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Originally Posted by Gombessa
I know it's not intuitive and I welcome others' thoughts, but I think I ascribe to the "pianist sits at the worst seat in the house" philosophy. When seated at a grand, the soundboard is facing up and down and the lid reflects the sound away from you. At an upright, your face is right against the soundboard and the main reflecting wall, with a typical placement. I feel like the sound is just more directed at you with the upright, similarly to if you were seated in the audience facing the open lid of the grand (which I don't doubt would be much louder on the large grand).

When I sit with my daughter as she practices on the grand, it never sounds loud. But if I sit 4 ft away on the couch, my ears can quickly start hurting and I have to move away.

Very interesting. I just read that sound radiation patterns in a grand piano show position dependent variation in level that can be 10 dB or more. (see here, page 163 ff). That is gigantic.

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Originally Posted by pianogabe
Very interesting. I just read that sound radiation patterns in a grand piano show position dependent variation in level that can be 10 dB or more. (see here, page 163 ff). That is gigantic.

Link?

https://edisciplinas.usp.br/pluginfile.php/3037007/mod_resource/content/1/MeyerJ%20%5B2009%5D%20Acoustics%20and%20the%20performance%20of%20music%20manual%20for%20acousticians%2C%20audio.pdf


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Originally Posted by 80k
Yea, this might be why I never thought loudness would be a problem for myself as the player since I never found a problem with small practice rooms with large pianos. Now I'm wondering if it will be so loud as to be a nuisance late at night for neighbors or someone sleeping in the house on the second floor (the piano is on the first floor). But in that case, it seems it's not really the small room that is the problem.

80k,

My Kawai GX-2 is in a different setup from yours, so I can't say for sure whether it will be too big/loud for your room or not. I put mine in an open living space (living-kitchen-dining room) of about 700 sq ft with a ceiling height of about 8.6 ft. I play with the music rack up and never with the lid up. This piano has quite a warm, soft and creamy tone, so it doesn't feel uncomfortable to my ears when I play at all. It can be heard pretty clearly from all other rooms in my apartment though. My husband often has online meetings in a room about 18ft from the piano, and he says it doesn't bother him. My normal practice is usually in the 65-80 decibel range when I measure at the bench. My mom has a 53'' Kawai upright in a bigger room than mine with higher ceiling, and I actually find it much louder than the GX-2.

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Just a thought, why not put the grand on biggest room of your house, being a centerpiece it deserves to be?

What are people doing in other rooms not suitable for grand? Sitting? Watching tv? How many sq meters does that require? Priorities...

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Originally Posted by Midna
My Kawai GX-2 is in a different setup from yours, so I can't say for sure whether it will be too big/loud for your room or not. I put mine in an open living space (living-kitchen-dining room) of about 700 sq ft with a ceiling height of about 8.6 ft.
Your piano room is around 7 times!! the size so any comparison makes no sense.

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Hi 80K, I am a new member who joined this forum very recently smile

May I share a few thoughts with you, not with the room size but rather the choice of piano. I have been using a few Kawai pianos at my current home including an upright K80E, a baby grand RX1 (165cm) and more recently a Shigeru Kawai SK2 (180cm) which was just delivered last month (May 2022). What I realized is the SK2 actually sound much more delicate, subtle, refined and controlled than my previous RX1 despite the larger size and 15cm differences. It didn't feel any louder at all. As for my previous RX1, it has lots of unwanted resonance both from the lowest and highest notes which drove me crazy. I need to put up lots of acoustic treatment to solve the problem. Now, I could even remove most of the acoustic treatments for better sound projection. My feeling is the quality of the piano may sometimes be more important than the size itself related to this issue.

Another suggestion is will you consider buying a Shigeru Kawai SK2 instead of the GX2? I am not sure in the united states but in my city the price difference is not really a deal breaker. When I tried them side by side at the piano showroom, the differences with the overall quality, sound and action feel is enormous, and in my opinion far exceeding the price difference! I know in paper they are very similar but in reality they are not. And it makes up even bigger differences when played at a smaller room at my home compared to the RX1 (previous model of the GX series). To me, it's really a big surprise!

Lastly, I do feel the individual piano technician who tunes the piano will have a great effect regarding the overall resonance of the bass and treble section and it could improve the adaptation of your piano in a relatively small environment if you have a right person to do the job for you.

Cheers!!


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Originally Posted by Withindale
Link?

