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hope you find happiness in your piano sunslight.. I truly do.. I sense somehow that you are one of the truly discerning who needs a 135,000 dollar piano.


accompanist/organist.. a non-MTNA teacher to a few

love and peace, Õun (apple in Estonian)
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I spent seven years recording and supervising the recording of classical music, piano, other solo instruments, orchestra, voice, both in the studio and on stage.

I understand the differences between studio and on stage, that the piano needs to be adjusted, as well as the surroundings, for where the piano is place
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I did not hear these problems in the showroom. The environment was too noisy. But in my home they are sure there.
With a 7 year career in professional audio recording, you didn't realize there would be a difference in sound between a noisy showroom and your living room?

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I sense somehow that you are one of the truly discerning who needs a 135,000 dollar piano.
Even a 135,000 dollar piano has notes at the top that don't have dampers on them..... and they ring sympathetically.

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Larry, of course I knew there would be a difference. that's why I kept waiting for the piano to settle, then to see what needs work.

Thanks Pique & Curry.

The information is very helpful.

The brassiness and other problems are probably not the hammers, but the voicing.

when the most offending notes were worked on, mostly with very light needling into the strike point (eeek,but sometimes necessary), significant improvement was made and the brassiness went away. But it took 4 hours to fix two/three notes. That leave about three that are still really bad and 20+ that need work.

Curry, I am finding that it is reported in this model of Estonia, most all have their 1st two notes above the dampers, ring.
It's just that mine are sounding much stronger than the norm. These are very, live. And I'm trying to find a way to quite them a little.

I understand and appreciate the ring in the treble. It helps carry the sound and gives extra color. Indeed, as expected all the notes above the dampers are excited when the fundamental or a lower partial is sounded. This is good.
But when a G chord is release then you hear F#, quite strongly, the minor 2nd isn't too pleasant. I don't mind the overtones, just need those two notes to be brought down to be closer to matching the rest of the range.

My solution to try yarn to give a bit of dampening seems to be working, but take it out and the problem is very prevelant. One suggestion was that this can be controlled by the moveable duplex bar. What do you think or what would you do with a piano where those two notes are Extremely live, objectionally so?

Larry, pointed out that I am a novice, obviously not a technician, from how I speak of things: that my claim to have been a Craftsman memeber of the Guild is a term he has never heard of.

Could someone step in and let him know the designation "Craftsman"

It certainly was hard to earn and for him to seem to suggest that it is some unknown or even non-existent designation is a bit offensive to me.

Also, Larry said I was showing my ignorance by not calling the notes by the right name,e.g. calling middle c: c1, first line c, and then later as C4.

Could someone help here and let him know that it is actually he that doesn't understand the nomenclature and that it is only recently that piano technicians started naming the notes from the bottom of the piano, up.

Middle C is the note on the first line above the F clef and it is also the note on the first line below the G clef, thus it is "first line c or c1." It is the designation used by theorist. For me to refer to it as c1,c' as well as C4 was not an error.

the designation c' c'' etc. is a standard set by Helmholtz.

A quote on this is "Helmholtz notation is widely used by scientists and doctors when discussing the scientific and medical aspects of sound in relation to the auditory system.

The Helmholtz notation is also used to distinguish octaves. The range using lower case c to b is called the 'small octave' while the range using c' to b' is called the 'one-line octave', 'one-line' refering to the single prime '. The next octave c'' to b'' is called the 'two-line octave' and so on upwards. The range written with capital letters, C to B is the 'great octave'."

I don't want a war with Larry. But I'd like confirmation from other techs who know--and will vouch, that there was a "Craftsman" designation and what it meant (I left the guild just before the reorganization and the switch to RPT).

And help me out on that I'm not showing ignorance by calling middle c and that 8va: c1, d1. Those terms have been around for a very long time

Curry, I know that the dampers on a grand can make a "whosh" The really bad ones on this Estonia, I called a "whang." But then there are some that are perfectly (nearly) quiet when they come down.

Is it a matter of a day of regulating to get the "whang" down to a "whosh" or even, hardly noticable? Or is it something to live with?

And suggestions on how to get the pesky F#,G to come down in amplitude a bit would be helpful.

Thanks Curry on Dr. Laul's info again. You're right. My glasses fell off!
(I hope he will listen and offer help to get the regulation done/problems solved or mitigated.)

