital functionality then I’d suggest you go for a really nice upright. 😊
This thead is really just about "should I buy a digital which is cheaper and save for a grand piano " If you buy a good upright it will help you become a really advanced pianist and then you could trade in and buy a newish good grand .Problem Solved !
I have just tried on my upright and yes I am very able to play repeated changing chords legato -no pedal . I am easily able to depress the chord again BEFORE THE CHORD TOTALLY RISES thereby enabling Legato in the LH So is this because the piano has Double Repetition Action being a SAUTER130 I do not know . I do remember difficulties with my old Yamaha U1. On my old Kawai grand I could also easily do this as well .
I am the OP of this thread , and my main question was getting a digital with grand action or acoustic upright?
Why one is preferable if this will be your last piano o!??!!
As you can see from the responses, it's a question of your priorities. Perhaps everyone would like a concert grand and their own concert hall to play it in.
Of course one does not have to buy an expensive upright just a reasonable one and work on things like "a slight touch" of pedal for not having too dry an affect in the above situations described. Good digital pianos also have there place in some circumstances as well.
As you can see from the responses, it's a question of your priorities. Perhaps everyone would like a concert grand and their own concert hall to play it in.
Very true.
Reminds me of an old saying my mom would use on occasion; "you can't drink Champagne on beer money".
As you can see from the responses, it's a question of your priorities. Perhaps everyone would like a concert grand and their own concert hall to play it in.
Very true.
Reminds me of an old saying my mom would use on occasion; "you can't drink Champagne on beer money".
Rick
Well our house is paid for and even though the new piano was a big expense for us in our retirement years we bought it .It does give us joy .We did sell the old grand and the U1 and I do still keep a few Piano students but I suppose it is like drinking champagne on beer money .Oh well ?
I am the OP of this thread , and my main question was getting a digital with grand action or acoustic upright?
Why one is preferable if this will be your last piano o!??!!
As you can see from the responses, it's a question of your priorities. Perhaps everyone would like a concert grand and their own concert hall to play it in.
Of course! And that’s another lovely thing about my new DP (which I will review in comparison with my upright when I’ve had a few days with both). I have the choice of umpteen different concert grands to imagine I’m playing. That’s the “toy†side of it, it wasn’t my main reason for acquiring it, but what a toy!
The last thread of vertical piano deficiencies soon slowed down when a Youtube showed the same pianist playing LA Campanella on a street piano . Bravo Lisitsa!
I find it a bit amusing that some people have such need to prove that there's no reason to get a grand piano, a digital or an upright is just as good. However I think one should have had all three options at home to have an informed opinion. Even if a lot depends on the properties of individual instruments and also one's preference of music and playing style. I have a higher priced new upright, a cheap old grand and a rather good digital. After many years of playing there's no question that the grand wins this battle easily...
I find it a bit amusing that some people have such need to prove that there's no reason to get a grand piano, a digital or an upright is just as good. However I think one should have had all three options at home to have an informed opinion. Even if a lot depends on the properties of individual instruments and also one's preference of music and playing style. I have a higher priced new upright, a cheap old grand and a rather good digital. After many years of playing there's no question that the grand wins this battle easily...
That's fine outdo but not everyone can afford all those pianos . There is no question that a good grand is great .The question was asked can one on an upright play repeated.legato chords without the pedal -I discovered yes on my upright it is easy .You can depress the chord again before the notes fully ascend .Say again YES !
I find it a bit amusing that some people have such need to prove that there's no reason to get a grand piano, a digital or an upright is just as good. However I think one should have had all three options at home to have an informed opinion. Even if a lot depends on the properties of individual instruments and also one's preference of music and playing style. I have a higher priced new upright, a cheap old grand and a rather good digital. After many years of playing there's no question that the grand wins this battle easily...
That's fine outdo but not everyone can afford all those pianos . There is no question that a good grand is great .The question was asked can one on an upright play repeated.legato chords without the pedal -I discovered yes on my upright it is easy .You can depress the chord again before the notes fully ascend .Say again YES !
There will always be considerations about space and money. I know this very well living in an apartment and all my pianos were bought on credit
I find it a bit amusing that some people have such need to prove that there's no reason to get a grand piano, a digital or an upright is just as good. However I think one should have had all three options at home to have an informed opinion. Even if a lot depends on the properties of individual instruments and also one's preference of music and playing style. I have a higher priced new upright, a cheap old grand and a rather good digital. After many years of playing there's no question that the grand wins this battle easily...
That's fine outdo but not everyone can afford all those pianos . There is no question that a good grand is great .The question was asked can one on an upright play repeated.legato chords without the pedal -I discovered yes on my upright it is easy .You can depress the chord again before the notes fully ascend .Say again YES !
There will always be considerations about space and money. I know this very well living in an apartment and all my pianos were bought on credit
Yes I understand and ,well these instruments are costly and as you say take up space .I am glad that your grand is fine ,and you have a a lovely upright.
Some people upgrade to an upright from a grand. There's more to a piano than just the type of action after all. A phenomenal upright is a phenomenal piano. A mediocre grand is a mediocre one.
I find it a bit amusing that some people have such need to prove that there's no reason to get a grand piano, a digital or an upright is just as good. However I think one should have had all three options at home to have an informed opinion. Even if a lot depends on the properties of individual instruments and also one's preference of music and playing style. I have a higher priced new upright, a cheap old grand and a rather good digital. After many years of playing there's no question that the grand wins this battle easily...
That's fine outdo but not everyone can afford all those pianos . There is no question that a good grand is great .The question was asked can one on an upright play repeated.legato chords without the pedal -I discovered yes on my upright it is easy .You can depress the chord again before the notes fully ascend .Say again YES !
There will always be considerations about space and money. I know this very well living in an apartment and all my pianos were bought on credit
Yes I understand and ,well these instruments are costly and as you say take up space .I am glad that your grand is fine ,and you have a a lovely upright.
I find it a bit amusing that some people have such need to prove that there's no reason to get a grand piano, a digital or an upright is just as good. However I think one should have had all three options at home to have an informed opinion. Even if a lot depends on the properties of individual instruments and also one's preference of music and playing style. I have a higher priced new upright, a cheap old grand and a rather good digital. After many years of playing there's no question that the grand wins this battle easily...
That's fine outdo but not everyone can afford all those pianos . There is no question that a good grand is great .The question was asked can one on an upright play repeated.legato chords without the pedal -I discovered yes on my upright it is easy .You can depress the chord again before the notes fully ascend .Say again YES !
Mine too. But it should be clear to everyone by now (I hope) that there are different quality upright pianos just as there are different quality grand pianos and different quality digital pianos. Fairly obviously there’s a big difference between finding a way to play advanced (or even not so advanced) pieces on a bad piano - as some have rightly pointed out any half decent pianist can do that - and having to permanently change how one plays to accommodate a bad piano that one happens to own. Grands can be very bad too!
Surely the obvious conclusion to draw is that if one is serious about playing then a good piano is necessary which will accommodate normal technique, but that could be an upright, grand or digital according to circumstances.
@outo, the point I was trying to make was not that a grand is not better than an upright, it is that the negative sentiment surrounding uprights is not based on relevant facts. When one has no constraints in space, sound (e.g. no complaining neighbors) and budget an obvious choice would be a grand piano. The level of control in a grand piano is more based on the length of the keys (length of the lever) by the way than on letoff. That's a major part of the reason why Schimmel puts long keys in smaller grands.
The level of control in a grand piano is more based on the length of the keys (length of the lever) by the way than on letoff. That's a major part of the reason why Schimmel puts long keys in smaller grands.
This isn't really the case. Both sides of the "seesaw" are longer, so you still have a key that descends by roughly 10mm to raise a hammer by roughly 45mm. The advantage of longer keys is that the playable area is a smaller proportion of the lever, so the difference in leverage between the back and front of the key is not as great as it is with shorter keys. Piano companies who try to present this as anything else are wrong. Not all of them do BTW.
My two cents. When you want to get a piano, you have several options. - Digital piano - Digital piano with real action (hybrid digital, like Yamaha AvantGrand or Kawai Novus) - Upright piano - Upright piano with silent system (hybrid upright) - Grand piano - Grand piano with silent system (hybrid grand) Hybrid uprights and grands can even go one step further and have digital sound production without earphones; like in the Yamaha TransAcoustic or Blüthner e-volution. But in my opinion these are just special cases of hybrid uprights or grands.
Each has advantages and disadvantages. And in the end, it depends on your preference. Here are some advantages and disadvantages I can think of. I have played on digitals, uprights and grands, and own a grand piano with silent system.
Advantages of digitals and uprights: They don't take much space. Advantage of digitals: They are cheaper than acoustic instruments and don't require tuning. Advantages of digitals and hybrids: You can play in silent mode, without annoying the neighbors. Plus, you can make digital recordings. Advantages of acoustics (both upright and grand): You know how loud the piano is supposed to sound; and are not tempted to set the loudspeakers at too weak a volume, and compensate by playing extra hard (I know this from personal experience). Advantages of hybrid digitals and grands: The action. Other posters already mentioned it; gravity works in your favour.
Possible disadvantage of hybrid acoustics: Some players say that building a silent system in an acoustic piano affects the action in a negative way. Personally, I didn't notice; but then, maybe this is just me. Just like there are people who say that they don't notice a significant difference between a grand and upright action. Disadvantage of grands: They are expensive and take a lot of place. And they are LOUD. I noticed after getting my Yamaha C2 SG that I underestimated its power a bit. When I play it can be heard in the whole house. And I live in an apartment in a 7-floor house.
About the beauty of sound... This is a matter of personal taste. A well-tuned big acoustic with good soundboard will probably sound better than any digital; but as soon as it gets out of tune... A small upright or grand might sound a bit strained and with a weak bass; possibly less convincing than a good digital with good loudspeakers.
But in the end: Just try out lots of pianos, and pick the one you like best.
BTW WimPiano, I didn't mean to contradict what you said. I was referring to the explanation given by piano companies that misses the point. More uniform leverage gives more uniform key travel, which allows more control at the back of the key, which is better control overall. Some good uprights have fairly long keys as well.
As you can see from the responses, it's a question of your priorities. Perhaps everyone would like a concert grand and their own concert hall to play it in.
Very true.
Reminds me of an old saying my mom would use on occasion; "you can't drink Champagne on beer money".
Rick
It wasn't till I retired that I could afford a good grand - yes I suppose I could have earlier, but financially it was the right time. And besides, I've now got time to enjoy it which I didn't as much while I was working long hours.
It wasn't till I retired that I could afford a good grand - yes I suppose I could have earlier, but financially it was the right time. And besides, I've now got time to enjoy it which I didn't as much while I was working long hours.
Sounds like you can afford the Champagne now. Or, have your cake and eat it too...
Getting back on point, I think most people buy a piano they can afford and have room for. Some buy a piano they really can't afford, or have the room for. I've seen individuals who get themselves in financial distress. It is no way to live. A piano is a luxury item and not really a necessity. If you can afford the expensive wants and toys, that is a blessing. If you can't, get what you can afford. Life would be more pleasant and less stressful...
In my opinion the main advantage of the grand piano's action is that it gives much more control when playing p and pp, mainly because of it's escapement mechanism.
Why do you think the escapement mechanism gives more control for soft playing?
Because on a grand piano a little bump partway down the keystroke can be felt.
outo has a Blüthner grand if I remember correctly. The profile says
Quote
Yamaha, Roland, Bluthner
Yes, it is a Bluthner grand from the Soviet era, around 1950. It's less than 160 cm long so a baby grand. I am very pleased with it and my playing has improved a lot. My upright is a Yamaha U1 silent.
A well-tuned big acoustic with good soundboard will probably sound better than any digital; but as soon as it gets out of tune...
What is personally amazing to me is that obviously people not only get used to pianos being out-of-tune, among the digital VST, there seems to be a move to desiring features to detune the virtual strings for a more "realistic" sound! And here I was thinking having a perfectly tuned instrument is a goal to aspire to - well for some, it's not!
In my opinion the main advantage of the grand piano's action is that it gives much more control when playing p and pp, mainly because of it's escapement mechanism.
Why do you think the escapement mechanism gives more control for soft playing?
Because on a grand piano a little bump partway down the keystroke can be felt.
It's possible that would help but I'm not sure. To be really aware of it on my Mason BB I have to press the keys more slowly than I would during normal playing.
A well-tuned big acoustic with good soundboard will probably sound better than any digital; but as soon as it gets out of tune...
What is personally amazing to me is that obviously people not only get used to pianos being out-of-tune, among the digital VST, there seems to be a move to desiring features to detune the virtual strings for a more "realistic" sound! And here I was thinking having a perfectly tuned instrument is a goal to aspire to - well for some, it's not!
Worth a thread on its own possibly? I remember a thread on the tuner / technician forum where that subject turned up, and at least one person said that they had had to detune some of the unisons to make the client happy. I'm 'reasonably sure,' btw., that in a large orchestra playing a symphony, concerto or what have you, that not all notes are perfectly in tune across all instruments. In my own case I'm quite happy with a minor degradation in the unisons, but not when the entire note sounds out - adds a bit of 'richness' I guess until it gets to the point 'where only rag-time is playable ;)'
@outo, the point I was trying to make was not that a grand is not better than an upright, it is that the negative sentiment surrounding uprights is not based on relevant facts.
As my tech used to say when I complained about the limitations of my upright compared to the grands my teacher has: An upright and a grand are different instruments. Just like a digital and an acoustic are different instruments. There are pros and cons with each.
However it seems to be common to question the rationality of someone's decision to get a grand. I got this as well when I was looking for one. And usually those arguments were not based on balanced experience on the different kinds of instruments. So I feel I must share my positive experience. I really have not seen that many "negative sentiments" surrounding uprights.
A well-tuned big acoustic with good soundboard will probably sound better than any digital; but as soon as it gets out of tune...
What is personally amazing to me is that obviously people not only get used to pianos being out-of-tune, among the digital VST, there seems to be a move to desiring features to detune the virtual strings for a more "realistic" sound! And here I was thinking having a perfectly tuned instrument is a goal to aspire to - well for some, it's not!
Worth a thread on its own possibly? I remember a thread on the tuner / technician forum where that subject turned up, and at least one person said that they had had to detune some of the unisons to make the client happy. I'm 'reasonably sure,' btw., that in a large orchestra playing a symphony, concerto or what have you, that not all notes are perfectly in tune across all instruments. In my own case I'm quite happy with a minor degradation in the unisons, but not when the entire note sounds out - adds a bit of 'richness' I guess until it gets to the point 'where only rag-time is playable ;)'
I actually love it that my acoustic pianos have their good and bad days just like their owner
I suppose it would not be very nice if you are both not having a good day on the same day.I remember when my old Kawai grand was having a bad day and I was having a bad Bach day .A fugue which would not gel ?
I am in that position of considering buying as well, and yes, at my age it could be my last piano. Can't really make a decision until I know if I can stay here in Brittany or have to go back to the UK (possible residency problems arising from BREXIT) but I've tried summarizing my 'deliberations.' Not sure it helps, tbh, it just got me more confused, but for what it's worth:
Cost considerations:
Buying: - say 3000 euros will buy a good DP, a reasonable second-hand upright (if it can be found), a basic and probably very unsatisfactory upright (see @Shypianist's comments). - say 5000 euros buys a good DP, a good used upright (but choose wisely) and a new upright that may be satisfactory. - 7 to 9000 buys nearly top range DP, better used upright (but again, choose wisely) and a lowest level European upright, possibly also a lowest level Japanese-made as well. Not tried the Europen upright, but wary that it is the 'entry-level' model - it is cheaper for a reason. - about 9000 to 15000, don't know about DPs, but good (not top-line) new European and Japanese made uprights. Probably some top level uprights second-hand. -above that - well, I'm not even thinking about it!
recent reports here on PW suggest a risk that the DP as delivered may not be good and need repair / replacement, so no guarantee there of a hassle-free purchase. Uprights, no data on that but be prepared for costs of tuning as the piano acclimatizes, and with 2nd hand perhaps for regulation, and if buying privately cost and hassle of arranging delivery.
Running DP. No tuning, but they do develop problems with age - worn felts, strips or what have you. Order of magnitude in terms of cost not a lot. Lifespan? Unknown. Ease of maintenance - I'm used to using acoustic tuner / technicians and haven't managed to suss out any repairers for digital pianos in our region, looks like a fair bit of DIY fixes necessary. Also, consider that those with acoustic action may need fixes, regulation. Acoustic. Regular tuning - at least once a year, say 100 euros p.a., but possibly 2 or more tunings in first year as piano settles in to new environment and possibly more for a new piano. Regulation - not sure how often - in my case it was usually done by the tuner on an on-going basis and rarely meant any extra cost. Lifespan - depends on the piano - some low-end models have been reported (hearsay) pretty-much dead (untuneable / unable to hold tune) after 10 years or less.
Conclusion. - DP probably cheaper, possibly a lot more so, but I am more comfortable with an acoustic because of the availability and competence of tuner technicians. - Preference. Having mostly used uprights, that's my general leaning - but the jury is still out.
* note - this is in Europe, don't know about the situation elsewhere.
Pianoloverus is right! The ability to use headphones was the prime reason for the digital. The 2nd big reason was portability. The Casio weighs 26 lbs. Whenever I get a used keyboard amp, I can gig with the Casio. Probably won’t happen in my lifetime but hey, who knows. I bought my C3 because I love it’s voice, sound, and action. It’s expressive ability beat my upright by miles and even my 5 ft baby grand. If I could only have 1 piano and was limited in space, and close neighbors, I’d be shopping between one of the new fabulous digitals and maybe one of the BIG TALL European uprights with a silent option. It’s too hard to give up an acoustic piano completely. Thankfully, I’m not forced to make that choice yet. As LadyBird tells us, she loves her Sauter upright. I’ve never had the chance to try one. I did really enjoy the big new Yamaha uprights.
I ran out the edit time to add this. One of things I truly love about my C3 is it’s stability. The most temperamental thing it’s done in it’s 7 year lifetime is that when the humidity is high the G5 damper slows it’s return. I will get it fixed at the next tuning. Seriously, the very thought of having a temperamental acoustic grand as my practice piano isn’t good for my emotional well-being. Growing up in my family and working IT for some seriously delusional managers means I paid my dues. I detest emotional equipment in IT, music, and transportation. My C3 reflects my emotions as I play. PERIOD. I don’t have to worry that piano’s having a bad day. Especially since I play and practice more on my bad days. I want a steady, reliable instrument to soothe me. I don’t want a moody, temperamental, grouchy partner in my musical pursuits.
