2022 our 25th year online!

Welcome to the Piano World Piano Forums
Over 3 million posts about pianos, digital pianos, and all types of keyboard instruments.
Over 100,000 members from around the world.
Join the World's Largest Community of Piano Lovers (it's free)
It's Fun to Play the Piano ... Please Pass It On!

Shop our online store for music lovers
SEARCH
Piano Forums & Piano World
(ad)
Pianoteq
Steinway Spiro Layering
(ad)
Piano Life Saver - Dampp Chaser
Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver
(ad)
Wessell Nickel & Gross
PianoForAll
Who's Online Now
75 members (Appalachian, Andrew E., Catlady, accordeur, brennbaer, 17 invisible), 918 guests, and 345 robots.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
(ad)
Estonia Pianos
Estonia Pianos
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Hop To
#3230313 07/05/22 02:18 AM
Joined: Jul 2017
Posts: 2,365
M
Moo :) Offline OP
2000 Post Club Member
OP Offline
2000 Post Club Member
M
Joined: Jul 2017
Posts: 2,365
I am learning now the 3rd movement. A couple of chords sounded surprising.

Bar 169 - what exactly is this Eb,G,C# chord at the end of the bar - another augmented 6th chord going to D major (dominant of G minor). We go suddenly into the relative minor key with this?

Bar 229 - is it not a surprise to just stop on a diminished chord like this ?



Thanks

Moo :) #3230402 07/05/22 10:50 AM
Joined: Feb 2019
Posts: 3,455
S
3000 Post Club Member
Online Content
3000 Post Club Member
S
Joined: Feb 2019
Posts: 3,455
Yes augmented chord to go to D which is vi of F major, a typical cadence, vi, ii, V, I.

The purpose of the diminished is to create a sense of surprise or suspension, a delay before starting the cadence by going to a 6/4 on C, V of I.


Blüthner model 6
Moo :) #3230450 07/05/22 12:58 PM
Joined: Jul 2017
Posts: 2,365
M
Moo :) Offline OP
2000 Post Club Member
OP Offline
2000 Post Club Member
M
Joined: Jul 2017
Posts: 2,365
Thanks. Is 6/4 C = G,C,E?

Moo :) #3230451 07/05/22 12:59 PM
Joined: Jul 2017
Posts: 2,365
M
Moo :) Offline OP
2000 Post Club Member
OP Offline
2000 Post Club Member
M
Joined: Jul 2017
Posts: 2,365
What does V of I mean exactly?

Moo :) #3230466 07/05/22 01:31 PM
Joined: Feb 2019
Posts: 3,455
S
3000 Post Club Member
Online Content
3000 Post Club Member
S
Joined: Feb 2019
Posts: 3,455
Originally Posted by Moo :)
Thanks. Is 6/4 C = G,C,E?

Yes indeed.


Blüthner model 6
Moo :) #3230468 07/05/22 01:32 PM
Joined: Feb 2019
Posts: 3,455
S
3000 Post Club Member
Online Content
3000 Post Club Member
S
Joined: Feb 2019
Posts: 3,455
Originally Posted by Moo :)
What does V of I mean exactly?


The dominant of the tonic, whatever the tonic key is at a given point.


Blüthner model 6
Moo :) #3230541 07/05/22 06:18 PM
Joined: Feb 2019
Posts: 3,455
S
3000 Post Club Member
Online Content
3000 Post Club Member
S
Joined: Feb 2019
Posts: 3,455
BTW, another interesting question to understand the piece is what form is it using ?


Blüthner model 6
Sidokar #3230663 07/06/22 05:34 AM
Joined: Feb 2019
Posts: 3,455
S
3000 Post Club Member
Online Content
3000 Post Club Member
S
Joined: Feb 2019
Posts: 3,455
Originally Posted by Sidokar
BTW, another interesting question to understand the piece is what form is it using ?

Most last mouvements of Mozart sonatas are in rondo form or theme and variations.


Blüthner model 6
Sidokar #3230887 07/07/22 12:08 AM
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 999
500 Post Club Member
Offline
500 Post Club Member
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 999
The third movement is in sonata-allegro form.

