2017 was our 20th year online!

Welcome to the Piano World Piano Forums
Over 3 million posts about pianos, digital pianos, and all types of keyboard instruments.
Over 100,000 members from around the world.
Join the World's Largest Community of Piano Lovers (it's free)
It's Fun to Play the Piano ... Please Pass It On!

Shop our online store for music lovers
SEARCH
Piano Forums & Piano World
(ad)
Best of Piano Buyer
 Best of Piano Buyer
(ad)
Advanced Piano Tricks
Advanced Piano Tricks
(ad)
Pianoteq
Steinway Spiro Layering
(ad)
Wessell Nickel & Gross
PianoForAll
Who's Online Now
76 members (accordeur, Alex Hutor, Andrew E., Beemer, Animisha, ando, bimzdbear, 17 invisible), 624 guests, and 413 robots.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
(ad)
Estonia Pianos
Estonia Pianos
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Hop To
Page 2 of 4 1 2 3 4
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 4,288
4000 Post Club Member
Offline
4000 Post Club Member
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 4,288
Quote
Originally posted by Tuan Vo:
I don't see the ad as slander. It's just advertising. Besides, it can partially be true.

I can honestly say that I would do the same... well, at least without that cheesy galaxy stuff. :p

I'm in the web design business. If I were to advertise, I would say other companies or web designers are ripping you off by overcharging you for mediocre, "rubber-stamp" designs.

Who hasn't done this before? It's part of business.

Most companies claim to have the "best" product. Is this slandering other companies implying that other companies only produce inferior or not as good products?
You would make the insulting claim that your competitors are conspiring to make it impossible for the public to buy more of your product? You find that OK?

Most companies do not make stupid statements about their competitors that, although couched humorously, are meant to leave that impression.

If you find this acceptable please let me know where you work so I can be sure not to do business iwth you either.


Michael

====

He is so solemn, detached and uninvolved he makes Mr. Spock look like Hunter S. Thompson at closing time.'
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 2,729
2000 Post Club Member
Offline
2000 Post Club Member
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 2,729
Hmmm...

Turning this back a wee bit back to be on topic laugh , Vince in Vegas does have a Suzuki. He is happy with it, although he did spend extra to get it properly regulated, didn't he? If I remember right, wasn't around $1000.00? Someone correct me if I'm wrong.

pdcheek, Suzuki is certainly worthy of consideration but I think you'd be doing yourself a disservice if you didn't look around in some stores as well. There is a chance you'll be pleasantly surprised.

Ken


Ken

Hammond Organ Technician
Piano Torturer
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 169
Full Member
Offline
Full Member
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 169
I paid approximatelly 125 for the initial tunning and then another 425 for regulation...again approximate.

Ken "pdcheek, Suzuki is certainly worthy of consideration but I think you'd be doing yourself a disservice if you didn't look around in some stores as well. There is a chance you'll be pleasantly surprised."


Agreed

Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 2,365
ftp Offline
2000 Post Club Member
Offline
2000 Post Club Member
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 2,365
What is the methodology to provide an informed opinion on a Suzuki if the manufacturer is unknown and changes? Is the argument that as long as you buy the specification it doesn't matter?

Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 2,729
2000 Post Club Member
Offline
2000 Post Club Member
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 2,729
Quote
Originally posted by Vince in Vegas:
I paid approximatelly 125 for the initial tunning and then another 425 for regulation...again approximate.

Ken "pdcheek, Suzuki is certainly worthy of consideration but I think you'd be doing yourself a disservice if you didn't look around in some stores as well. There is a chance you'll be pleasantly surprised."

Agreed
Thanks Vince. I couldn't remember exactly and was too lazy to search!

Ken


Ken

Hammond Organ Technician
Piano Torturer
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 7,439
7000 Post Club Member
Offline
7000 Post Club Member
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 7,439
Quote
pdcheek, Suzuki is certainly worthy of consideration but I think you'd be doing yourself a disservice if you didn't look around in some stores as well. There is a chance you'll be pleasantly surprised.
Ken,

All of what you say is true. The problem is one of comparison shopping. Sure, you can compare the price of the Suzuki to the prices of similar pianos in retail stores. You can factor in the generous return policy of Costco, the expense of tuning and prep, and balance those factors against whatever perks you can obtain from a retailer.

Unfortunately, the actual pianos are difficult to compare since Suzuki does not compete at the retail level. Now, Terry has questioned my statement to that effect and I have asked him to enlighten me. If he has information about locations where inexpensive Suzuki verticals can be seen, heard, and played before purchase, I would welcome that as a good thing. (Of course I don't mean a Howard Hughes-style meeting in a warehouse near a deserted airstrip. laugh ) Then the OP could make a more informed choice, and other members here could have a basis to give informed opinions when a Suzuki inquiry is received.

