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Not a baton twirler but... here's what Chopin would have been living with had he and his relationship with La Sand lasted 20 years longer.

Some friends of ours have a son who is in the marching band at a local university. Last week they had their "battle of the bands" extravaganza at the performing arts center there. We ran into the kid's father and asked him how it was, and he said the most impressive part was watching the baton-twirlers do their thing.

The good and bad in George Sand

There is no doubt that GS was an extraordinary woman. Her boldness of action and independence of mind were very unusual for the time. She had a great capacity for work, was capable of being very caring and generous. She attracted men well into middle age. She had courage and the ability to conceive passion. Her politics were unselfish in that, as a member of the landed gentry, she championed the common people.

I will never cease to admire her originality. She could so easily have been a downtrodden female slave like the majority of her fellow women of the time. Likewise I applaud her energy for work, and the way that she generally paid her own way in an era when women generally just lived off men.

HOWEVER
Her generosity did not prevent great meanness of spirit and selfish behaviour at times: it takes a certain type of hard heart to be able to launch into an affair with the doctor of one’s sick lover. It takes a positively steely cardiac muscle to abandon one’s long-term partner just at the point he is about to begin a prolonged death agony.

Her attraction was, I believe, largely due to her availability at a time when most women were not supposed to know about or enjoy sex let alone have intimate conversations with anyone (not even their own husbands). Any man meeting GS, even a physically unattractive man such as Michel de Bourges, knew he had a chance of unleashing some of his pent-up urges on her to put it crudely. He also knew that in so doing he’d also get well looked after and be amused.

Passion to George Sand was “easy come easy go”. Even Liszt and Marie d’Agoult were aghast at the number of men she managed to get through during the summer they stayed with her in the mid 30s. She had no staying power, which suggests a certain superficiality.

Politically, she did not have the capacity to think deeply and often made stupid mistakes. This lack of judgement also applied to other areas of life, such as being unable to realise that she was hopeless at writing plays. Her greatest error of judgement IMO was to take Chopin to Majorca. He never recovered.

As a mother, she spoiled her son and neglected her daughter. Not many mothers would throw a pregnant daughter out onto the streets.

The thing I like least about GS is her dishonesty. She lies to others and she deceives herself. Everyone is human and makes mistakes in life, but this lack of integrity would be unacceptable to me in anyone I called a friend. Obviously poor Chopin was blind to this facet until it was too late and he had become reliant on her.

Would she be famous today, were it not for Chopin? In France – probably. Elsewhere – almost certainly not. Her books are almost unreadable nowadays. Whereas Chopin’s music is as popular as ever.

maryrose,

You are very generous to share with us this profile of the famous...infamous?...George Sand. Not having read about her (other than in "The Great Pianists", this sketch is very enlightening. In many ways it is unfortunate that Chopin fell under the spell of this "could be" witch, but our good fortune that you help us to know her better.

Maybe Ragnhild has been here. Be sure to read the whole article. It tells the strange tale of Chopin's canape.

http://www.mic.no/mic.nsf/printstory/art2002092610523913169604

Yes, I have been there !

My mother tells that first time my brother and sister went inside and I (about 2,5 years old) had to wait outside because I was the kind of child that just had to figure out how things work...
And so I declared "When I get big I will go into the orange house !"

Later I have played a few notes of Mozart on the hammerklavier, but I have not tried Chopin's sofa. The cast of Chopin's hand fascinated me though, it was so small...

I studied in Trondheim and our choir had a concert in the barn of Ringve singing Grieg's 4 psalms.

Next year I hope to take my children to the museum, they have never been to Trondheim so they have to see Norway's only cathedral also.

As for George Sand, I can not help thinking she was kind of brave - choosing to be intellectual, seductive and even selfish in a world where women were supposed to be "men's delights" only .

How often do we accuse a man for being selfish ?


Ragnhild

Ragnhild,

Please forgive me for not seeing this shortly after you posted it in the December Piano Bar

Thank you for your kind words, but With the intent to improve my interpretation of this piece, could you please elaborate on this comment:

"maybe I miss a little desperation (that is only IMO)."