Yes, I could use a $125,000 piano. I bet though, once this one is in shape, it will be really close to that $$$$$$ piano. I just hope people will work with me and make this a fun project to get the piano at her/his best.

And Larry, you indicate that even in a $125,000 the treble rings. Somehow, you are missing that I keep saying I know they do. I expect it. The laws of physics say they will. The ring is even worked on by the manufacture so it is amplified and helps the carrying power of the piano.
You seem to be implying that I don't want those notes to ring or know they will. Which is not true.
What I want is for the sympathetically excited F#,G on my piano to not be so live--(the dealer & his tech said that on my piano, they were louder than on other Estonias). I'm not trying to do away with the character of the piano, just pull those two notes back a little. That's what I need help with--how to do it (other than yarn and my T-shirt).

Thanks,
Bob


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Bob, first off Larry knows his stuff. We now use the common designation for the notes as AO to C8 with middle C being C4. You use the old European system.
Second, stop working on your piano. Piano technology has come a long way since you started in the biz. You need to speak to Dr. Laul. Get his advice. Maybe he will arrange to have your piano examined. Otherwise, you are going to end up with a voided warranty as Larry stated earlier.
Then you state," the brassiness and other problems are probably not the hammers, but the voicing". Bob this makes me wonder if you are really are a tech. Voicing has everything to do with hammers.


G.Fiore "aka-Curry". Tuner-Technician serving the central NJ, S.E. PA area. b214cm@aol.com Concert tuning, Regulation-voicing specialist.
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Bob, you are all over the map. You ask for help from technicians, but you won't listen to us, you listen instead to the ones who aren't technicians. Your posts are so full of contradictions and impossible logic that I can't keep up with it.

Good luck with your piano. I've told you what I think your problem is. An average skilled technician can fix your piano in about an hour. You need to quit fooling around with your piano or you're going to void your warranty. Nothing about your piano rises to the level of requiring replacement. It's all simple, straight forward stuff. I will tell you though, that most any dealer, when faced with a customer who insists they are a technician and tries to "fix" their piano or starts "touching up the unisons and temperment", will eventually reach the point where they tell you you're on your own.

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Sunlight don't be intimated by Larry or Curry. Stay the course and purse with persistence to be completely happy with your piano. Not playing notes below middle C, avoiding music, NOT GOOD! Please, please let EVERYONE know what Estonia does to help this problem. If they back you up then that is a good thing and ALL CONSUMERS need to know.

Wow, how do you remain? 7 months, that's too much time to spend with frustration.

This forum should have input from everyone techs, dealers, consumers, student, etc., and EVERYONE has a voice. I'm not a tech, but I will tell you a well known dealer who is known around the country in my area installed a piano disc system in my piano and I had major problems with the pedal. After three visits, he wasn't able to fix it. When I told him the sustain pedal pounded he fixed it so that when it played it didn't pound, but when I played the piano it did. He was out three times to fix it, but was unsuccessful. His fourth time, he told me to "buy a new piano", even though my piano was only 6 months old, and then... I got to looking under the piano and made some adjustments that "fixed the problem". Now tell me how is it that we can rely 100% on those techs? This man sells tier one pianos in my area and rebuilds pianos and could not find the problem. You would think he would know his stuff, but I DON'T THINK SO. You have to be diligent in trying to figure out the problem. I wouldn't suggest working on the piano yourself, but you got to figure it out! I also had someone come to my house and "TAPpED" the strings, and WOW!!! you want to talk about overtones and singing, but yet Kawai, as well as the tech, said it shouldn't have changed much. WRONG!!! It did!!! There are SO MANY aspects of the piano that effect the sound that it remains a guess work for anyone.

Larry said get a tech and fix it in an hour! Right! Larry get your head out of you know where and let Sunlight obtain his information from every where not just those so called qualified techs. Like I said "my tech couldn't fix it" and there are techs that are not worth their weight.

Good Luck Sunlight, as a consumer it is very important to keep us posted.

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Sunlight don't be intimated by Larry or Curry.
That's right - don't listen to us. We're just technicians and rebuilders with well over 60 years of experience between us. You should listen to Perfection. He fixed his pedal once.....