The link still worked for me a minute ago, but now it doesn't. It is a 9.5 Mb pdf of Jürgen Meyer: Acoustics and the Performance of Music. Manual for Acousticians, Audio Engineers, Musicians, Architects and Musical Instruments Makers.

Just found the link through google, so perhaps there are copyright issues? Looks like a great book. Springer publisher so probably $$$$.

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The main problem is not necessarily going to be loudness, but whether you're getting optimum use of the long bass strings. Without a certain amount of volume and length in the room, the bass won't be allowed to unfold in a useful, uninterrupted way. The French doors should provide most of what you need for that. My guess is that you might have to move the piano around a little to make sure you don't hit some weird acoustic node in the room. But there is no reason it shouldn't produce useful results to the player. Many practice studios in music schools aren't much larger than that, and comfortably fit Steinway Ms or similar.

Chamber music or performing for friends is another story. Anyone wanting to hear you will effectively have his head under the lid. But for your pleasure, it should work out just fine.

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Originally Posted by kre
Just a thought, why not put the grand on biggest room of your house, being a centerpiece it deserves to be?

What are people doing in other rooms not suitable for grand? Sitting? Watching tv? How many sq meters does that require? Priorities...


In households with a family, the family naturally becomes the priority. I’m sure the OP has already considered room options, as this was also the designated room for the upright piano


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Originally Posted by Simcity
Hi 80K, I am a new member who joined this forum very recently smile

May I share a few thoughts with you, not with the room size but rather the choice of piano. I have been using a few Kawai pianos at my current home including an upright K80E, a baby grand RX1 (165cm) and more recently a Shigeru Kawai SK2 (180cm) which was just delivered last month (May 2022). What I realized is the SK2 actually sound much more delicate, subtle, refined and controlled than my previous RX1 despite the larger size and 15cm differences. It didn't feel any louder at all. As for my previous RX1, it has lots of unwanted resonance both from the lowest and highest notes which drove me crazy. I need to put up lots of acoustic treatment to solve the problem. Now, I could even remove most of the acoustic treatments for better sound projection. My feeling is the quality of the piano may sometimes be more important than the size itself related to this issue.

Another suggestion is will you consider buying a Shigeru Kawai SK2 instead of the GX2? I am not sure in the united states but in my city the price difference is not really a deal breaker. When I tried them side by side at the piano showroom, the differences with the overall quality, sound and action feel is enormous, and in my opinion far exceeding the price difference! I know in paper they are very similar but in reality they are not. And it makes up even bigger differences when played at a smaller room at my home compared to the RX1 (previous model of the GX series). To me, it's really a big surprise!

Lastly, I do feel the individual piano technician who tunes the piano will have a great effect regarding the overall resonance of the bass and treble section and it could improve the adaptation of your piano in a relatively small environment if you have a right person to do the job for you.

Cheers!!


The suggested sales price in the US for an GX 2 is $36,000
The suggested sales price for an SK2 is $57,000

Per the original post, the OP has played all available pianos in her price and size range


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OP also asked about 1) the neighbors and 2) someone sleeping upstairs from the piano.

Re neighbors, how close are they to the room and the wall where the piano will be?

Re someone sleeping above the piano, I would guess they’ll hear it. Whether it will be a problem is hard to predict and depends on the person sleeping.

My husband often falls asleep on the couch while I’m playing the next room, but I don’t think many people would do the same.


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Originally Posted by Simcity
Another suggestion is will you consider buying a Shigeru Kawai SK2 instead of the GX2? I am not sure in the united states but in my city the price difference is not really a deal breaker. When I tried them side by side at the piano showroom, the differences with the overall quality, sound and action feel is enormous, and in my opinion far exceeding the price difference! I know in paper they are very similar but in reality they are not. And it makes up even bigger differences when played at a smaller room at my home compared to the RX1 (previous model of the GX series). To me, it's really a big surprise!

Thanks for the suggestion! I did try the SK2 and the price is double the GX2 and completely out of my price range, unfortunately. However, I actually did not like the SK2 any more than the GX2. I was also surprised how much I liked the GX2 more than old RX2's.

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Originally Posted by ShiroKuro
OP also asked about 1) the neighbors and 2) someone sleeping upstairs from the piano.

Re neighbors, how close are they to the room and the wall where the piano will be?

I would be playing the piano with my back facing the front of the house, so anyone walking on the sidewalk will hear it pretty well. I haven't had any complaints about my upright and my neighbors are actually pretty loud themselves, so I'm hoping it's not going to be a problem. :-)

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In college my piano professor had two beautiful steinway grand pianos in a studio no larger than 20 sq feet and they sounded amazing.