Certainly this thread lacks any informed opinions about Suzuki verticals for obvious reasons.


Will Johnny Come Marching Home?
The fate of the modern wartime soldier
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 4,288
4000 Post Club Member
Offline
4000 Post Club Member
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 4,288
You also will not be able to tell to any degree of certainty what a Suzuki will sound like in your hoime by playing it in a Costco warehouse.


Michael

====

He is so solemn, detached and uninvolved he makes Mr. Spock look like Hunter S. Thompson at closing time.'
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 18,356

Platinum Supporter until Dec 31 2012
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Offline

Platinum Supporter until Dec 31 2012
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 18,356
Wow... that blog of Terry's is absolutely fascinating. For example, I just discovered a new post Terry made to his blog on July 9th, which is chock-full of advice about purchasing a piano, e.g., how much does a piano cost, how do I go about finding a quality used piano, etc. etc. Take, for example, this beautifully written paragraph:

"Choosing a piano is oftentimes a difficult decision. By choosing a piano you are choosing a musical instrument, a fine piece of furniture, an object of emotional attachment and a monetary, musical, and educational investment. When properly cared for, the average lifespan of a piano is several decades, much longer than the average automobile.

Size is an important consideration in choosing your instrument since, generally speaking, the larger the piano, the better the tone. In large part, the amount of space you have for the instrument will be an important factor in choosing the right size of instrument for you. Many people are surprised to find that they have more space than they had originally thought and are able to purchase a much larger piano. The Piano Superstorecan provide you with a paper pattern to place on the floor to measure the space."

This sounded pretty familiar to me (and quite frankly the prose was more articulate than I am used to seeing in Terry's posts), so I did a quick googling, and what do you think I found on the Jordan Kitts Music website:

"Choosing a piano is oftentimes a difficult decision. By choosing a piano you are choosing a musical instrument, a fine piece of furniture, an object of emotional attachment and a monetary, musical, and educational investment. When properly cared for, the average lifespan of a piano is several decades, much longer than the average automobile.

Size is an important consideration in choosing your instrument since, generally speaking, the larger the piano, the better the tone. In large part, the amount of space you have for the instrument will be an important factor in choosing the right size of instrument for you. Many people are surprised to find that they have more space than they had originally thought and are able to purchase a much larger piano. Jordan Kitt's Music can provide you with a paper pattern to place on the floor to measure the space."

Notice TW was, indeed, smart enough to substitute in his dealership's name in that last sentence, but otherwise the passages are identical.

And it's not just those two paragraphs; the entire July 9 blog entry is lifted verbatim from Jordan Kitt's website.

The Jordan Kitts website, incidentally, lists a copyright date of 2004-2007 and notes "all rights reserved." I wonder if Terry asked for permission before using their material...

Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 11,211
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 11,211
Monica,

Have you been using Turnitin.com a lot these days.

[Linked Image]

Actually, I have used Mr. Google to discover obvious plagiarism as well. What fun!

Hey, perhaps a little email to Kitts would be in order here!

Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 354
Full Member
Offline
Full Member
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 354
Quote

You would make the insulting claim that your competitors are conspiring to make it impossible for the public to buy more of your product? You find that OK?
Mikhailoh. Honestly, I don't know anything about the piano selling business. I don't know whether if there are groups of dealers who are conspiring to take over piano sales as Terry stated in his advertisement. What is "OK" is situational. I'm sorry for saying it's OK for Terry to advertise like that in a rash manner without knowing much about piano business. That was a mistake in my part. Perhaps I am viewing things in a whole different perspective being in the web design field.

In the web design world (where I am experienced), there ARE people out there to get your money and give you half-assed quality work. I have seen it myself. My brother worked for a computer-related firm with it's own web design group. They charge extravagant prices (in the thousands) for terrible work (5-page websites...) that I can easily surpass, yet charge MUCH less. Although it is not set in stone, us united freelance webmasters do have somewhat of a price guideline determined by the quality and quantity of work we offer. Too many people and companies are are abusing the system. I feel bad when a friends tell me that they spent $2,000 on a 7-page website to promote his business when I could have done the same for less than $500.

I am one of the freelance web designers who are trying to expose these frauds and give the people a better deal. The only way to spread this message is to tell people that these companies are rip-offs that try to extract as much money from the client as possible. They are competitors and should be respected, yes, but when they play dirty, sometimes you have to "slander" them (not make up lies, but reveal their motives) and get the word out to the people before they get caught in the trap.