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This forum should have input from everyone techs, dealers, consumers, student, etc., and EVERYONE has a voice.
Read the description given for this forum. It reads "Piano tuner-technicians, use this forum to discuss tuning, repairs, restorations, etc.
Also, the place to post technical questions about the piano." Do you see anywhere in that forum description the words "and for novice consumers to stick their noses in and tell people not to listen to the technicians"?

There is a different forum for novices and consumers. This one is for tuners and technicians. "Everyone" should *not* have a voice here. You are not a technician, nor are you a tuner, and your ignorance in this area combined with your firm belief that you have a "right" to have a "voice" in things here is exactly why this forum has become useless.

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Larry said get a tech and fix it in an hour! Right! Larry get your head out of you know where and let Sunlight obtain his information from every where not just those so called qualified techs.
Let's see.... a know it all fixes one thing a technician didn't do right, so I have my head up my "you know what".

Well, you know what? Have at it, sport. *You* be the technical advice columnist here. You don't have a clue what you're talking about, but you have at it. This was supposed to be a forum for technicians to discuss things amongst themselves, and for consumers to come here and ask questions of the technicians and tuners without the interference of ignorant consumers like yourself trying to give advice. The Piano Forum is the forum where ignorant consumers can pick each other's noses. But you have at it, sport. Most of the knowledgeable people have stopped giving any advice anyway. Thank you for showing the few that remain that their experience is no longer needed.

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I said intimated not "do not listen to" I also said obtain information from everyone, not just techs because they are wrong sometimes and some aren't worth the money. Larry, Sunlight's tech said it was his hearing. That's not right! You have a huge ego and you know what "buddy" you're not always right and everyone should obtain information from every place possible at all different levels. The pedal wasn't the only thing I fixed the the years I owned a piano. Four technicians and they all made mistakes to different degrees. I have found one now that I think is worth the money, but he too has admitted to making mistakes. It's possible Larry, and anyone with their own minds should ALWAYS, ALWAYS question the tech, dealer and manufacture, because NO ONE knows it all, even you Larry.

Easy on the ego Larry, let others have an opinion that might not be the same as yours.

Easy boy!!!

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This isn't an issue of ego. I'm happy for you that you have discovered that you are more knowledgeable than all the technicians you've used. Truly. But the fact remains, this is a technician's forum, with the stated purpose of being here for technicians to discuss things, and for nontechnicians to ask questions. There is nothing in that stated purpose of this forum that says this forum is a place for nontechnicians to give advice, or take technicians to task by saying things like "get your head out of your you know what" or "I have as much right to voice my opinions as you do". You don't. You aren't a technician, and in spite of your belief that you are better than all but one of the technicians you've hired, you're not.

If my information is incorrect, it is up to other technicians to correct me, not you. That's the whole point of this forum. When egotistical know it all novices such as yourself stick their noses into a topic with statements and advice that is incorrect, and then argue with those who are professionals in the area being discussed, you in effect turn this forum into another Piano Forum, and cause the discussion between technicians to die off because they aren't interested in getting into a ****ing match with you.

The fact remains, you have not only not given good advice, you have given *bad* advice. You have no knowledge to back up your views, just your "feelings" and your opinion. I am fully willing to allow others to have an opinion, as long as they are technicians who know what they are talking about. You don't, and your insistance upon forcing yourself and your opinions into a forum you are not only not qualified to speak in, but are not *supposed* to give advice in is at the heart of one of the things that has weakened Piano World's forums.

The ego issue sir, is your own.

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Why don't you make a recording of the problematic sounds, put it to some website (MP3) and let us understand the real problem?

It is an easy task and can be done with a computer and a 5$ mic.

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sunslight:

I had some lively strings and strange sympathetic vibrations on my Estonia 190. The dealer who sold me the piano, who also is an ace technician, came out to do a normally scheduled tuning/regulation. He didn't get a chance to complete the regulation because he ended up doing three passes on the tuniing bringing it up to 442, not the normal (in this country) 440. Seems the prior tuner had brought it down. He informed my that Estonia is really designed to be tuned at 442, which is common for European pianos.

Anyhow, by the time he left three hours later, all strange sounds were gone and the paino sounded drop dead gorgeous. Way more resonance.

I'm not sure that the tuning up to 442 was the solution, but I was informed that the 190 is designed for that tension.

FWIW.

BTY, I certainly ain't no technician, so I'm not claiming to know anything. Just passing on what coincidently worked for me. Can't argue with success.


