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Greetings folks. I'm in the market for a new piano, and much to my surprise before I started this journey, I'm having a lot of trouble finding the right product or solution to meet what I'm going for. I guess my requirements must be a bit out-there if so few products I've looked at come close to supporting them, and you can let me have it in a moment after you've read them. I'm looking for suggestions or even equally out-there ideas!

About me: I had a couple years of piano lessons as a kid before transitioning to brass instruments for the school bands. Thereafter I had an inexpensive General MIDI keyboard for arranging and having fun playing along to songs in appropriate voices (strings, brass, synth, pianos) hobby-wise. I'm now interested in learning piano more properly whilst still being able to do all the fun side stuff and have it fit the decor of a household too, and that's what I want to buy an instrument to do. Not just one of those things, all of them.

Specifically, the piano should have:

• A warm piano patch. (SK ConcertGrand for Kawai, or that Bosendorfer Imperial on some Clavinovas)
• A good pipe organ patch.
• A full set of GM instruments, drums, sfx, mapped to play back MID files correctly.
• Additional voices are a plus, especially good quality ones if we're dropping a few grand on gear.
• MIDI in/out/thru standard ports (5-DIN?). Will be used for MIDI-in (sound playback) and MIDI-out (to control Rock Band 3 Pro Keys).
• Self-contained built-in speakers with Line-in ports.
• Line-out 1/4" jack(s) and headphone outs.
• USB-to-Host MIDI helpful (but not sufficient by itself).
• Full 88-key board for learning piano.
• An attractive furniture cabinet that looks good in the room and hides all the wires.
• Action: no known preference. Heresy 'round these parts I bet, but I'm not at a level yet where subtle differences would be meaningful to me, and I'd be happy to have anything so long as it met all my other requirements for an attractive, functional, all-in-one box.

That last bullet point is pretty important, in that I'm ideally looking for one self-contained instrument that I can flip on and start playing right away. If at all possible, I don't want to depend on a laptop, iPad, or other external sound module as a permanent subcontractor for functionality.

Units I've looked at:

Kawai CN39: This is the only DP I've found so far that meets all the criteria on the list -- SK ConcertGrand, Full GM2 support, 355 voices, cabinet -- so it is what I think that I want. But wouldn't you know it, I've had a dickens of a time trying to buy one the last few days. One dealer informed me that it had been out of production for 8 months now thus finding any stock is rather unlikely. Well then. I'm still looking for this one, but with the knowledge that I better find some backup options just in case. Hence this thread.

The upcoming Kawai CN301 that is slated to replace the CN39 is removing all those MIDI features I cared about and dropping down to 30ish voices like their other models, so it's right out. Why, Kawai?!

Kawai MP7SE: This stage piano looks to be the second closest out of Kawai's line, and it even has pitchbenders and other extra MIDI features that the CN39 does not. That's a plus. Or at least it will be once I learn how to use them properly. Downsides are that it has no wood cabinet nor internal speakers, so unless there's a pretty DIY cabinet solution that can support the piano and hide away some speakers (Ikea Besta?), an MP+monitors setup would make my living room look like a messy stage and that's not good. Question about the MP7SE though: I see that its 200-odd voices are selected in banks of 8 using buttons on the unit; do they still belong to their GM program numbers otherwise? What happens if you ask the MP7SE to play a MIDI file, does it do all 16 channels with drums or just whatever's on channel 1? Would love some creative ideas on how to make this setup work because the MP7SE is much more available at the present time.

Kawai DG30: This is the guts of a CN39 placed inside the shell of a baby-baby grand (less than 3' deep). So, same functionality, which is good, but over twice the price of the CN39, which is bad and certainly out of the budget I was hoping to spend ($3000ish USD). On the other hand, some folks do claim to have stock of this, which counts for something. I'm considering this a last-resort potential.

