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Estonia Pianos
Estonia Pianos
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Joined: Nov 2004
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Man you "rocks" of the PW or MVP's of the PW stir up more trouble than anybody else.

You guys have been the ones who have turned this place into a high school cafiteria room, with all the cliques and gossip.

All of the drama of I'm going to leave stuff or him or me stuff is so childish.

In a forum like this take the good and leave the rest. If you don't like a post ignore it. If you ignore it it will lose it's power and go away. If you keep rehashing it it'll gain power and turn into a 30 page thread.

People grow up.

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enlitened:

Isn't it a bit ironic that it's now *you* giving speeches to the classroom here?

"People grow up"?

There's a better idiom in English to show contempt - if you want to go all the way...

norbert :rolleyes:


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Rick you asked for an opinion and I gave you one.
What do you want me to do?
Clap at you? Kiss you r *ss ?

Man you need to grow up! Only because I did not agree with your post, look at what you are doing now.
You threw your self to the floor and began kicking.

Come on! I played a few Perzina pianos and I didn’t like it. So what!
In stead of raving and squealing, you could’ve ask me why I didn’t like it.

The problem here, is that a high percentage of the members have an interest in the piano industry.
That is why many react to adverse remarks about certain pianos.

Who can deny this?
Just to help you remember:
The Young Chang wave. Are those people posting at the time were legitimate consumers? NO
What about? When suddenly everybody was buying M&H
The Petrof promotion…every single person that visited the forum was told to check this or that Petrof.
Look now with Estonia same thing.

My policy is to give an opinion based on my experience and perception of a given piano.
I give credit to those pianos that deserve credit at the same time I called Junk those that are Junk or disguised junk.

Have I called junk a Charles Walter, Sauter, Yamaha, Mason and Hamlin, Boston, Kawai, Seiler etc?
No. Why? Because they are good instruments period. At least in my experience.
Now, if you suspect I’m dealer…oh well!. I wonder which store carry all these brands together.

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Rick's main point is not about "me or iyi". Instead, it is a clear message to Frank to either provide a solution for the degeneration of this Forum OR risk losing most (if not all) of the best people permanently. Rick, lb, justme, Larry, Jolly, etc. would all be following in the footsteps of others who've gotten fed up in the past and left. (Most of you don't even know that there were others, but Kenny and our holdovers from the original forum will remember Niles and his partner Mark Mandell, for instance.) The difference this time is that we risk losing virtually ALL the good people at once.

If this forum (Frank) can't find a way to stop the drift into irrelevance, the good people will find another outlet, one in which opinions are respected but garbage is dealt with. These people are tired of fighting the garbage.

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Quote
Originally posted by Cork:
Rick's main point is not about "me or iyi". Instead, it is a clear message to Frank to either provide a solution for the degeneration of this Forum OR risk losing most (if not all) of the best people permanently. Rick, lb, justme, Larry, Jolly, etc. would all be following in the footsteps of others who've gotten fed up in the past and left. (Most of you don't even know that there were others, but Kenny and our holdovers from the original forum will remember Niles and his partner Mark Mandell, for instance.) The difference this time is that we risk losing virtually ALL the good people at once.

If this forum (Frank) can't find a way to stop the drift into irrelevance, the good people will find another outlet, one in which opinions are respected but garbage is dealt with. These people are tired of fighting the garbage.
Mark dropped by The Coffee Room a day or two ago.

Politically, between the two of us, we'd cut a baby in half, rather than agreeing to any of King Solomon's suggestions.

But that's Down Yonder. In this arena, I respect Mark's work (and Niles' too, for that matter), and find him to be an open-minded professional, who I would not hesitate to recommend to anyone in his business area.

I wish he'd drop in more on the PF, myself.


