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And who is a lot of us?


Michael

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He is so solemn, detached and uninvolved he makes Mr. Spock look like Hunter S. Thompson at closing time.'
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Quote
Originally posted by mikhailoh:
[b]And who is a lot of us? [/b]
Count me in. (How some of you guys find time to practice is a mystery to me!)


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Count me out. I'm with Peggy on this one. A hype-free piano forum might be a vain dream, but it's one worth pursuing, IMO. I'm all for Ax keeping dealers on a short leash regarding hype.

I don't think any of you were around when things got really, really bad in this forum. Some members, who took it upon themselves to police the forum, went overboard and got into flame wars with others, BUT their intentions were good. They wanted to run the dishonest, deceiving dealers out of the forum, particularly dealers posing as ordinary users. They seemed to pop up almost every day.

We're not dealing with that here per se, but when Frank decided to get serious with dishonest dealers, he implemented a policy and got Ax to moderate. Ax is just doing his job.

Sure, you think you can tell hype from truth, but believe me, you ain't seen nothing yet! Maybe that's because Ax is doing such a good job as moderator. Sure, he may have to make some unpopular calls about what is hype and what is not, but I'd rather have that than what was going on here before.

The "declared" dealers who regularly contribute here can cope with Frank's policies and Ax's moderating.

Just my 2 cents.


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Quote
Originally posted by nickd:
I can't comment too much on this forum as I only found it fairly recently.

...certain participants taking it upon themselves to start telling people what they could and couldn't post - often based on their personal hang-ups or extremely puritanical view of life and right/wrong.
Are you sure you only found this forum yesterday?

Good post.


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Never mind.


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At the end of the day, it's hard to distinguish what's hype and what's not.
For instance, if a forumite (consumer) posts that he does not like the touch of Yamaha digital pianos and a Korg dealer pipes up and say: "You know, Korg puts out Model X that has a lighter touch", would you call that hyping or helping out? Yes, it's factual that this Korg Model X has a lighter touch than Yamaha digital pianos but it's also true that this dealer is a Korg dealer through and through so where do we go with that one.
And this example is not really that hypothetical either nor uncommon.
It's also true that certain individuals get way more slack than others...so the whole situation is somewhat arbitrary.
Just some of my humble observations.


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Nobody here will have to worry about good'ol Norbie *hyping* anything:
decided not to write anything about my own pianos anymore. thumb

If anybody should care: don't need *advertising* here - ficticious or *real* one - we're doing just fine - thank you very much! smile

[Not that this was ever the *reason* I ever wrote about them here in the first place - some of course would never believe me antways and continue to argue ad infinitum.......]

If my own customers, of course, choose to write here about *their* choice - as some have done in the past - I hope I can't be expected to stop them.

[perhaps Ax can at least pull their *offending* posts shocked ]

Meantime,hope everybody here enjoy his/her summer:

- if fighting and arguing should remain absolutely necessary - check who happens to let the dogs run wild in the campground - but don't blame your neighbour who perhaps doesn't even own dogs......

norbert smile

[sorry,can't mention names of my pianos.... ]


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An interesting read. I have been on this forum .... for years. I remember Luermann very well. I stopped posting for a while because of him. There have been others too. They come along once in a while ... looking for trouble. That's why moderators are necessary. Just why they are so disruptive is beside the point. When they get so that most people can't even post for fear of being attacked, the moderator has to step in and make the call. Someday I'm looking forward to paying Norbert a visit. I'd love to hear him play and try out his selection. Until then I wish him and all the other fine piano dealers who post on this forum all the best, because the truth really is (as demonstrated on the TRULY AWESOME Pianoworld CD, and you should all get one) that you are all in this for the sake of expanding musical expression itself. If that isn't high enough glory for anyone, I don't know what is. Thank-you all for many years of entertainment and goodwill shared on this lively forum.

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David:

Very well said!
Here, here!
That should be the spirit of PW...undeniably the best darn piano site (bar none) of the cyber-universe and lightyears ahead of all imitators!

GC

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Steve Cohen writes:
Many posters in this thread are relative newbies. They haven't seen the name-calling and demeaning comments made in the past.

Before you get on that horse and ride off into the sunset, you need to think about the name calling and demeaning comments *you* have made in the past. That's the trouble with paint - when you try to wipe it on something else, you usually get it on yourself too. You are the author of some of the worst name calling and demeaning comments ever to grace this forum, Steve. Why do you think I rag you so much?

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Norbert,
I hate to see you leave these forums. No, it's true, I haven't always liked some of your rhetoric in the past (especially the rhetoric a few months ago in reference to the Steigermans). And, some of your power plays in the past but we don't need to talk about those. Those of us who were here at the time, I'm sure remember them. Best forgotten as water under the bridge IMHO.

But, I have always appreciated your knowledge and expertise. You're one of the very few truly knowledgeable people this forum has left.

If however you do post less and it's because your busy, I wish you the best of luck and hope you continue to sell many many pianos.

I'll be posting less as well and so I understand.