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Ragnhild:

Lisztener . Your Moonlight is peaceful and beautiful, maybe I miss a little desperation (that is only IMO). I am sure you will do a great job with the slow movement of the Pathetique. (and then the Rondo )
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I don't understand what you mean, or how to make it sound desperate.

Thank you for commenting.

Lisztener :

I do not think I can give you advice on the first part of the Moonlight. But when I listen to the 1. page (1. movement) of the Pathetique, my first feeling or thought is despair. I think Moonlight has some of it too.

I have never worked properly and with a teacher on the Moonlight 1. movement. It is though, the only piece I have ever played on a grand - and despair was also then my feeling (might have had other reasons.... )

The repeated G#'s (dotted 1/8 + 1/16 + dotted 1/2)
- sometimes also G natural and B - played first in RH then in LH just gives me a feeling of desperate trying or maybe kind of a prayer. But these things are so subjective and you will have to bring your own understanding and emotions to it.

Now we have to be careful not to turn this into a "totally devoted to Beethoven" thread

But Hershey, are you there ?
Maybe you can teach us a little about Beethoven and despair ??

Ragnhild

Yes, is Hershey there? I have another non musical Chopin question. How did you research Chopin's wardrobe and what did you find out? Did any of Chopin's garments survive?

Ragnhild,

I understand and have felt the same emotion on occasion.

Thank you,

Lisztener

I am concerned about Kathleen. Three or four days ago she had to return from holiday with a bad back - and she hasn't popped in for a while. That's not like her. Kasha, if you are reading this but not able to write, please take care and know that we are thinking about you and wishing you a quick recovery! I am sure that all the Chopin fans on this forum would join me in that.

On the other hand, Hershey's not been around for about the same length of time. Now could they perhaps have ridden off together into the sunset I wonder....

Hershey is young enough to be my son!! In fact, I was hoping to adopt him.

But thanks, MaryRose, for the words of concern.

I'm OK. Just a little lazy and trying to do some catch up with my music.

BTW, I liked your editorial on Sand. Yikes, that picture. Imagine the pair together...kind of like that "Jack Sprat and his wife" nursery rhyme.

While she did have a few (?) good qualities, I just can't forget/forgive those nasty ones.

The only thing I will give her any credit for (if that's the correct word) is taking care of our hero for those years. I believe she did the best she knew how, at least for the first 6 years or so. And he was happy for most of that time, and that's all that counts!

I still wish Jane Stirling would have been around much sooner.

Your quiz is wickedly difficult. I got one, so far....

Best to all,
Kathleen

Um...back again - sorry for not being around - this unpacking thing really gets the best of you... and god forbid you should head to Clignancourt (the Marche aux Puces - or Flea Market...) you're DONE FOR! And that's where I've been living. Gosh, Paris is fun...at any rate, now more or less properly installed, so first thing's first...

Getting "personal," eh??? (He says oh so slyly - with regard to riding off into the sunset with older women, see above post...) well, because the world knows, and it has been public news for quite a while, I am married to a wonderful brilliant and tremendous woman who is twenty years my senior - and we have been married for eleven years...she is the Right Honourable Kim Campbell, former Prime Minister of Canada (the only woman), former Minister of National Defence (the first woman on NATO) and the first woman Attorney General and Justice Minister of the country...needless to say - she is inifinitely more interesting than I am, and plays piano (and cello!!!!) remarkably well - sings (every last work of Gilbert and Sullivan, not to mention a vast knowledge of operatic repertoire) and so on, and so forth. Quite frankly, I am sort of dull, compared... so - going off into the sunset has nothing to do with age dear Kasha! Sadly, bad backs do have everything to do with age - and believe me, at 38, I kvetch a whole lot myself. The running around the stage and six hours a day of piano, can really do you in over years... but I am careful - as must you all be...