In Terry's case, I thought that he might have been trying to expose "bad" competitors. I only recently (an hour ago) learned about this whole P$$ conspiracy so I wondered why there was so much hostility towards him and his business. I've only been a member here for less than 2 months. I can see why you responded to me in that manner after seeing me defend his ad. It was an ignorant mistake and I apologize again. smile

Quote

Most companies do not make stupid statements about their competitors that, although couched humorously, are meant to leave that impression.
Perhaps I what stated was misleading from what I really wanted to say. I just wanted to say as a neutral person that the ad just looks like any other ad I see in the real world. Take example of Macintosh always playfully bashing PCs. Macs claim that PCs are virus infested and always breaking down. Macs claim to be user-friendly and "just works", yet they have a forum dedictated for troubleshooting and repair, with millions of posts from people who can't figure how to fix their Macs.

So you see where I get my impression of advertising in business?

Quote

...please let me know where you work so I can be sure not to do business iwth you either.
I'm Tuan Vo. I own TuanVo.org. If you find a web designer more honest and ethical than I, then I congratulate you. I'll still be here offering my services in case you reconsider. Best of luck to you though.

Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 4,288
4000 Post Club Member
Offline
4000 Post Club Member
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 4,288
Funny you should mention that. I am putting together a web site for my company now.


Michael

====

He is so solemn, detached and uninvolved he makes Mr. Spock look like Hunter S. Thompson at closing time.'
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 893
P
PSS Offline
500 Post Club Member
Offline
500 Post Club Member
P
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 893
Tuan Vo Said:
Quote
If you have it, you want to share it. If you share it, you don't have it. What is it?
A secret?

Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 1,426
1000 Post Club Member
Offline
1000 Post Club Member
Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 1,426
pdcheek, I suggest you check with your local piano stores and try some different pianos. As you can see, there are alot of varying opinions regarding purchasing a Suzuki. If you are intersted in purchasing a piano from Costco, you may want to check their website and find out what piano roadshows may be coming up in your area.

Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 3,946
T
3000 Post Club Member
Offline
3000 Post Club Member
T
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 3,946
I see a couple of key advantages of buying the Suzuki at Costco:

1. Buying a used piano is not for the faint of heart as you might buy a "cat in a sack". It would require you to find and hire a piano tech to inspect the piano for problems and provide you with a fair market value assessment. You might get a good deal, but this route will require time and money and does represent some risk.

2. Despite everyone's individual brand interests, in my personal opinion, most entry level acoustic upright pianos being built today in Indonesia or China at the lowest price points are equally dodgy. You might be better off buying from a dealer you trust than focusing on a specific label on the piano.

3. You know that Costco has decided to put all their piano focus on one brand and getting that one brand right. As a successful retail club outlet they will stand behind your purchase and your customer satisfaction and unlike some local piano dealers, they are in great financial shape and will be around for years to come, almost certainly for the length of the warranty.

4. Costco's whole retail proposition is a about offering value for money. While some buys are better than others, you can be sure that the buyers at Costco are doing their best to offer value for money on pianos. The price you have to pay is fixed and known so you don't risk overpaying by 10-20 even 50% due to non-transparent pricing practices which unfortunately are rampant in the piano business.

5. You don't have to subject yourself to all the time consuming unpleasantness of going acoustic piano shopping:

- getting smart about pianos by reading Fine, etc.
- researching shop locations and calling only to be told that you have to come in for price info. etc.;
- driving to stores and being confronted with your own lack of piano skills and listening to salesperson renditions accompanied by sales spiel;
- trying to keep a straight face and a clear head through all the self-serving, contradictory, brochure-speak (and occasional patently false statement) that has so eloquently been demonstrated on this forum by at least one poster;
- enduring a negotiation process every bit as distasteful as buying a car from an old-fashioned, "find a sucker" Detroit car dealer;

6. You can contract an independent tuner and tech to service your piano after delivery and in future to make sure you are keeping Costco honest.

So, if you want a low-hassle, relatively low risk purchase transaction to get a piano in your house soon, Costco might not be too crazy of a route to take.

I personally own a Suzuki digital piano which I am quite pleased with. It was a free gift with the purchase of my grand piano and on a dollar to dollar value comparison basis, I can safely say that it is the best digital piano I own.

Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 7,439
7000 Post Club Member
Offline
7000 Post Club Member
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 7,439
Quote
Despite everyone's individual brand interests, in my personal opinion, most entry level acoustic upright pianos being built today in Indonesia or China at the lowest price points are equally dodgy.
Journey,

I have no brand interest, but I don't share your opinion. In my own playing experience, I would rate some of the low-cost pianos available today as standouts in a crowded field, and others as pedestrian at best. Nothing personal, but I have to ask you how many of them you have auditioned.

Of course I don't know if the differences I've noted translate to Europe, but a person whose judgment I trust told me recently that he tried out some house brand pianos in Germany that were scary good (and cheap). When he inquired about them, he was told they were bought from Pearl River and prepped according to a specific house regimen.

Quote
You know that Costco has decided to put all their piano focus on one brand and getting that one brand right. As a successful retail club outlet they will stand behind your purchase and your customer satisfaction
There's a difference between standing behind a product and getting that brand right. I agree with you that Costco offers a certain kind of buyer a feeling of comfort and security. IMO they actually go too far in taking back anything and everything for refunds, and I know that many customer members abuse this privilege.

'Getting it right' implies either that Costco has made a wise brand choice, or that they have ensured that their brand of choice is built and delivered according to their quality standards. Quite honestly I think they are dealing with Suzuki because Suzuki will build to their low bid price, nothing more than that. And I doubt very seriously that they are exerting any influence whatsoever on quality control standards. I think they just anticipate the percentage of returns, calculate the loss, and price accordingly.

I agree with your general idea that a Costco purchase may make sense for some, and that by extension a PSS purchase makes the same sense.


Will Johnny Come Marching Home?
The fate of the modern wartime soldier
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 3,946
T
3000 Post Club Member
Offline
3000 Post Club Member
T
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 3,946
Quote
Originally posted by schwammerl:
From mikhailoh:
Quote
Your Myspaces page is a disgrace
Well I don't know. Living at the other side of the ocean I never learned so much about the piano industry in suc a short time as by viewing this page.

I do now know traditional pianodealers are comming from "a galaxy far away".

Perhaps in a subsequent page I will be taught were the PS pianos are coming from?

schwammerl.
Yes the galaxy stuff is cheesy.

And the negative, National Enquirer level links are good indications that this is likely not a dealer on the up and up.

But, for me as another resident across the pond, the big red flag visible is the misappropriation of the American flag on mySpace, the PSS site, avatar, etc. For the average American eye, the subconscious might coat whatever is flying it with unnoticed and undeserved goodness. My experience however is that there is a linear relationship between those businesses prominently trying to brand themselves with the American flag or fish symbols and the use of less than salutary business practices.

I find it always hard to understand why burning a flag is seen as a crime but besmirching one is accepted business practice.

Reminds me on a micro level of that famous and deeply prophetic quote from Minnesota's illustrious Sinclair Lewis:

"When fascism comes to America it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying the cross."

Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 3,946
T
3000 Post Club Member
Offline
3000 Post Club Member
T
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 3,946
Quote
Originally posted by turandot:
...I agree with you that Costco offers a certain kind of buyer a feeling of comfort and security. IMO they actually go too far in taking back anything and everything for refunds, and I know that many customer members abuse this privilege.

'Getting it right' implies either that Costco has made a wise brand choice, or that they have ensured that their brand of choice is built and delivered according to their quality standards.
I agree with your general idea that a Costco purchase may make sense for some...
Good point.

7. If you are not happy with your Costco Suzuki piano you can return it for exchange or refund long past the period that you could reasonably expect to do so from a traditional dealer.

Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 4,288
4000 Post Club Member
Offline
4000 Post Club Member
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 4,288
Costco has been queitly changing those policies, at least for electronics. This is because consumers have been abusing it - buying a computer, then saying after a year or so they did not like it, then buying a new one and doing the same cycle. Thievery.


Michael

====

He is so solemn, detached and uninvolved he makes Mr. Spock look like Hunter S. Thompson at closing time.'
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 11,211
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 11,211
Quote
There's a difference between standing behind a product and getting that brand right. I agree with you that Costco offers a certain kind of buyer a feeling of comfort and security.
What he said. .... A number of us have made this point in the past. There is a niche here for someone to fill. Some buyers do not value the hands-on buying approach, especially if it comes at some cost to them. Low price point and out-of-the-box has definite appeal to that fraction of the marketplace. Likewise, the extremely risk averse shopper (including those who worry a lot about buyers' remorse) may place a very high value on the return policy, especially if they are very unfamiliar with the market and learning about the market entails high costs to them.