So, that brings me to the main crux of the thread. With all that background information, are there any tutorials or DIY hacks out there to make an MP7SE setup more family decor friendly? Or are there other units from other brands I should be looking at? I've been mostly looking at Kawai because I love the SK ConcertGrand sound and don't like the default Yamaha EX or Roland piano patches as much, but maybe there's something else that sounds like the SK that I should be looking at and don't know about. (e.g. I was impressed with the Bosendorfer Imperial patch I ran across earlier today, but know little else about the Clavinova line yet).

you'd want to try out the kdp120, imho the cn39 isn't so great. actions such as rh3 with letoff bumpers feel uneven. I love kawai's rhc action on the 120, it's the most even feeling and provides extremely precise/consistent control, because it doesn't have the letoff bumper. their more expensive wood actions are erratic in terms of midi output/ control, it's tolerable and if you spend alot of time doing calibrating and regulating, it's tameable.

most of those things on the list probably won't matter to you much down the road for personal use. the mp7se is a good stage piano, if you don't use it on stage, you're paying alot extra for those features. the quality of the voices. i'm not saying they're bad, but compared to what's available in professional vsts, let's call them so-so.

Tbh "good quality voices" and built in sounds are almost an oxymoron in this price range/category! I don't mean that in a bad way, just that with few exceptions, I don't think most digital piano models have a huge lead over others in the quality of their non-piano sounds.

Still, since action isn't a priority for you, that does open up your options a bit. It looks to me like the Casio AP710 almost checks all your boxes.

* It has a cabinet design
* It has three main grand piano samples: A Bechstein, a Steinway, and a Bosebdorfer. I think the Bechstein and Bosebdorfer are particularly good. Actually, I like Casio's Bosebdorfer sample more than Yamaha's lol.
* The other sounds are above average imo
* It costs less than $3000
* It has all the connectivity you asked for. Midi 5-Din in and out, USB, 1/4 in and out.

However I'm not clear if it can handle general midi playback for instruments it doesn't actually have. It only has 26 sounds. Would it not be possible to use your other keyboard for this if that's a problem?

A few more thoughts...


* As far as aesthetics are concerned, keep in mind that most cabinet-style digital pianos, including the aforementioned Casio, have their ports on the front or directly under the keybed, not the back. So if you plan to frequently connect to other devices, I'm not sure you're actually getting a much cleaner or living-room friendly setup than simply using a slab piano with a nice stand and a bit of cable management. This was one reason I ultimately went with a slab.

* You should perhaps actually consider the idea of using a sound module. Off the top of my head, it seems the upcoming Dexibell SX8 module (or the old SX7, if you can find one) would allow you to pick any digital piano you like, or even buy used, and still do everything on your list. It might be easier to hide the module than to hide a pair of speakers.for the MP7SE, for example.

The Dexibell has what I consider to be the best sounds on the market outside of full-fledged VSTs. And jt works as a USB host, so you could buy pretty much any cabinet piano you like, connect it to the SX8 via USB, and still have the 5-din midi in and out free. If you buy it from Thomman Music across the pond, you could get it for a lot cheaper than in the States too.

The nice thing about going with the dexibells module, in theory, is that you could load your own sounds and and upgrade you action down the road while still having best-in-clsss (or near it) sound quality.

Hello,

@Azalingchan, If you haven't already, take a look at this comparison page:

MP7SE vs. CN39

Notice that the MP7SE has a better quality piano engine (HI-XL), a drawbar organ simulator and is an overall much better match with your musical/experimental goals. It is the wonderful beast that does tick your boxes; just add a stand you make yourself or have one made (notice that the CN39 stand is just a few planks/boards(!) made to look fancy, such could be replicated for your MP7SE with a little basic wit and skill. Add speakers to your liking, keeping an eye on being able to upgrade those if you like later on. Add the Kawai GFP-3 unit for full (and quality) three-pedal functionality that also completes the looks.

I can understand having aesthetics in the equation, yet first and foremost: Form Follows Function!

The DG30 is an overly expensive no-go, all you pay (substantially) for is the looks.

Cheers and happy decision making,

HZ

All that being said (sorry, I hit "post" early by accident), I do think the MP7SE makes the most sense if you don't want to go the module route. It's clearly the most advanced and flexible of the bunch.