now to answer questions...let's scroll up and see...ok...with regard to C#- the Moonlight... despair is good, but approaching it techincally first is better...so, first things first - take away the melody, and place the bass notes carefully, following the harmonic progression. HEAR where you are, and where you are going to. Don't just play notes - but understand from an auditory point of view what the voice leading is. then: practice the "andante" movement... the "walking..." I prefer not too slow, evenly, and also with a very "impressionistic" sound. The pedals are a big deal here - and remember, our pedals and pedalling are not like Beethoven's. We have to compensate. I have a feeling he was looking for a cushion of sound, upon which to place the heartbeats. I don't quite think despair - but I do think heart beats - rather irregular, and crying - but the tone must be a pleading absolue legato tone. (For this, there is no technical explanation - you must use your ears - and adapt as you see fit, but be properly rhythmic, though think "bowing" -or singing - as on the cello, as opposed to pushing notes in time - Everyone will do something different...) Follow through with the movement of the piece - ie: keep it moving. Don't get stuck in it. Always use an impressionistic sound, always have your melody speak as a person accompanied by the andante motion, and always play in tempo, and don't bend any rubati so out of shape that the movement (ie: motion) of the piece changes or is unrecognizeable... this is a place to begin... and as always listen, listen, listen... three different things: Bass rooting our harmonies... inner andante, and then upper register, speech - heart.

Now as to Frycek's wardrobe question...mainly - we just colorized the few photos we had of him, understood that he clearly did not like lots of color (he writes orders to Fontana in his letters - black, or black with some embroidery, blue, dark...) of course we had to liven it up for the stage, after all, it is a fantasia and it must "pop" under lights...and then of course historical reference to traditional late 1840's garb - somewhat empire fashion - but again, designed for the stage to give the "impression." The whole thing is an illusion - sometimes not interpreting something can make it rather dull.

As for George Sand - what can I say - I am now looking out at her window - meters from my nose - looking at her door - knowing that she came in and out for a long time from there - at the time when she let him go... knowing that he would have come to the Odeon - which is just up the street - and knowing that the street looks more or less exactly as it did - knowing that my flat was here, and particularly knowing that besides modern amenities, the decor of my flat, is the same as it was when Chopin was in the neighborhood, because it has been meticulously restored to its origial state (1780's onward...) and funnily enough - my piano arrived on Thursday - and I have been playing in my salon, and I feel as if there is a spirit around watching (totally projected, but fun all the same) and I am playing even more delicately, more internally, not more sadly, but more "easily..." plus facilement... as he would say... and there is strange freedom to playing Chopin (and Debussy et al) in the neighborhood where so much of it was written...

My relative was in for the weekend, we popped into the Louvre (my, how I love saying that) and once again, i visited with the Delacroix Chopin and self portrait... side by side, just about... and this time, i stood very close to the chopin and imagined him in the room, at the pianino, as Delacroix painted, paris, 1838... and Delacroix's last home, where the dual painting (Chopin/Sand) was discovered, and which is now the Delacroix museum...) is just a few blocks away... ah, I so love art and artists!!!

Frycek mentioned that he/she would help posting some images, so I shall send them along for your amusement...

best till next time!

Hersh

Hershey's Pictures:

The arrival of M., Chopin to teach his lesson, having just seen
George Sand for the last time on the stairs of the Marliani Residence
at Square D'Orleans.



At Chopin's actual piano (the one he had in Paris in 1848...at the
Square D'Orleans...) now in the CHopin Society in Warsaw... I was
being filmed on this day at the instrument.



My huge fingers on Chopin's tiny delicate keys... the piano itself is
so much smaller than anything we are used to!



Shot at Nohant, in the salon at George Sand's piano, (not there when
Chopin was there, but did arrive in '67, I think...) nevertheless, it
is on the spot where Chopin would have premiered so many of his works
composed there, or just upstairs.



In M. Chopin, Chopin's arrival in Vienna - playing la Ci Darem La
Mano at the Imperial and Royal Opera House.



The really lousy cough in his "cell" in majorca, with the Candle that
he writes about...



In some dream, or other...



in moving images of Maria Wodzinska, filmed at Lazienki park
in Warsaw - sort of holographic projections that emerge from the
second mvt. of the e minor concerto...

WOW and WOW again!

Those photos are absolutely gorgeous. Thank you Frycek (Hersh, she is a female) for getting them on the forum and thanks to Hersh for making them available to us.

Now the rest of the "group" can see why Hersh is such a remarkable personification of Chopin. It's spooky.

