Piano World Home Page Forums Our Most Popular Forums Pianist Corner FAQ - Pianist Corner The Left Hand of the Pathetique

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OK ladies and gents ... I'll copy and paste each of the above comments ... MY comments will be in the body of each.

I'll try to be brief ... although that's not in my nature ... so we'll see what eventuates.

I apologize in advance to those contributors who feel offended by my comments ... (unfortunately Tobias Matthay has a lot to answer for ... still creating havoc after a century of pianists developing bad and injurious habits)

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One of the most frequently asked questions here regards the measured LH tremolo that accompanies the main theme of Beethoven's "Pathetique" sonata.

So, here are my suggestions for tackling this infamous accompaniment:

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I've not had time to scour the archives here to see just how many have problems with this sonata ... I'll take ur word for it ... but there are numerous similar examples ... but this is as good as any for ME to start commenting on
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First, the major joints need to be free of tension. This means the shoulder, elbow, and wrist. Keep in mind that tension is cumulative,
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I cannot disagree with the basic statement ... HOWEVER - an understanding of the physiology is imperative ... it is how we USE the joints u mention that is critical ... we MUST use our body in the most natural way ... use the "joints" in a fashion that they were designed for! EXAMPLE ... the elbow is but a HINGE ... it is not to be used in any other way! The wrist must NEVER be considered as a joint of rotation ... more on that later. I'm sure many of you have heard the phrase "forearm rotation" - a good recipe for pain, failure and injury!
The other issue here is HOW to minimize tension ... i say MINIMIZE because without SOME tension we would have spaghetti like limbs incapable of precise and controlled (both conscious and learned / memorized) movements.
Just saying ... "be free of tension" is not very useful. One would need to be observed by an expert so the particular problem with a particular student can be analyzed
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so I'd suggest practicing this section after you're warmed-up or have taken a short break, not after you've already been playing for an hour straight.
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WHY ?????? There should be no difference whether you've been playing for 6 minutes or 6 hours (NOTE - when I mention "hours" of practice ... i'm assuming that an advanced pianist has built up to that amount of practice over YEARS and is probably following a schedule SOMETHING like 45 minutes playing ... 15 minutes break ... 45 minutes playing etc etc etc
((There can be an issue of lactic acid build up during / after extended performance of "big" repertoire ... there are ways to minimize this ... we'll leave that for another day))
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Try varying the height of your wrist and the height of the bench.
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NEVER, NEVER, NEVER vary the height of the bench ... your seating position and HEIGHt is ABSOLUTELY CRITICAL ... once it is correct you must ALWAYS ALWAYS ALWAYS use the SAME HEIGHT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
This is basic and CRITICAL ... I will often spend an hour EXPLAINING and ESTABLISHING seat hight for a new student .......... it is ONE OF THE MOST CRITICAL FOUNDATIONS WHICH MUST BE CORRECT ... i cannot emphasize this enough ((with a young student who is growing ... you must continually asses and adjust))
AND ... i am talking about PRECISE seat heat ... to within half a centimeter
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Also, avoid extremes - your wrist should not be concave or overly convex (I prefer a slightly raised wrist.)
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Good point ... HOWEVER ... you must understand WHY ... it's no good just saying the above as there are small physiological differences between individuals ... and this determines the most best approach for each individual ... ALSO COMES BACK TO SEAT HEIGHT ((which can be affected by a variety of reasons ... think for a moment ... 2 pianists are both 5'10" in height ... one has a long body and one a short body ... both have different length arms and legs!!!! THEREFORE the both must sit at DIFFERENT HEIGHTS ... and THIS will have a direct bearing on the angle of the forearm in relation to the horizontal ... THIS will have bearing on the height of the wrist ... THIS WILL HAVE BEARING ON THE FREEDOM OF FINGERS TO WORK IN A NATURAL AND EFFECTIVE MANNER ...
It;s not a simple subject ... there is "no one size fits all" but it is a CRITICAL PART OF THE FOUNDATIONS OF PIABO PLYING .... sadly most often not understood and in the main ... overlooked out of ignorance.
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Another interesting way to practice is to turn your bench and your body about 60 degrees to the right. This will keep your left elbow away from your body in a more natural position.
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Sorry mate ... but that is a TRULY FRIGHTENING THOUGHT ... practice sitting at the piano in an asymmetrical way????? destroy the "memory" of good habits????? Sorry ... i just don;t get it ... and i am 100% sure that it would be only SLIGHTLY detrimental at best ... CERTAINLY no good can come of it ... I think ur mistaken about wanting to have ur elbow AWAY from ur body ... the MOST NATURAL way to see where EACH INDIVIDUAL should have there "relaxed" elbow is to just stand up and let ur arms hang ... ... it differs with individuals ... for a skinny person with narrow shoulders ... their elbows will gently touch their body ... certainly NOT "away" from their body ... for a muscular person with broad shoulders ... yes ... the elbows will be several inches away from their body ... for most ... almost touching will be most natural .......... i'm just a bit scared that these "suggestions" you make are only confusing and WRONG ... i'll rephrase ... sorry ... i'm NOT just a bit scared ... i am suret that you should NOT be spreading such erroneous and uninformed ideas re piano plying ... sorry
to anyone who follows these ides ... u will most certainly fail and risk PERMANENT injury
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Once you've got the hang of the passage in this position, it'll be easier to transfer that feeling to your regular position.
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RUBBISH ... try it and waste ur time ... or maybe u will be lucky and experience a short term placebo effect ...
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Visualize two things - imagine your left arm is a garden hose and that the sound is the water. For the sound to flow freely out of your hands, there can't be any kinks in the hose. As you practice, feel for those kinks and free them up when they happen.
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My arm is a garden hose and sound is running water ... hmmmmm OK mate ... i'm sure ur students appreciate the symbolism ... ... ... but for me ... i'd rather UNDERSTAND the issues at play ... EXPLAIN the issues ... and DEMONSTRATE solutions which are SAFE AND EFFECTIVE !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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One more bit of visualization that helps - imagine a light breeze passing through the crook of your elbow and through your armpit. Tension in those two joints spells disaster, so keep them well ventilated!
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a breeze flowing through my armpit ... ... okkkkkkkkkkk ... no comment - i NEED A BREAK !!!!!!!!!!!!!!

