Piano World Home Page Forums Our Most Popular Forums Piano Forum Rebuilt Steinway w new Soundboard vs Restored/ New Steinway

Played plenty of exceptional Steinway model B lately.
Two caught my attention: rebuild B from 1910s pretty much everything: new action, string, cabinet finish (with nice polyester), well prepped, And, both with new stika soundboard and new logo.
So pretty much the only thing remains is the cast plate and rim.
Both of them plays really well, and they sounds like "new" steinway, with a more focused tone. Which is very nice.
Where the restored or good old Steinway B has a thicker and fatter sound (which I love).
My question is, is a Steinway with a new soundboard still the same piano with the same "soul"? The showroom also have a few rebuild model A but with original soundboard, they sound very nice as well. The owner (who voiced, and did a lot work of the piano) told me he considered new soundboard better for piano at this age, and they will last much longer than, lets say a 1950 Steinway with original soundboard.
They definitely sound very nice, its just a thing that I can't get over my head. Whats your opinion and experience on rebuild piano with new soundboard?
The ones with new soundboard also cost more (about 10k CAD, but I can manage if it's worth it).
And, is a completely rebuild Steinway in a way a new piano? And does not suffer problems from aged piano?
Cheers

Ah, the "Keys of Theseus" problem.

This seems to be a topic of constant debate here, but what I've gathered (as a disinterested lay observer) is:

1. Historically (50+ years ago), it was more frowned upon to replace the soundboard of a piano during restoration/rebuild, on the belief that the soundboard is critical to the character and tone of the instrument. The soundboard was seen as the heart of the instrument.

2. Today, it's common to replace the soundboard of a piano during restoration/rebuild, on the belief that the soundboard isn't critical to the character and tone of the instrument (that privilege having passed to the rim, plate, and other elements of material/construction). The soundboard is viewed more as a consumable, that can wear, tire, and it should be replaced as needed.

3. There are still expert parties who hold either positions 1 or 2 strongly.

4. Steinway themselves mostly care that whatever restoration is done, it must be done only by Steinway themselves, using genuine Steinway parts. Out of all piano makers, they appear to be alone in the position that work done by non-Steinway parties compromises the quality and provenance of the instrument. A genuine Steinway rebuild will include replacing the soundboard if deemed needed.

5. Not everyone considers an official Steinway rebuild to be the best course of action, partly because there is a belief that Steinway ignores the history of the instrument, guts it to the core and replaces everything with modern/current parts.

Thanks Gombessa. The rebuilder seem to be a exceptional technician with many generations worked on piano building & rebuilding. The owner was invited to study at Steinway Hamburg, I assume he knows what he's doing. And the piano speaks for itself. It could be a psychological thing when a rebuild 100 old piano sound new, or newer than a 40 year old piano of same make. Its also the most expansive "used" Steinway B I came across. I guess the overall design for model B haven't really change for over 100 years, model B design started in the 1880s if I recall.

btw their story, very fascinating to read: (I'm not affiliated with them)
https://pearl-piano.com/our-story

Changing the soundboard definitely changes the piano, however if done well, it can change it very much for the better.

Peter Grey Piano Doctor

I think most would say the soundboard is one of the most critical components in effecting the tone of the piano. But that doesn't mean one should keep it as is or just repair it if it's in poor condition. As others have already said, if one replaces the soundboard the tone may change from how it originally sounded(which no one knows) or how it sounds now, but that doesn't mean the tone will change for the worse. If the soundboard is in poor condition or has little life left, replacing the soundboard could bring a big improvement in the tone.

If you like the sound and touch and the piano passes inspection by an independent from the rebuilder and knowledgeable tech, I would not be at all concerned whether the rebuilt piano has the same soul. How old is the piano? Do they have a model B in the shop with everything replaced except the soundboard that you can compare the piano to?

I think that can easily be the case, and it depends a lot on what constitutes "poor" condition. It's possible that something can be in such poor condition that even the most inferior soundboard could yield a net positive result.

I was thinking more along the lines of preserving the character of the original instrument, which I presume a lot of people seek when they opt for a restoration rather than just buying another instrument. It seemed to me that the trend of opinions has shifted over recent generations as to whether the tone is likely to fundamentally shift or be preserved if a new soundboard is put in.

For a newcomer buyer, it probably matters less, they can always judge the instrument for what it currently is, regardless of what it was like before.