Last edited by Lakeviewsteve; 06/25/22 07:00 PM.

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Originally Posted by Lakeviewsteve
In college my piano professor had two beautiful steinway grand pianos in a studio no larger than 20 sq feet and they sounded amazing.
Do you mean 20'x20'? I don't think even one piano can fit in 20 sq feet.

It wouldn't be surprising that a 20'x20' space would adequate space for a 7' piano, And the fact that there were two of them doesn't mean the sound volume was doubled unless they were both played at the same time.

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My 7 foot is I feel mostly on the loud side in it's small room. Played normally, it happily pumps out 90 - 100 dB. With my tuner recently we measured north.of 110db.
Would i say don't get the piano you want, no of course not, but be aware you may have to make other changes IF your chosen piano turns out to be loud in your room.
Sometimes if I want to play a loud piece, I'll wear ear protection! Currently I am experimenting with sound deadening panels and it does seem to be working.
Just doing a few checks whilst I type.....
Background noise about 35 dB
Press sustain pedal 45 dB
Light touch middle of the keyboard peaks about 80db and falls rapidly
Lively playing average 95db
Room size is 10 X 13 feet with an 8 foot ceiling which I might take down so that I have more space above for the sound to develop. Above the ceiling is a roof space and will add from zero to about 4 feet in height.
Probably none of this helps, but this is my experience and if you're local to me, please pop in to hear for yourself 😊

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Probably you are right. Your room is miserably small. It will be loud with the lid open IMO.

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Originally Posted by busa
My 7 foot is I feel mostly on the loud side in it's small room. Played normally, it happily pumps out 90 - 100 dB. With my tuner recently we measured north.of 110db.
Would i say don't get the piano you want, no of course not, but be aware you may have to make other changes IF your chosen piano turns out to be loud in your room.
Sometimes if I want to play a loud piece, I'll wear ear protection! Currently I am experimenting with sound deadening panels and it does seem to be working.
Just doing a few checks whilst I type.....
Background noise about 35 dB
Press sustain pedal 45 dB
Light touch middle of the keyboard peaks about 80db and falls rapidly
Lively playing average 95db
Room size is 10 X 13 feet with an 8 foot ceiling which I might take down so that I have more space above for the sound to develop. Above the ceiling is a roof space and will add from zero to about 4 feet in height.
Probably none of this helps, but this is my experience and if you're local to me, please pop in to hear for yourself 😊
Besides sound deadening panels you could try having your tech install acoustic foam underneath and/or on top of the soundboard. The advantage of this approach is it's relatively cheap and can be reversed in a few minutes if you don't like the result. I did it for my M&H BB because my neighbor complained about my practicing and I liked the result. It cost around $300 for the the materials and labor. This approach was apparently a common fix for Yamaha Disklavier pianos that, at least some time ago, could be quite loud.

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Originally Posted by pianoloverus
Originally Posted by busa
My 7 foot is I feel mostly on the loud side in it's small room. Played normally, it happily pumps out 90 - 100 dB. With my tuner recently we measured north.of 110db.
Would i say don't get the piano you want, no of course not, but be aware you may have to make other changes IF your chosen piano turns out to be loud in your room.
Sometimes if I want to play a loud piece, I'll wear ear protection! Currently I am experimenting with sound deadening panels and it does seem to be working.
Just doing a few checks whilst I type.....
Background noise about 35 dB
Press sustain pedal 45 dB
Light touch middle of the keyboard peaks about 80db and falls rapidly
Lively playing average 95db
Room size is 10 X 13 feet with an 8 foot ceiling which I might take down so that I have more space above for the sound to develop. Above the ceiling is a roof space and will add from zero to about 4 feet in height.
Probably none of this helps, but this is my experience and if you're local to me, please pop in to hear for yourself 😊
Besides sound deadening panels you could try having your tech install acoustic foam underneath and/or on top of the soundboard. The advantage of this approach is it's relatively cheap and can be reversed in a few minutes if you don't like the result. I did it for my M&H BB because my neighbor complained about my practicing and I liked the result. It cost around $300 for the the materials and labor. This approach was apparently a common fix for Yamaha Disklavier pianos that, at least some time ago, could be quite loud.

Thank you! i like that suggestion... i shall certainly give it a try as i imagine i will be able to leave the piano open for clarity and kill the volume somewhat smile

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