more to follow in the next day or so
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Practice on doorknobs and salt shakers. Every time you open a door, use your left hand and rattle the knob a bit. Every time you add salt to your food, sprinkle it on with your left hand.
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Oh ... nearly missed this last little "gem" ... very natural thing to do - twisting doorknobs!!!!!!!! a VERY VERY quick way to cause permanent injury .....!!!! just try twisting a doorknob backwards and forward RAPIDLY (rattle it like a tremolo!!!) for 30 seconds or so ... I REST MY CASE!!!
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apologies for spelling and grammatical errors - i;m never inclined to reread and correct
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ian mac

that doorknob thing is funny!

Question: why is 'forearm rotation' a problem? what on earth i could do if i want to rotate my hand to a different direction? do you mean hands have to be totally flat (except up/down wrist motion as you mentioned), which certainly is impossible when playing anything?

i'm just trying to understand what you imply on this. thanks for your post!

I should mention that this seating arrangement is for LH only practice. Obviously it's harmful for the RH! Also, keep in mind the basic physiological principles you've already admonished me for ignoring - the arm is naturally positioned so that forearm rotation is more easily accomplished with the arm slightly away from the torso and not directly in front of you.

When you stand and let your arms hang, your arm is to the *side*, not in front. My suggestion of turning your body keeps your arm in a more natural position - to the side of your body.

Don't worry, it's 100% physiologically sound. I'm quite familiar with physiological principles.

Also, with respect to varying the bench height, I mean to vary it so that you can find the optimal height for your body. Of course you'd stay with the optimal height once you've found it.

Something else you said was incorrect, though. The height of the person doesn't matter at all. The only thing that determines bench height is the level of the elbow as compared to the level of the keyboard. Absolutely nothing else matters. And there is no best height - excellent and comfortable players exist whose elbows are both slightly below and above the keyboard level, but generally speaking, most people are more comfortable slightly above.

Hope that clarifies some of my ideas. Thanks!

This is a fairly common topic of discussion. There is some controversy on the use of the word rotation, because none of the joints themselves actually rotate. The elbow is, as Mac has suggested, just a hinge. (The wrist doesn't rotate either. Only the rotator cuff in the shoulder rotates, but that's not a joint that comes into play in our current context.)