Sidokar #3230996 07/07/22 12:34 PM
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 26,037
Gold Subscriber
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Offline
Gold Subscriber
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 26,037
Originally Posted by Sidokar
Originally Posted by Sidokar
BTW, another interesting question to understand the piece is what form is it using ?

Most last mouvements of Mozart sonatas are in rondo form or theme and variations.

I can find only one piano Sonata, KV284 in D major, where the last movement is in theme and variations form. There are several rondeau or rondo forms, however.

The Piano and Violin Sonata in A major, KV305 also has theme and variations as the final movement, but I don't have the complete Piano and Violin Sonatas to check those further.

Regards,


BruceD
- - - - -
Estonia 190
Moo :) #3230999 07/07/22 12:47 PM
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 26,037
Gold Subscriber
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Offline
Gold Subscriber
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 26,037
The Piano and Violin Sonata in F major, KV547 also has a final movement in theme and variation form.

That's as far as I have gone.

Regards,


BruceD
- - - - -
Estonia 190
BruceD #3231058 07/07/22 05:23 PM
Joined: Feb 2019
Posts: 3,455
S
3000 Post Club Member
Online Content
3000 Post Club Member
S
Joined: Feb 2019
Posts: 3,455
Originally Posted by BruceD
The Piano and Violin Sonata in F major, KV547 also has a final movement in theme and variation form.

That's as far as I have gone.

Regards,

Yes the rondo form is clearly more frequent. K332 has the 3rd mouvement in sonata form, like k330.


Blüthner model 6
Moo :) #3231145 07/08/22 03:08 AM
Joined: Jul 2017
Posts: 2,365
M
Moo :) Offline OP
2000 Post Club Member
OP Offline
2000 Post Club Member
M
Joined: Jul 2017
Posts: 2,365
How can you tell it's in a rondo form?

I am very confused as I learnt a rondo by Mozart, and my teacher said it's more like sonata form, and now you are telling me his sonatas are in rondo



Confusing

Moo :) #3231285 07/08/22 12:39 PM
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 24,012
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 24,012
The confusion is that the word "sonata" means two totally different things, and (kind of unfortunately) the two different meanings are often used together in the same context, meaning both different things.

-- It means those whole pieces that are called "sonatas."
-- It also means a certain kind of form -- and very often, especially for the 1st movement of "sonatas," the form is sonata form.

And, very often, movements of sonatas are in "rondo" form, especially the last movements.


Another possible confusion, and maybe this is the main place you're coming from, is that some movements or pieces are sort of a hybrid of "sonata" and "rondo" forms -- and those are sometimes called "sonata rondo" form.


BTW, I hope you won't tell me that none of this has anything to do with what you were wondering. ha

Moo :) #3231426 07/09/22 04:29 AM
Joined: Feb 2019
Posts: 3,455
S
3000 Post Club Member
Online Content
3000 Post Club Member
S
Joined: Feb 2019
Posts: 3,455
Originally Posted by Moo :)
How can you tell it's in a rondo form?

I am very confused as I learnt a rondo by Mozart, and my teacher said it's more like sonata form, and now you are telling me his sonatas are in rondo



Confusing

I think Mark already responded. A rondo is typically something like ABACA, with a refrain in the home key and contrasting couplets or episodes in other keys (typically Fur Elise for example). You can add more episodes too. The sonata rondo is a variant which combines the rondo form with the sonata form, something like ABACABA.

K485 is actually in spirit a rondo, and has also some elements of a sonata form, but is not really nor a true rondo nor a sonata rondo. It has an internal repeat like a sonata, but no true recap. The various episodes are also not contrasted but reusing the main theme components. The structure is ABAB C ADAEA, AB being a kind of repeated presentation, C the development, but no recap and instead 2 more episodes, alternating with the refrain.


Blüthner model 6
Moo :) #3231577 07/09/22 03:56 PM
Joined: Jul 2017
Posts: 2,365
M
Moo :) Offline OP
2000 Post Club Member
OP Offline
2000 Post Club Member
M
Joined: Jul 2017
Posts: 2,365
Thank you. A sonata with a subject / theme (A), a development (B) and a recapitulation (?) section

Do you call this ABA or is it ABC (as the recapitulation is not the same as the subject)?

