2017 was our 20th year online!

Welcome to the Piano World Piano Forums
Over 3 million posts about pianos, digital pianos, and all types of keyboard instruments.
Over 100,000 members from around the world.
Join the World's Largest Community of Piano Lovers (it's free)
It's Fun to Play the Piano ... Please Pass It On!

Shop our online store for music lovers
SEARCH
Piano Forums & Piano World
(ad) Piano Sight Reading
train piano sight reading with your iPhone or iPad
(ad)
Best of Piano Buyer
 Best of Piano Buyer
(ad)
Pianoteq
Steinway Spiro Layering
(ad)
Wessell Nickel & Gross
PianoForAll
Who's Online Now
55 members (brdwyguy, 8ude, Arjen B, Alex Hutor, anotherscott, ambrozy, 1957, 10 invisible), 560 guests, and 529 robots.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
(ad)
Estonia Pianos
Estonia Pianos
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Hop To
Page 1 of 2 1 2
#49234 04/02/08 09:53 AM
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 4,288
4000 Post Club Member
OP Offline
4000 Post Club Member
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 4,288
I said never mind... laugh


Michael

====

He is so solemn, detached and uninvolved he makes Mr. Spock look like Hunter S. Thompson at closing time.'
#49235 04/02/08 09:55 AM
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 11,176
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 11,176
Mik,

Read Ken's pegged thread above.

#49236 04/02/08 09:56 AM
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 6,480
Founder - Owner - Host
6000 Post Club Member
Offline
Founder - Owner - Host
6000 Post Club Member
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 6,480
About the PSS thread...

http://www.pianoworld.com/ubb/ubb/ultimatebb.php?/topic/1/21776.html


Our ISP had a problem with an upstream router failure. Took most of the day to fix it.


- Frank B.
Founder / Owner / Host
PianoWorld.com
www.PianoSupplies.com
Maple Street Music Shop
Find Us On:
Facebook.com/PianoWorldDotCom
www.youtube.com/PianoWorldDotCom
www.linkedin.com/in/pianoworld
Skype: PianoWorldDotCom
My Keyboards:
Estonia L-190, Yamaha P-80, Hammond D (think B3 in a cabinet) & Leslie, Harpsichord (kit), Bilhorn Telescope Organ c 1880, 2 - Antique Pump Organs & others
-------------------------
It's Fun To Play the Piano ... PLEASE Pass It On!
Please invite every piano enthusiast you know to join our piano forums!


#49237 04/02/08 09:59 AM
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 18,356

Platinum Supporter until Dec 31 2012
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Offline

Platinum Supporter until Dec 31 2012
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 18,356
I gotta say I'm disappointed these threads keep getting yanked. Rob had a legitimate complaint and offered substantiation of his claims. It would seem to be helpful to prospective customers of P$$ to know of problems others have had with this company.

#49238 04/02/08 10:42 AM
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 1,789
B
1000 Post Club Member
Offline
1000 Post Club Member
B
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 1,789
Quote
Originally posted by Monica K.:
I gotta say I'm disappointed these threads keep getting yanked. Rob had a legitimate complaint and offered substantiation of his claims. It would seem to be helpful to prospective customers of P$$ to know of problems others have had with this company.
Does bring up an interesting question as to what, if any, ethical/moral responsibility a site like PW has when an event like this happens. There certainly wasn't anything in any of the threads that I saw that encouraged any type of action to be taken by members other than Rob (and then it was simply other courses to seek remedy).

So where does PW's ethical/moral responsibilities lie? As Monica has pointed out, if the deleted threads stem from fact, a disservice to others out there who might stumble into the PSS trap (or have already been snared and are looking for help) occurs. Then again, personal threats in this day and age are not to be taken lightly.

For me personally, I side with Monica. Given the neutral nature of the site and lack of any evidence that posts on the site directly or indirectly encouraged any retaliation, I think PW is doing a bigger disservice by pulling the threads. Not to be cold about this situation, but Terry is the one whose, potentially illegal and seemingly unethical, actions has led him to where he is now. You take peoples money (or lead them to believe that they have been taken) and they are going to get seriously upset. And we're not talking $100 bucks, this is serious money that represents months/years of hard (and in some cases life threatening) work. I personally don't believe that PW should assume any culpability if others choose to read the events and then choose to act in childish/boorish/fillintheblankish ways. And no, I'm not saying that Terry "deserves what he's getting", if you think that you're missing the point entirely.