For me it isn't a decrease in the ability to play fast repetitions on an upright that is most noticeable, but the inability to play slow repetitions legato. This crops up literally all the time. To have to allow the key to fully rise on repetitions in especially slow passages makes a noticeable unavoidable break in the sound. The only way to compensate for this is to over-pedal with the sustain, which then loses all the crisp clearness that is so lovely in for example Mozart adagio movements. I don't see how even a highly skilled pianist on an upright could fully overcome this. Compensate in other ways of course, but this remains a large deficiency of uprights.
If you have to lift the key all the way up before repeating then your piano is widely out of regulation. My upright can repeat every time on slow playing from halfway up. I regulate my own upright to its standard specification. Ian
No, it's a wall that can only be overcome with double escapement. You can get your letoff, drop, and damper height regulated to a concert level on an upright and you would still have to wait until a key fully rose to play it again on an upright. Regardless of the pianist's skill.
For me it isn't a decrease in the ability to play fast repetitions on an upright that is most noticeable, but the inability to play slow repetitions legato. This crops up literally all the time. To have to allow the key to fully rise on repetitions in especially slow passages makes a noticeable unavoidable break in the sound. The only way to compensate for this is to over-pedal with the sustain, which then loses all the crisp clearness that is so lovely in for example Mozart adagio movements. I don't see how even a highly skilled pianist on an upright could fully overcome this. Compensate in other ways of course, but this remains a large deficiency of uprights.
But after the hammer has struck the key, there's nothing you can do to make less of a break in sound other than use the pedal so I don't see why what you say is true. Can you explain why there would be more of a break in the sound when the grand action is not available?
I think what he means is this:
With an upright action, you have to let the key rise fully before you can strike it again. And by rising fully, it also lowers the damper on the string. So on a upright you cannot play a repeated note legato with itself (without pedal), without damping it between two strikes.
With a grand action you can do this, because you can restrike the key after it has risen only about half way (just above the let off point), at which time the damper has not been lowered onto the string yet (that happens only upon full release).
I have just refuted Sanfrancisco's statement but I will now do similar with your statement. I have just checked my piano and I can on slow playing repeat from halfway up without the damper seating. I admit that my Renner regulation has to be very precise to achieve this. Ian
For me it isn't a decrease in the ability to play fast repetitions on an upright that is most noticeable, but the inability to play slow repetitions legato. This crops up literally all the time. To have to allow the key to fully rise on repetitions in especially slow passages makes a noticeable unavoidable break in the sound. The only way to compensate for this is to over-pedal with the sustain, which then loses all the crisp clearness that is so lovely in for example Mozart adagio movements. I don't see how even a highly skilled pianist on an upright could fully overcome this. Compensate in other ways of course, but this remains a large deficiency of uprights.
If you have to lift the key all the way up before repeating then your piano is widely out of regulation. My upright can repeat every time on slow playing from halfway up. I regulate my own upright to its standard specification. Ian
So can mine, but some cheaper new uprights I have tried (as mentioned up thread) definitely cannot. So either the dealer is selling new pianos that are wildly out of regulation, or it’s a design defect in *some* uprights.
For me it isn't a decrease in the ability to play fast repetitions on an upright that is most noticeable, but the inability to play slow repetitions legato. This crops up literally all the time. To have to allow the key to fully rise on repetitions in especially slow passages makes a noticeable unavoidable break in the sound. The only way to compensate for this is to over-pedal with the sustain, which then loses all the crisp clearness that is so lovely in for example Mozart adagio movements. I don't see how even a highly skilled pianist on an upright could fully overcome this. Compensate in other ways of course, but this remains a large deficiency of uprights.
If you have to lift the key all the way up before repeating then your piano is widely out of regulation. My upright can repeat every time on slow playing from halfway up. I regulate my own upright to its standard specification. Ian
So can mine, but some cheaper new uprights I have tried (as mentioned up thread) definitely cannot. So either the dealer is selling new pianos that are wildly out of regulation, or it’s a design defect in *some* uprights.
Mine did too (well it still does, but it needs a lot of work) and that's on a Herrburger Brooks action. Unfortunately that company is now defunct. It's the new (well, newish) world order, sadly.
So can mine, but some cheaper new uprights I have tried (as mentioned up thread) definitely cannot. So either the dealer is selling new pianos that are wildly out of regulation, or it’s a design defect in *some* uprights.
Mine did too (well it still does, but it needs a lot of work) and that's on a Herrburger Brooks action. Unfortunately that company is now defunct. It's the new (well, newish) world order, sadly.
I haven't the faintest idea what action my upright has, but it's (finally!) being tuned in a couple of weeks time so I will be quizzing my technician. ;-)
So can mine, but some cheaper new uprights I have tried (as mentioned up thread) definitely cannot. So either the dealer is selling new pianos that are wildly out of regulation, or it’s a design defect in *some* uprights.
Mine did too (well it still does, but it needs a lot of work) and that's on a Herrburger Brooks action. Unfortunately that company is now defunct. It's the new (well, newish) world order, sadly.
I haven't the faintest idea what action my upright has, but it's (finally!) being tuned in a couple of weeks time so I will be quizzing my technician. ;-)
I didn't either until I discussed it on the Tuner Technicians forum - from the photos I showed one advised that it was either Renner or Herrburger Brooks. I found a name plate on the action itself - thoughtfully screwed through but enough lettering was visible. I'm not saying it's a great action, but it was the best I could afford at the time and better than the others in my price range, which incidentally included a Petrof which I disliked intensely - too 'stiff.' Petrof are still going strong and are the most likely candidate if I'm looking for a new piano because of their prices - oh, the irony
I ran out the edit time to add this. One of things I truly love about my C3 is it’s stability. The most temperamental thing it’s done in it’s 7 year lifetime is that when the humidity is high the G5 damper slows it’s return. I will get it fixed at the next tuning. Seriously, the very thought of having a temperamental acoustic grand as my practice piano isn’t good for my emotional well-being. Growing up in my family and working IT for some seriously delusional managers means I paid my dues. I detest emotional equipment in IT, music, and transportation. My C3 reflects my emotions as I play. PERIOD. I don’t have to worry that piano’s having a bad day. Especially since I play and practice more on my bad days. I want a steady, reliable instrument to soothe me. I don’t want a moody, temperamental, grouchy partner in my musical pursuits.
My grand isn't that moody either, actually it keeps the tuning very well. But I live in a rather extreme climate and all acoustic pianos, no matter how stable, do get affected when the temperature outside suddenly changes from +5C to -20+C...I do have humidifiers but they cannot always keep up. During the summer there are no problems with tuning stability.
However I have never met an acoustic piano that doesn't have slight changes in tone from day to day. Maybe they are too tiny for everyone to hear, but I hear them and they are what makes the instruments feel "alive" as opposed to a digital. Even the top quality concert grands can change their tone during one recital.
... One of things I truly love about my C3 is it’s stability. ...
Yes, that's one of the reason why the C3 is used by so many Churches, teachers, and institutions. The other YAMAHA "C" pianos are similar - as are the "U" series uprights (not the Indonesian ones).
If noise was not an issue, I would get a baby grand in a heartbeat vs. a upright.
....but you did not answer the OP's question Ian
I can understand your reason to query this. A baby grand is much more a compromise than a good sized and quality upright, short strings, short keys etc. I've yet to play even a reasonable "baby" grand.
If noise was not an issue, I would get a baby grand in a heartbeat vs. a upright.
....but you did not answer the OP's question Ian
I can understand your reason to query this. A baby grand is much more a compromise than a good sized and quality upright, short strings, short keys etc. I've yet to play even a reasonable "baby" grand.
Well, to each his own..;). My Novis is probably my last piano anyway.
If noise was not an issue, I would get a baby grand in a heartbeat vs. a upright.
....but you did not answer the OP's question Ian
I can understand your reason to query this. A baby grand is much more a compromise than a good sized and quality upright, short strings, short keys etc. I've yet to play even a reasonable "baby" grand.
And I am yet to play an upright I would prefer to my baby grand. No matter how long the strings and how good the repetition, the upright design that affects the touch, pedalling and sound projection is still there. If you like it, then no problem. If not, then a baby grand is probably a better option.
... And I am yet to play an upright I would prefer to my baby grand. No matter how long the strings and how good the repetition, the upright design that affects the touch, pedalling and sound projection is still there. If you like it, then no problem. If not, then a baby grand is probably a better option.
Yes, I'd agree as far as a Tier 1 piano like a Blüthner is concerned - I haven't had the pleasure of playing a baby Blüthner - no dealers here.
I was mainly referring to more consumer grade pianos, as that's where the OP was talking initially.
Ok, I’m probably going to get thoroughly blasted off the Forum for saying this but there is a chunk of piano buyers that accept the “shortcomings†of baby grands and love them even though their piano techs remind them that they’d be better off with a quality upright. I remember when going to the Yamaha website years ago that the GB1, 5 feet in length, was their most popular grand. It might still be. Sorry LadyBird, but I think small grands look decidedly better than a big upright. It sure won’t sound anywhere near as good as your Sauter or a YUS5, but piano makers sell quite a few baby grands. **My apologizes but a large squarish wooden box against the wall with a keyboard and two legs sticking out just isn’t as pretty or sexy as the curves of a grand, even if it is too short. Apparently there’s a market. I’ve descended from my soapbox ðŸ˜
Ok, I’m probably going to get thoroughly blasted off the Forum for saying this but there is a chunk of piano buyers that accept the “shortcomings†of baby grands and love them even though their piano techs remind them that they’d be better off with a quality upright. I remember when going to the Yamaha website years ago that the GB1, 5 feet in length, was their most popular grand. It might still be. Sorry LadyBird, but I think small grands look decidedly better than a big upright. It sure won’t sound anywhere near as good as your Sauter or a YUS5, but piano makers sell quite a few baby grands. **My apologizes but a large squarish wooden box against the wall with a keyboard and two legs sticking out just isn’t as pretty or sexy as the curves of a grand, even if it is too short. Apparently there’s a market. I’ve descended from my soapbox ðŸ˜
Well... I personally hate the way grands look...I only tolerate mine because of the tonal and playing properties...I do not like curved things in general and luckily my grand is very much in line with the communist esthetic: No extra decorations and quite bare in design
outo- isn’t it great that the acoustic piano market has enough options on size, sound, dynamics, color, and aesthetics that we can all find something we love? From sleek modern designs to art case beauty. If I was rich enough I’d have a fleet of fabulous pianos, including some stellar uprights, sitting in a stand alone gigantic studio. I could pick a piano to match my mood. Which reminds me, my odds might improve a teeny tiny bit if I actually start buying lottery tickets. ðŸ˜
outo- isn’t it great that the acoustic piano market has enough options on size, sound, dynamics, color, and aesthetics that we can all find something we love? From sleek modern designs to art case beauty. If I was rich enough I’d have a fleet of fabulous pianos, including some stellar uprights, sitting in a stand alone gigantic studio. I could pick a piano to match my mood. Which reminds me, my odds might improve a teeny tiny bit if I actually start buying lottery tickets. ðŸ˜
I have a dream too...to be one day retired and have the time and space to get all sorts of old pianos, also historical ones such as fortepianos and chlavichords, and learn to work on them as well as play them
I have a similar dream. I have once played a number of Erard grand piano's from the middle of the 19th century and they are utterly wonderful. So wonderful that at times I consider trading in my piano for such a grand. The only caveat is that it is less suitable to improve my control of dynamics due to the very shallow keydip. The shallow keydip allows you to play much faster in a controlled fashion than on you're average upright or grand piano.
I have a similar dream. I have once played a number of Erard grand piano's from the middle of the 19th century and they are utterly wonderful. So wonderful that at times I consider trading in my piano for such a grand. The only caveat is that it is less suitable to improve my control of dynamics due to the very shallow keydip. The shallow keydip allows you to play much faster in a controlled fashion than on you're average upright or grand piano.
There's another slight inconvenience...those old pianos do not tend to keep their tuning the way we are used to. So one should learn to tune as well
Yup, and parts are difficult to source and so on and so on. Another upside though is that these instruments are incredibly beautiful, almost all of them have cases in exquisite woods without looking "over the top", they also tend to be much leaner than the current beefy grand pianos.
I kind of don't care too much about a pianos aesthetic. I'll take a sun spotted, chipped up, re-painted Kawai U model over a polished Young Chang any day of the week.
I have a similar dream. I have once played a number of Erard grand piano's from the middle of the 19th century and they are utterly wonderful. So wonderful that at times I consider trading in my piano for such a grand. The only caveat is that it is less suitable to improve my control of dynamics due to the very shallow keydip. The shallow keydip allows you to play much faster in a controlled fashion than on you're average upright or grand piano.
There's another slight inconvenience...those old pianos do not tend to keep their tuning the way we are used to. So one should learn to tune as well
I go to great efforts to keep the humidity constant in my piano room. My square piano responds by staying in very reasonable tune for months.
Ok, I’m probably going to get thoroughly blasted off the Forum for saying this but there is a chunk of piano buyers that accept the “shortcomings†of baby grands and love them even though their piano techs remind them that they’d be better off with a quality upright. I remember when going to the Yamaha website years ago that the GB1, 5 feet in length, was their most popular grand. It might still be. Sorry LadyBird, but I think small grands look decidedly better than a big upright. It sure won’t sound anywhere near as good as your Sauter or a YUS5, but piano makers sell quite a few baby grands. **My apologizes but a large squarish wooden box against the wall with a keyboard and two legs sticking out just isn’t as pretty or sexy as the curves of a grand, even if it is too short. Apparently there’s a market. I’ve descended from my soapbox ðŸ˜
I only got my own piano when I was I was nearly 12 years old .An old aunt gave us a pre-war Seiler upright.It was the most beautiful thing I had ever seen ,and the tone sang like something I have never heard before ! In those days people had uprights not grands.Somehow there was never anything so wonderful as having a piano in the home. Of course I understand the appeal of having a grand piano in a home They are more pretty and look more dramatic.Even a communist age Grand has this aspect to it. But SORRY J&J my piano does not look like a big black box,at least not to us.
I have. I went to or local Yamaha dealership (purely to salivate) and checked out a few. I've played on a few Clavinovas as well, nothing higher end than that. The tonality, dynamics, and even action just don't feel the same to me. I know many love them but they always feel off to me personally.
The action on well made uprights is superior to any digital I've played.
I have. I went to or local Yamaha dealership (purely to salivate) and checked out a few. I've played on a few Clavinovas as well, nothing higher end than that. The tonality, dynamics, and even action just don't feel the same to me. I know many love them but they always feel off to me personally.
The action on well made uprights is superior to any digital I've played.
Many lower priced digitals do have keyboards that feel "feeble" but some have a really good action, imo superior to most uprights. The sound however of course isn't the same. If one is used to an acoustic, I can see how any digital feels inadequate. But if one has to practice technically difficult music a lot, good digital action can be a good substitute for a grand. If I practice too much with my upright (Yamaha) I get hand problems. Never so with my grand or the digital. As I mentioned before, playing close to the fallboard tends to be hard on uprights and this is not avoidable with advanced music.
Who would choose a digital over an upright for action? Doesn't make a lick of sense.
The best digitals have a grand like action while uprights don't, that's why. Have you tried any?
Really??? Do you believe every bit of marketing you read ?I have one of those digitals that supposed to have a "grand like action" I can say no it does not! I have tried many digitals that supposed to have this magic action.No they do not! Perhaps the silent mode on your upright is affecting the action.
Who would choose a digital over an upright for action? Doesn't make a lick of sense.
The best digitals have a grand like action while uprights don't, that's why. Have you tried any?
Really??? Do you believe every bit of marketing you read ?I have one of those digitals that supposed to have a "grand like action" I can say no it does not! I have tried many digitals that supposed to have this magic action.No they do not! Perhaps the silent mode on your upright is affecting the action.
I have played many other uprights, not just my own and so far all of them have had limitations in their action. Also I have played many digitals, so I base my opinions on experience, not marketing.
I spend years looking for a new piano and tried A LOT of different instruments. I never said the digital action is "magic", just that they sometimes make better practice tools than an upright. I find some of the posts here almost fanatically proposing uprights for all needs and I don't want anyone to fall for that trap either, but select their instrument based on their individual needs.
Who would choose a digital over an upright for action? Doesn't make a lick of sense.
The best digitals have a grand like action while uprights don't, that's why. Have you tried any?
Really??? Do you believe every bit of marketing you read ?I have one of those digitals that supposed to have a "grand like action" I can say no it does not! I have tried many digitals that supposed to have this magic action.No they do not! Perhaps the silent mode on your upright is affecting the action.
I have played many other uprights, not just my own and so far all of them have had limitations in their action. Also I have played many digitals, so I base my opinions on experience, not marketing.
I spend years looking for a new piano and tried A LOT of different instruments. I never said the digital action is "magic", just that they sometimes make better practice tools than an upright. I find some of the posts here almost fanatically proposing uprights for all needs and I don't want anyone to fall for that trap either, but select their instrument based on their individual needs.
Well I do not know what planet you live on ? The fact is Outdo you should be aware that people no longer buy NEW accoustic pianos. Now days the old grand is replacing the NEW accoustic upright piano! Apart from this NEW digitals with its.so called "many funtions"which is nonsense, is also replacing the accoustic upright.This is all affecting the sale of NEW pianos.When the day dawns with the demise of accoustic pianos.Let us not wonder at the fact that only the WEALTHLY will own ACCOUSTIC pianos. This passion to own a grand piano becomes absurd on this forum. People write in about wanting to know if they should buy a grand with cracked soundboard or even worse a broken bridge(or crown) ??? Do we all have to imagine that we are Princes or Princess and should therefore own a grand(even one with a broken soundboard ) ???Or pretend that we are mini-concert pianists ???Therefore throw away the accoustic upright piano.You have got it wrong ! It is the upright accoustic piano that that is being "mangled" on this thread !!! This happens again and again and it is MINDLESS !!!
Less sex appeal? Its that kind of half way point thats not that appealing but gets the job done. No headphones / sound benefit or able to use high end VSTs to sound like its a CFX, no recording, just 'average' sound and better than average touch. I think I would also choose an avant grand over an upright, unless it was one of those nice ones like the YUS series, but if I spent that much, it begs the question why not a grand?
Less sex appeal? Its that kind of half way point thats not that appealing but gets the job done. No headphones / sound benefit or able to use high end VSTs to sound like its a CFX, no recording, just 'average' sound and better than average touch. I think I would also choose an avant grand over an upright, unless it was one of those nice ones like the YUS series, but if I spent that much, it begs the question why not a grand?
Yes sure ,but even a U1,or a Kawai k300 will give you the satisfaction of feeling what it's like playing a real instrument ,the vibrations of strings instead of a "glorified box"with speakers in it.A box that makes use "second hand sound".If you want to listen to a recording of a CFX switch on the radio or listen to a CD. As for" SEXY,perhaps different forum will do? I cannot advise.I am a married women !