Quote
'Getting it right' implies either that Costco has made a wise brand choice, or that they have ensured that their brand of choice is built and delivered according to their quality standards. Quite honestly I think they are dealing with Suzuki because Suzuki will build to their low bid price, nothing more than that. And I doubt very seriously that they are exerting any influence whatsoever on quality control standards. I think they just anticipate the percentage of returns, calculate the loss, and price accordingly.
This makes perfect sense to me.

The problem for Costco is that in satisfying the extremely risk averse they also set up the perverse incentives to milk the system by using the return policy as a no-cost rental. If that sort of behavior becomes at all common, the cost advantages of the Costco approach can disappear. Those return costs must be spread over all purchasers.

Joined: May 2002
Posts: 3,751
3000 Post Club Member
Offline
3000 Post Club Member
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 3,751
Quote
Originally posted by theJourney:
Quote
Originally posted by turandot:
[b]...I agree with you that Costco offers a certain kind of buyer a feeling of comfort and security. IMO they actually go too far in taking back anything and everything for refunds, and I know that many customer members abuse this privilege.

'Getting it right' implies either that Costco has made a wise brand choice, or that they have ensured that their brand of choice is built and delivered according to their quality standards.
I agree with your general idea that a Costco purchase may make sense for some...
Good point.

7. If you are not happy with your Costco Suzuki piano you can return it for exchange or refund long past the period that you could reasonably expect to do so from a traditional dealer. [/b]
This is pretty compelling. I remember having a discussion/debate with someone a few months ago on an appropriate piano for a couple of 5-6 year olds. He was recommending a Shigaru Kawai grand. I recommended maybe starting with a bit less - with the idea of testing the waters.

Costco provides a way of testing the waters. You can get a Suzuki piano in your home - use it for a year. The kids hate playing - no big deal - back to Costco it goes.

OTH, if the kids love to play the piano - hate the piano - no problem - back to Costco - go buy a U1 at your local dealer - or a nice Estonia 190 at Costco wink Either way, it's not a bad strategy - safer for the parent wondering if this piano thing will "take" or not - cheaper than "renting" a piano.

It's treating a piano the same way you treat everything else from Costco - don't use, don't need or doesn't work as promised - bring it back.

Page 2 of 4 1 2 3 4

Moderated by  Ken Knapp, Piano World 

Link Copied to Clipboard
What's Hot!!

Free Piano Lovers Newsletter is out now!
Piano News 2021 - 2022!
---------------------
My first professionally recorded piece
---------------------
Visit Maine, Meet Mr. Piano World
---------------------
Sell Your Piano on our world famous Piano Forums!
---------------------
Posting Pictures on the Forums
-------------------
Forums RULES & HELP
-------------------
ADVERTISE on Piano World
(ad)
Faust Harrison Pianos
Faust Harrison 100+ Steinway pianos
(ad)
PianoDisc

PianoDisc
(ad)
Piano Life Saver - Dampp Chaser
Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver
(ad)
Mason & Hamlin Pianos
New Topics - Multiple Forums
Pratt Reed Grand Piano Action
by Rburt53 - 01/18/22 07:41 AM
Happy birthday, Sam!
by jotur - 01/18/22 06:11 AM
Book Recommendations
by Qazsedcft - 01/18/22 03:53 AM
Novus 5 no "fading effect" after release
by Usheraname - 01/18/22 02:38 AM
Digital pianos - starting time
by JosefPirkl - 01/18/22 01:30 AM
Download Sheet Music
Virtual Sheet Music - Classical Sheet Music Downloads
Forum Statistics
Forums42
Topics211,202
Posts3,161,733
Members104,057
Most Online15,252
Mar 21st, 2010
Please Support Our Advertisers

Faust Harrison 100+ Steinways

Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver

 Best of Piano Buyer

PianoTeq Bechstein
Visit our online store for gifts for music lovers

Virtual Sheet Music - Classical Sheet Music Downloads



 
Help keep the forums up and running with a donation, any amount is appreciated!
Or by becoming a Subscribing member! Thank-you.
Donate   Subscribe
 
Our Piano Related Classified Ads
| Dealers | Tuners | Lessons | Movers | Restorations | Pianos For Sale | Sell Your Piano |

Advertise on Piano World
| Subscribe | Piano World | PianoSupplies.com | Advertise on Piano World |
| |Contact | Privacy | Legal | About Us | Site Map | Free Newsletter | MapleStreetMusicShop.com - Our store in Cornish Maine


© copyright 1997 - 2022 Piano World ® all rights reserved
No part of this site may be reproduced without prior written permission
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.5