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copied from "Perzina-excellent" thread:

Michael,

I can tell you know that iyi bir piano has no experience with these.

iyi bir piano has been spouting self-serving lies for so long he no longer has the ability to differentiate between honesty and dishonesty. Rather, he assumes that everyone else is just as dishonest as he is so any lie he comes up with is justified.

The problem is, there has been much too much self-serving propanganda around here lately, and Frank appears to be uninterested in doing anything about it. Unfortunately, for those who *are* honest, when you are swimming in the same pool with a bunch of lying, self-serving jerks, you appear to innocent consumers to be just another head bobbing around.

I'm stating here and now that unless Frank comes up with some concept of quality of information around here then I've got no interest in hanging around any more. Because if information is so confused by the self-interested that consumers have got no way of separating out informed opinion- then I'm just wasting my energy typing here.

There has always been a certain element of BS around here, but in the past it seemed that reason would usually find it's way forward. I no longer feel that way. I think reason is outnumbered. I think Piano World is becoming Spam World.

I am very close to following lb out of here and I suspect some other long-time contributors are too.

And as much as I like Frank, and as highly as I think about him, I have to say that if he has no interest in getting rid of weasels like iyi bir piano (and others), then he has no interest in keeping me around.

So that's it then. iyi bir piano, or Rick Clark? I still like you either way, Frank, but it's decision time.

Regards,


Rick Clark

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PLEASE don't let Rick go! eek


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Excellent post, Rick. I'm in your corner on this one. In fact, I'd already decided not to post here any more. Some may already have noticed the other solid contributors to this forum who have been absent lately. They *aren't* on vacation. The warning signs have been coming long before this.

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Opinions are often stated as fact, and a veil of anonymity gives certain posters the power to avoid consequence to their actions.

There is good and bad that comes from this, but at the end of the day the good does seem to outweight the bad.

Rick - I sincerely don't think the position you just put Frank in is fair. Iyi stated an opinion, even if it wasn't a qualified or substantiated one. This is nothing new to this forum. This happens quite often with Iyi, and many inflamatory things have been written by this individual, but they have been opinions. Heck, everyone here expresses their opinion.

<a href="http://www.pianoworld.com/ubb/ubb/ultimatebb.php?/topic/1/9462.html">This should become mandatory</a> the moment someone is recognized as an 'industry professional". The only thing that Frank should pursue, in my opinion, in this realm is the disclosure of "who is who" so we know from what direction these opinions are coming.


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Quote
Originally posted by Angeleno Jazzer:
Rick - I sincerely don't think the position you just put Frank in is fair.
For clarification, the "him or me" approach. I agree with you on the need for quality of info control.


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It's not just Iyi, and it's not just Rick. It's several things, and a boatload of the best contributors this forum has who all share Rick's frustration.

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I would hate to see many of the knowledgable and sound posters leave because of a handful of writers who spew out opionions only with no foundation. I think they are cracked. There are plenty of others who post opinions which are probably outside of their expertise, but they dont get chased out. We just weigh the good with the ugly. smokin


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Angeleno Jazzer,

There is a difference between opinion and propaganda. iyi bir piano is no consumer. He's in-industry and hides behind his handle. iyi bir piano thinks that my perfectly honest assessment must be "counteracted" and he thought he would be safe throwing in a line like 'it's no different than any other Chinese piano'. But that is the line that gave it away that he is just making stuff up because anyone who knows Chinese pianos and knows *this* piano would know that it's very very different from other Chinese pianos in our market. IOW he's lying in an attempt to make my information look non credible. Check the Perzina out for yourself and see if you don't agree with me.

Regards,


Rick Clark

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We can also really try to work together.

Somehow.

Sometimes we need to have the chance *to learn* and - speaking for myself - I [recently] did. wink

Less confrontation,less ghost hunting, less everything.

Let others have different opinions without the constant need to *win* the battle.

And let's stick to questions or subject matters as closely as posssible.

In as friendly a way as possible.

norbert smile


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If Rick goes, especially because of Iyi, it will really be a tremendous loss in credibility to this forum.


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Keith I agree. Rick stick around.