Digital pianos are useful if you live in an apartment.If it's just a matter of choosing between a digital and an accoustic upright piano the choice is for real sound not second hand sound or synthetic sound.
Digital pianos are useful if you live in an apartment.If it's just a matter of choosing between a digital and an accoustic upright piano the choice is for real sound not second hand sound or synthetic sound.
I must agree with Lady Bird. I too, would always choose an upright to a digital piano. Even on the best digital pianos I have tried, the feel, action, feedback and sound are superior on a good upright. Just my personal experience. I do understand however, when circumstances dictate where a digital piano must be used.
High end digitals and full performance keyboards are used by professional musicians for gigs, concerts, and large church gatherings. Digital pianos and keyboards are portable. That’s a huge advantage for gigging musicians. It’s a huge advantage for me. I can easily with one hand move my keyboard next to my C3 for duets. Although the action is different from an acoustic, it’s portability, midi output, adjustable brightness, adjustable key weight (although that is kinda lame) makes it a viable alternative. I’m old but putting my 26 lb Casio and lightweight but strong stand in the truck or SUV is significantly sexier than trying to move a 400 lbs gigantic upright! What’s sexy depends on the time and function for the pianists.
The sexiest part of a piano is the sweet sounds they can make.
I believe the old idiom "it's the inside that counts" is most applicable here. I am a fan of both digital and acoustic to use in different situations. They aren't mutually exclusive.
I have played many other uprights, not just my own and so far all of them have had limitations in their action. Also I have played many digitals, so I base my opinions on experience, not marketing.
I spend years looking for a new piano and tried A LOT of different instruments. I never said the digital action is "magic", just that they sometimes make better practice tools than an upright. I find some of the posts here almost fanatically proposing uprights for all needs and I don't want anyone to fall for that trap either, but select their instrument based on their individual needs.
Well I do not know what planet you live on ? The fact is Outdo you should be aware that people no longer buy NEW accoustic pianos. Now days the old grand is replacing the NEW accoustic upright piano! Apart from this NEW digitals with its.so called "many funtions"which is nonsense, is also replacing the accoustic upright.This is all affecting the sale of NEW pianos.When the day dawns with the demise of accoustic pianos.Let us not wonder at the fact that only the WEALTHLY will own ACCOUSTIC pianos. This passion to own a grand piano becomes absurd on this forum. People write in about wanting to know if they should buy a grand with cracked soundboard or even worse a broken bridge(or crown) ??? Do we all have to imagine that we are Princes or Princess and should therefore own a grand(even one with a broken soundboard ) ???Or pretend that we are mini-concert pianists ???Therefore throw away the accoustic upright piano.You have got it wrong ! It is the upright accoustic piano that that is being "mangled" on this thread !!! This happens again and again and it is MINDLESS !!!
I live on planet Europe and I have not witnessed such mindlessness...I have also been on this forum for years and have not seen many absurd posts about wanting to own a grand no matter what. In fact you should maybe cool down a bit, because you are borderline insulting to people who come here for help in buying a piano...
Just to thrown in my tuppenceworth. I recently acquired a digital piano (Kawai CA78) and I also have a nice acoustic upright. My upright is currently badly in need of tuning and I have been patiently awaiting the piano tuner, who is finally coming next week, and it also currently has some issues with its action that I'm hoping he can resolve. At this time therefore I am enjoying the CA78 rather more, but I am very very lucky to have the choice. I have promised to write a review of the CA78 in particular comparing it to my upright, and I plan to do so, but in fairness to the acoustic piano I want to wait until I've played it for a couple of weeks following its health check.
High end digitals and full performance keyboards are used by professional musicians for gigs, concerts, and large church gatherings. Digital pianos and keyboards are portable. That’s a huge advantage for gigging musicians. It’s a huge advantage for me. I can easily with one hand move my keyboard next to my C3 for duets. Although the action is different from an acoustic, it’s portability, midi output, adjustable brightness, adjustable key weight (although that is kinda lame) makes it a viable alternative. I’m old but putting my 26 lb Casio and lightweight but strong stand in the truck or SUV is significantly sexier than trying to move a 400 lbs gigantic upright! What’s sexy depends on the time and function for the pianists.
There are times when a movable digital is useful. We still have an 80's Roland keyboard somewhere .There are times my husband hauls it out and makes use of it for an imput for Sibelius.We also have a digital Roland piano which looks like a traditional piano which you cannot move easily.There are times when I play this piano as well and even enjoy playing it. Its sound even though very nice as digitals go is as all digitals are very standardized. This aspect of tone standardization is what is common for all digital pianos weither they make use of sound samples or like the Roland use synthesized sound.
outo- isn’t it great that the acoustic piano market has enough options on size, sound, dynamics, color, and aesthetics that we can all find something we love? From sleek modern designs to art case beauty. If I was rich enough I’d have a fleet of fabulous pianos, including some stellar uprights, sitting in a stand alone gigantic studio. I could pick a piano to match my mood. Which reminds me, my odds might improve a teeny tiny bit if I actually start buying lottery tickets. ðŸ˜
I thought you despised the look of upright pianos ?
outo- isn’t it great that the acoustic piano market has enough options on size, sound, dynamics, color, and aesthetics that we can all find something we love? From sleek modern designs to art case beauty. If I was rich enough I’d have a fleet of fabulous pianos, including some stellar uprights, sitting in a stand alone gigantic studio. I could pick a piano to match my mood. Which reminds me, my odds might improve a teeny tiny bit if I actually start buying lottery tickets. ðŸ˜
I thought you despised the look of upright pianos ?
Well, I don't know about j&j, but personally, I dislike the look of upright pianos. They all look to me like they belong in a saloon in the Old West, maybe with a piano roll running though it. (No disrespect to owners of uprights intended!)
Frankly, I don't know why here in the 21st century, they can't design a piano that is a bit sleeker and trimmer.... (oh wait! they have! it's called a "digital!" )
Well, I don't know about j&j, but personally, I dislike the look of upright pianos. They all look to me like they belong in a saloon in the Old West, maybe with a piano roll running though it.
Well, I don't know about j&j, but personally, I dislike the look of upright pianos. They all look to me like they belong in a saloon in the Old West, maybe with a piano roll running though it.
Typically, in the US at least, more upright pianos are sold annually than grands. I had difficulty finding recent statistics on this, but it does seem to be correct. Even the PianoBuyerOnline didn't differentiate between the number of uprights sold vs. grands sold in the US, that I could find, other than to say that about 30,000 new acoustic pianos are sold in the US annually. It may be there, but I couldn't find it.
Looking at some older data, uprights do indeed outsell grands. The reason is likely cost and space in the home or dwelling, but I'm just speculating.
As far as why people may or may NOT favor an upright piano is an individual choice. I don't think we should be critical of or denigrate anyone for choosing or owning an upright piano. I own an upright piano and I love it. I also own a grand piano and I love it. I also own a digital piano and I love it. Can't we love more than one type of piano?
Outdo, If I appeared insulting I am sorry.As Rickster said we still have many choices when it comes to pianos.Digital pianos have a great deal to give.The response(action)and the tone is often remarkable.If it was not so we would never have bought one. And yes grand pianos are wonderful.I had one for many years. Upright pianos have there place too and a reasonably good one provides students both early grade and advanced with the true elements to make music. I agree certain virtuosic pieces are hard on uprights,saying this I have seen on this forum a youtube video of someone playing a piano on a street, on a Rameau upright piano .She was playing La Campanella by Liszt.The rather small and ordinary upright and the well known pianist were magnificent. Could a digital have done well?Yes a good one probability would have served very well. So Enjoy your wonderful Bluthner and your other pianos.Peace ! I am sure your country is lovely.It one of those places that I would love to visit ,one day perhaps.
Something I would not do is mention someone's name and then tell them and everyone else how much you dislike the look of thier piano? All of a sudden out of nowhere? What prompted such a post. I was not even very lively on this thread before this!!!
Imo any playable piano is better than no piano. And personally looks are not important when it comes to pianos. The only thing I really could not tolerate is a white one
Something I would not do is mention someone's name and then tell them and everyone else how much you dislike the look of thier piano? All of a sudden out of nowhere? What prompted such a post. I was not even very lively on this thread before this!!!
If you are referring to my post above, re-read what I wrote - I was not talking about anyone's piano. I was talking about abstract, generic upright piano. A piano of anyone, everyone, and no one. I mentioned j&j only because your post was asking him "I thought you despised the look of upright pianos ?", and I just commented that I don't know j&j's opinion about uprights, but that my own opinion about uprights is as follows.... <blah blah blah> I was not commenting on his upright. I was just commenting that in general, upright pianos look like they belong in a saloon in the Old West. I actually have never seen j&j's piano that I know of so I couldn't and wouldn't comment on his specific piano.
Something I would not do is mention someone's name and then tell them and everyone else how much you dislike the look of thier piano? All of a sudden out of nowhere? What prompted such a post. I was not even very lively on this thread before this!!!
If you are referring to my post above, re-read what I wrote - I was not talking about anyone's piano. I was talking about abstract, generic upright piano. A piano of anyone, everyone, and no one. I mentioned j&j only because your post was asking him "I thought you despised the look of upright pianos ?", and I just commented that I don't know j&j's opinion about uprights, but that my own opinion about uprights is as follows.... <blah blah blah> I was not commenting on his upright. I was just commenting that in general, upright pianos look like they belong in a saloon in the Old West. I actually have never seen j&j's piano that I know of so I couldn't and wouldn't comment on his specific piano.
No not you Tyrone ,J&J mentioned my name when he said he disliked tall upright pianos.,It is fine maybe it was done for someone else's benefit,perhaps it's something to do with my Sauter thread. We are getting all our pianos mixed up !
I feel like enhanced action with subdued sound dynamics kind of takes away 50% of the point of having the action in the first place. If the focus is faster and more fluid playing, I can definitely understand. However, I feel like sound dynamics made possible by grand action is the most important thing I.e. A very fast heavy run coming to an immediate yet smooth and light halt.
All I've learned in my short time of learning piano is that making quality sound, manipulating its dynamics, and then expressing the sound, mood, and tone you'd like to make is very hard. I'm rather desperate for a quality acoustic (I'll still be bad but at least it will help a tad 😂)
I feel like enhanced action with subdued sound dynamics kind of takes away 50% of the point of having the action in the first place. If the focus is faster and more fluid playing, I can definitely understand. However, I feel like sound dynamics made possible by grand action is the most important thing I.e. A very fast heavy run coming to an immediate yet smooth and light halt.
All I've learned in my short time of learning piano is that making quality sound, manipulating its dynamics, and then expressing the sound, mood, and tone you'd like to make is very hard. I'm rather desperate for a quality acoustic (I'll still be bad but at least it will help a tad 😂)
I feel similarly... Maybe I should clarify: When I say I find it better to play a grand than uprights, it does not necessarily mean I cannot physically move the keys, but I am not pleased with the sound I can produce with the same effort I can with a grand (or not at all). I refer to voicing and dynamics and what I can achieve in tone quality, pedalling included. A digital is also a poor substitue for an acoustic when it comes to sound quality. However if the action is similar, I can use it for learning and memorizing the pieces and then when I get to an acoustic I use my ears to do some adjusting. Which has to be done anyway with different pianos and different rooms.
When I listen to a pro play on a street piano, no matter the virtuosity, I do not feel it is equal to them performing on a concert grand. Similarly, I want my playing at home to sound the best it can for my enjoyment
In general my playing is very reflective (for lack of a better word): While I play I cannot help analyzing the sounds produced and reacting to them whether it is good or bad. I have noticed that other people can focus more on what they do and not worry so much about the sounds already out of control I too often get distracted by the tone produced. Not so much on a digital, because they are much less responsive to subtle changes.
Where is that Bechstein Bus ? If could take it tonight out of this thread I would. Off to Spaichingen in Germany to get my Ambiant 7ft grand. The one that looks like it comes out of a Batman movie ! What-you think I am too old to watch Batman ?
LadyBird- I don’t hate the look of uprights. I learned piano on uprights and my first piano was a big Baldwin upright. The look of the big studio uprights that sound the best because of the longer strings are a bit too boxy for my aesthetic. I also think the huge old uprights with the ornate furniture and legs are quite gorgeous. There’s also one advantage to uprights that I just can’t do on a grand. We had a beautiful Wittenauer metronome and a bust of Chopin on the top of my Mom’s piano. On my Baldwin, I had a beautiful picture frame and a antique mantle clock. Because I close down my grand when I’m not playing it, there’s really no place for a fancy metronome, picture frames, vase of fake flowers ( we never put anything liquid near a piano) or a bust of Chopin. I definitely prefer the look of grands but I definitely appreciate a great upright.
Thank you Ian,Will you drive the bus ? Yes we will go to see the Bluthner factory first !
Of course I will, but first we must get a bigger bus. I'm sure TwoCats will want to come along to visit her "Bo" piano maker Bösendorfer in Austria.
Why do all good piano brands not start with a "B"
Ian
Well of course Two cats can come.But no Ian I am not changing buses, there really is something about that Bechstein Bus...............! Yes I agree why do not all good pianos begin with S , mind you B is a pretty good letter too.,I mean just look at that BUS !!!
LadyBird- I don’t hate the look of uprights. I learned piano on uprights and my first piano was a big Baldwin upright. The look of the big studio uprights that sound the best because of the longer strings are a bit too boxy for my aesthetic. I also think the huge old uprights with the ornate furniture and legs are quite gorgeous. There’s also one advantage to uprights that I just can’t do on a grand. We had a beautiful Wittenauer metronome and a bust of Chopin on the top of my Mom’s piano. On my Baldwin, I had a beautiful picture frame and a antique mantle clock. Because I close down my grand when I’m not playing it, there’s really no place for a fancy metronome, picture frames, vase of fake flowers ( we never put anything liquid near a piano) or a bust of Chopin. I definitely prefer the look of grands but I definitely appreciate a great upright.
Sounds like you had a good musical bakground.What duets do you play with your digital?
Thank you Ian,Will you drive the bus ? Yes we will go to see the Bluthner factory first !
Of course I will, but first we must get a bigger bus. I'm sure TwoCats will want to come along to visit her "Bo" piano maker Bösendorfer in Austria.
Why do all good piano brands not start with a "B"
Ian
Well of course Two cats can come.But no Ian I am not changing buses, there really is something about that Bechstein Bus...............! Yes I agree why do not all good pianos begin with S , mind you B is a pretty good letter too.,I mean just look at that BUS !!!
I hate to say this, but this is a family forum and you guys are taking B S! Shame!
Johnstaf, That made my day, Bechstein und Sauter! I wonder what Ulrich Sauter would say ? Do not worry Ian, we can make it BBB und Sauter. Estonia? Seems a bit far by bus ?
I definitely respect that. I feel like some qualities are an extension of your instructors. Mine, since day 1, has been rather compulsive about sound, dynamics, evenness, and consistent tempo. It's my main focus when learning a piece. It drives me bonkers when a scale has an inconsistent hop or I held a key too long breaking smooth legato. I learn songs a bit slow because of this and sometimes end up practicing a few lines the entire session until I get the sound right.
I feel like enhanced action with subdued sound dynamics kind of takes away 50% of the point of having the action in the first place. If the focus is faster and more fluid playing, I can definitely understand. However, I feel like sound dynamics made possible by grand action is the most important thing I.e. A very fast heavy run coming to an immediate yet smooth and light halt.
All I've learned in my short time of learning piano is that making quality sound, manipulating its dynamics, and then expressing the sound, mood, and tone you'd like to make is very hard. I'm rather desperate for a quality acoustic (I'll still be bad but at least it will help a tad 😂)
Well you are making progress, if you have been learning for so short a time ! The above almost sounds like it comes out of a text book .
More so the mouth of my super polish instructor but you're too kind! Every week I come in thinking I have things sounding right and he promptly responds "ehhh, that sounded...... ok". He's very uptight about tonality and evenness, it's kind of all I hear now when I play. He also passes me an ungodly amount of work each week haha. I do think I am getting a little better every week however. Maybe there is a method to his madness.
LadyBird- my friend from church has a book of Christmas carols written as duets. And on the very rare occasion when my sister or piano playing friends come over we play old ballads on both pianos. It’s not the advanced classical duets you might play, but it’s good for keeping the beat.
LadyBird- my friend from church has a book of Christmas carols written as duets. And on the very rare occasion when my sister or piano playing friends come over we play old ballads on both pianos. It’s not the advanced classical duets you might play, but it’s good for keeping the beat.
It sounds good ! I sometimes try my hand at lighter things but am probably not as good as you ! Always love some of those Simon and Garfunkel songs like The Sound of Silence.
Ok, I’m probably going to get thoroughly blasted off the Forum for saying this but there is a chunk of piano buyers that accept the “shortcomings†of baby grands and love them even though their piano techs remind them that they’d be better off with a quality upright. I remember when going to the Yamaha website years ago that the GB1, 5 feet in length, was their most popular grand. It might still be. Sorry LadyBird, but I think small grands look decidedly better than a big upright. It sure won’t sound anywhere near as good as your Sauter or a YUS5, but piano makers sell quite a few baby grands. **My apologizes but a large squarish wooden box against the wall with a keyboard and two legs sticking out just isn’t as pretty or sexy as the curves of a grand, even if it is too short. Apparently there’s a market. I’ve descended from my soapbox ðŸ˜
I must say I found the above really quite unexpected !!! Mentioning me by name too. But then so many untrue,nasty and absurd things were said about uprights in this thread ??? Beemer and I both own quite expensive German upright pianos ,so if we decided to take up too much time joking ,I am sorry but we are only human !!!
Could someone shed light on this , specifically , why people get say an nv10 /yamaha n1x type of piano over a acoustic upright (I am not including people who cannot get acoustic because of volume /maintenance issues)?
Good upright pianos have increased in price a lot. Digitals became much better and more affordable.
For me good uprights are in the 10000-20000 € range now, while really good digitals are still below 10000 €. This is what you get at below 8000 € as digital piano:
This is what you get at below 4500 €:
So the action isn't actually an issue anymore, except in the lowest price range.
You now have to decide, if you want to add roughly 10 grand to that, to get the remainder of the acoustic piano with a proper construction and a good sound (not just some noise). And then you still have to deal with maintenance and neighbors.
After moving up from an upright (equivalent to a good studio) to a parlor grand, I must say that playing an upright is like kissing one's sister. The overall onrush of sound from a grand is just ummm.
After moving up from an upright (equivalent to a good studio) to a parlor grand, I must say that playing an upright is like kissing one's sister. The overall onrush of sound from a grand is just ummm.
It is starting all over again.,Please it has been 7 pages ??? Now it's about kissing your sister. Please stop !!! The dumb comments will start all over again !