Last edited by Moo :); 07/09/22 03:58 PM.
Moo :) #3231578 07/09/22 04:01 PM
Joined: Jul 2017
Posts: 2,365
M
Moo :) Offline OP
2000 Post Club Member
OP Offline
2000 Post Club Member
M
Joined: Jul 2017
Posts: 2,365
Thank you mark. I didn't know any of this. I remember k545 is a rondo in last movement but never thought about it. I even have some sobata with theme and variations in

Moo :) #3231593 07/09/22 05:23 PM
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 24,012
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 24,012
Originally Posted by Moo :)
...A sonata with a subject / theme (A), a development (B) and a recapitulation (?) section

Yeah, except you don't call the development "B."
You don't call it anything but "development."

Terminology like "ABA" is usually reserved for a thing other than either "sonata" or "rondo."
Like, most minuet and scherzo movements of sonatas and concertos (and I guess symphonies") are ABA, meaning that there's a first part, then a middle section (usually contrasting to the first part), then the first part again.

Moo :) #3231612 07/09/22 07:24 PM
Joined: Feb 2019
Posts: 3,455
S
3000 Post Club Member
Online Content
3000 Post Club Member
S
Joined: Feb 2019
Posts: 3,455
To understand, the rondo is the instrumental version of a french vocal form the rondeau. The rondeau was initially a poem with a particular form. Its musical song form is very old and there are already polyphonic composition in the 13th century like this one. The form is AB aAab AB with a musical refrain A or a and a couplet B or b, where the lower case is same music but different text.

The rondeau form was quite used in french baroque music. The sonata form on the other hand derives from a binary instrumental form which developed into rounded binary ABA and eventually into the more complex sonata form.

Text in old middle age french. Dont try google on it !





Blüthner model 6

Moderated by  Brendan, Kreisler 

Link Copied to Clipboard
(ad)
Piano Buying Guide
The Definitive Piano Buying Guide
(ad)
PianoDisc

PianoDisc
(ad)
Faust Harrison Pianos
Faust Harrison 100+ Steinway pianos
(ad)
Mason & Hamlin Pianos
New Topics - Multiple Forums
Practicing is Fun!
by malkin - 08/19/22 05:52 PM
Trade-in question
by RealPlayer - 08/19/22 03:09 PM
Kawai CA-67 (used) vs CA-49?
by JasonD - 08/19/22 02:47 PM
Download Sheet Music
Virtual Sheet Music - Classical Sheet Music Downloads
What's Hot!!
FREE June Newsletter is Here!
--------------------
Forums RULES, Terms of Service & HELP
(updated 06/06/2022)
-------------------
Music Store Going Out of Business Sale!
---------------------
Mr. PianoWorld's Original Composition
---------------------
Sell Your Piano on our world famous Piano Forums!
---------------------
Posting Pictures on the Forums
-------------------
ADVERTISE on Piano World
Forum Statistics
Forums43
Topics214,471
Posts3,217,629
Members106,122
Most Online15,252
Mar 21st, 2010
Please Support Our Advertisers

Faust Harrison 100+ Steinways

Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver

 Best of Piano Buyer

PianoTeq Bechstein
Visit our online store for gifts for music lovers

Virtual Sheet Music - Classical Sheet Music Downloads



 
Help keep the forums up and running with a donation, any amount is appreciated!
Or by becoming a Subscribing member! Thank-you.
Donate   Subscribe
 
Our Piano Related Classified Ads
| Dealers | Tuners | Lessons | Movers | Restorations | Pianos For Sale | Sell Your Piano |

Advertise on Piano World
| Subscribe | Piano World | PianoSupplies.com | Advertise on Piano World |
| |Contact | Privacy | Legal | About Us | Site Map | Free Newsletter | MapleStreetMusicShop.com - Our store in Cornish Maine


© copyright 1997 - 2022 Piano World ® all rights reserved
No part of this site may be reproduced without prior written permission
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.5