However, the end result feels like the forearm and hand rotate or rock back and forth, and while the vocabulary doesn't really describe in an explicit way what's going on, it does "do the trick" with most students.

ahhhh ... so easy to stir you guys up

have a great day

i'm bored with this site now ... think i'll go fishing ... or maybe a road trip on my HOG for a few days ... or ... hmmm maybe sit at home and listen to some Scarlatti and Liszt ... they go so well together

i might return to this board one day ... never can tell

if anyone is experiencing the SLIGHTEST pain when playing ... PLEASE STOP !!!!!!!!!!!! IMMEDIATELY !!!!!!!!!!

i REALLY REALLY REALLY get sooooo sick and tired and sad with SOOOOOOO many young pianists fighting AGAINST their body because stupid ill informed "teachers" tell / show them dangerous techniques

it is ABSOLUTELY CRIMINAL how many young pianists at Julliard, Manhattan and Beijing are taking DRUGS ... REGULARLY

SUCH DRUGS AS CORTISONE TO MASK SYMPTOMS FROM INJURY AND BETA BLOCKERS BECAUSE THEY ARE NOT PSYCHOLOGICALLY SUITED TO PERFORM

I HAVE PERSONAL KNOWLEDGE OF THAT ... AND IT'S A SIGNIFIANT PERCENTAGE ... OBVIOUSLY I CANNOT QUOTE AN ACCURATE % ... BUT I WOULD BE CERTAIN IT IS IN EXCESS OF 50% .... TRULY FRIGHTENING

I HAVE PERSONALLY HAD PIANISTS FROM THOSE 3 INSTITUTIONS AND EVERY UNIVERSITY / CONSERVATORIUM IN AUSTRALIA COME TO ME FOR HELP WITH INJURY ... MOST IN TEARS

teachers ... i like that word ,,, but i guess Professor or Doctor or whatever sounds a lot more impressive ??? hmmmmmm???

TECHNIQUE is not understood by many ... in fact MOST college / uni famous professors haven't got a clue .... TECHNIQUE is taught to YOUNG people .... it should all be in place by age 12 or so ... improved for the next couple of years ... then it's all done ... just a matter of learning how to USE your technique

Sorry I came a little late to this party. What are your suggestions for tackling this passage? I only see refutations of others' suggestions.

That was helpful.

"""Something else you said was incorrect, though. The height of the person doesn't matter at all. The only thing that determines bench height is the level of the elbow as compared to the level of the keyboard. Absolutely nothing else matters. And there is no best height - excellent and comfortable players exist whose elbows are both slightly below and above the keyboard level, but generally speaking, most people are more comfortable slightly above."""

the height of a person and the "build" of a person does matter ... eg - long body ... short body ... long upper arms etc etc ... this DIRECTLY affects the seating height

BUT ... I THINK WE ARE BOTH ON THE SAME PAGE HERE ... I LIKE SOME ASPECTS OF UR EXPLANATION BETTER THAN MINE ... i think we are both trying to get pianists to sit at a height which ensure the forearm is "" more or less"" horizontal ... of course exceptions abound (Arrau, Gould)

the critical thing is that if u sit too low ... then there is a tendency to raise the shoulders ... creates undue tension ... and the reverse creates slouching and no proper foundation to build on and often low elbows , dropped wrists etc etc etc

That's it? Use the body in a natural way, use the elbow as a hinge, keep the bench at the exact correct height, determine how far your elbow hangs naturally from your body, and you will be able to play this left hand passage? Sorry, Mac777, this all seems very vague and general to me. I'm having a hard time believing that's all there is to it.

By the way, I don't appreciate your condescending tone here and the rather cowardly way you chose to exit this thread. If you have something to share, share it, if you disagree, disagree, but I think everyone posting here does so because they believe they are offering helpful advice. There are ways of disagreeing in a respectful way, and I think all the people who have posted here deserve respect. Nothing wrong with refuting other's ideas, but what exactly do you offer instead? (That's a rhetorical question - truthfully you've lost my interest in what you have to say).

Thanks, Kriesler! i see your point. what you're saying is that instead of actually rotate forearm, you actually lift elbow which enable the hand rotate to a different direction from the body. it makes sense, and i do remember that my teacher told me the exactly same thing when playing scale (RH ascending).

it's too bad that Mac is getting bored to explain anything further.

"""JerryS88
Full Member
Member # 16113

Icon 1 posted 13 January, 2008 05:59 PM Profile for JerryS88 Send New Private Message Edit/Delete Post Reply With Quote That's it? Use the body in a natural way, use the elbow as a hinge, keep the bench at the exact correct height, determine how far your elbow hangs naturally from your body, and you will be able to play this left hand passage? Sorry, Mac777, this all seems very vague and general to me. I'm having a hard time believing that's all there is to it.