LadyBird- why not start another thread, “Why I love my upright!â€. I seriously need a distraction after “kissing one’s sisterâ€. And my sister is pretty. 😬
I think I will pass on that one .There is too much resonance from this thread going on in my mind for me for me to be rational. I would need to take that Bechstein bus for a fantasy ride to Spaichingen! Then we know I would get into trouble !
After moving up from an upright (equivalent to a good studio) to a parlor grand, I must say that playing an upright is like kissing one's sister. The overall onrush of sound from a grand is just ummm.
It is starting all over again.,Please it has been 7 pages ??? Now it's about kissing your sister. Please stop !!! The dumb comments will start all over again !
Of course you could just refrain from posting them...
After moving up from an upright (equivalent to a good studio) to a parlor grand, I must say that playing an upright is like kissing one's sister. The overall onrush of sound from a grand is just ummm.
Originally Posted by j&j
LadyBird- why not start another thread, “Why I love my upright!â€. I seriously need a distraction after “kissing one’s sisterâ€. And my sister is pretty. 😬
J&J There has been so many nasty things said against upright pianos I would not want to set myself up for a target by writing about MY upright ! Besides If I was sure I would be active and well for another 50 years and I had a big house and was wealthy I would have bought a grand piano.My reaction to some of these comments is for everyone who owns an upright accoustic piano. Yes I know OUTDO one needs a "thicker skin" to be on social media .As I have said before I am new to the .social media .,Piano World is the only thing I do.I do not want to be on something like Facebook. Before I start dissociating again and calling for the Bechstein Bus. (The theatre of the absurd)Here is something for all grand piano owners to enjoy - https://music.youtube.com/watch?v=Di2k06uNU1U&feature=share
It's simply not possible to own an acoustic piano when living in an apartment. There will most likely be someone in the building trying to sleep when I want to play. When we finally move to a single-family home, we will get an acoustic piano. Even then, we will keep the digital piano, so whoever it is that wants to play at night can do so without bothering anyone.
About grands and verticals. Some people don't have the room to put in a grand piano, so they resort to a vertical. Some verticals that cost as much as mid-level baby grand pianos sound very good. If I don't have the space, I wouldn't mind spending some hefty dollars on a very good upright piano.
In response to J&J regarding [quote] sure won’t sound anywhere near as good as your Sauter or a YUS5, but piano makers sell quite a few baby grands.
The Journal, Economist (2017) noted "Over the past decade, sales of upright pianos have dropped by 41.1%, while grand piano sales plummeted by 61.1%. That decline is accelerating. Last year, sales of grand pianos in America—a key market—fell by 15.8%, according to the National Association of Music Merchants. Sales of upright pianos fell by 5.7%." https://www.economist.com/prospero/2017/11/15/hybrid-models-are-changing-the-piano-market-too
When I bought a piano, my interest was not having a piece of furniture, for the price I paid for a new YUS 5, I could have bought a baby grand. I was looking for quality. The piano I bought is more piano that I will ever have the talent to play. Personally, I think there are nice looking uprights.
It's simply not possible to own an acoustic piano when living in an apartment. There will most likely be someone in the building trying to sleep when I want to play.
Digitals have not been around for that long. Before the advent of digitals everyone who played a piano had one in their apartment.
It's simply not possible to own an acoustic piano when living in an apartment. There will most likely be someone in the building trying to sleep when I want to play.
Digitals have not been around for that long. Before the advent of digitals everyone who played a piano had one in their apartment.
Exactly! And I still have. But for me digital option is also a must to practice enough because sometimes I do early mornings or late nights. If someone wants to sleep during the day, they need to move. I always follow the rules of the building and only play the acoustics when making noise is allowed. But sometimes I get a bit conscious about being heard when doing repetitive practice and prefer to do that silently.
When I was a teen we had a piano in an apartment as well. I cannot remember any complaints about that. I do remember a neighbour complaining when we were listening heavy metal with my friends at night. Also once when I was practicing the flute too late. That just gave me a good excuse to practice less
It's simply not possible to own an acoustic piano when living in an apartment. There will most likely be someone in the building trying to sleep when I want to play. When we finally move to a single-family home, we will get an acoustic piano. Even then, we will keep the digital piano, so whoever it is that wants to play at night can do so without bothering anyone.
About grands and verticals. Some people don't have the room to put in a grand piano, so they resort to a vertical. Some verticals that cost as much as mid-level baby grand pianos sound very good. If I don't have the space, I wouldn't mind spending some hefty dollars on a very good upright piano.
It is possible to own an acoustic piano when living in an apartment. All the acoustic piano needs is a silent system.
Could someone shed light on this , specifically , why people get say an nv10 /yamaha n1x type of piano over a acoustic upright (I am not including people who cannot get acoustic because of volume /maintenance issues)?
Good upright pianos have increased in price a lot. Digitals became much better and more affordable.
For me good uprights are in the 10000-20000 € range now, while really good digitals are still below 10000 €. This is what you get at below 8000 € as digital piano:
This is what you get at below 4500 €:
So the action isn't actually an issue anymore, except in the lowest price range.
You now have to decide, if you want to add roughly 10 grand to that, to get the remainder of the acoustic piano with a proper construction and a good sound (not just some noise). And then you still have to deal with maintenance and neighbors.
That pricing is a local US issue. It is no problem at all in Europe to acquire a young top quality upright for about 3-6k euro. Than I at least don't have to deal with low quality speakers (seriously nobody that buys a serious audio set would consider buying such bad speakers as you find in digital piano's) or a cumbersome headphone that separates you from your family. I say young because an accoustic instrument is not a disposable electronic device. New is more pricy but high quality still definitely does not start above 10k. More likely 7 to 8k before discount (discounts less steep than in US though). I can post examples from websites of official dealers if necessary but that might be considered advertising so perhaps Google a bit yourself. That money buys you something that, with proper maintenance (let's say 150 per year and an extra 3-500 each 5 years) will last you much much longer than any digital possibly could.
Neighbours is no issue in 90% of the cases as most of the current buildings are either very well isolated or completely separated from the neighbours. Of course city center apartments can be challenging but to me that sounds like self inflicted pain.
That pricing is a local US issue. It is no problem at all in Europe to acquire a young top quality upright for about 3-6k euro.
That's what I meant. New hand-made upright pianos increased in price a lot and used pianos moved up with them. 6k is still a lot of money to a lot of people.
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That money buys you something that, with proper maintenance (let's say 150 per year and an extra 3-500 each 5 years) will last you much much longer than any digital possibly could.
You don't have that with a digital. For the first 5 to 10 years, all maintenance is included in the purchase price (because there usually is none).
And if you're really tight on a budget you can play digital below the upkeep cost of an AP, purchase included. Doesn't matter if it lasts 100 years, in comparision it's essentially free.
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Neighbours is no issue in 90% of the cases as most of the current buildings are either very well isolated or completely separated from the neighbours. Of course city center apartments can be challenging but to me that sounds like self inflicted pain.
You obviously have a much more wealthy background, for some people living in "current" buildings is not an option and digitals provide them a way to enjoy a hobby.
Your story is not consistent. 1. You post pictures of an 11.5k EUR hybrid and another of a 4.5k EUR hybrid as if they were representive examples of digitals. They are not. The lower priced digitals do not have these good actions, they are frankly disappointing in touch and in sound. I don't think you honestly believe that the sound and touch of a 1k digital is in any way comparable to a 4k used upright.
2. You tell me that I have a wealthy background: nope, the situation I describe applies to almost all people not living in apartments. Only 15% of the Dutch (my background) population lives in apartments. The percentage of the people that actually are interested in playing the piano (even considering that) in apartments is lower than in the rest. Also, the 15% of people living in apartments include also apartments of very wealthy people that do put Fazioli's in. Of course 3k is a considerable sum of money but putting 1k in a bad disposable electronic is a far worse idea.
3. The depreciation of the digital stuff is a lot faster than of the already steep depreciation of accoustics. With regards to maintenance: after the 5-10 years the digital is disposed in most cases. If you buy a young upright the combination of maintenance and depreciation is lower than only the depreciation of the high end digital. Of course there are exceptions to the rule but most things I hear about digitals is that people add virtual piano's, high and speaker systems, expensive headphones etc. The purchase of the digital alone is just a starter...
In that case I would say that you have the perfect argument to consider a high-end digital our a silent system. I never implied to say that digitals do not have their time and place. It's just that I don't think that the upright vs digital discussion was doing justice to most uprights.
In that case I would say that you have the perfect argument to consider a high-end digital our a silent system. I never implied to say that digitals do not have their time and place. It's just that I don't think that the upright vs digital discussion was doing justice to most uprights.
OK, I understand what you are arguing now! Thanks.
There is no sense in buying more piano than you are capable of playing.
One should set a strict budget and stick to it.
If you think a more expensive piano is more difficult to play you are in my experience mistaken. Besides, any good pianist must train the ears for the subtle qualities of sound and it's hard to do that on an instrument without any.
There is no sense in buying more piano than you are capable of playing.
Jolly this does not make sense to me. If a novice bought a piano he/she was only capable of playing, it would suggest the person does not plan to grow. It it more cost effective at the initial expenditure to purchase something that you may grow into. That is not to say a beginner will get a grand and expect to grow into that. I speaking of a low level keyboard or piano that will not do the person justice in a couple of years. Then that person is looking at purchasing another instrument.
There is no sense in buying more piano than you are capable of playing.
Although I think I understand what you mean I would express things differently.
First, let's assume that cost is either irrelevant or only a minor consideration. If that's the case, then as long as one can appreciate the hopefully better/more beautiful tone of a high tier piano then I think it's worth buying even if one will only play easy pieces with average skill. Even if one cannot hear any difference it might make good sense to buy an expensive piano with the hope that eventually one could appreciate the better tone.
It's true that, even playing an elementary piece, a highly skilled player on a low tier piano will probably sound better than a very average player on a terrific piano. But I think it's also true that a very average player on a terrific piano will sound better than the same player on a lesser piano.
If a piano is very responsive, it can also be quite merciless in exposing things like unevenness in playing and poor pedalling. I often hear this said about Fazioli in particular, as they can feel hyper-responsive. Having said all that, auditory feedback on things such as articulation and phrasing is so clear on a good piano that the pianist would probably have to play dreadfully for such a piano to be anything but a huge advantage.
1. You post pictures of an 11.5k EUR hybrid and another of a 4.5k EUR hybrid as if they were representive examples of digitals. They are not. The lower priced digitals do not have these good actions, they are frankly disappointing in touch and in sound. I don't think you honestly believe that the sound and touch of a 1k digital is in any way comparable to a 4k used upright.
The digital sound itself is available in 1500 € slab pianos.
But the always brought up "4k used upright" is just as fictional as the "1k used hybrid" I can make up to counter it. So it's pointless to make up used instruments with certain features. Used gear might sometimes provide exceptional value and sometimes be a really raw deal, depending on time, location and the market. In my area (not Amsterdam) used uprights on the private market are in really bad shape and not worth any money. And local piano dealers closed down one after another, because nobody cares about pianos here.
So, instruments which have been made already and are not wanted anymore by their owners in certain locations are not the point of this discussion. For a proper comparison it's only relevant, much it costs to make a certain instrument to answer the question why uprights fell out of favor.
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3. The depreciation of the digital stuff is a lot faster than of the already steep depreciation of accoustics. With regards to maintenance: after the 5-10 years the digital is disposed in most cases. If you buy a young upright the combination of maintenance and depreciation is lower than only the depreciation of the high end digital.
Some people are just interested in playing piano and do not care about an risky investment, they have to insure extra. So the absolute running cost is the only thing that matters. The only reason most pianists care about "deprecation" is when you need to sell your instrument. Also it's still too early to talk about deprecation of those new hybrids, these instruments are simply not old enough make any reasonable assessments about their future value.
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Of course there are exceptions to the rule but most things I hear about digitals is that people add virtual piano's, high and speaker systems, expensive headphones etc. The purchase of the digital alone is just a starter...
Gear Acquisition Syndrom happens to wealthy grand lovers, too. You can visit their houses full of pianos, because just one wasn't not enough.
One thing that was said earlier was that it is possible to upgrade to a nice upright piano.This often happens if one has an ageing grand piano that one needs to sell or spend a great deal to repair. That of course was us.Since I do not spend as many hours as I used practicing, I chose a very nice 130 size piano. I could have chosen a nice Japanese grand piano for the same price but somehow did not want to feel encumbered by a grand when we want to downsize.If ever I ended up in an apartment I probably would want a silent mode added. The piano we chose is all we needed.I am just as able to play very advanced pieces on it as a grand.The tone is certainly much better than the grand we had.That is something extremely important because the musician listens very carefully while the artist looks very carefully at the world and life around him. A creative tone is a gift in music.
My problem with uprights is that I don't like looking at a vertical surface close to my face and that I don't like the sound coming directly at me. With my grand, I seldom use the music desk, so I can look out into the room and through the windows and the sound is dispersed in a way that I find more pleasing. I've tried some uprights that I thought sounded and played beautifully, but those two negatives caused me to get a grand.
Pianoloverus, I have only been playing for 5 years, though I was exposed to music as a child so I did not start from dead scratch. In the last year or so, I am hearing the difference in sounds between what I play on (YUS 5 and a Clavinova) and the schools piano. I have mine tuned every other month. I try not to look at my hands, and with the tone difference I think I played the wrong note. It takes a while to start to develop this type of hearing and I am really surprised I can now hear differences. I never regret buying a nice piano, I consider it my lifetime piano. I feel I am more motivated to practice on a nice instrument.
It's funny that this thread exists at this moment in time for me because right at this moment I had to make the forced decision to go back to a digital piano after 15+ years of having not touched any instrument remotely digital. I have to say the kind folks over at the digital forum were very nice and very helpful in providing thoughtful advice on going about my search. Due to my work situation I will be renting an apartment 40 miles away from my home to expand my business which means I will be away from my acoustic Kawai baby grand throughout most of the week. I have played on acoustic pianos throughout my entire life and as a serious adult learner in conservatories. However, during my younger adult life I had gone through 4 digital pianos which I always hoped would satisfy my needs but got little use and were often sold because they simply did not feel like the real instrument and I had a hard time adjusting to them. I was very skeptical (and maybe I still am) if a digital piano would serve my needs today. The thread is here: https://forum.pianoworld.com/ubbthre...piano-action-under-2500.html#Post2826304
What I have learned is that the digital piano has evolved quite a bit in the last 15 years.
That doesn't cost an arm and a leg to own a quality instrument.
That the software VST's have improved tremendously since I last used them and have improved playability to levels I never thought imaginable especially with the aid the modern computer. In particular I speak of the phenomenal Pianoteq program.
I do see the digital piano buyer a different breed of person in general compared to the acoustic piano buyer, in not a bad way at all, maybe they just have different tastes. The gear acquisition syndrome is no different to me than when I see buyers on these acoustic piano forums spending 10's of thousands of dollars more on a far too expensive piano that they possibly could have a difficult time affording under the belief that it would make them a better pianist over a less pricey piano. They are just as guilty of same fundamental problem of believing that you have to overpay to get quality. Sometimes it's true. Many times it's not.
I've often wondered if given the fact that digital piano piano sales outnumber acoustic sales 2 to 1 are piano manufacturers who sell both these instruments shooting themselves in the foot? Aren't they competing with themselves or is there market for both? I've thought maybe it's a good thing that people are buying digital pianos because it turns on more people towards the piano than there would be if these digital instruments did not exist. And maybe these digital piano buyers may eventually turn into acoustic piano buyers. ( Which I, as a lover of the piano would always hope for). Or is it that digital pianos are perceived by a growing number of the public as being as good or maybe even better than the original article that they push the acoustic grand towards obsolesence. I've actually read Yamaha digital piano advertisements criticizing the acoustic piano as being somewhat outdated and inferior to what digital pianos have to offer. Are they getting better than the real thing? Definitely not convinced from this poster.
That being said, I think both these instruments serve a purpose for the targeted buyer, it really all depends on the needs of the individual, their current situation, and ultimately their understanding of what's involved if it's in their plans to produce fine music (classical/jazz/modern) on the piano- or maybe not. Maybe it's just a hobby, a casual interest, or a desire to collect like people collect cars, guns, or audiophile equipment. It's not for me to judge.
But if anyone is interested I purchased a Kawai VPC-1, the Pianoteq and Ravenscroft software to go along with a mac mini and a pair of AKG K240 headphones as the solution to my dilemma and to live alongside my Kawai RX-2 so that I can continue to develop as an aspiring pianist. Maybe that's what it's all about- making music.
The problem with digital pianos is that you have to hear the sound through speakers... no? An acoustic piano is a direct shot from the strings and wood to your ears. Two different universes. In the broader context, it's our current culture that is obsessed with convenience of quality.
The problem with digital pianos is that you have to hear the sound through speakers... no? An acoustic piano is a direct shot from the strings and wood to your ears. Two different universes. In the broader context, it's our current culture that is obsessed with convenience of quality.
Yes, the speakers are one of the limiting factors. The sound board functions as a speaker, in effect. Yamaha has produced a TransAcoustic piano with specially built transducers that are attached to the soundboard so you hear the sound from the sound board when playing digitally.
I think I would like to have an acoustic upright in addition to my digital piano. I have no room for a grand. I could use the upright to play nearly finished pieces and the digital piano to quietly put in practice time to get the pieces ready for the upright. A professional pianist on YouTube does that. He practices on his Nord when playing the Steinway grand will wake the baby. In my opinion, digital pianos are very good but they can never produce exactly the same effect of a hammer hitting a string.
[quote=Steven Stone] I think I would like to have an acoustic upright in addition to my digital piano. I have no room for a grand. I could use the upright to play nearly finished pieces and the digital piano to quietly put in practice time to get the pieces ready for the upright. A professional pianist on YouTube does that. He practices on his Nord when playing the Steinway grand will wake the baby. In my opinion, digital pianos are very good but they can never produce exactly the same effect of a hammer hitting a string.
This is the thing I would personally hope for because it kills me to think that there is a possibility that the normal Joe Shmoe could not afford a quality affordable acoustic piano because the convenience of the digital piano had made these obsolete. I could see a situation in the not so near future where there are two classes to pianos: the digital piano and a very very expensive acoustic grand piano sold by only a very few dealers around the country. I think it is important for the piano industry to plan on how they would address this possible situation. We are in the age of digital, if you can't hook it up to an iphone or ipad what use is it or so some people may think? I can't think of any other acoustic instrument that has digital counterpart that is trying so hard to replace itself.