Both B are pretty old, 1910x, with soundboard replaced. They have an A and L next to it with everything replaced except the soundboard - they sounded good as well. Maybe a tad warmer and thicker. The new soundboard has a more focused, more clarity and perhaps a little thin- in a good way though

If an owner has fond memories of the piano (for instance from youth up) and is innately familiar with its sonic signature, there is risk involved with changing the SB as it WILL change that SS, particularly if the owner expects the rebuild to restore that SS to its original state. They need to be warned ahead that it will be different. However if everything is in such deplorable condition that there is no longer any SS, far less risk involved in changing. No risk if a potential owner has never heard it before. All new to them.

Peter Grey Piano Doctor

Greetings,
One thing missing from the comparison is that a "Steinway soundboard" is a fixed quantity. It ain't, as they are all different. There are good and not-so-good soundboards on 10 year old pianos. The installation of the board isn't some arcane secret that only exists in the factory, as there are a number of restoration firms that routinely replaced damaged boards and get results that surpass factory boards. I consider it a total sales pitch and little more to claim that only the maker can maintain whatever quality the piano originally had, and it might be pointed out that the factory stamp of authenticity is being placed on boards that are replaced by contracted shops, not some weathered veteran in Astoria.
Soundboards are non-durable, in that they do age and collapse. Some last a century, many are audibly compromised at 50 years or less. Listen for sustain in the 5th octave, and notice if the piano is particularly brilliant in that section, as both of the factors can indicate whether the board is still responsive or not. A board with life still in it will be able to play quite softly without being bright, yet still produce a brilliant tone when played with force. A weak board will often be camouflaged by brightness, which will be present at the softest levels.
Regards.

The difference in sound might be related to whether the soundboard was replaced or not but also to MANY other factors.

As a person who has used Steinway to restore a Steinway, please be aware that the above statement is not completely accurate. It is true that Steinway can gut it to the core and replace everything with modern parts (not counting major durable metal parts, like the harp and action bracket, which they typically strip and re-glaze). However, the amount of gutting/replacing is not a set issue. It is the *owner* who has full control of how much gets changed out, even if Steinway were to recommend the whole nine yards. In my case, there was a significant amount of the action that didn't change. That's because the original key tops were ivory and I wanted to keep those. In other words, if I had opted for replacing the ivory with plastic, then they would have proceeded to replace the underlying wood keys. I also could have kept the original soundboard if I wanted, though that would have been a bad choice.

John

Thanks guys, all very useful comments.
Looks like all of you are supporting the idea of replacing the soundboard if it’s done properly. Ok, my next question is, is there such a thing for Stika spruce to “open up” after certain age of playing?
For classical guitar and acoustic guitar, stika spruce is known to not have the optimal sound at new. Specially klin dried. There are some physical and chemical changes after years of playing and further natural drying. But piano is such complicated instrument, ie hammer gets brighter as they being played more, im not sure if any one can actually observe the soundboard change over years

So for NY Steinway new soundboards, let’s say model B. Are they made and sold by Steinway or anyone with Sitka spruce can make them.

High quality spruce is available,(at least for a while), from a variety of sources. However, it is not the material that is the major factor of a boards response. It is the skill of installation and the skill of setting the down bearing. The finest Sitka spruce will not make up for a poor setting of the bearing.
Regards,

Steven,
This thread from a few years ago may be of interest to you. It has the perspective of a lot of different rebuilders/technicians (a few of whom have commented on this thread, too):
https://forum.pianoworld.com/ubbthreads.php/topics/2843621/1.html

There are definitely different opinions depending on where people come from (geographically). I can’t imagine that the Toronto climate is easy on soundboards.

Also, here’s a thread that posed a question about whether soundboards improve over the first couple years. Again, a lot of different opinions on this: http://forum.pianoworld.com/ubbthreads.php/topics/3154789/1.html .

It’s not clear to me from your thread whether you want a piano that sounds and plays as close to a new piano as possible, or one that retains as many characteristics of what the piano was meant to sound and play like, when it was originally built. But if it were me and I were thinking about buying a rebuilt Steinway, my two questions would be whether I liked how the particular piano performed and whether the work done on it was done at a high level. When I was shopping for pianos, I definitely came across a few ‘full rebuilds’ that I did not like at all. But knowing the exact provenance of the soundboard would really not factor into my purchase decision. Rather, I’d think about how much I like the piano’s tone (which the soundboard is contributing to). If you do like the piano, it’s worth having someone knowledgeable look it over. The problem with this is that my impression is a lot of technicians do not have expertise in evaluating rebuilding work on these old pianos. The person you’d call to evaluate a 35 year old Yamaha upright may not be the person you want to call to evaluate something like this. I think you want someone who has a deeper knowledge of rebuilding pianos.