John, and my two sons play an Estonia 190 and a Samick upright.
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Not sure if all European pianos are tuned above 440, but the Hamburg Steinway is supposed to be tuned to 443.

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Thanks all for the comments.

I appreciate the support from all. I do not appreciate what seems to be attacks, though. I don't like waring with Larry. middle-of-the-road is pretty good.

I have been trying to get back on the forum to reply; but having computer problems has stopped me. As my computer parts come in though, that will no longer be a problem. (provided the computer doesn't catch on fire again !)

Curry, if you're still around, you menitoned I made the comment, I didn't think that the problems were with the hammers but with the voicing.

That was a strange statement I made. I must have been writing at three in the morning or something. Because my statement is totatly incorrect and makes no sense.

I did say I thought a lot of this was voicing and as you pointed out (and I know) voicing has all to do with the hammers. I'm not certain why I wrote what I did. I must have meant something else but don't have a clue right now, what it was.

At the last working on of the piano, by the dealer/tech and his Estonia tech, the offending "brassy" notes, from F3 to C4 (or f - c') were worked on for four hours and only one (almost two) was voiced close enough to match the notes before and after that bad section. At that rate it's going to take a long time to get this thing voiced.

And yes Larry, I did start with only a few problems and expanded them. The problems actually expanded as I played the piano, and I brought them into the thread.

The latest problems are 1)with the finish: the hinged part of the lid that covers the music desk, when laid back, rests on two clear plastic buttons. Beneath one of them the color is white and blue. That doesn't look very good on a high gloss, black piano. The dealer said he'd take them off, but didn't offer to fix the problem.
2) the notes a-flat5,a5 sustain the fundamental for only about two seconds before it decays into partials. the notes around them, sustain like the other notes of the piano, seven seconds +. Playing a melody that goes through these two notes sound like the melody has fallen into a hole.

That's a voicing problem, right?

As I listened to my son play today, there is definite distortion when he played in the two 8va above middle c. This too, I think is voicing. The hammers are just too hard?
(I checked everything around the piano to see if there was anything that could vibrate sympathetically, but found nothing--except I could hear the buzz/fuzzyness seeming to come from one area of the soundboard, more than another--but still couldn't find anything that was loose.)

I don't want the piano to loose its distinctive voice, but I don't want the ugly sound or the distortion, which I can best describe as "fuzzy," a slight buzz; nor have it have the brassiness just below middle c.

Regarding the damper problem, still as I release a quiet note, the note will suddenly have an increase in volume as the damper tries to seat against the strings. It doesn't quite make it down to all the strings at the same time. There are however, some notes that are perfect (at least perfectly, acceptable).

The worst offenders are those which have dampers that are double wedged in front and flat in the back.

To not void the warranty, although I could work on regulating these, I am not touching them.
Again, this is worse in the center of the piano.

I watched closely and it appears that the dampers are coming down in such a way that the hard felt of the front wedges hits first, and in the split second before the back settles down, that is when the "whosh," "sizzle," whatever you want to call it, happens. I didn't see the damper wire beating against the strings.

These are all little problems which mount up to a lot of work.

Who general pays for this type of regulation/voicing--me, the owner or are they things that should have been seen to before the piano was sold or fixed after selling?

About the F#6,G6, problem, and the ring. It's good to knpw that this is a known problem with the 190. it just seems that my 190 has the problem worse than most. So the question is how can it be mitigated?

Playing a V to I cadence of D to G, or any chord that has those notes, then silence, results in hearing the final G chord, immediately follwed by the f#, which makes a mn 2nd.

It's as clear and strong as daylight. You hear the GBD then F#6. It wouldn't be so bad if it wasn't a minor 2nd. But I hear very loudly, over everything, instead of the GBD ring, a strong F#6 against G.

This makes it impossible to record anything that ends like that or has such a progression, followed by silence.

The minor 2nd of F# rubbing against the G harmony that the ear just heard and expects to linger, but is replace by the minor 2nd is very nasty.

Does anyone have a suggestion how to quiet this, other than a different piano?

The idea to try yarn pulled againt the bridge hitch pin was something the tech who worked on it suggested I try---so that shouldn't void the warranty, as suggested it might.

From what I am gather here, if the moveable duplex is worked with, these unwanted or at least the volume of the unwanted partials may be lessened by adjusting the duplex bar?