I am not of the belief that the digital piano is close to achieving an exact aural replica of the acoustic piano until you can have 2 trained pianists on stage playing in front of a knowledgeable audience with the pianos other than the fall boards hidden where neither the audience nor the players can tell which is the real piano and which is the facsimile right out of the box (ie without any special effects, enhanced amplification, acoustical treatments to the digital piano). Until then, I think the acoustical piano will survive, but I think it is important for the piano industry to keep pushing the idea that the goal should be towards upgrading eventually to the acoustical piano and emphasize the benefits of doing this for the serious student of the piano.
[quote=Steven Stone] I think I would like to have an acoustic upright in addition to my digital piano. I have no room for a grand. I could use the upright to play nearly finished pieces and the digital piano to quietly put in practice time to get the pieces ready for the upright. A professional pianist on YouTube does that. He practices on his Nord when playing the Steinway grand will wake the baby. In my opinion, digital pianos are very good but they can never produce exactly the same effect of a hammer hitting a string.
This is the thing I would personally hope for because it kills me to think that there is a possibility that the normal Joe Shmoe could not afford a quality affordable acoustic piano because the convenience of the digital piano had made these obsolete. I could see a situation in the not so near future where there are two classes to pianos: the digital piano and a very very expensive acoustic grand piano sold by only a very few dealers around the country. I think it is important for the piano industry to plan on how they would address this possible situation. We are in the age of digital, if you can't hook it up to an iphone or ipad what use is it or so some people may think? I can't think of any other acoustic instrument that has digital counterpart that is trying so hard to replace itself.
I am not of the belief that the digital piano is close to achieving an exact aural replica of the acoustic piano until you can have 2 trained pianists on stage playing in front of a knowledgeable audience with the pianos other than the fall boards hidden where neither the audience nor the players can tell which is the real piano and which is the facsimile right out of the box (ie without any special effects, enhanced amplification, acoustical treatments to the digital piano). Until then, I think the acoustical piano will survive, but I think it is important for the piano industry to keep pushing the idea that the goal should be towards upgrading eventually to the acoustical piano and emphasize the benefits of doing this for the serious student of the piano.
I agree. My hope is that the sale of digital pianos helps subsidize the construction of acoustic pianos, including acoustic uprights. That’s my hope, anyway.
I play the classical guitar. I was never that good at playing electric guitar and I never felt that engaged when playing through amplifiers, speakers, and effects pedals, so, I sold all that stuff and just play with my fingers and fingernails as my only tone control. Electric guitars probably won the war, in terms of being the most played instrument but acoustic guitars are still being made and sold and classical guitars, nylon strung, a niche within a niche, are still being sold, mainly by luthiers in small shops.
I love the videos by the Roberts Pianos that you can find on YouTube. He compares a Seiler upright to a Yamaha. The better quality of the Seiler is easily discernible, even on my little iPhone speaker.
I am not of the belief that the digital piano is close to achieving an exact aural replica of the acoustic piano until you can have 2 trained pianists on stage playing in front of a knowledgeable audience with the pianos other than the fall boards hidden where neither the audience nor the players can tell which is the real piano and which is the facsimile right out of the box (ie without any special effects, enhanced amplification, acoustical treatments to the digital piano).
I applaud both the double blind testing approach and the stipulation about the digital piano being unmodified but I think you have made the challenge sufficiently difficult that it would never be met. It might be fairer to say that the digital should be no more distinguishable from the acoustic than one acoustic is distinguishable from another. Which is probably still too difficult a test :-)
I am not of the belief that the digital piano is close to achieving an exact aural replica of the acoustic piano until you can have 2 trained pianists on stage playing in front of a knowledgeable audience with the pianos other than the fall boards hidden where neither the audience nor the players can tell which is the real piano and which is the facsimile right out of the box (ie without any special effects, enhanced amplification, acoustical treatments to the digital piano).
I applaud both the double blind testing approach and the stipulation about the digital piano being unmodified but I think you have made the challenge sufficiently difficult that it would never be met. It might be fairer to say that the digital should be no more distinguishable from the acoustic than one acoustic is distinguishable from another. Which is probably still too difficult a test :-)
Can you tell I did medical research in my past life? It's all about controlling as many variables as possible to make it as objective as possible. Gotta get those P values!
I am not of the belief that the digital piano is close to achieving an exact aural replica of the acoustic piano until you can have 2 trained pianists on stage playing in front of a knowledgeable audience with the pianos other than the fall boards hidden where neither the audience nor the players can tell which is the real piano and which is the facsimile right out of the box (ie without any special effects, enhanced amplification, acoustical treatments to the digital piano).
I applaud both the double blind testing approach and the stipulation about the digital piano being unmodified but I think you have made the challenge sufficiently difficult that it would never be met. It might be fairer to say that the digital should be no more distinguishable from the acoustic than one acoustic is distinguishable from another. Which is probably still too difficult a test :-)
Can you tell I did medical research in my past life? It's all about controlling as many variables as possible to make it as objective as possible. Gotta get those P values!
The difference is that nobody dies whether an acoustic or digital piano is played, or when some people can't tell the difference. I can hear differences between acoustics and digital pianos when listening to low fidelity recordings on YouTube. I don't see a need for testing. Both things exist in the world and both things are valid ways of making music.
When asked the question of digital or analog, I reply, both!
The difference is that nobody dies whether an acoustic or digital piano is played, or when some people can't tell the difference. I can hear differences between acoustics and digital pianos when listening to low fidelity recordings on YouTube. I don't see a need for testing. Both things exist in the world and both things are valid ways of making music.
When asked the question of digital or analog, I reply, both!
Stop being so reasonable. Don't you know this is the Internet?!
The difference is that nobody dies whether an acoustic or digital piano is played, or when some people can't tell the difference. I can hear differences between acoustics and digital pianos when listening to low fidelity recordings on YouTube. I don't see a need for testing. Both things exist in the world and both things are valid ways of making music.
When asked the question of digital or analog, I reply, both!
Sorry, but that is not what you are actually comparing in your example. You aren't here listening to the difference between acoustics and digitals you are listening to the difference between a reproduction of a digitals sound and the reproduction of a *recording* of an acoustics sound. That is a very different comparison and you are doing yourself no favours if that is how you make your judgements. There are reasons for doing proper tests and comparisons.
I initially looked for a top op the line digital piano, because i wanted to be able to play without disturbing the neighbours too much. I read alot of things on forums with people saying that upright's are a dying breed of piano's, that they are beeing replaced by digital piano's, because they are becoming so good these days. Long story short, i tried them all, and ended up buying a used U3.
In my opinion digital piano's are far from close to the real thing. The only digitals worth looking at in my opinion are the yamaha avantgrands, but i think their all ugly and/or way too expensive except for the NU1(X), but that one has a design flaw that makes it a no go for me. Without that design flaw i think the NU1X (or N1X if you don't think it's ugly) is actually a pretty nice option if you really need a digital, but to me it's still too forgiving. Even with the real action it still is alot easier to make your playing sound good on it compared to an acoustic, and i don't like that, because while having fun, i want to develop my ability to play an acoustic piano.
But to be honest, in my situation, with neighbours on both sides, if there was no design flaw, i would seriously consider a NU1x. Because, even tough it's not as nice as an acoustic piano, i would be able to play it more, and that's worth alot too.
I suppose this discussion could go on and on and on and on...
But there is nothing wrong with that. I like to hear what other individuals think and what their opinions are. Of course, some people think their opinion is the only one that matters, but that is a different discussion altogether.
That said, although I prefer an acoustic for my own personal use, the digital piano, which I also own, has its place, and it is a rather large place to be had. The digital never needs tuning, has all kinds of different sounds, combinations of sounds, tones, recording and accompaniment options. They are easy to transport and are great for gigging or playing at places where there is no acoustic piano available. They can be amplified through a keyboard amp or PA system, although an acoustic piano can be amplified with microphones as well. But the digital is much easier to amplify.
A lot of Churches are getting rid of their acoustic piano and going all digital. That is how I acquired my Yamaha C7 semi-concert grand piano; I purchased it from a large Church that went all digital pianos. Got a great deal on it too...
Also, most, if not all, major piano dealers/stores offer digital pianos as well as acoustic pianos. There is a strong market for the digital piano. However, there will always be a place for acoustic pianos, whether grand or upright, but that place is not as big as it once was. The digital piano market will only grow larger...
Again, this is just my .02, which is worth what it cost...
The difference is that nobody dies whether an acoustic or digital piano is played, or when some people can't tell the difference. I can hear differences between acoustics and digital pianos when listening to low fidelity recordings on YouTube. I don't see a need for testing. Both things exist in the world and both things are valid ways of making music.
When asked the question of digital or analog, I reply, both!
Sorry, but that is not what you are actually comparing in your example. You aren't here listening to the difference between acoustics and digitals you are listening to the difference between a reproduction of a digitals sound and the reproduction of a *recording* of an acoustics sound. That is a very different comparison and you are doing yourself no favours if that is how you make your judgements. There are reasons for doing proper tests and comparisons.
I'm with Jethro on this one :-)
Nevertheless, there are differences between digitals and acoustic that can be heard in those poor quality recordings, which is all that LarryK said. Until those differences are no longer apparent, there is no need for a more stringent comparison.
Also, most, if not all, major piano dealers/stores offer digital pianos as well as acoustic pianos. There is a strong market for the digital piano. However, there will always be a place for acoustic pianos, whether grand or upright, but that place is not as big as it once was. The digital piano market will only grow larger... Rick
Yes, of course, digital piano's will continue to improve reasonably fast, while acoustics might only improve a little bit, i think. So the gap will probably get smaller and smaller in the future. Right now, my opinion is digitals leave alot to be desired. But the ones like the kawai novus and the yamaha avantgrands with their real actions, are definitly a step in the right direction.
Sound wise the gap is hard to fill i think. For example, for a couple of years i just loved my Garritan CFX vst. And while it is pretty great for a vst, since i have an acoustic i like it alot less, and haven't touched it. On the other side, a digital upright (or keyboard or whatever) does have the advantage of having concert grand sound. Along with other advantages like volume control and headphone option, that's a nice advantage, no acoustic upright will ever sound like a concert grand.
I actually hope digitals will improve as fast as possible!
Digital pianos may be beneficial to the future sales of acoustic pianos. Perhaps, as in my case, many people start out with a keyboard that is inexpensive and played with headphones, that would not have started if they needed to buy a loud upright for thousands of dollars. I’ve made several upgrades from the $79 keyboard I started with, including a 44†upright that I kept for two months before taking it back (at my wife's request). I think a large number of people that have DP’s would rather have an acoustic (or both) and will purchase one if their circumstances change.
Digital pianos may be beneficial to the future sales of acoustic pianos. Perhaps, as in my case, many people start out with a keyboard that is inexpensive and played with headphones, that would not have started if they needed to buy a loud upright for thousands of dollars. I’ve made several upgrades from the $79 keyboard I started with, including a 44†upright that I kept for two months before taking it back (at my wife's request). I think a large number of people that have DP’s would rather have an acoustic (or both) and will purchase one if their circumstances change.
Good point, very true.
I would not have my upright if i didn't start to enjoy playing on a digital.
Digital pianos may be beneficial to the future sales of acoustic pianos. Perhaps, as in my case, many people start out with a keyboard that is inexpensive and played with headphones, that would not have started if they needed to buy a loud upright for thousands of dollars. I’ve made several upgrades from the $79 keyboard I started with, including a 44†upright that I kept for two months before taking it back (at my wife's request). I think a large number of people that have DP’s would rather have an acoustic (or both) and will purchase one if their circumstances change.
Good point, very true.
I would not have my upright if i didn't start to enjoy playing on a digital.
Of course, some digital owners graduate to acoustic pianos. But, as far as I know, sales of acoustics have been generally decreasing(although they may have increased since the last big recesssion) while sales of digitals and hybrids are increasing. IOW digitals have been around for many years but they have not increased sales of acoustics yet and probably will not do so in the future.
I initially looked for a top op the line digital piano, because i wanted to be able to play without disturbing the neighbours too much. I read alot of things on forums with people saying that upright's are a dying breed of piano's, that they are beeing replaced by digital piano's, because they are becoming so good these days. Long story short, i tried them all, and ended up buying a used U3.
Your experience is typical for a transitional period. You and @Rickster got a very good deal on old technology someone wanted to rid of (for reasons!). This happens with every transition from something outdated to something new. The outdated stuff floods the market, while someone convinces himself "they don't make them like that anymore", happily picking it up.
Though as with any transition, at some point the supply of cheap "used U3s" and "church C7s" is going to dry up. And then then playing field is even again, the well maintained vintage stuff becomes rare and expensive and the question about the viability of upright pianos have to be asked again.
The problem with this thread is it’s limited to Piano World Forum folks. The question should be rewritten to “Why do so many Piano World members not favor uprights?†Every time I’ve ever walked into a piano store, there’s quite a selection of new and used uprights.
IF a person has enough money and space and is knowledgeable about pianos they will almost always prefer a high quality larger grand to a high quality upright. The reasons are so obvious it's amazing that this thread has gone on for so long. Many people don't meet all three requirements.
In Tom Lee downtown, there are a huge number of grands. Steinways, Yamaha,Boston,Schimmel, Sauter. One day they had this grand, sale,big ribbons around the grand pianos ?No one interested when we were there ?Not in uprights either ?
The problem with this thread is it’s limited to Piano World Forum folks. The question should be rewritten to “Why do so many Piano World members not favor uprights?†Every time I’ve ever walked into a piano store, there’s quite a selection of new and used uprights.
I think you are incorrect, many members who own and love thier upright are just not active.
Pianoloverus, I have been taking for 5 years (age 58), but I played instruments as a child for 10 years. I can tell a difference between the school pianos (low grade) and my YUS 5. The past year now I am noticing tone differences. I play and think I hit a wrong key when it is actually out of tune, as my piano is tuned every other month. I am noticing differences in touch as I progress. The beginner may not notice differences, but through the progression of learning they will. Never regret getting more of a piano than I can play. There is always hope.
Pianoloverus, I have been taking for 5 years (age 58), but I played instruments as a child for 10 years. I can tell a difference between the school pianos (low grade) and my YUS 5. The past year now I am noticing tone differences. I play and think I hit a wrong key when it is actually out of tune, as my piano is tuned every other month. I am noticing differences in touch as I progress. The beginner may not notice differences, but through the progression of learning they will. Never regret getting more of a piano than I can play. There is always hope.
Wow, what an awesome sounding piano! I love the big music desk that can be pulled closer and the slow closing fall board. Slow motion mechanisms on toilet seats and piano fall boards should be required by law, haha.
It’s terrific that Yamaha has put a sostenuto pedal and a practice pedal on this model.
Is it worth it to get the TransAcoustic version of the YUS5? I’m definitely putting this piano on my list for when I upgrade from a DP. I have never regretted buying fine classical guitars. Fine instruments make the learning process much more fun, and offer more expressive sound possibilities than cheaply made instruments.
I think you are incorrect, many members who own and love thier upright are just not active.
Perhaps I am. Or maybe this 9 page thread is just a call out to upright owners on PW to post how they love their upright. Just like the post about baby grands. My point really was acoustic uprights and baby grands are still stocked and prepped at piano stores. These pianos sell well and keep the light on in piano stores. For the most part, uprights are more affordable and are far easier to find room for. If I was in piano sales, I’d be hovering around the uprights and small grands because they are much easier to sell. Oh and maybe the DPs. I could turn on the cool sounds of harpsichord or maybe Piano Pad to attract the youngsters.
Pianoloverus, I have been taking for 5 years (age 58), but I played instruments as a child for 10 years. I can tell a difference between the school pianos (low grade) and my YUS 5. The past year now I am noticing tone differences. I play and think I hit a wrong key when it is actually out of tune, as my piano is tuned every other month. I am noticing differences in touch as I progress. The beginner may not notice differences, but through the progression of learning they will. Never regret getting more of a piano than I can play. There is always hope.
Wow, what an awesome sounding piano! I love the big music desk that can be pulled closer and the slow closing fall board. Slow motion mechanisms on toilet seats and piano fall boards should be required by law, haha.
It’s terrific that Yamaha has put a sostenuto pedal and a practice pedal on this model.
Is it worth it to get the TransAcoustic version of the YUS5? I’m definitely putting this piano on my list for when I upgrade from a DP. I have never regretted buying fine classical guitars. Fine instruments make the learning process much more fun, and offer more expressive sound possibilities than cheaply made instruments.
Toilet seats?!!!! ,so the rudeness towards owners of good upright pianos continues ?That piano is amazing in tone and response but of course It is expensive but as DSFRN explained she would rather have that wonderful instrument than some old grand.If it's just sour grapes perhaps you should express yourself at least in a more decent sensitive manner !!!
Pianoloverus, I have been taking for 5 years (age 58), but I played instruments as a child for 10 years. I can tell a difference between the school pianos (low grade) and my YUS 5. The past year now I am noticing tone differences. I play and think I hit a wrong key when it is actually out of tune, as my piano is tuned every other month. I am noticing differences in touch as I progress. The beginner may not notice differences, but through the progression of learning they will. Never regret getting more of a piano than I can play. There is always hope.
Wow, what an awesome sounding piano! I love the big music desk that can be pulled closer and the slow closing fall board. Slow motion mechanisms on toilet seats and piano fall boards should be required by law, haha.
It’s terrific that Yamaha has put a sostenuto pedal and a practice pedal on this model.
Is it worth it to get the TransAcoustic version of the YUS5? I’m definitely putting this piano on my list for when I upgrade from a DP. I have never regretted buying fine classical guitars. Fine instruments make the learning process much more fun, and offer more expressive sound possibilities than cheaply made instruments.
Toilet seats?!!!! ,so the rudeness towards owners of good upright pianos continues ?That piano is amazing in tone and response but of course It is expensive but as DSFRN explained she would rather have that wonderful instrument than some old grand.If it's just sour grapes perhaps you should express yourself at least in a more decent sensitive manner !!!
Oh, no, no, no, that was a joke! I am not expressing any rudeness towards owners of upright pianos, I hope to be one in the future!
I’m pretty much sold on the features of the TA2, which is the YUS5 with the TransAcoustic feature.
The fact is apart from myself there are a quite a few owners of experience uprights on this thread.We decided to buy an expensive Upright instead of a new or newer used grand .The decision was ours to make.If people develope some kind of complex or just suffer from continuous SOUR GRAPES then that is your problem.
It was not just me who said that a tall upright sounds better than many baby grands.There have been others.It depends on the quality of the baby grand and the quality of a 130 size upright.
LarryK, I am sorry if I misunderstood you ,it was an insensitive comment you made however.If I owned a YUS5 ,(which I do not)I would be really upset with you.But perhaps you meant no harm.
LarryK, I am sorry if I misunderstood you ,it was an insensitive comment you made however.If I owned a YUS5 ,(which I do not)I would be really upset with you.But perhaps you meant no harm.