Obviously Ken and Frank run this board and they are free to do whatever they choose. I ask that they reconsider the thread deletion, or come up with some other way to better serve both sides. If PSS has really filed for bancruptcy and their site is really still taking orders, and that there might be others out there still who may have no money and no piano, I think that it is in everyones best interest (even Terry's) to make folks aware of the issues.

#49239 04/02/08 10:52 AM
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 4,288
4000 Post Club Member
OP Offline
4000 Post Club Member
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 4,288
No moral or ethical considerations can possibly outweigh poster safety.


Michael

====

He is so solemn, detached and uninvolved he makes Mr. Spock look like Hunter S. Thompson at closing time.'
#49240 04/02/08 10:57 AM
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 6,480
Founder - Owner - Host
6000 Post Club Member
Offline
Founder - Owner - Host
6000 Post Club Member
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 6,480
Threads don't get deleted, they get moved to a restricted area.

When a person's family is threatened, and the police and lawyers get involved, it seems prudent to move the thread to a safe place while we all figure out the right course of action.

If a company is running a less than honest piano business, my guess is the word will get out on the forums anyway.

The company then has the option of changing the way they do business, or risk suffering the consequences of negative reviews on one of the Internet's most popular piano web sites.


- Frank B.
Founder / Owner / Host
PianoWorld.com
www.PianoSupplies.com
Maple Street Music Shop
Find Us On:
Facebook.com/PianoWorldDotCom
www.youtube.com/PianoWorldDotCom
www.linkedin.com/in/pianoworld
Skype: PianoWorldDotCom
My Keyboards:
Estonia L-190, Yamaha P-80, Hammond D (think B3 in a cabinet) & Leslie, Harpsichord (kit), Bilhorn Telescope Organ c 1880, 2 - Antique Pump Organs & others
-------------------------
It's Fun To Play the Piano ... PLEASE Pass It On!
Please invite every piano enthusiast you know to join our piano forums!


#49241 04/02/08 11:06 AM
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 18,356

Platinum Supporter until Dec 31 2012
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Offline

Platinum Supporter until Dec 31 2012
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 18,356
I didn't see any of the posts on that thread after about 9:00 pm, so I don't know if anybody came on and advocated making threatening phone calls. It doesn't sound like anything like that happened on the thread.

What appears to have happened is that Terry claims he received threatening phone calls from somebody who read the thread. Making such calls is reprehensible behavior, and nobody deserves that treatment.

But I don't think yanking the threads was the right solution. If you push this situation to the logical end, it implies that nobody can ever say anything negative about any piano dealer they have interacted with... because all it will take is for that dealer to say he or she has received threatening phone calls, and *bingo* the negative thread disappears. And at that point PW has lost some of its usefulness and credibility.

Frank is not in an enviable position. Obviously you need to be cautious when negative threads are posted; you don't want competitors creating sockpuppets and posting untrue accusations that could seriously damage a dealer's reputation. We have seen before threads that suggested a dealer was going bankrupt which turned out not be true at all. A thread like that SHOULD be yanked. But when a customer has a serious problem with a dealer and is prepared to offer verification of their version of events (Schumann's delivery nightmare thread where he had tape recordings of the dealer making up wild stories about where the piano was comes to mind here), then that information should be allowed to be posted on the forum, imo.

*sigh*

I just hope that Bruno Enzo, ScubaSteve, and rob all get either their pianos or their money back. frown

#49242 04/02/08 11:17 AM
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 1,789
B
1000 Post Club Member
Offline
1000 Post Club Member
B
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 1,789
Frank, thanks for the clarification on thread "deletion" and I fully understand your actions, esp against the backdrop of today's legal environment.

Mik, I understand your general sentiment, but I disagree that the situation is that black and white. Media outlets deal with this issue all the time and there are plenty of instances where the greater good is served by information dissemination. Not to mention the issue of intentional manipulation through deception.

But in any case, Frank is correct. This thread in and of itself shows that even in the absence of it's progenitor, that the general message is still communicated.

#49243 04/02/08 11:26 AM
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 18,327
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 18,327
In the professional forum that I help moderate we have outsourcers, service providers and end clients who could be client of the service provider or of the outsourcer who is usually an agency. Disputes arise over whether someone has been paid, should have been paid, did shoddy workmanship. we have a special private area where these questions can be addressed which is not open to the public. Paid membership is needed, though at times someone may be granted temporary access, and an accused person is always alerted of the accusation and is granted temporary access. That way reputations are not tarnished wholesale but they can work things out.