Is that right? Because my techs say it isn't worth the trouble and it won't help.

I mentioned earlier, this was demonstrated to me by totally dampening, with felt, that part of the string after the bridge. The felt did nothing to stop the unwanted sounds. So, why adjust the duplex bar?

Or do you think that adjusting the moveable duplex bar would actually do good? Is it there to mute, as the felt does, or to tune and by tuning, will diminish the volume of the unwanted, F#,G?

If I just have to live with it, which means often hearing a minor 2nd when you'd expect the ring then decay of a G chord, I won't be able to do any recording of works that have such a passage or have much enjoyment when the beauty of the cadence is screwed up by the minor 2nd.

It probably wouldn't bother me so much if it were other partials ringing, but hearing loudly and in the clear, the G/F# mn 2nd, after hearing the G,B,D, chord, makes you do a double take or in my case, a wince.

I did have a little luck, pulling down the volume of the problem by wrapping yarn around the F#6 strings, pulling it tightly against the hitch pin, then backing it away, until it just barely deadened the speaking length.

Any more ideas on this--forget it & be unhappy or go with trying to get my techs to adjust, even though they are against it, the moveable duplex bar and still try to fix it? Or do you have any other suggestions?

How would you fix this?

I will call and try to talk with Dr. Laul.

I hope he will help. I know my dealer/tech could hear the problems (he said he could) but it was just put back on me that more than 90% of the people would never even noticed by most people. I know a microphone would notice. I know non-musicians could hear the "problems." I may have had to tell them what to listen for, but when I did the people I asked to listen, said "yes, they could hear it," so I know it not just me.

Your ideas are appreciated. And does the factory usually cover voicing/regulating or is that something I pay for, as I am now doing?

Oh--and the white/blue spot beneath one of the clear plastic buttons has only showed up, since the lid the piano has been here and that part of the lid is nearly consistently laid back and resting upon the supporting buttons.

Is that a factory thing to fix or again a problem I have to pay for? As I mentioned, the answer from the dealer was the button could be removed--no offer was made to fix the problem.

I do appreciate the help and do want ideas on what to do.

This is a very good piano, it just needs work by someone who knows what to do. That's why I hoped the factor would have answers. If other's have experienced the F#,G problem, then I would expect the factory to know about it and have a fix or at least suggestions--or does it not work that way?

--just as further clarification on nomenclature: my use of different terms for the notes which was attacked by Larry was in no way showing ignorance on my part but trying to make it so anyone reading this would understand what notes I am talking about.
It was also suggested that my terminology was out-of-date and European.

Neither of these, I believe are true.

As technicians, it is important to speak the same language, but it is also important to know different terminology, just as a crochet is the same as a quarter note.

It would be better for us to realize that middle c is not only C4 (a recent terminology of piano technician in the US) but around for much longer as c', 1st line c, c1. This was developed by Helmholdst, to whom we owe much and is the preferred terminology used by music theorist, musicians, taught in music schools, and also by acoustical scientists.

It wasn't that I was showing ignorance as Larry suggested, but that I was trying to be clear to all how read my post.

All the help you can give, suggestions as to what you would do to help this piano (and who pays for it) is really sought.

Thanks,
Bob


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A painter paints his pictures on canvas. But musicians paint their pictures on silence.

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Bob,

I'm sorry to hear that you have so many problems with your piano. But I think, the best advice has already been given to you: call Dr. Laul and discuss the problems with him. I don't think anybody on this forum can really tell you, which problems should or could be covered by warranty or how much voicing the dealer should pay for and so on. The way you describe the problems leaves very much room for speculation. That means, without seeing the piano in person it is impossible to judge whether this is something normal or not (all pianos have some damper noise, and also ringing overtones in the treble section to a certain extent, you probably know this, beeing a tech yourself).

As for the ringing of F#6/G6, you could try to retune the treble section using a different amount of stretch and see if this helps to reduce the ringing. If you muted the duplex and that didn't solve the problem I wouldn't tune the duplex since it doesn't have to do anything with your problem.

Since you refer some comments directly to Larry, I want to tell you that Larry will be unable to answer you because he was banned from this site. He has his own forum, tough, so you could always go there if you want to give him the opportunity to answer to your post.

I wish you good luck with your piano.

Best regards,
Jens

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