Thanks John for the clarification. What I had heard is that Steinway's approach to restoration tends towards making the pianos as close as possible to a new modern Steinway, as opposed to restoring and maintaining the character of the original instrument. And as such, they don't do what some other rebuilders might opt to, such as sourcing action parts matching the original materials/geometry, or using the original soundboard design/setting/specs. If a part is to be replaced, their process is to do so with a modern Steinway equivalent. I'm sure the owner has control over the level of rebuild, but the rebuild methodology is fairly "set in stone." Is that consistent with what you've experienced,


I have to wonder if this is a bit different with Steinway. Due to the company's position on restoration provenance, does it make a difference in value knowing/choosing a fully sanctioned Steinway rebuild, versus a more traditional one? When I was shopping, stores showing restored Steinways were very quick to volunteer that the rebuilds were done by Steinway, and irrespective of the quality of the piano, presumably that fact alone has an impact on value/price.

I agree that this is definitely a huge part of the marketing of these pianos, and the places where I saw rebuilt, restored, reconditioned, etc Steinways, people did mention who had done the work and the use of ‘Steinway parts.’ Dealers know that piano buyers will be visiting Steinway galleries, where they will hear the Steinway sales pitch, and I think dealers are proactive about addressing these potential concerns. One of the places I visited had a restored-by-them vs restored-by-Steinway side by side (they were both the same models, I believe Bs between 40 and 50 years old, but I didn’t take copious notes on them and my memory may certainly be faulty). They were very proud of their restoration, and I thought both pianos were really nice. I think both of these were 40 to 50 year old pianos. I didn’t jot down the prices on the two of them, and my memory isn’t serving me well here, but I don’t remember feeling surprised by the price of one vs the other. In another store, they had an old Steinway O (~100 years or more) rebuilt ‘with all Steinway parts,’ that I thought was absolutely terrible and the sticker price was 50k. Maybe the Steinway name and ‘all Steinway parts’ means someone was willing to pay something near 50k for this piano, but a cheap 1970s non-Viennese kimball (which I’m guessing had very very little reconditioning work, because who would bother on this kimball?) played and sounded better than the Model O. I think the buyers who just want a Steinway and don’t much care about playability are different buyers than the ones coming to these forums looking for advice about pianos that they want to be able to play.

On the ‘how much is it worth’ front, I have a few thoughts. I am sure there are people who buy Steinways because of the name on the fallboard, and for no other reason; some of these are pianos that no one would buy, but for the name on the fallboard. Some consumers will care about the provenance of the soundboard and other parts. Those who visit dealerships will probably hear from Steinway about Steinways vs ‘Steinwases,’ and I suspect this does influence a lot of sales. But that said, if someone is looking primarily at the private market, for a piano that says Steinway on the fallboard, do they really care where the parts came from? I have a hard time thinking that this really causes a lot of angst among the private sales consumers, either because all they want is something that says Steinway, or they’re looking for a piano that will perform a certain way, and either the piano does or does not perform that way. But I could well be wrong about this segment of consumers.

The OP seems to be someone who wants a piano that he can enjoy playing for many years. If it were me, I would prioritize finding a piano that I loved best at a price I could afford, rather than the piano that I know for sure has 100% all Steinway parts, including a Steinway soundboard, original or not, and was certified by Steinway. If I absolutely loved a piano that Steinway wants to call a ‘Steinwas,’ but a knowledgeable technician tells me that all is in excellent working order, then I wouldn’t let the Steinway marketing forces dissuade me from buying the piano. But we all have different perspectives on this, and I’m sure there are some who are really invested in things being completely 100% Steinway.

So glad Ed Foote chimed in here. Ed, you continue to be knowledgeable, articulate, and fair in all of your comments.


This statement above is what separates a fine board from a not so fine board. Anyone with experience can learn who the brokers are who deal in fine tone wood and get some beautiful material, but the labor, installation, and the final set up of the piano is going to make a huge difference in how that piano performs. I have seen errors in factory boards and in third party boards in this regard.

My best advice 1) is if you are in a situation where you are having YOUR piano rebuilt using a new board, play a number of instruments already rebuilt by the company involved. 2) If you are buying a rebuilt piano, judge the instrument on its merits and have an independent technician confirm that the instrument has no issues.

A "Steinway soundboard", IMHO, has no particular advantage in this regard.

My 2 cents,

If you weren't familiar with the piano previously, does it matter?

It may change, but what matters is the results.