By the way, I don't appreciate your condescending tone here and the rather cowardly way you chose to exit this thread. If you have something to share, share it, if you disagree, disagree, but I think everyone posting here does so because they believe they are offering helpful advice. There are ways of disagreeing in a respectful way, and I think all the people who have posted here deserve respect. Nothing wrong with refuting other's ideas, but what exactly do you offer instead? (That's a rhetorical question - truthfully you've lost my interest in what you have to say)."""

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ahhh ... i'm not a very giving person

$500 an hour and i can show u ... then u too can have the effortless technique to play some MUSIC

with some business sense ... you too can be in demand at retire at age 50 odd to go fishing

"""JerryS88
Full Member
Member # 16113

Icon 1 posted 13 January, 2008 05:59 PM Profile for JerryS88 Send New Private Message Edit/Delete Post Reply With Quote That's it? Use the body in a natural way, use the elbow as a hinge, keep the bench at the exact correct height, determine how far your elbow hangs naturally from your body, and you will be able to play this left hand passage? Sorry, Mac777, this all seems very vague and general to me. I'm having a hard time believing that's all there is to it.

By the way, I don't appreciate your condescending tone here and the rather cowardly way you chose to exit this thread. If you have something to share, share it, if you disagree, disagree, but I think everyone posting here does so because they believe they are offering helpful advice. There are ways of disagreeing in a respectful way, and I think all the people who have posted here deserve respect. Nothing wrong with refuting other's ideas, but what exactly do you offer instead? (That's a rhetorical question - truthfully you've lost my interest in what you have to say)."""

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ahhh ... i'm not a very giving person

$500 an hour and i can SHOW u ... then u too can have the effortless technique to play some MUSIC

... far too many "academics " trying to explain MUSIC and piano playing through the written word ... it's a DOING thing

with some business sense ... you too can be in demand and retire at age 50 odd to go fishing

""That's it? Use the body in a natural way, use the elbow as a hinge, keep the bench at the exact correct height, determine how far your elbow hangs naturally from your body, and you will be able to play this left hand passage?""

you obviously did not read my first post on this thread very carefully

i said i would work my way through the entire thread ... EVERY comment so far is just a result of the first ill informed contribution i read here ....

HUNDREDS or common errors to address if i had the inclination

and try MOVING ur fingers !!!!!!!!!

rather than some spastic gyrations with ur forearm

I thought you were gonna go fishing?

Dear Mac777

Please go fishing. Whilst there, please reflect a little on the way you come across.

It is rarely useful to read posts from people who are only capable of criticism, with very little constructive input. And please, if you insist on posting, would you stop littering your sentences with uppercase words? It makes your text difficult to assimilate quickly. A basic grasp of spelling and grammar would also help you make your points, such as they are, much more clearly.

I am sure that you really can charge $500 an hour as a music teacher and that you really are an incredible businessperson who retired ever so young, but there is very little in your writing style that adds credibility to your assertions. Nor is it clear why they are relevant except as an attempt at self aggrandisement, with the presumption that it will add to your credibility. The reverse is more likely true.

We do not all need to agree with everything Kreisler says. However, his posts stimulate polite debate and many may appreciate his efforts, as a tutor and player, to be helpful. And he is always polite. This is the mark of a cultured man.

Kind regards

Adrian

From Brendan:

This is exactly what my teacher told me to do with this (actually one "drop" per beat..Down,up,up,up..Down,up,up,up..etc.)! It is great advice...your tremolos will become like riding a bike..

Also we all know Brendan has the background, training, and demonstrated expertise to lend credibility to this advice...vs someone who would rather be fishing (trolling...?)

I think to understand what Mac is saying, simply read Gyorgy Sandor's book "On Piano Playing". A lot of his ideas are very similar to Sandor's teachings (like stop playing when you feel pain, use the most economic motion to play, etc).
but true, in terms of piano playing, a lot of things cannot be simply explained in words like this. You really need someone to sit next to you and show you how things are done. Otherwise, if you mis-interpret what is written, it leads to more pain and injury..
anyway $500 an hour is ridiculous. Even Sequeira Costa doesn't charge that rate.

That's the funny thing about Mac's posts - many of his ideas are well-established, and he seems to have some knowledge of the subject.

What I found interesting is that he dismisses Matthay as old-fashioned and dangerous, but many of Matthay's ideas are physiologically sound and in line with Sandor's thinking as well.

If I thought his comments were simply that of a disgruntled troll, I would have deleted them, but despite his combative style, his ideas do warrant attention.

Physiologically sound yes - but he has the personality of a gila monster.

oh sorry -