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I think these two sentences are meant to be read together :

I believe Chopin's music is emotional rather than religious.
About Chopin's beliefs I know nothing.

Ragnhild

About the two sentences- you're probably right. And I doubt there is any conscious religious expression in Chopin's compositions. I believe the inclusion of the "Jesus Lullaby" in the first schrezo (an island of calm in a very skittish composition) is intended as a symbol of childhood security and nostalgia rather than a manifestation of religious feeling. According to George Sand, Chopin was a believing, very orthodox but publicly non practicing Catholic. He made a deathbed confession and received the last rites but most of the religious utterances credited to him at the time were most probably after the fact wishful thinking by his confessor a Polish priest who had been a childhood friend. What Chopin did in private was another matter. When Chopin was unwell his servant, Jan, was in the habit keeping a covert eye on him, concerned that he might faint and injure himself. According to Jan, Chopin secretly knealt beside his bed like a child and prayed. Liszt, who probably knew Chopin better than Chopin would've liked or credited, referred to him "as a man of prayer." One thing Liszt did to alienate Chopin was try to talk about spiritual matters with him, something Liszt did easily, and Chopin could not do at all.

This is to lovechopintoomuch:

After seeing the picture of the young Chopin and reading this :
I think I am falling in love too

Ragnhild

This is really going to sound off the wall, but I could never explain why I love Chopin's music so and how it affects me. There is just something about it that defies description (at least with words I can bring to mind).

When I read that sentence about the metaphysical, (and I had to look up the word), I found just what I was looking for.

His music is supernatural. It does seem of this world.

To quote Jane Stirling "He wasn't like the others."

Thanks, Frycek, for your input on that article. I believe Chopin was, like his music, undefinable.

And I just knew you were going to post that picture.

Kathleen

Wonderful quote by Liszt. I think we can all guess to whom he is referring. He never forgave George Sand for Chopin.

Wow! That's pretty rought stuff. But from what I've read of her, she was completely capable of being as evil as they come.

What I can't understand is how Chopin could have been attracted to her. I know it had to do with her being the care-giver, and he not having to worry about the mundane things in life, like buying food and paying rent.

But even after the break-up, he was still broken-hearted. Why? When she was such a liar and so vindictive? What was it about Chopin that he could go on loving a woman like that? Was it pure gratitude, or did he miss her as one would miss a sister (or mother?). Did he feel abandoned?

He "saw through" everyone else, but not her. Why?

Kathleen

I think he did see through many layers of her. I think he understood her better than Liszt and better than she did herself. I think he easily could have reconciled with her in healthier circumstances, but his dignity would not permit that he present himself as an emotional beggar crawling home only to die. I believe he found the generosity of spirit to spare her that decision, knowing that loyalty to her self image would oblige her to take him back as a "patient" if not as a man. Even dying he would not be had back on sufferance.

The University of Chicago has over 400 first and early editions of Chopin's music to download for free here:


http://chopin.lib.uchicago.edu/home.html


Mel

Thanks, Mel. Great site.

Kathleen

Oh, just wanted to tell you about a lovely and so simple and short composition by Chopin called Largo in EfMajor. It's wonderful!! It's played by Valerie Lloyd Watts.

I think, as simple as it sounds, it speaks volumes about the genius of this man.

Largo in EbMajor

Kathleen

Nice link, Mel, the quality of the pictures is amazing !

The Largo is just so sad (It is morning and working hours and I should not be crying...)

Another sad thing:
Yesteday I went to the biggest record store in the district hoping they could help me to order a recording of the Chopin Nocturnes
(I am just not so good at this buying on the internet)
They have a small classical shelf, there were labels for Beethoven and Mozart and even Faure, but not Chopin and no cd's with any of his music.
So I had to ask, and the youth behind the desk asked me how to spell Chopin, checked his pc and said sorry, I can not help you.

OK, I know you can get anything on the web, but then you have to know what to ask for, I am afraid we have a generation that has hardly. heard of Chopin

Ragnhild

That is REALLY SAD! But not surprising.

Kathleen

Just me again, bumping old Fred up to the first page.

Yesterday, as I was trying to figure out my new scanner (still haven't got it down right yet ), but I was listening to his preludes. Once again I was swept away with the beauty of his 25/1. I remember hearing it (perhaps the first time) while watching the Winter Olympics many years ago, the figure skating competition. Seeing the young woman on skates gliding to that lovely, breath-taking melody, was something I'll never forget.

Kathleen

Just me again, bumping old Fred up to the first page.

Yesterday, as I was trying to figure out my new scanner (still haven't got it down right yet ), but I was listening to his preludes. Once again I was swept away with the beauty of his 25/1. I remember hearing it (perhaps the first time) while watching the Winter Olympics many years ago, the figure skating competition. Seeing the young woman on skates gliding to that lovely, breath-taking melody, was something I'll never forget.

Kathleen

I think this site is going to get a lot more action. We've been doing a lot of posting about Chopin, in general, on the Nocturne site.