Believe me, I meant no harm. I apologize for coming off as insensitive.
How many manufacturers of pianos put a soft close mechanism in the fall board? This is the first time I’ve ever seen one. I hope I can get to a point where I can buy the TransAcoustic YUS5, I think it would be great. David Pogue, the tech writer, reviews the TransAcoustic mechanism in a U1, along with Frederic Chiu, the concert pianist, in this video:
I absolutely do not have room for a grand piano and will never have room for a grand piano because I live in New York City. My teacher has a beautiful old Steinway but her apartment is much bigger than mine. I hope I can convince my wife to let me buy an upright at some point in the future.
That transAcousting U1 sounds great .These are ideal for apartments.I had bought a new U1 (regular)before upgrading .It was a lovely piano and had a very nice tone and response. There are just so many choices out there.Best wishes.
The reality is digital pianos make you sound better than you are. Pianissimo is much easy to achieve on a digital. Which is great but it actually takes some of the creative fun out of learning to perform a piece as dealing with the relative vagaries of an acoustic instrument can be very stimulating, especially if you record audio of your playing and listen back for inspiration that actually COME from the aforementioned vagaries.
I have to admit being most keen on uprights, but in my current circumstances a DP may be more practical. DPs do have their compensations compared to an ordinary upright though in the form of E piano and strings voices, both being fun for both classical and non-classical (but that seems to be rarely mentioned here on PW), and of course practicing with earphones so that nobody can hear the mistakes / painful progress.
LarryK, I am sorry if I misunderstood you ,it was an insensitive comment you made however.If I owned a YUS5 ,(which I do not)I would be really upset with you.But perhaps you meant no harm.
There was nothing insensitive about it... slow closing mechanism is handy for uprights, grands and toilet seats. I only have it for the first. Reading your posts makes me wonder whether it is you who have some kind of a complex...
LarryK, I am sorry if I misunderstood you ,it was an insensitive comment you made however.If I owned a YUS5 ,(which I do not)I would be really upset with you.But perhaps you meant no harm.
There was nothing insensitive about it... slow closing mechanism is handy for uprights, grands and toilet seats. I only have it for the first. Reading your posts makes me wonder whether it is you who have some kind of a complex...
The fact that a previous poster is very proud of her YUS5 upright with a large music desk was referred to when speaking of a toilet seat without meaning her direct harm was called by me as insensitive. We have since moved past that .I do not know what your problem is OUTO perhaps cultural misunderstanding I do not know.You REALLY seem to believe that a person needs a thicker skin to be on the social media as you once told a well liked poster who left this forum for a while.Just accept that you and I will never truly understand each other !!!
LarryK, I am sorry if I misunderstood you ,it was an insensitive comment you made however.If I owned a YUS5 ,(which I do not)I would be really upset with you.But perhaps you meant no harm.
There was nothing insensitive about it... slow closing mechanism is handy for uprights, grands and toilet seats. I only have it for the first. Reading your posts makes me wonder whether it is you who have some kind of a complex...
The fact that a previous poster is very proud of her YUS5 upright with a large music desk was referred to when speaking of a toilet seat without meaning her direct harm was called by me as insensitive. We have since moved past that .I do not know what your problem is OUTO perhaps cultural misunderstanding I do not know.You REALLY seem to believe that a person needs a thicker skin to be on the social media as you once told a well liked poster who left this forum for a while.Just accept that you and I will never truly understand each other !!!
I guess my problem is that while I do think people should have a thicker skin if one engages in debates, I do not think attacking someone for a thorougly positive post and saying people who disagree with you have ulterior motives or complexis is not good discussion culture. Even after the poster made an (imo unnecessary) apology you could not let it go? No-one expects you to talk about your toilet seats and the poster definitely was not referring to yours. However a toilet seat is a thing just like a piano or a car and there's nothing wrong about talking about them in the context of new technology. If it bothers you, you are allowed to say it, but please think about how you behave towards others also.
Yes Outdo, But you should try to care how others feel As for not letting the comment go ,I did .
Originally Posted by Lady Bird
LarryK, I am sorry if I misunderstood you ,it was an insensitive comment you made however.If I owned a YUS5 ,(which I do not)I would be really upset with you.But perhaps you meant no harm.
If I was some kind of a priestess I would offer absolution about the $20,000 piano and the toilet seat comment ,but the poster and I understand each other,.I think. I was not meaning anything nasty about your culture .What I meant was you and I do not understand each other, because of the limitations of social media.
I know one thing....as the owner of an upright, I've been following this thread with interest ( for some of it ), and to constantly be mis-using a fellow members forum name in a negative way reflects very poorly on you. I for one hope you give that up....
Wow, what an awesome sounding piano! I love the big music desk that can be pulled closer and the slow closing fall board. Slow motion mechanisms on toilet seats and piano fall boards should be required by law, haha.
It’s terrific that Yamaha has put a sostenuto pedal and a practice pedal on this model.
Is it worth it to get the TransAcoustic version of the YUS5? I’m definitely putting this piano on my list for when I upgrade from a DP. I have never regretted buying fine classical guitars. Fine instruments make the learning process much more fun, and offer more expressive sound possibilities than cheaply made instruments.
Slow motion mechanisms on grand piano fallboards are now common for almost all brands and models. According to my piano tuner, only Steinway refuses to build slow motion fallboards for their grands. But for uprights, they are uncommon.
About the YUS5 TA: I played one 3 years ago at the Musikmesse Frankfurt. It was really neat. You have a two in one instrument. A complete digital and a complete upright. But it's expensive; and the action is not the action of a grand piano. If I had to move to a smaller apartment without enough space for a grand, and had about 20k to spend on a Yamaha hybrid piano, it might be a choice between the Yamaha N3X and the YUS5 TA. But who knows, maybe an N2 or a Kawai Novus would also work. They are cheaper. Or maybe a hybrid acoustic upright of some other maker? The Blüthner e-volution seems to be an answer to Yamaha's TransAcoustic system. But it's smaller than the YUS5.
And the music desk of the YUS5 is brilliant of course. One thing that I don't like about many uprights is that the music desk hovers far over the keys. Sometimes, my fingers get caught on it. Not a pleasurable experience. With grands, digitals or the YUS5, this problem does not exist. With some Schimmel school pianos it does not exist either; but I don't like their action.
Basically, you can say that the TransAcoustic (or e-volution) is an acoustic piano with silent system where you can play in silent mode without headphones. You have to decide whether it's worth the extra money compared to a YUS5 SH.
Wow, what an awesome sounding piano! I love the big music desk that can be pulled closer and the slow closing fall board. Slow motion mechanisms on toilet seats and piano fall boards should be required by law, haha.
It’s terrific that Yamaha has put a sostenuto pedal and a practice pedal on this model.
Is it worth it to get the TransAcoustic version of the YUS5? I’m definitely putting this piano on my list for when I upgrade from a DP. I have never regretted buying fine classical guitars. Fine instruments make the learning process much more fun, and offer more expressive sound possibilities than cheaply made instruments.
Slow motion mechanisms on grand piano fallboards are now common for almost all brands and models. According to my piano tuner, only Steinway refuses to build slow motion fallboards for their grands. But for uprights, they are uncommon. ...
The YAMAHA YUS1 Upright Mum bought a few years ago has a slow close lid, as does my Grotrian Grand.
Slow motion mechanisms on grand piano fallboards are now common for almost all brands and models. According to my piano tuner, only Steinway refuses to build slow motion fallboards for their grands. But for uprights, they are uncommon. ...
The YAMAHA YUS1 Upright Mum bought a few years ago has a slow close lid, as does my Grotrian Grand.
Apparently I'm not up to date. When my father bought his upright piano in the year 2000, I advised him and went with him to look at a few pianos. I don't remember any uprights with soft close fallboards. My father bought an excellent Sauter, but it doesn't have a soft-close fallboard. I just checked the Yamaha website, and they advertise soft-close fallboards for their SE and U series. They don't mention it for the SU and YUS series; but apparently they have them in the YUS series as well. They don't have them for their b series.
So maybe soft-close fallboards have become common for new uprights as well; at least above entry level.
Wow, what an awesome sounding piano! I love the big music desk that can be pulled closer and the slow closing fall board. Slow motion mechanisms on toilet seats and piano fall boards should be required by law, haha.
It’s terrific that Yamaha has put a sostenuto pedal and a practice pedal on this model.
Is it worth it to get the TransAcoustic version of the YUS5? I’m definitely putting this piano on my list for when I upgrade from a DP. I have never regretted buying fine classical guitars. Fine instruments make the learning process much more fun, and offer more expressive sound possibilities than cheaply made instruments.
Slow motion mechanisms on grand piano fallboards are now common for almost all brands and models. According to my piano tuner, only Steinway refuses to build slow motion fallboards for their grands. But for uprights, they are uncommon.
About the YUS5 TA: I played one 3 years ago at the Musikmesse Frankfurt. It was really neat. You have a two in one instrument. A complete digital and a complete upright. But it's expensive; and the action is not the action of a grand piano. If I had to move to a smaller apartment without enough space for a grand, and had about 20k to spend on a Yamaha hybrid piano, it might be a choice between the Yamaha N3X and the YUS5 TA. But who knows, maybe an N2 or a Kawai Novus would also work. They are cheaper. Or maybe a hybrid acoustic upright of some other maker? The Blüthner e-volution seems to be an answer to Yamaha's TransAcoustic system. But it's smaller than the YUS5.
And the music desk of the YUS5 is brilliant of course. One thing that I don't like about many uprights is that the music desk hovers far over the keys. Sometimes, my fingers get caught on it. Not a pleasurable experience. With grands, digitals or the YUS5, this problem does not exist. With some Schimmel school pianos it does not exist either; but I don't like their action.
Basically, you can say that the TransAcoustic (or e-volution) is an acoustic piano with silent system where you can play in silent mode without headphones. You have to decide whether it's worth the extra money compared to a YUS5 SH.
Thank you for this review of the YUS5 TA2! It is a really neat idea. I think it is for those people who, when asked digital or analog, reply, both!
Does the Blüthner e-volution system include a transducer mounted on the soundboard to use the sound board as a speaker, like on the TransAcoustics? I didn’t see that mentioned on their website but I might have missed it.
I don’t want to give up the silent practice capabilities of digital but I would like the richer, room filling sound of an acoustic piano. I wouldn’t want to inflict my neighbors with incessant practicing on an acoustic but I would like to play “finished†pieces on an acoustic. I think it’s cool to be able to practice a piece silently for a month, and then unveil it to one’s partner. It would be like magic!
Having the same capabilities in one instrument would be worth a lot to me. I know the price is high but the capabilities are also high, so I’m interested in pursuing it in the future.
I know one thing....as the owner of an upright, I've been following this thread with interest ( for some of it ), and to constantly be mis-using a fellow members forum name in a negative way reflects very poorly on you. I for one hope you give that up....
Yes, I need new reading glasses. I misread the name initially and then thought of her as Outdo ! It was yesterday when I read her message to me that noticed for the first time her name Outo !!! So it was not deliberate Ms upright !
Larry, there is a price difference of about $5,000 for the silent version. New mine was around $19,000. I could have bought the silent version price was not an issue. However, I wanted a piano not connected to electronics or what I considered altered. I want an old fashioned piano. I still have my Clavinova and use the headphones. Now as I am progressing, I can appreciate the soft pedal on a baby grand may make more of a difference. I asked my tuner why the soft pedal is not that soft he said the baby grands the hammer hits two strings, with uprights it hits three and explained the mechanical mechanisms. He did note, to get an baby grand of the YUS 5 quality and sound you may look about about $35,000 or more. He refurbishes pianos as well as tunes. I am a mediocre hobbyist and cannot justify that type of instrument. The YUS 5 is my lifetime piano.
I hire my piano teacher to play for the family for my Christmas party I host. It has an incredible sound when a real pianist plays. I do not think you would be disappointed. I had originally bought a new Yamaha U1, sounded not warm (even to my untrained ear) and since the store allowed you to trade in for an upgrade with full price back within a certain amount of time, I did within 60 days and order the YUS 5. I next upright up from the YUS 5, jumps to YUS 7, which is double the price. I never regretted purchasing the YUS 5.
Lady Bird, thanks for your comments. However, I did not take his comments as rude, just as a joke especially that he may be interested in purchasing one. What is nice about the music desk part is behind it is mesh, so the upright sounds from the back and front, I think it has a more full sound. Did not see any uprights with that feature. I spent about 6 months on the Internet before I bought it. There was not one around to try.
Outo I am sorry for using the name Outdo instead of your real name which is Outo ! If I make a mistake please correct me !
I really didn't mind! Things like that do not bother me...besides Outdo sounds cool, I could definitely use it for a nick...
I have a rule on this forum: I will not write to anyone something that I could not say to their face in real life...unfortunately I can be quite outspoken in real life too
Larry, there is a price difference of about $5,000 for the silent version. New mine was around $19,000. I could have bought the silent version price was not an issue. However, I wanted a piano not connected to electronics or what I considered altered. I want an old fashioned piano. I still have my Clavinova and use the headphones. Now as I am progressing, I can appreciate the soft pedal on a baby grand may make more of a difference. I asked my tuner why the soft pedal is not that soft he said the baby grands the hammer hits two strings, with uprights it hits three and explained the mechanical mechanisms. He did note, to get an baby grand of the YUS 5 quality and sound you may look about about $35,000 or more. He refurbishes pianos as well as tunes. I am a mediocre hobbyist and cannot justify that type of instrument. The YUS 5 is my lifetime piano.
I hire my piano teacher to play for the family for my Christmas party I host. It has an incredible sound when a real pianist plays. I do not think you would be disappointed. I had originally bought a new Yamaha U1, sounded not warm (even to my untrained ear) and since the store allowed you to trade in for an upgrade with full price back within a certain amount of time, I did within 60 days and order the YUS 5. I next upright up from the YUS 5, jumps to YUS 7, which is double the price. I never regretted purchasing the YUS 5.
Is the silent version the same as the TransAcoustic version? I’m a bit confused about models and features. The YUS5 would certainly be my lifetime piano. I can understand the appeal of having an old fashioned piano with no electronics. I play the classical guitar and am thankful that I only have to change strings and not have to deal with anything that consumes electricity. The fact that a piano has no electronics certainly means that there are fewer things that can go wrong.
Lady bird, thank for your comments. People on this forum should not think that people who purchase uprights cannot afford a new baby grand or grand. It is a matter of what someone values. I work with a man who I have known a long time, says he will never retire he likes to work. Drives a 15 year old truck and lives in a 2000 square foot home. His wife works a retail job. Their net worth is about 7 million.
Larry, here is the link for the silent version. I thought that is what you meant. Maybe there are other types I am not familiar with. I want you to know that the part where you put your music on, actually pulls forward, underneath is mesh and sound comes from the back and the front of the piano.
Outo I am sorry for using the name Outdo instead of your real name which is Outo ! If I make a mistake please correct me !
I really didn't mind! Things like that do not bother me...besides Outdo sounds cool, I could definitely use it for a nick...
I have a rule on this forum: I will not write to anyone something that I could not say to their face in real life...unfortunately I can be quite outspoken in real life too
Thank you , I guess I can understand how I made that mistake.Outdo, has perhaps more meaning to me in English . (also easy to remember )Strangely enough I also thought it quite cool ! But so is Outo !
Outo I am sorry for using the name Outdo instead of your real name which is Outo ! If I make a mistake please correct me !
I really didn't mind! Things like that do not bother me...besides Outdo sounds cool, I could definitely use it for a nick...
I have a rule on this forum: I will not write to anyone something that I could not say to their face in real life...unfortunately I can be quite outspoken in real life too
Thank you , I guess I can understand how I made that mistake.Outdo, has perhaps more meaning to me in English . (also easy to remember )Strangely enough I also thought it quite cool ! But so is Outo !
Which is a real word in Finnish, but also what some of my friends fondly use as a nickname for me
Larry, here is the link for the silent version. I thought that is what you meant. Maybe there are other types I am not familiar with. I want you to know that the part where you put your music on, actually pulls forward, underneath is mesh and sound comes from the back and the front of the piano.
[quote=patH]Thank you for this review of the YUS5 TA2! It is a really neat idea. I think it is for those people who, when asked digital or analog, reply, both!
Does the Blüthner e-volution system include a transducer mounted on the soundboard to use the sound board as a speaker, like on the TransAcoustics? I didn’t see that mentioned on their website but I might have missed it.
I don’t want to give up the silent practice capabilities of digital but I would like the richer, room filling sound of an acoustic piano. I wouldn’t want to inflict my neighbors with incessant practicing on an acoustic but I would like to play “finished†pieces on an acoustic. I think it’s cool to be able to practice a piece silently for a month, and then unveil it to one’s partner. It would be like magic!
Having the same capabilities in one instrument would be worth a lot to me. I know the price is high but the capabilities are also high, so I’m interested in pursuing it in the future.
I don't think the Blüthner e-volution uses the soundboard as a loudspeaker. From what I read on their website, they seem to use loudspeakers by Bose, which are usually good quality. I only tried the e-volution briefly 3 years ago; and I don't think I tried the loudspeakers. But then, I already have a grand piano with silent system, so I'm not a potential customer.
The difference between an "ordinary" silent system like the Yamaha SH, the Kawai AnyTime, the Bechstein Vario, the PianoDisc QT, and all other systems in existence, and a piano-loudspeaking digital system like the TransAcoustic/e-volution system is that you can hear the digital sound only through a headphone plug. Which usually means: Through a headphone. A workaround would be: Connect the digital system to your HiFi chain, and play the piano via the loudspeakers of your HiFi chain. The disadvantage is that the sound does not come from the piano. Unless the loudspeakers are positioned next to the piano, which they aren't in my apartment. But if you really want the digital piano sound to come from the piano, you might want the TransAcoustic system by Yamaha, or the e-volution by Blüthner. Or some other system I don't know about.
The question is: Is it worth it? Since the TransAcoustic system has been on the market for a few years now, I guess this means that some people think so. Why would Yamaha have a product available if they didn't sell it?
Outo I am sorry for using the name Outdo instead of your real name which is Outo ! If I make a mistake please correct me !
I really didn't mind! Things like that do not bother me...besides Outdo sounds cool, I could definitely use it for a nick...
I have a rule on this forum: I will not write to anyone something that I could not say to their face in real life...unfortunately I can be quite outspoken in real life too
Thank you , I guess I can understand how I made that mistake.Outdo, has perhaps more meaning to me in English . (also easy to remember )Strangely enough I also thought it quite cool ! But so is Outo !
Which is a real word in Finnish, but also what some of my friends fondly use as a nickname for me
What does the word mean in Finnish .,I mean if one translates the word to English ?