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Quote
Originally posted by Cork:
Rick's main point is not about "me or iyi". Instead, it is a clear message to Frank to either provide a solution for the degeneration of this Forum OR risk losing most (if not all) of the best people permanently. Rick, lb, justme, Larry, Jolly, etc. would all be following in the footsteps of others who've gotten fed up in the past and left. (Most of you don't even know that there were others, but Kenny and our holdovers from the original forum will remember Niles and his partner Mark Mandell, for instance.) The difference this time is that we risk losing virtually ALL the good people at once.

If this forum (Frank) can't find a way to stop the drift into irrelevance, the good people will find another outlet, one in which opinions are respected but garbage is dealt with. These people are tired of fighting the garbage.
What he said.




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The *good* people can also stay on and simply stay put.

I said before we all can do better - somewhere -somehow - and Jolly rightfully pointed out the *tone* here has become somewhat better and more professional as of late.

Now back to the factual matters of discussion...

norbert smile


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The main issue isn't the what the "regulars" think of iyi, its the misleading he does to newbies who can't distiguish his crap from more sound advice.

He adds to the disharmony here without offsetting the damage with sound comments.


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If you all would spend half as much time posting your opinion on pianos as you do with these multipage love fests, it would be easy to "distinguish his crap" because you would have written what you actually think about pianos instead of what you think about Iyi, who doubtless doesn't care what any of you think of him.
People are going to post things you don't agree with. They may even post misleading things. Post your opinion on the actual topic and let your credibility speak for itself. Embroiling yourselves in these things doesn't clear anything up for consumers. It just degrades the atmosphere in the forums.
Since the topic here is Rick versus Iyi, I'll vote for whichever one wants to post about pianos. Most of the people that leave here probably are consumers chased away by these endless and pointless tirades anyway.

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As much as I like Rick - he has been one of the greatest contributors here for a long time - I tend to agree with the above poster.

I think these last few weeks here should give us an opportunity to learn.

1] Let's stick to subject matters which started a particular thread,

2] Show repect to anybody even when disagreeing,

3] Show goodwill to everybody - even types like IyI - we can always start some serious *interrogation* sessions when things get too wild, vague or out of hand .... laugh

4]Let's not take things too serious - there's life after-besides the Forum!

Unfortunately it's often the going ballistic and combative pages here which seem to draw all the attention. Like some kind of spectator sport....

For better or worse - this also has become part of the attraction here and "attendance numbers" seem to prove my point.

besides, some of the *real* fights here have long been going on among some of our very best contributors.... wink

We cannot abolish the ambiguity, confusion, let alone the competition in this market.

But give everybody at least the chance to make his/her very best - or worst - point!!

norbert smile


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Rick,

Stand your ground...

If you leave then it could be interpreted as a sign of weakness.


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First of all I want to acknowledge the many complimentary comments regarding my contributions here. It really is nice to know that some people do care whether I stay or go.

As to the matter at hand,Cork seems to grasp what I am saying, so I hope those of you who are misunderstadning things will reread my original post with Cork's comment in mind.

Because what is between the lines is that the problem is not truly iyi v. Rick- though some language leads in that direction if you don't take in the entirety of the post.

The problem is what the continued presence of what iyi represents.

My thought was that if Frank would dump iyi, it would indicate some motion on his part to start putting this forum in order. But actually if he dumped iyi and does nothing else, it really doesn't accomplish much.

So let me amend my previous statement and say clearly- the Forum needs to change if I am to remain interersted in investing my time here. Taking out the trash is a good place to start, but taking out the trash does not clean the whole house.

I'm sure some will be happy to see me go, some will be indifferent, and a few apparently don't want me to. Oh well, that's internet life and I'm no politician. But whatever camp you are in I hope you will at least acknowledge that I've been 100% honest and always tell it straight, for whatever that's worth. And when I advise on technical subjects I speak from long experience as well as theory.

For those who would be interested in staying in touch, my actual name and email address is public knowledge, and I'm certain I will land somewhere else in cyberland where I will be accessible.

As to PW, it has become too much like RMMP, and I left RMMP for basically the same kinds of reasons I have previously mentioned about PW.

Regards,


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Quote
Originally posted by Rick Clark:
I hope you will at least acknowledge that I've been 100% honest and always tell it straight, for whatever that's worth.
Absolutely.