I went through a similar aesthetic predicament when I purchased my MP11SE. I thought a cabinet piano would look cleaner, and it's hard to find good looking and sturdy stands for a living room aesthetic. But I wanted the MP11SE, and I also thought a cabinet piano might look too bulky in a cramped Brooklyn apartment.

Ultimately I decided to just build the easiest stand I could think of that would fit my home's aesthetic (I have no woodworking skills at all lol). Bought four hairpin legs and found the right size plank of wood, screwed it together, put the MP11SE on it, and I was good to go.



I was going for something kinda like a an old Rhodes or wurli, kinda midcentury modern. It's definitely not everyone's aesthetic but it fits my vibe =] (note that most of the wires in the image aren't actually from the DP setup)

Anyway, this probably isn't the look for you but point is I'm sure you could figure out something to your tastes! At one point I thought of buying some hollow legs I could route the wires through, for instance.

Hello,

@napilopez, If this forum had a Like option, I'd forcefully hit that button for your above (and other) posts 🙂.

Cheers and keep up the good work,

HZ

Thanks! I try =]

Also just realized autocorrect consistently corrected Bosendorfer to Bosebdorfer for some reason lol.

Thanks, all, for the great feedback so far! I'm going to spend some time researching the products you mentioned to learn more about them, but I also wanted to go ahead and respond to questions and follow up with a few more right away.

Do you mean the KDP120 (RHC2 action they say) or ES120 (RHC1 action, I guess)? I have to ask because I've seen you post about the ES110 a lot in other threads as I was reading before posting, and confusingly Kawai has both KDP and ES lines with the same number following the letters. To make sure I understand, it's the RHC-style action in the KDP line that you think would work better for my use case than the RH3 action in units like the CN39, and that's the main reason you suggest considering the KDP120?

You could be right, and it's an interesting point to hear. Playing out the possibility: the KDP120 is missing most sounds and effects, but for any time I'm wanting to play something other than the SK concertgrand, these sounds could be added by purchasing a sound module then running Line-out of the module to.. well I'm not sure because the KDP120 doesn't seem to have a Line-in port looking at the spec sheet. I guess it's external monitor speakers then? The sound module would take care of full MIDI playback as well, I suppose. The KDP also doesn't have a MIDI out port, which I'd need to connect to a piece of equipment with a 5-DIN MIDI input, so where would I get that? Maybe USB->Host to a sound module, and make sure the module had MIDI out? A bit complicated with the routing, but it might could be made to work. Am I understanding what this would take correctly?

I'm curious what you mean when you say that you think the functionality I had listed won't matter to me so much down the road. Why not? What do you think might start mattering more? Genuine question.

Hah, you got me, napilopez! I should have known better than to use such an imprecise term in a forum full of musicians. The voices I'm looking for don't need to be best-ever, which I am now learning is the realm of PC VSTs; they should just sound like a reasonable representation of the instrument where it should be difficult to tell it's being played by a synth. For a concrete example, the Roland default piano tone, even today (the meaning of which I'll get to in a moment), sounds vaguely artificial and I can immediately tell that it's a computer generated synth being played. Contrast with the SK ConcertGrand on any YouTube demo of a Kawai DP, and if I close my eyes I literally cannot tell someone isn't playing an actual acoustic piano. I love it. In the best case, I want to be fooled like that for as many instruments as possible.

To give context, which will definitely date me: once upon a time I had a SoundBlaster 16 card (FM synthesis) for my PC, which was bad-level MIDI, but it worked. When I replaced that with a Roland SCM-15AT SoundCanvas card, it was an amazing upgrade that I got tons of use out of over the years. Today I'm hoping to find a similar leap in voice quality over what I last had, which is that 1990s SoundCanvas and the voices of a 1990s Yamaha PSR220 keyboard. I suspect the correct answer is "almost anything at all made today will fit the bill", but I also don't want to make assumptions without asking... (The Roland piano patch in videos today is very similar to what I remember the SCM15 sounding like).

* In regards to the new instrument, thank you for the suggestion of the Casio. I'll add it onto the shortlist to research! To answer your question, I can't use my old equipment to process MIDI any longer, so I'll need something new, either built into the piano or otherwise. (I kept the PC with the SCM-15AT and the PSR220 keyboard alive for 18 years, but both finally gave up the ghost a few years back).