Outo I am sorry for using the name Outdo instead of your real name which is Outo ! If I make a mistake please correct me !
I really didn't mind! Things like that do not bother me...besides Outdo sounds cool, I could definitely use it for a nick...
I have a rule on this forum: I will not write to anyone something that I could not say to their face in real life...unfortunately I can be quite outspoken in real life too
Thank you , I guess I can understand how I made that mistake.Outdo, has perhaps more meaning to me in English . (also easy to remember )Strangely enough I also thought it quite cool ! But so is Outo !
Which is a real word in Finnish, but also what some of my friends fondly use as a nickname for me
That interested me so I had to look up the Finnish word "outo". Good nickname!
That interested me so I had to look up the Finnish word "outo". Good nickname!
This has nothing to do with this thread, but since it has drifted a bit OT anyway, I figured I'd share my childhood nickname. My mom said when I was a toddler I get my dad's wrist watch and hold it up to my ear and say "tick-tick, tick-tick, tick-tick". So, they started calling me "tick-tick; had an uncle that called me "Ricky-ticky-tam". Mom also said I tried to take it (the wrist watch) apart to see how it worked. She said I would also take all my toys apart to see how they worked.
So, I suppose it is no surprise I've taken a few pianos apart to see how they worked...
Now back to our regularly scheduled program thread...
That interested me so I had to look up the Finnish word "outo". Good nickname!
This has nothing to do with this thread, but since it has drifted a bit OT anyway, I figured I'd share my childhood nickname. My mom said when I was a toddler I get my dad's wrist watch and hold it up to my ear and say "tick-tick, tick-tick, tick-tick". So, they started calling me "tick-tick; had an uncle that called me "Ricky-ticky-tam". Mom also said I tried to take it (the wrist watch) apart to see how it worked. She said I would also take all my toys apart to see how they worked.
So, I suppose it is no surprise I've taken a few pianos apart to see how they worked...
Now back to our regularly scheduled program thread...
Fey -Is one translation .,My aunt called me fey when I was a kid (What I think that means is that one is unusua)l "kind of like you came from the fairies" ? Anyway my aunt was very sweet, but eccentric so perhaps it runs in the family. She gave me her pre-war Seiler piano, so when I was nearly 12 , I received my first piano !
...Mom also said I tried to take it (the wrist watch) apart to see how it worked. She said I would also take all my toys apart to see how they worked.
So, I suppose it is no surprise I've taken a few pianos apart to see how they worked...
Now back to our regularly scheduled program thread...
Rick
So I wasn't the only one .
My mother, now 89yo, reminds me of my pulling the kitchen clock apart. It was always 5-7 mins fast, and I'd adjusted the adjuster, fixed the time by the radio time beeps every morning, but next day it would be 5-7 mins fast. I just couldn't understand it.
I was about 7 or 8, always inquisitive, so pulled it apart. When the spring sprunged - I was no longer able to put it back together.
THEN - the truth came out. Mum would advance it every night when she wound it to be 5-7 mins fast - so she wouldn't be late ...
...Mom also said I tried to take it (the wrist watch) apart to see how it worked. She said I would also take all my toys apart to see how they worked.
So, I suppose it is no surprise I've taken a few pianos apart to see how they worked...
Now back to our regularly scheduled program thread...
Rick
So I wasn't the only one .
My mother, now 89yo, reminds me of my pulling the kitchen clock apart. It was always 5-7 mins fast, and I'd adjusted the adjuster, fixed the time by the radio time beeps every morning, but next day it would be 5-7 mins fast. I just couldn't understand it.
I was about 7 or 8, always inquisitive, so pulled it apart. When the spring sprunged - I was no longer able to put it back together.
THEN - the truth came out. Mum would advance it every night when she wound it to be 5-7 mins fast - so she wouldn't be late ...
Alan
These memories, they are what make us ,as people.They are precious !!!
I bought an aftermarket slow close for the fallboard of my upright when I was in China. Got it from the Shanghai music expo. I actually bought 3, one for me and one for each of my two teachers. (2 women, so I treted them exactly alike).
The strange thing is that there was no phone number, brand name or website on the packaging. So I was unable to get any more! There is a thread somewhere on the subject.
I have to wonder how many pianists claiming an upright is better than any digital (including hybrid digitals like the NV10 and Avantgrand) are actually advanced pianists with sufficient technique to be able to make that judgement? I don't bring this point up as some sort of repertoire competition, but rather that in my experience the limitations of certain instruments could only be found once my capability exceeded them. For example, when I was learning the third movement of Rachmaninoff's 2nd concerto, the beginning theme was just fine on a Kawai CA51 before I had practiced it enough to get up to the performance tempo I was shooting for. I hummed along thinking "this is great, my CA51 is good enough for any rep!" Actually, I had it wrong - I just wasn't as good as my CA51 was yet.
But months later once I had it up to performance tempo? The CA51 was tapped out - the theme was extremely difficult to play on an upright or entry level digital, where on a hybrid digital or acoustic grand it basically plays itself. Another area like this to me which is extremely piano dependent is the finale of the 2nd movement of Brahm's 2nd concerto (the descending waterfall-like figures). I need some key weight there and the crisp feel of a grand to play it up to tempo and quickly.
For 99% of cases, I can technically play most music on a basic grand, an upright, a digital hybrid, or an acoustic grand. It's not as if having one vs. another will prevent you from learning basically any repertoire out there. But if we are talking about moving beyond simply being able to technically play something, I can't play something quite as well on an upright as I can on a good acoustic grand or digital hybrid.
I guess what I'm trying to say is that I understand if someone prefers an upright to a digital hybrid simply because it's an acoustic, but that's very different than saying an upright actually plays better than one.
I'll go the other way - there is no acoustic upright in the world that has a better action than a Novus Nv10 or Yamaha Avantgrand, because those instruments have real grand piano actions. Disagree with me? Great! But to be taken seriously, I hope you've both spent extensive time with a NV10 or Avantgrand, and have the technique to be credible.
I bought an aftermarket slow close for the fallboard of my upright when I was in China. Got it from the Shanghai music expo. I actually bought 3, one for me and one for each of my two teachers. (2 women, so I treted them exactly alike).
The strange thing is that there was no phone number, brand name or website on the packaging. So I was unable to get any more! There is a thread somewhere on the subject.
Was it just a mechanism that one fitted on the fallboard or was it a whole new fallboard. I am just thinking in case the name of the piano was Bechstein, you would end up with a no name piano ?
I have to wonder how many pianists claiming an upright is better than any digital (including hybrid digitals like the NV10 and Avantgrand) are actually advanced pianists with sufficient technique to be able to make that judgement? I don't bring this point up as some sort of repertoire competition, but rather that in my experience the limitations of certain instruments could only be found once my capability exceeded them. For example, when I was learning the third movement of Rachmaninoff's 2nd concerto, the beginning theme was just fine on a Kawai CA51 before I had practiced it enough to get up to the performance tempo I was shooting for. I hummed along thinking "this is great, my CA51 is good enough for any rep!" Actually, I had it wrong - I just wasn't as good as my CA51 was yet.
But months later once I had it up to performance tempo? The CA51 was tapped out - the theme was extremely difficult to play on an upright or entry level digital, where on a hybrid digital or acoustic grand it basically plays itself. Another area like this to me which is extremely piano dependent is the finale of the 2nd movement of Brahm's 2nd concerto (the descending waterfall-like figures). I need some key weight there and the crisp feel of a grand to play it up to tempo and quickly.
For 99% of cases, I can technically play most music on a basic grand, an upright, a digital hybrid, or an acoustic grand. It's not as if having one vs. another will prevent you from learning basically any repertoire out there. But if we are talking about moving beyond simply being able to technically play something, I can't play something quite as well on an upright as I can on a good acoustic grand or digital hybrid.
I guess what I'm trying to say is that I understand if someone prefers an upright to a digital hybrid simply because it's an acoustic, but that's very different than saying an upright actually plays better than one.
I'll go the other way - there is no acoustic upright in the world that has a better action than a Novus Nv10 or Yamaha Avantgrand, because those instruments have real grand piano actions. Disagree with me? Great! But to be taken seriously, I hope you've both spent extensive time with a NV10 or Avantgrand, and have the technique to be credible.
I doubt that most people comparing uprights with digitals really care that much about the action. I also think that the comparison of the average upright with top-of-the-line digitals is not a fair comparison. There are upright actions that play as well or better than the best grand action, but they are far rarer than digitals with hybrid actions.
I have to wonder how many pianists claiming an upright is better than any digital (including hybrid digitals like the NV10 and Avantgrand) are actually advanced pianists with sufficient technique to be able to make that judgement? I don't bring this point up as some sort of repertoire competition, but rather that in my experience the limitations of certain instruments could only be found once my capability exceeded them. For example, when I was learning the third movement of Rachmaninoff's 2nd concerto, the beginning theme was just fine on a Kawai CA51 before I had practiced it enough to get up to the performance tempo I was shooting for. I hummed along thinking "this is great, my CA51 is good enough for any rep!" Actually, I had it wrong - I just wasn't as good as my CA51 was yet.
But months later once I had it up to performance tempo? The CA51 was tapped out - the theme was extremely difficult to play on an upright or entry level digital, where on a hybrid digital or acoustic grand it basically plays itself. Another area like this to me which is extremely piano dependent is the finale of the 2nd movement of Brahm's 2nd concerto (the descending waterfall-like figures). I need some key weight there and the crisp feel of a grand to play it up to tempo and quickly.
For 99% of cases, I can technically play most music on a basic grand, an upright, a digital hybrid, or an acoustic grand. It's not as if having one vs. another will prevent you from learning basically any repertoire out there. But if we are talking about moving beyond simply being able to technically play something, I can't play something quite as well on an upright as I can on a good acoustic grand or digital hybrid.
I guess what I'm trying to say is that I understand if someone prefers an upright to a digital hybrid simply because it's an acoustic, but that's very different than saying an upright actually plays better than one.
I'll go the other way - there is no acoustic upright in the world that has a better action than a Novus Nv10 or Yamaha Avantgrand, because those instruments have real grand piano actions. Disagree with me? Great! But to be taken seriously, I hope you've both spent extensive time with a NV10 or Avantgrand, and have the technique to be credible.
Great that you learnt those concertos ! How did the 1st and last movements go? Enjoy your piano !
Computerpro3, I wish I could say my YUS 5 can't keep up with me. I wish I was that good. I bet most people who play do not fall into your category. I am too much a novice to worry about action, and truthfully probably never get to that point. I just wanted a nice acoustic. I admire people who play well, I realize how much work went into it.
Computerpro3, I wish I could say my YUS 5 can't keep up with me. I wish I was that good. I bet most people who play do not fall into your category. I am too much a novice to worry about action, and truthfully probably never get to that point. I just wanted a nice acoustic. I admire people who play well, I realize how much work went into it.
Same here...
On occasion someone will complement me on my piano playing. But I know they are most likely just being polite, or they haven't heard anyone who plays very well. But I still enjoy my playing and try to improve and develop my meager piano playing skills beyond what they are. Of course, my grandchildren think I can actually play a piano and it makes them smile, which makes me smile.
I still think I can play well enough to appreciate a nice piano, be it a digital, upright or grand. I played my Yamaha C7 and my Baldwin R a while this afternoon and enjoyed it much. For a while, I was in a world of my own where I could actually play a piano, until reality set in once again...
And, as you say, DFSRN, I do admire and appreciate those who can play very well.
Computerpro3, I wish I could say my YUS 5 can't keep up with me. I wish I was that good. I bet most people who play do not fall into your category. I am too much a novice to worry about action, and truthfully probably never get to that point. I just wanted a nice acoustic. I admire people who play well, I realize how much work went into it.
Same here...
On occasion someone will complement me on my piano playing. But I know they are most likely just being polite, or they haven't heard anyone who plays very well. But I still enjoy my playing and try to improve and develop my meager piano playing skills beyond what they are. Of course, my grandchildren think I can actually play a piano and it makes them smile, which makes me smile.
I still think I can play well enough to appreciate a nice piano, be it a digital, upright or grand. I played my Yamaha C7 and my Baldwin R a while this afternoon and enjoyed it much. For a while, I was in a world of my own where I could actually play a piano, until reality set in once again...
And, as you say, DFSRN, I do admire and appreciate those who can play very well.
Rick
Yes but I only praise people after I have heard them play !
Yes but I only praise people after I have heard them play !
You are wise, Lady Bird. I've heard some people brag a lot about how well they can play a piano. When I actually heard them play, I was rather disappointed. Not that I can play all that well myself. But if you are going to lift yourself up on a pedestal of piano playing greatness, there needs to be some evidence or demonstration to justify all the boasting. Of course, there is a great deal of individual subjectivity when it comes to listening to others play and accessing or judging how well they can play a piano, or not.
Also, there is something else I've learned over the years. You don't have to play extremely well or achieve musical perfection in order for others to enjoy your musical performance. Presentation and persona can be just as important as musical coherence.
Oh yea, while I'm on a roll here, no matter how well someone can play a piano, there is someone else who can play a lot better. For some reason, this conversation reminds me of a song written by Charlie Daniels about a fiddle player... "Devil went down to Georgia"
I am just being my over defensive self Rickster, I go through these times ? This thread has been like a roller-coaster, so many things have been said.(by me as well which I am sorry for ) and just when I think it's going to fizzle out......... It really is time for me to run away from it. What does OT stand for? I have not listened to the song yet ,but I will Thank you.
I am just being my over defensive self Rickster, I go through these times ? This thread has been like a roller-coaster, so many things have been said.(by me as well which I am sorry for ) and just when I think it's going to fizzle out......... It really is time for me to run away from it. What does OT stand for? I have not listened to the song yet ,but I will Thank you.
Forums are a strange beast. We can sometimes feel good and safe as we read posts but also feel insulted and offended by a few potent words in a reply. Adding a comment to a thread is slower and requires a bit more thought than it does on Facebook or Twitter and I try to use the extra time to stay calm, relaxed, and learn from PW forums. As a member here for a few years I’ve learned (and this has been more than a little difficult) not to get defensive about which piano resides in my home. The very fact that we have a home, an acoustic and/or digital pianos, that we can hear, enjoy, and play to whatever proficiency these instruments, tempers all my piano inadequacies and piano playing deficiencies. On Piano World, we all share something we all love and should be able to read different opinions, even if it’s tough to listen to. There’s always that one friend that when you show them your new car or SUV, just has to say something about it’s low rating on Consumer Reports or “why didn’t you get a real truck instead of that?†“Why didn’t you buy a good piano like a Steinway?†“You had room for a bigger piano in this room, why didn’t you get a bigger one?†Truthfully it brings me down and I don’t have snappy comebacks in the moment. By reading and participating on PW forums, I’m able to be happy with the many blessings I’ve received and feel good because I’m able to enjoy this hobby fully.
Forums are a strange beast. We can sometimes feel good and safe as we read posts but also feel insulted and offended by a few potent words in a reply. Adding a comment to a thread is slower and requires a bit more thought than it does on Facebook or Twitter and I try to use the extra time to stay calm, relaxed, and learn from PW forums. As a member here for a few years I’ve learned (and this has been more than a little difficult) not to get defensive about which piano resides in my home. The very fact that we have a home, an acoustic and/or digital pianos, that we can hear, enjoy, and play to whatever proficiency these instruments, tempers all my piano inadequacies and piano playing deficiencies. On Piano World, we all share something we all love and should be able to read different opinions, even if it’s tough to listen to. There’s always that one friend that when you show them your new car or SUV, just has to say something about it’s low rating on Consumer Reports or “why didn’t you get a real truck instead of that?†“Why didn’t you buy a good piano like a Steinway?†“You had room for a bigger piano in this room, why didn’t you get a bigger one?†Truthfully it brings me down and I don’t have snappy comebacks in the moment. By reading and participating on PW forums, I’m able to be happy with the many blessings I’ve received and feel good because I’m able to enjoy this hobby fully.
+1
Excellent post, j&j! Made my day!
I certainly can't add anything to your comments above, and, you are so right. Sometimes these threads on PW can morph into "my piano is better than yours", or "I can play better than you". Yet, and still, these threads on the PW forums are not quite as hostile as they used to be, and that's a good thing.
I am, I think as every person on PW knows very happy with my piano.Yes I am oversentive about it being a Sauter upright because there was a great deal of controversy about the past distributor.I was in the process of buying the piano when there was a thread which seemed more like a war.For some reason I almost felt it involved me ! After that there was little said about on PM about Sauter until I arrived. As for quality of piano playing .I only try and practice an hour a day(if that) So my playing is certainly not up to much anymore ! It is for my husband ,my dog and the goldfish.(that's enough !) But yes one cannot not deny that this has not been the most sensitive of threads especially when it comes to descriptions even of appearance or apparent lack of worth of upright accoustic pianos. At one point I lost my temper and denigrated digital pianos.So I am sorry about that. Yes the point of being thankful should be taken but I think that applies to everyone weather you own a Sauter ,Yamaha,Steinways, Essex,Roland , Bluthner ,Avant Grand, Casio or Kawai.To everyone,enjoy your pianos and especially your playing.
I am, I think as every person on PW knows very happy with my piano.Yes I am oversentive about it being a Sauter upright because there was a great deal of controversy about the past distributor.I was in the process of buying the piano when there was a thread which seemed more like a war.For some reason I almost felt it involved me ! After that there was little said about on PM about Sauter until I arrived. As for quality of piano playing .I only try and practice an hour a day(if that) So my playing is certainly not up to much anymore ! It is for my husband ,my dog and the goldfish.(that's enough !) But yes one cannot not deny that this has not been the most sensitive of threads especially when it comes to descriptions even of appearance or apparent lack of worth of upright accoustic pianos. At one point I lost my temper and denigrated digital pianos.So I am sorry about that. Yes the point of being thankful should be taken but I think that applies to everyone weather you own a Sauter ,Yamaha,Steinways, Essex,Roland , Bluthner ,Avant Grand, Casio or Kawai.To everyone,enjoy your pianos and especially your playing.
Norbert, a long-time PW member/piano dealer owns a Sauter upright piano. He used to be a Sauter dealer. I saw a video he sent me of him playing the Sauter upright and it sounded superb! Had a nice low bass. And he can play the "Boogie-Woogie" quite well!
So, you see, we can and do develop an appreciation and respect for other members here who may own a different piano than us or play a different kind of music. Diversity is a good thing...
I have just received a message from Norbert, as I sent him a message. I think we respect each other very well! I have heard him play and yes he plays very well .I may be a bit Fugual in my approach to music but that was my training. Yes and I think we should respect each others pianos and not try and make them"lesser" or cheapen them in any way because despite what you say I have seen that happen ! You are a kind person and would not ,from what I have seen do that.