Please, Frank, stop the bleeding. This is appalling. You're the only one who can stop it. How many people do we have to lose?

PLEASE, STOP THE BLEEDING!!!! You're a good guy. What's going on that this is being allowed to happen?

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Norbert,

As much as I love you, and as much as I appreciate you wanting/trying to be the peace maker, there is more at stake here.

If the people who really have significant piano industry knowledge, who do care and are willing to contribute their time to educate the uninformed on this forum, like me, IMHO, you are going to have to put out the riff-raff, aka trolls. If you don't, they are NOT going to continue to devote the time and effort. It's just not worth it to them and it would be a tremendous loss to this forum.

It's really as simple as that.

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Rick,

let me add this:

I remember you on RMMP (I don't know if you remember me or not). You have always been truthful and honest.

Please keep this in mind:

PW is more like a small town. It has its good parts and not so good parts. Perhaps it would be wise for you to not "cross the tracks". Stick to the places you know. Threatening to leave will do nothing but degrade your own character.

Sometimes we can have a "my way or the highway" mentality. I would encourage you to think positively about your accomplishments in this community and again...stand your ground. Ignore trolls and embrace the rest.

Every city and town has its losers and its winners. You just can't leave a town to a bunch of losers or it will die. In other words, PW needs you!

Sincerely,

Isaac Bruton
still loving my Yamaha C3 every minute (Even after 8 years of ownership)


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I appreciate what you are saying but if you think it's just about trolls, you misunderstand. There are also "respected" people here who are playing PW like a violin to their own ends and often to the damage of others in the industry. I cannot betray confidences as to specifics, but as I mentioned before I have several contacts in the industry outside of PW and have gotten much behind the scenes info. Again I say PW, the way it is today, is harming the industry in several ways. A lot of this has to do with bad information, and I don't mean "accidentally" bad. Some of it is simply predatory stuff going on out of sight. This is part of what I mean that Frank needs to take some stand on the quality of information. This is, after all, a form of publishing- there needs to be SOME standards.

Regards,


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I appreciate what you are saying but if you think it's just about trolls, you misunderstand. There are also "respected" people here who are playing PW like a violin to their own ends and often to the damage of others in the industry. I cannot betray confidences as to specifics, but as I mentioned before I have several contacts in the industry outside of PW and have gotten much behind the scenes info.

I want to repeat that. I also hear from the industry outside this forum, and what I hear fits exactly with what Rick is saying. Especially in regard to the damage, and especially in regard to the "respected" people who are playing the place like a fiddle. I've mentioned it before, so has Rick, so has lb, and so has Cork. We have been met with a mix of apparent lack of interest by Frank, a few who understand, and some who choose to attack the messengers either because they simply don't understand or because they nurse some grudge and are looking for any opportunity to say something negative about the one who brought it up.

We not only care about the quality of information that gets put up here, and about PF. We also care about the industry in general - and it is to a point where this place would better serve the piano industry if it simply shut down.

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Cork, Larry, lb, Justme and Rick,

I for one am QUITE interested in the out of sight goings on. Can either of you elaborate without betraying confidences as to what has occurred and what damage done within the industry? Also, apart from trolling for customers, have consumers been materially harmed?

This is not a challenge in any way, just a request for info. You can PM me in confidence if you'd prefer.


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I'd also like to know what damage is being done to the piano industry overall by PW. I'm all for banning iyi and other trolls, sorry to see that Frank isn't doing it. But I fail to see what other damage is being caused.

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I cannot elaborate without betraying confidences.

There are many in-industry folks who read PW but never contribute because the risk-benefit ratio is not good.


It's too bad because there is some great knowledge out there that could be shared if they felt the forum were a more appropriate venue.

Some will see themselves in this discussion and can come forward if they want, but I'm not holding my breath.

I can't say more than that.

You can take my word I know what I'm talking about or not.

Regards,


Rick Clark

Piano tuner-technician
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