However, because it is a study group and should be mostly devoted to questions, concerns suggestions, etc. about the 55.1, it would probably be more suitable for us to use this thread for anything relating to Chopin, the man, his life, or his music.

It could be a question (we do have a resident expert on campus) or observations or remarks, pictures (Frycek never seems to run out of these. What does she get them? )whatever. Things we've read or concerts we've attended...

We have 5 pages of thread already. This is very encouraging.

I know I'm a nut for Chopin, but I make no apologies for it. As one gets older, one realizes that there are very few things in life that can provide real and lasting pleasure. All that material stuff that we thought we had to have...the big house, the best car, designer clothes, etc., they all mean nothing in the end. They're just "stuff." George Carlin (I know he can be X-rated, but he is funny) has a routine he does on "stuff." It's hilarious.

And I do know there are many, many other great composers out there. Many of them are my favorites. I do encourage anyone who has a passion for one of them, to start a thread like this one. It can be very interesting.

Well, that's it.

Regards to all,
Kathleen

When I thought that this site was going to get more action, I didn't think that I was the one to be doing it.

I don't mind one bit. I could talk and write about Chopin all day if someone didn't shut me up.

I don't know if you think this is interesting, but I was rather intrigued by this essay by Authur Hutchings about Chopin and the meaning and the power of his music.

****************
For Chopin's beneficiaries his music is certainly like a second diary more interesting that the one he kept in his pocket or drawer, and it may prove to be his real diary and to be unintenionally deceptive. Being the diary of his unconscious, his music may show the hidden and less-harnessed part of his personality reacting against the declared aspirations of his time and place, and contradicting sentiments known to have come from his lips and to have been implicit in his public behavior.

Musical expression reveals the unconscious to an extent neither possible nor permissible in verbal expression, and therefore music should not be judged according to it susceptibiility to verbal description.

Plato was the first to describe a human's dual character, consicious and unconscious, which he likened to the harnessing together of two horses, one docile and one wild.

During movements called "romantic", artists tend to reveal the "wild horse" to the delight of the young, the adventurous and the less tame spirits of society. Someone defined one element of romantic as the power to transport us mentally in time or space. Mild or passionate, these yearnings betoken discontent with present circumstances that is quickly relegated to the unconscious so that daily duty may be performed in disciplined if sometimes insincere contentment. Whatever the pull between the conscious and the unconscious, the daily control does not necessarily hide the romantic rebellion.

What is hidden in us may prove as dark and primitive when it is evoked by the gentle melancholy of Chopin (although Chopin is not by any means an entirely gentle artist).

**************

The above is indeed put in very stilted language, but I think the message comes across.

Chopin hid his true feelings (that other part of his "dual character") from society, friends, etc. He "played the part" expected of him. Pretty much what we all have to do. He did this in order to survive, pretty much what we all do.

But that other part of him was in deep conflict with the demands of this outter world. And, because he could not or would not express his discontent with words, he did so with his music.

And, his music reveals his true self, his complete self. He could and was often happy and gay and much of his music shows this. But there was a very deep resentment, anger and rage that also boiled within. And a lot of his music shows this also.

O.K. So why are some of us passionate about Chopin and others can take him or leave him. And still others can't stand him.

I think it's the power of his music to touch what we have hidden and to allow us to bring it out in the open, if only for a few hours, here and there, once in while. I think it "grants us permission" to express (without words) what we truly think and feel. His music says what we wish we could say, if we knew how and if we weren't afraid to say it. His music is our voice.

There was a song popular quite a few years ago called: His Is the Only Music that Makes Me Dance."

That sort of sums it up, for me.

Now...is there anyone out there?? Any comments would be appreciated and valued.


Kathleen

The plumpest looking I've seen Chopin, a portrait that apparently dates from the short time early on when he wore sidewhiskers. I think it's probably just a very bad portrait. His hair is way too dark, his features seem too small, hie forehead too high, and his cheeks too full. (I think the painter had trouble with his shadows. It looks the same problem a photographer has when the light is to bright full on and the facial bone structure loses its definition from lack of shadow.) And what's with that odd garment with the fur collar?

There is no way that this picture is a portrait of Chopin.

It doesn't even come close to resembling him. I think every time someone find a dusty picture in their attic, they think it's him. Much like the rumor that he died in just about every princess's arms.

Kathleen

Even if I am not the most devoted at the forum, just to tell that Fryderyk is not forgotten:

I did not have any Chopin recordings other than his sonatas, but yesterday this one arrived :



The first introduction I had to Chopins music as a child was an LP with Askenase playing Mazurkas, Nocturnes, Waltzes....
Still I find his playing a very "natural" Chopin without "too much" of anything.
I also like that Askenase learned piano playing from his mother who's teacher had been one of Chopins students.

I was surprised that the Etudes were not in this collection. Maybe Askenase did not play them ? Who has recorded the Etudes ?

Ragnhild