Sincerely,
Peggy

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Peggy,

I agree with you that I would hate to see Norbert leave these forums. I for one realize he has a vast amount of knowledge which he is willing to share and impart upon this group. Yes, it would be nice if there were less "hype", but the problem as I see it is we run the risk of “throwing the baby out with the bath water”. If the "anti-hype" environment is going to be so strong, those with legitimate information to share will be afraid to do so. In that event the forum is no longer serving its purpose. In this instance, I am just using Norbert as one single example, but as you know there are many, many industry professionals who no longer post on these pages and the membership here is suffering because of it.


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The posters on here are plenty articulate enough to post without the hype. I honestly do not believe anyone on here is afraid to post for fear they will be moderated.

Just stick to the guidelines and all will be fine.


Michael

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Speaking as a dealer I would hate it if my genuine enthusiasm for a piano were censored. But I do understand when a dealer is reigned in for overstating the comparative value of their own inventory.

Saying this Chinese brand x is nearly as good as this German brand x for 1/10th of the price is the real issue.

I would hate to see Norbert leave as well, he is a riot. He also has many valuable things to contribute and I am sure one way or another he will continue to do so.




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One more time... This is not about persons; it's about actions, i.e. the content of posts on the forum. The dealers as well as the rest of us, are smart enough, I hope, to be able to understand that. If they choose to contribute in a way that is not consistent with the guidelines, and posts get yanked, that is their choice. Nobody is forcing anybody to leave.
Michael, I agree with your post and thanks.

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Is it just me? Where did Norbert say he was leaving? He said he's not going to write about his brands anymore. To say that means he is leaving is, well, almost a stab wink


One of the funny things about the stock market is that every time one person buys, another sells, and both think they are astute.
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Quote
Originally posted by Eins:
Is it just me? Where did Norbert say he was leaving? He said he's not going to write about his brands anymore. To say that means he is leaving is, well, almost a stab wink
I was picking up on something justme said in a previous post.

Eins, what is your dream piano?




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Hi all;

I don't think Norbert said he is leaving.

I have been watching this thread go on and on; it is rather discouraging to see some folks continuing to bait each other, and others to keep taking the bait. Those who want to see less flaming on the boards should try harder to stop taking the troll bait if you want to help put the flame wars out. Resist, resist, resist... taking the bait being flung out.

This thread (and the related deleted threads) have been an eye opening experience to say the least.

As for the hype issue.... as a piano enthusiast it doesn't bother me at all. Although when I begin to feel someone is over hyping the products I find myself tuning them out after awhile and begin dismissing the posts as just more of the same.

My own feeling is that it is up to the piano consumers and enthusiasts to discern the hype from the actual realities when it comes to pianos on the market.

Having once been active in moderating and owning 5 large email list groups (some focused on activities involving "large amounts of money" and competition) ; I can sympathize with the forum owner and the moderators in their attempts to put out the flames. Some members seem to me to be acting like trolls and need to be treated as such.

Unfortunately when flame wars break out; it is usually recommended that the moderators remove flame posts as soon as they appear on the lists and boards. Unfortunately, when the moderator does take that action; those who are the acting the most troll like will be hollering the loudest about "censorship". After removing the offnding posts the poor moderator gets the heat for doing his job.

But it really is the list owner's perogative to decide what is best for his website and forums. The site owners "good name" is on the list and the list owner needs to protect himself as well as his forums (with it's many members).

Personal attacks and flaming should never be tolerated; and flame posts that are offensive/slanderous/ malicious should probably be removed to discourage more flaming of the same ilk.

Flame wars are what hurts boards and lists like these; to allow such troll type behaviors to infect the list in the end makes established members want to no longer participate on the board and at the same time makes newer members wary of participating on boards and lists where folks are allowed to attack each other.

Nobody wins these kind of wars; all the participants who dish out dirt do end up wearing dirt themselves.

I doubt that I have been the only non-dealer member who has been watching these threads and doing a lot of head shaking when reading some of the nastier posts that have been on the boards lately.

I know that there have been some nasty fights on the forums for too long now and that is why some refuse to stop the bickering and attacking each other. But if you want the board discussions to be focused on pianos and music related issues; it would do better to eventually get back to discussing pianos and not how the moderator is moderating those who persist on flaming the boards.

If people on the PW want to continue to flame each other; it would probably be best for all the flamers themselves to do their waring privately. People on the lists probably need to moderate themselves, but if they cannot refrain from abusing other members or the forums then they need to be moderated. I do not envy the moderators and owners of the list as this sort of volunteer work is the sort that can burn a person out.

Hopefully things will get better soon and there will be less flaming and more talk about pianos.
This is still a great website and I would hate to think of new folks coming over to check it out that might feel less freely to join and contribute to the discussions because of flaming.

I hope things will be much better in re.to the flaming when I come back to visit PW again. I really hate flame wars.jmo


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I have read a lot of posts to the effect of 'The hype doesn't bother me, I can sort through it'.

That some people can filter the information to their satisfaction is not the issue.

PF was founded with the idea that it would be a source of information about pianos and a place to discuss them, as unbiased as is humanly possible. Toward that end industry professionals have always been admonished NOT to hype their products or to use the PF for a business agenda. It is a wise rule, and served in good stead for some years.

If we let that ideal go because some people don't mind it, PF becomes little more than e-advertising, caveat emptor.


Michael

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