* In regards to a sound module, thank you for the suggestion of the Dexibel. That company's new to me, so I'm curious to check out their offerings! I'm glad you asked me to reconsider on the point of a sound module in particular, because it may end up being the best method of achieving what I'm trying to. Although I hoped to avoid an external box and the associated wires for the living room, it's true that a small module can be pretty easily concealed so it's the least concerning of the "subcontractors". VSTs might be cool, but I wouldn't want to have to depend on a laptop for my main sound functions, even though it might be really useful to augment with something like that later. In order to use a Dexibel module, what connectivity feature(s) would the keyboard need to have to best talk to it? (Just USB MIDI out and Line-In, if using piano internal speakers?)

* Oh nice! I like what you did with your MP11SE. Thanks for sharing that photo. That's just the kind of idea I was looking for, how to take a slab piano but make it look reasonable in a living space. That does look much more pleasing than the typical X or Z keyboard stands for sure. Thought I might be considered weird for caring about aesthetics and stage piano functionality in the same sentence, but nope! I'm glad to see this is ground that has been tread before. What speakers are you using here with your MP11SE? Are they basically higher-end self-powered computer speakers?

I was worried that my living room might have to have speakers on stands, like ones shown in this bundle https://www.kraftmusic.com/kawai-mp7se-stage-piano-complete-studio-bundle.html

Thanks again for all the feedback so far, and I'll take some time to learn about some of those suggestions. So far I'm leaning towards the 7SE with some powered speakers and building a stand for it, as that'd also still come out to less than the cost of a CN39 if I could get one. (well, depending on what speakers I bought, that is.) Much appreciated!

If going Slab piano add Yamaha P515 to your list. It has plenty of extra sounds and USB-Audio. Which means you can transmit MIDI and Audio over the USB cable to a computer without buying an audio interface. Makes it much simpler if you want to do that. Also I wouldn't rule out a Roland from youtube videos/audio. IMHO they sound good when you are sitting at the piano playing. Go try one out if you can and take your set of headphones that you like too.

Peace

Glad I could help! To answer your questions and address some points.

* Indeed, the Dexibell would only require USB and a line connection. Actually, if your piano supports audio through USB, then you'd only need the USB cable! Plus the power adapter of course. It's pricey, but the sounds are seriously good -- and you can download more/customize them from Dexibell's website, as well as import a myriad of soundfont files. Here's one demo video with various built-in sounds:



And here is a comparison of Dexibell's 6 'Platinum' Piano sounds (these are downloadable sounds with extra high quality, but the non-platinum ones are still some of the best out there). It's played on one of Dexibell cabinet pianos, but the same sounds are available for the module.



The Dexibell route is definitely a bit convoluted, but if you could find a used/refurb cabinet piano for less than $2000 and order it from Thomann in the UK, it seems you could stay under budget and do everything you want.

* The speakers are the iLoud Micro Monitors (~$299), although I've recently upgraded to the larger (but still compact) iLoud MTM. But even the smaller iLoud Micro Monitors are IMO better than the built in speakers on any digital piano I've heard until you get to the $5,000+ price range. I think the Micro monitors are small enough that they should still fit on the MP7SE, if you want to avoid using speaker stands. I've tested speakers for a living the last few years and although sometimes the ilouds aren't super pretty and they can't play super-duper loud, they really are some of the best value offerings on the market. By the way, they are also available in black, if that suits your aesthetic better.

* With regards to roland -- I think it really does depend on which model you're listening to. They use various different technologies. But for some people the modeling sound sounds worse than others. For me I go back and forth -- I think the attack soudns worse on modelled pianos but the resonances sound more alive. Definitely give a roland a try in person and see if you don't feel better about them. Their pianos are also super customizable as they are modelled.

* When it comes to slab pianos, many of them do have quite decent official stands. The P515 is definitely worth checking out. Lots of solid sounds, a very decent piano sample, the connectivity you're looking for, and IMO it looks decent enough with its official stand.