I am, I think as every person on PW knows very happy with my piano.Yes I am oversentive about it being a Sauter upright because there was a great deal of controversy about the past distributor.I was in the process of buying the piano when there was a thread which seemed more like a war.For some reason I almost felt it involved me ! After that there was little said about on PM about Sauter until I arrived. As for quality of piano playing .I only try and practice an hour a day(if that) So my playing is certainly not up to much anymore ! It is for my husband ,my dog and the goldfish.(that's enough !) But yes one cannot not deny that this has not been the most sensitive of threads especially when it comes to descriptions even of appearance or apparent lack of worth of upright accoustic pianos. At one point I lost my temper and denigrated digital pianos.So I am sorry about that. Yes the point of being thankful should be taken but I think that applies to everyone weather you own a Sauter ,Yamaha,Steinways, Essex,Roland , Bluthner ,Avant Grand, Casio or Kawai.To everyone,enjoy your pianos and especially your playing.
The internet can bring out the best and the worst of us, but we are all in the same boat and I think at times we get upset but that helps us to understand when others do as well. And, heaven forfend, we sometimes go OTT in our comments. I'm currently a Casio player 'by default' (it was bought as a portable keyboard to take on holiday many years ago when I had extra money) because my ancient Amyl acoustic (described dismissively as 'noisy furniture' on one site by some 'expert' or other - humph, idiot!) really seems to be at the end of its life and I will miss it badly, so at times the 'Casio comments' get to me - but really, people have different views and have their reasons for them. We can't all always agree and none of us is perfect (OK, a bit trite), but we can appreciate (and enjoy) the diversity of opinions. Your last point is so apposite (used a 'clever' word there......) and to me the most important aspect of the whole discussion. To me it's about making and enjoying music. I always appreciate your posts, btw., and no, I don't have an audience except my wife. No dog or goldfish, though.
The internet can bring out the best and the worst of us, but we are all in the same boat and I think at times we get upset but that helps us to understand when others do as well. And, heaven forfend, we sometimes go OTT in our comments. I'm currently a Casio player 'by default' (it was bought as a portable keyboard to take on holiday many years ago when I had extra money) because my ancient Amyl acoustic (described dismissively as 'noisy furniture' on one site by some 'expert' or other - humph, idiot!) really seems to be at the end of its life and I will miss it badly, so at times the 'Casio comments' get to me - but really, people have different views and have their reasons for them. We can't all always agree and none of us is perfect (OK, a bit trite), but we can appreciate (and enjoy) the diversity of opinions. Your last point is so apposite (used a 'clever' word there......) and to me the most important aspect of the whole discussion. To me it's about making and enjoying music. I always appreciate your posts, btw., and no, I don't have an audience except my wife. No dog or goldfish, though.
Hey, I have a Casio digital piano too! (Privia PX310)
I like it a lot, and play it often. In fact, I'm surprised it has held up as well as it has between my grandchildren and me pounding on it. That said, I'm quite impressed with it.
As far as playing for an audience, I had the privilege of playing in front of about 3000 people at a large Church several years ago. Since I play mostly by ear, hence, muscle memory, I got distracted due to tremendous stage freight, sitting next to other professional musicians, and looking up at the huge TV broadcast monitor showing me close-up and personal, I messed up, big-time, during my performance. However, I did learn a very important lesson when it comes to performing music in public... the art of recovery.
Back to your comments, I liked this the best "To me it's about making and enjoying music". That indeed transcends whether we play a digital, hybrid, upright or grand...
Yes but I only praise people after I have heard them play !
You are wise, Lady Bird. I've heard some people brag a lot about how well they can play a piano. When I actually heard them play, I was rather disappointed. Not that I can play all that well myself. But if you are going to lift yourself up on a pedestal of piano playing greatness, there needs to be some evidence or demonstration to justify all the boasting. Of course, there is a great deal of individual subjectivity when it comes to listening to others play and accessing or judging how well they can play a piano, or not.
Also, there is something else I've learned over the years. You don't have to play extremely well or achieve musical perfection in order for others to enjoy your musical performance. Presentation and persona can be just as important as musical coherence.
Oh yea, while I'm on a roll here, no matter how well someone can play a piano, there is someone else who can play a lot better. For some reason, this conversation reminds me of a song written by Charlie Daniels about a fiddle player... "Devil went down to Georgia"
Sorry for the OT... or is it really OT?
Rick
There is a difference between playing "well" and having good technique.
I was speaking rather narrowly as to stick to the topic of the thread. There are tons of pianists in this world who have incredible technique, but I think their playing stinks for musical reasons. But from a technical standpoint, they are much more qualified to speak to the qualities of an upright vs. a digital vs. a digital hybrid than someone whose playing I immensely enjoy, but plays simpler repertoire that does not push the technical limitations of their instrument.
I can play a slow bach prelude and fugue that doesn't have much ornamentation musically and equally well on an upright, digital, or hybrid digital. I can't play a Rachmaninov concerto equally well on an upright and a hybrid digital due to the action limitations on an upright. To me, the purpose of a piano is a tool that I can make music on.
Thus, the very simple answer of why anyone would choose a digital hybrid over an upright for the same money is: because personally, I can make better music on a digital hybrid than I can on an upright due to the far superior action.
I am, I think as every person on PW knows very happy with my piano.Yes I am oversentive about it being a Sauter upright because there was a great deal of controversy about the past distributor.I was in the process of buying the piano when there was a thread which seemed more like a war.For some reason I almost felt it involved me ! After that there was little said about on PM about Sauter until I arrived. As for quality of piano playing .I only try and practice an hour a day(if that) So my playing is certainly not up to much anymore ! It is for my husband ,my dog and the goldfish.(that's enough !) But yes one cannot not deny that this has not been the most sensitive of threads especially when it comes to descriptions even of appearance or apparent lack of worth of upright accoustic pianos. At one point I lost my temper and denigrated digital pianos.So I am sorry about that. Yes the point of being thankful should be taken but I think that applies to everyone weather you own a Sauter ,Yamaha,Steinways, Essex,Roland , Bluthner ,Avant Grand, Casio or Kawai.To everyone,enjoy your pianos and especially your playing.
The internet can bring out the best and the worst of us, but we are all in the same boat and I think at times we get upset but that helps us to understand when others do as well. And, heaven forfend, we sometimes go OTT in our comments. I'm currently a Casio player 'by default' (it was bought as a portable keyboard to take on holiday many years ago when I had extra money) because my ancient Amyl acoustic (described dismissively as 'noisy furniture' on one site by some 'expert' or other - humph, idiot!) really seems to be at the end of its life and I will miss it badly, so at times the 'Casio comments' get to me - but really, people have different views and have their reasons for them. We can't all always agree and none of us is perfect (OK, a bit trite), but we can appreciate (and enjoy) the diversity of opinions. Your last point is so apposite (used a 'clever' word there......) and to me the most important aspect of the whole discussion. To me it's about making and enjoying music. I always appreciate your posts, btw., and no, I don't have an audience except my wife. No dog or goldfish, though.
Thank you! I appreciate your post. Yes calling your accoustic upright " noisy furniture "is the kind of weird comments that sometimes appear on PW and it is unfortunate because many older uprights maintain thier charm for many years .I am glad you love playing your Casio piano. I often play my digital piano in the late evenings when I do not want to disturb anyone.So we shall carry on making music---war or no war on PW !!! (Just joking ! )
I just can’t stop thinking about this post. When it was mentioned that Norbert has a big beautiful sounding Sauter upright, I was wondering if it’s just that big beautiful German uprights that sound fabulous are something of a niche market. When I look at the prices of those tall Sauter’s it makes me wonder if the average piano customer immediately moves over to look at the grands. Of course Norbert would know. I’ve shopped for pianos and played other people’s pianos but I’ve never seen or had the opportunity to play anything better in an acoustic upright than a YUS1 or a similar Kawai upright (can’t remember the models). I certainly wasn’t even thinking of handmade ? German uprights when I was writing about why I prefer grands.
I just can’t stop thinking about this post. When it was mentioned that Norbert has a big beautiful sounding Sauter upright, I was wondering if it’s just that big beautiful German uprights that sound fabulous are something of a niche market. When I look at the prices of those tall Sauter’s it makes me wonder if the average piano customer immediately moves over to look at the grands. Of course Norbert would know. I’ve shopped for pianos and played other people’s pianos but I’ve never seen or had the opportunity to play anything better in an acoustic upright than a YUS1 or a similar Kawai upright (can’t remember the models). I certainly wasn’t even thinking of handmade ? German uprights when I was writing about why I prefer grands.
Well, since this thread seems to keep going on and on and on, like the Energizer Bunny Rabbit, ( ) I'll join in once again...
Chances are, Norbert got a good discount on his Sauter upright, being a dealer and all. But I'm just speculating. That could have been one incentive for him to choose his Sauter upright piano over something else.
My experience with acoustic pianos, both uprights and grands, is very limited. That said, I do have an older Kawai K48A upright piano in my living room that I like a lot. Being a 1969 model, although probably one of the most expensive of Kawai's upright pianos at the time, it does have some wear and has had some of the "goodie" played out of it. But it still retains a fairly high level of quality playability as a musical instrument. I enjoy playing it a lot and play it often.
But if I had to choose only one piano that I currently own, it would be my Yamaha C7 semi-concert grand. And, like the Kawai upright, even though it has some wear, being a 1978 model in mostly original condition, it is still a fabulous musical instrument in my opinion. I just played it a few minutes ago, and enjoyed it immensely.
People choose an upright over a grand (or a digital/hybrid) for various reasons. Personally, I would not criticize someone for choosing an upright over a grand; it is a personal choice. There are lots of reasons that I can think of why someone would choose a very expensive upright over a similarly priced grand. It is an individual decision.
Why do people not favor uprights? That can only be answered by those who do not favor uprights. I would suggest buying the piano you like best and live and let live, instead of trying to convince someone they should have made a different choice for whatever reason.
Just my .02 that keeps adding up but doesn't increase beyond .02 .00.
I just can’t stop thinking about this post. When it was mentioned that Norbert has a big beautiful sounding Sauter upright, I was wondering if it’s just that big beautiful German uprights that sound fabulous are something of a niche market. When I look at the prices of those tall Sauter’s it makes me wonder if the average piano customer immediately moves over to look at the grands. Of course Norbert would know. I’ve shopped for pianos and played other people’s pianos but I’ve never seen or had the opportunity to play anything better in an acoustic upright than a YUS1 or a similar Kawai upright (can’t remember the models). I certainly wasn’t even thinking of handmade ? German uprights when I was writing about why I prefer grands.
I can hear the greater richness of the German uprights when they’re compared to Yamaha uprights in YouTube videos.
How much does it have to do with voicing the piano? Can a Yamaha YUS5 be made to sound like a German upright?
I just can’t stop thinking about this post. When it was mentioned that Norbert has a big beautiful sounding Sauter upright, I was wondering if it’s just that big beautiful German uprights that sound fabulous are something of a niche market. When I look at the prices of those tall Sauter’s it makes me wonder if the average piano customer immediately moves over to look at the grands. Of course Norbert would know. I’ve shopped for pianos and played other people’s pianos but I’ve never seen or had the opportunity to play anything better in an acoustic upright than a YUS1 or a similar Kawai upright (can’t remember the models). I certainly wasn’t even thinking of handmade ? German uprights when I was writing about why I prefer grands.
I understand the prices of all these German uprights are rather high. Many may prefer a grand. Just enjoy your piano.I have tried a Yamaha C3 and it was wonderful ! At this stage in life I did not want to be tied to a grand.As it is this upright is just so large it scares me a little.But my Kawai grand was somehow irreplaceable being an early gift from my parents who passed away just a few months before I turned 20.So this upright whose tone we loved became ours instead of a YUS5. The Kawai was bought from us and has a knew life I believe and has been restrung and repaired so that gives me joy. At times when things are too much I just imagine that Kawai being played by someone and that's enough !
I just can’t stop thinking about this post. When it was mentioned that Norbert has a big beautiful sounding Sauter upright, I was wondering if it’s just that big beautiful German uprights that sound fabulous are something of a niche market. When I look at the prices of those tall Sauter’s it makes me wonder if the average piano customer immediately moves over to look at the grands. Of course Norbert would know. I’ve shopped for pianos and played other people’s pianos but I’ve never seen or had the opportunity to play anything better in an acoustic upright than a YUS1 or a similar Kawai upright (can’t remember the models). I certainly wasn’t even thinking of handmade ? German uprights when I was writing about why I prefer grands.
I can hear the greater richness of the German uprights when they’re compared to Yamaha uprights in YouTube videos.
How much does it have to do with voicing the piano? Can a Yamaha YUS5 be made to sound like a German upright?
The Yamaha YUS5 I tried in a store had very a mellow sound.I know they have German strings and very nice grand piano hammers.It was similar to a European tone.I was at that time trying out quite few German uprights.So it is a good alternative.
Rickster, Yes you have a barrel load of cents already, it is all adding up ! I am just not sure where they keep your money on this thread ? Thank you for your last post. As you say there are a whole number of reasons why people buy an upright after a grand. Your C7 sounds like a lovely piano!
The difficulty of writing in shades is, IMO, one reason for much of the acrimony on forums. Learning to craft writing that conveys shades of feeling is perhaps almost as difficult as learning to play in shades.
Now for my 2 bits bits worth on the topic at hand: 1) No matter what you have, practice every day, without fail. It will make a much bigger difference than buying a super expensive piano. More is better, but even just 10 minutes a day is way better than an hour only once a week. 2) Questions? Refer to rule #1.
I started out in 1st grade, on perhaps the worlds crappiest spinet thing, an old Winter from the 1930s. It was so junk, that if you played too hard, the little pawls (probably not the correct name) would jump out of their tracks, so I got really good at lifting the lid and resetting them. But I played on. Good thing too, because my parents never did buy a new piano. If I'd given up just because I didn't have the most perfect piano, I guess I would have denied myself a lifetime of enjoyment. Aloha all.
The difficulty of writing in shades is, IMO, one reason for much of the acrimony on forums. Learning to craft writing that conveys shades of feeling is perhaps almost as difficult as learning to play in shades.
Now for my 2 bits bits worth on the topic at hand: 1) No matter what you have, practice every day, without fail. It will make a much bigger difference than buying a super expensive piano. More is better, but even just 10 minutes a day is way better than an hour only once a week. 2) Questions? Refer to rule #1.
I started out in 1st grade, on perhaps the worlds crappiest spinet thing, an old Winter from the 1930s. It was so junk, that if you played too hard, the little pawls (probably not the correct name) would jump out of their tracks, so I got really good at lifting the lid and resetting them. But I played on. Good thing too, because my parents never did buy a new piano. If I'd given up just because I didn't have the most perfect piano, I guess I would have denied myself a lifetime of enjoyment. Aloha all.
Of course - I started with an over-damper piano till Mum bought a new KAWAI after I'd been playing almost 10 years, it was a huge improvement.
Then 5yrs later, when first married - back to a similar old over-damper piano which I upgraded when at about grade 6 level and it wouldn't repeat fast enough.
Life is a progression. It wasn't till I was almost retired and had available funds, that I had a very good piano. And - no, I don't need a piano of the calibre of the one I've got, it plays much better than me!!! But, some things we do for the enjoyment of it.
I started out in 1st grade, on perhaps the worlds crappiest spinet thing, an old Winter from the 1930s. It was so junk, that if you played too hard, the little pawls (probably not the correct name) would jump out of their tracks, so I got really good at lifting the lid and resetting them. But I played on. Good thing too, because my parents never did buy a new piano. If I'd given up just because I didn't have the most perfect piano, I guess I would have denied myself a lifetime of enjoyment. Aloha all.
Until I went to college I played on an Acrosonic spinet. This is certainly not a great piano but I never gave it any thought. When my parents gave me the Acrosonic I played on it for another 15 years. I think the overwhelming percentage of pianists play on very mediocre verticals and less often on very mediocre grands that are lucky to be tuned once a year and never voiced or regulated. Posters on PW, where most of the discussion is about either excellent or super excellent pianos, are not typical of most of those who play and enjoy playing the piano.
I started out in 1st grade, on perhaps the worlds crappiest spinet thing, an old Winter from the 1930s. It was so junk, that if you played too hard, the little pawls (probably not the correct name) would jump out of their tracks, so I got really good at lifting the lid and resetting them. But I played on. Good thing too, because my parents never did buy a new piano. If I'd given up just because I didn't have the most perfect piano, I guess I would have denied myself a lifetime of enjoyment. Aloha all.
Until I went to college I played on an Acrosonic spinet. This is certainly not a great piano but I never gave it any thought. When my parents gave me the Acrosonic I played on it for another 15 years. I think the overwhelming percentage of pianists play on very mediocre verticals and less often on very mediocre grands that are lucky to be tuned once a year and never voiced or regulated. Posters on PW, where most of the discussion is about either excellent or super excellent pianos, are not typical of most of those who play and enjoy playing the piano.
Very true! This of course does not mean we could not enjoy ourselves even more with something better.
I started out in 1st grade, on perhaps the worlds crappiest spinet thing, an old Winter from the 1930s. It was so junk, that if you played too hard, the little pawls (probably not the correct name) would jump out of their tracks, so I got really good at lifting the lid and resetting them. But I played on. Good thing too, because my parents never did buy a new piano. If I'd given up just because I didn't have the most perfect piano, I guess I would have denied myself a lifetime of enjoyment. Aloha all.
Until I went to college I played on an Acrosonic spinet. This is certainly not a great piano but I never gave it any thought. When my parents gave me the Acrosonic I played on it for another 15 years. I think the overwhelming percentage of pianists play on very mediocre verticals and less often on very mediocre grands that are lucky to be tuned once a year and never voiced or regulated. Posters on PW, where most of the discussion is about either excellent or super excellent pianos, are not typical of most of those who play and enjoy playing the piano.
Very true! This of course does not mean we could not enjoy ourselves even more with something better.
Definitely! I would have been nice not to have to imagine what I was playing could sound like on a good instrument. And, I do think a decent instrument helps to learn expressive playing.
This of course does not mean we could not enjoy ourselves even more with something better.
Definitely! I would have been nice not to have to imagine what I was playing could sound like on a good instrument. And, I do think a decent instrument helps to learn expressive playing.
Also stories like this say more about the people in question (i.e. good things) than about their starting pianos. I, too, have heard about quite advanced pianists who started and played for years on instruments that might have been better in the junk pile, yet learn they did. to all who were in that boat.
I can't even picture how three fingers would work. Seems like it would be awfully crowded unless you had very thin fingers! 
Going to try it with the proper 3 finger technique soon! 
And here I was thinking having a perfectly tuned instrument is a goal to aspire to - well for some, it's not!
(I'll still be bad but at least it will help a tad 😂)
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