Could something of that nature work in this forum? I haven't followed this thread too closely except to know it had something to do with the sale of a piano or pianos.

#49244 04/02/08 11:42 AM
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 3,757
AJB Offline
3000 Post Club Member
Offline
3000 Post Club Member
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 3,757
I partially disagree with Monica here. I felt that Rob may have had a legitimate complaint but he aired that complaint in a rather over the top way. He made at least one assertion that was not substantiated by his alleged facts and I certainly got the feeling that he was on a witch hunt. For that reason I questioned some of his wilder remarks.

That said I do agree with the general sentiment that it is better not to pull threads. However, the invitations to ring the police, the references to bankruptcy and various other things would have rung alarm bells with me too as the Forum operator and in this case I would have done the same as Ken or Frank.

I agree that making personal threats against members here is entirely inappropriate. Generally, in my experience of this forum, people complaining about dealers are quite circumspect. For whatever reason Rob decided to be unusually forthright. I did not see the earlier threads that were pulled, but in general I think a more polite and less emotive approach works better on this Forum.

I am glad that Ken posted the reason why he pulled the thread. Thanks for that Ken. It is an appropriate thing to do when people spend time contributing to a thread and then it suddenly disappears. Good moderating.

Kind regards

Adrian


Currently playing 2017 C212 with carbon fibre soundboard, WNG action. Working on Bach, Beethoven, Grieg mainly.
#49245 04/02/08 12:00 PM
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 2,727
2000 Post Club Member
Offline
2000 Post Club Member
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 2,727
Guys,

Whether anyone encouraged any phone calls to Terry in the pulled thread, it really does not matter.

1. The person making the threatening calls specifically mentioned the threads in the phone calls (multiple calls). If nothing else, the threads served as fodder for the caller.

2. There is a legitimate question as to the veracity of certain of the statements made in the threads, and Piano World does not tolerate defamatory material.

Now I gotta get back to work. smile

Ken


Ken

Hammond Organ Technician
Piano Torturer
#49246 04/02/08 01:45 PM
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 14,233
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 14,233
I too felt sorry for Rob, but Frank and Ken had every right to pull those threads. They were headed way beyond the normal disagreement, argument, opinion, and philosophy types of threads that we are used to here on the PW forums.

Apparently, there was more to this particular incident than the information we were getting and it does appear that there is now litigation involved (on both sides).

Maybe we need to stick to discussions like “my piano is better than yours”. laugh

Best regards,

Rickster


Piano enthusiast and amateur musician: "Treat others the way you would like to be treated". Yamaha C7. YouTube Channel
#49247 04/02/08 01:50 PM
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 2,727
2000 Post Club Member
Offline
2000 Post Club Member
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 2,727
Quote
Originally posted by Rickster:
Maybe we need to stick to discussions like “my piano is better than yours”. laugh
Or bigger... laugh

Ken


Ken

Hammond Organ Technician
Piano Torturer
#49248 04/02/08 02:11 PM
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 802
500 Post Club Member
Offline
500 Post Club Member
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 802
I obviously respect the decision of the moderators and understand their concerns.

Having said that, in other fora I know the moderators intervene by simply cancelling the incriminating phrases (say: invitations to call the police, references to bankruptcy etc.) and sending a pm to the poster saying what he cannot write and asking him to stick to that.

This way, the thread remains and the piano-relevant topics are for all there to read, but no business owner is "punished" or made target of a "witch hunt".

Rob's concern and problem was, whatever his ways of expression, of general interest in my eyes and worth of debate.

The questions he has posed have remained unanswered and the one who should have answered them chose to seek the closure of the thread instead.

Intelligenti pauca.


"The man that hath no music in himself / Nor is not mov'd with concord of sweet sounds / Is fit for treasons, stratagems, and spoils." (W.Shakespeare)

Kemble Conservatoire 335025 Walnut Satin
#49249 04/02/08 02:47 PM
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 3,946
T
3000 Post Club Member
Offline
3000 Post Club Member
T
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 3,946
Well, all we do know for certain is that the OP said he had a valid complaint and that he was able to quote emails that sounded a lot like Terry.

We also know that Terry said he received threatening phone calls.

Unfortunately, what none of us can know is if he actually did receive threatening phone calls.