Hersh: Is there ever, ever a chance of M. Chopin being made into a DVD?? I know someone said it was costly to do this. But, gosh, so many people would buy it. And, why couldn't someone just use a camcorder (or such type of simple equipment) to do this? I HAVE to SEE your performance. Listening to it is great but seeing it would be a total life-changing experience for me. And I am not exaggerating.

Your wife sounds as if she may have come from another planet. All her talent, intelligence and wisdom (in chosing you as a husband, for one thing) are surreal. How fortunate you both are, but I'm certain you have both worked extremely hard. Now living in Paris and seeing all those magnificient places is a great reward for all of your labor (of love).

Congratulations and continued success to you both.

Now, I HAVE to put up the Christmas tree before Christmas is over.

Regards,
Kathleen

Hershey and Frycek - thanks so much for the pictures. What a wonderful Christmas present to us all on the forum.

The thing that surprised me most was the tiny-ness of Chopin's piano. I knew that they had got bigger but I didn't realise it was by that much. Virtuosi today must have an even harder time of reaching all the notes; but then again, it must have been harder to make a "big" sound in the mid C19th.

Love to all you Chopinophiles on a chilly December day here near London.

So true, MaryRose. Of course, Chopin wasn't concerned with making a big sound. However, it might explain why Liszt practiced 10-12 hours a day.

Oh, I was reading about Rubinstein yesterday. Did you know he divorced his wife when he was 90 and married his secretary? He died at 95. His only regret that he didn't get a chance to smoke all the great cigars and taste all the fine wines he had hoped to. He had very large hands, could reach from a C to a G - a 12th. And, once he made it, he didn't have to practice much, often just read the score for a couple of hours.

His only unpleasant times were those terrible minutes of stage fright, which he experienced right to the end. Imagine that.

Kathleen

Another thing about pianos of Chopin's time, that must have made a considerable difference to the sound of his (and others') works: they were tuned differently. They didn't have equal temperament. Hence each key would sound different from all the others, and have a special character of its own.

Maybe that is why Chopin favoured some keys and seemed to dislike others. The one he used most was A flat and the one he used least was D minor.

Kathleen - yes I did know that about Rubinstein's late marriage. It's the one thing I don't like about him. Maybe Alzehiemer's was setting in? What huge hands. I didn't realise they were quite that big. I wish mine were a bit bigger. Maybe stage fright is necessary to get that "edge", that adrenalin flowing?

I didn't realize that the pianos of Chopin's time were still tuned differently--I guess I thought that went away after Bach's time and all his work on the Well-Tempered Clavier. I have heard many times that we can't play like Chopin because our piano is so different from his, but I didn't understand what that meant. Can anyone fill me in on the other differences?

Friday night is my adult piano recital where I will play Chopin's Nocturne 55/1. I have been playing this piece since May and feel I know it inside and out, but I still worry that I won't be able to properly express the beauty of it to the other people there. Does anyone have suggestions about how to prepare for a public performance of a piece with such feeling like so many of Chopin's? It almost seems like it needs to be played alone to be in the proper atmosphere.

Nancy

Nancy, when Bach wrote the WTC he was celebrating what was then a modern form of tuning. For three centuries, up until 1700ish, "meantone" had been prevalent. This meant that some intervals were so dissonant as to be unusable so it was quite restrictive. "Well temperament" is where all keys/intervals are usable but some are more dissonant than others, giving them a particular character. This lasted from 1700 to around 1880.

In the late C19th we got "equal temperament" which most people still use today: dissonance is spread equally among the intervals and no one key is more acceptable than another. This means that we have got rid of the "worst" but also got rid of the "best" sounding keys, giving an overall uniformity (and comparative blandness). I hope I've made this clear - I don't feel very eloquent tonight!

I have never heard Chopin played in any form of well temperament - I imagine he was so sensitive to such things that he'd have used the different characters of the keys to the full. One day I would like to own a well-tempered Pleyel piano. The other day I saw a Pleyel 1845 Pianino for sale - like the second piano that Chopin used during lessons. If only....

Good luck with your Nocturne on Friday. I'm afraid I have no advice as I just wouldn't be able to play Chopin in front of a crowd. His music is too personal for me. Just pretend you are alone, maybe? Do you have a good imagination? Let us know how you get on