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Quote
Originally posted by Rick Clark:
when you are swimming in the same pool with a bunch of lying, self-serving jerks, you appear to innocent consumers to be just another head bobbing around.
Maybe, maybe not. It depends on the consumer. The various internet forums I'm familiar with are much like this one. It can take time to figure out who is honest and who is engaging in mischief, but those who are bright enough to filter out misinformation will learn to do so very quickly.

Rick, this business of folks "leaving" an internet forum has always struck me as a bit silly. I think it is often the result of investing excessive time and energy into this medium. Take a break. Give it a rest. Let somebody else smack Iyi around. You shouldn't have to do all the work and nobody's asking you to.

Regards.

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There is no question Piano World has exploded in growth in the past year. Frank may have posted stats before, but doing some quick calculations, about 165 new members were joining per month when I joined. In the past fifteen months, it has grown to an average of almost 350 new members a month. With such expansion it should be expected that there would be growing pains. I don't know if the growth rate will continue to increase or flatten, but I'm hoping this is period of time that will pass and settle down and sort its self out for the better.

For that to happen though, knowledgeable and helpful members need to stick it out, otherwise the Forum will be permanently worse off. I personally haven't had much difficulty differentiating between the useful and not so useful members. This is made possible by the long time residents calling out and challenging members with hidden agendas. I think other members like me don't have much difficulty in differentiating this either. But, if the knowledgeable members such as Rick, lb, and Larry disengage from the Forum, then there won't be that "other" voice to set things straight. I know everyone knows this, and I'm probably preaching to the choir, but please keep it in mind and realize the positive influence you do have on the Forum.

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Trolls should be banned immediately without hesitation. We all know that.

People such as iyi bir piano should be banned without too much hesitation - if someone is causing trouble, just get rid of them sooner rather than later

The honest users of the board deserve to be vigourously protected from having to deal with idiots.

Were I in charge I'd have a "3 strikes and you're out" rule. 3 bad posts and you get banned.

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Rick,

I was trying to gently get to the point that Iyi has no basis other than self-interest for anything he says, but without starting a flame-up.

Of all the reasons that one might pick for taking a hiatus from PF, please don't let it be Iyi. He's just not worth it, and your posts are always first rate. You help people on here more than you know.


Michael

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Where is Kluurs when we need him? There should be an easy-to-post graphic of someone sweeping up elephant dung that could be popped up whenever you encounter a shill, troll or other similar sort. This board is, and has been, an invaluable resource to me as a consumer. As a reader, sorting out the extreme types isn't too difficult, but must be very tiresome to those who wade in to do it.


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Rick - As a "newbie" to the world of pianos having just started in the past couple months, I've found your posts and comments to be a great resource and value. Thank you. I would hate to see you go, but certainly would understand your reasons if you decide to do so.

There may be a solution to this problem and perhaps Frank, or someone with far more knowledge of the system than I, could address it. My understanding is this forum software has the ability to create "polls". Perhaps if Frank could set up the polls in such a way that the membership could decide by voting who stays or goes. This would seem to me to be a very democratic way of monitoring the posters. I'm sure it could be set so any member could only cast a single vote to discourage fraud (I'm in Washington State so we know a lot about voter fraud). Does anyone have any thoughts on this?? Does it seem like a reasonable approach?


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Perhaps Frank could create a link to a "Discredited Posters" page. This page could contain the names of posters who have established a history of posting sans data to back up their assertions, or of posters with clear industrial ties who have not declared such in their profiles/signatures.

Incidentally, I am not affiliated with the industry, other than possessing a long-term love affair with its products. I am a scientist by training, and I have learned that fewer words and more data speak with more authority.

Dave

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Another thing we might want to consider here before we make demands is that Piano World is a business completely separate from the forums.

The piano industry is not huge. It is possible that some troublesome posters may in fact be known to and have some sort of business or collegial relationship with Piano World. In this case banning some people may create problems for our host that we are unaware of.

I'd like to see Iyi go too, or at least conform to PF protocols, but that should at the discretion of the moderator.


Michael

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Good point, Michael.

Dave

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