What we however do now know, is what you have to say to PW in order to have a thread that is unfavorable to you removed without a trace (rather than moderators censoring any individual posts or statements within posts which in the opinion of the moderator go too far).

Can I assume that the threads set aside are to be returned later? If not, perhaps we could at least have a permanent sticky or pegged thread made titled Piano Super Store that doesn't reference any of the (controversial) content of the removed threads but simply states the facts that due to the amount and intensity of complaints and difficulties surrounding PSS that numerous threads had to be removed to protect various parties from alleged threats and harm.

Then at least PW would not also have to suffer by becoming a less reliable source of information on buying pianos by selectively giving free passes to repeat offenders.

#49250 04/02/08 02:55 PM
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 4,288
4000 Post Club Member
OP Offline
4000 Post Club Member
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 4,288
Let it go, folks. The ambulances, police cars and wreckers are all gone and the broken glass has all been swept up. This car wreck is over.

The right thing was done by Ken and Frank. Now we all need to let it play out in the proper arenas.

Let us hope for Terry's family the bankruptcy rumors are untrue.


Michael

====

He is so solemn, detached and uninvolved he makes Mr. Spock look like Hunter S. Thompson at closing time.'
#49251 04/02/08 03:37 PM
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 14,233
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 14,233
Hi Michael,

I couldn’t agree with you more. My Mom always told me that the more you stir stink the worse it smells. It’s time to let the odor of this one subside a little.

Best regards,

Rickster


Piano enthusiast and amateur musician: "Treat others the way you would like to be treated". Yamaha C7. YouTube Channel
#49252 04/02/08 07:38 PM
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 1,555
B
1000 Post Club Member
Offline
1000 Post Club Member
B
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 1,555
perhaps some is gained by this lesson? when a post is targeted at a particular person..that person should get a first response..no one else..
(to defend him or herself) just my 2 cents.. smile
moderators? what do you think? BOB

#49253 04/03/08 12:46 PM
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 802
500 Post Club Member
Offline
500 Post Club Member
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 802
"perhaps some is gained by this lesson? when a post is targeted at a particular person..that person should get a first response..no one else..
(to defend him or herself) just my 2 cents.. [Smile]"

Hhmm..... it's a forum, not a tribunal.... wink

Besides, that particular person might not answer and just let the thread skip into oblivion. Bit too easy if you ask me.


"The man that hath no music in himself / Nor is not mov'd with concord of sweet sounds / Is fit for treasons, stratagems, and spoils." (W.Shakespeare)

Kemble Conservatoire 335025 Walnut Satin
Page 1 of 2 1 2

Moderated by  Ken Knapp, Piano World 

Link Copied to Clipboard
(ad)
Faust Harrison Pianos
Faust Harrison 100+ Steinway pianos
(ad)
Couch to Concert Hall
Couch to Concert Hall
(ad)
PianoDisc

PianoDisc
(ad)
Piano Life Saver - Dampp Chaser
Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver
(ad)
Mason & Hamlin Pianos
New Topics - Multiple Forums
cheap sponge instead of felt?
by chopin_r_us - 05/14/21 05:17 AM
First International Stretto Piano Festival
by Rhonda B - 05/14/21 04:19 AM
Kurzweil SP88X
by Micahjd - 05/14/21 02:24 AM
Download Sheet Music
Virtual Sheet Music - Classical Sheet Music Downloads
Forum Statistics
Forums42
Topics206,924
Posts3,093,386
Members101,516
Most Online15,252
Mar 21st, 2010
Please Support Our Advertisers

Faust Harrison 100+ Steinways

Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver

 Best of Piano Buyer

PianoTeq Bechstein
Visit our online store for gifts for music lovers

Virtual Sheet Music - Classical Sheet Music Downloads



 
Help keep the forums up and running with a donation, any amount is appreciated!
Or by becoming a Subscribing member! Thank-you.
Donate   Subscribe
 
Our Piano Related Classified Ads
| Dealers | Tuners | Lessons | Movers | Restorations | Pianos For Sale | Sell Your Piano |

Advertise on Piano World
| Subscribe | Piano World | PianoSupplies.com | Advertise on Piano World |
| |Contact | Privacy | Legal | About Us | Site Map | Free Newsletter | MapleStreetMusicShop.com - Our store in Cornish Maine


© copyright 1997 - 2021 Piano World ® all rights reserved
No part of this site may be reproduced without prior written permission
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.5