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Something totally different, indeed! (Isn't this one of the same pieces people have been listening to and playing for the last 180 years or so?)
But regarding the piano itself...yes, this is admittedly a little uncharacteristic of expectations. It sounds very good to me. My initial thought was...a little bright, though?
That's interesting, because Fine distinctly states that "Sauter is considered in Europe to be a medium-high quality piano". So is this just misinformation? It's based on something, surely. Have things changed drastically since the time of publication? Ideally, I'd play them all, gladly. But that's easier said than done. In the meantime, I can still read about them, and much has been said. And it isn't all along the lines of what you say at all. In the Fine's book I have, technically the Bosendorfer is the highest rated -- but this is only taking into account a difference in "information" (a 0.5 point of difference). Otherwise, Bluthner, Forster, Steingraeber, also all have the same ratings.
You're using the Piano Book from over 20 years ago for this reference, right? I wouldn't call that information current anymore. Or are you using the current Piano Buyer brand profiles and "Map of the Market" (which isn't really a rating)?
Splitting these sorts of hairs quickly becomes stupid. They are all high quality makes with different voices. I wouldn't pick a piano based on its arbitrary "rating", I pick it because I like the tone, and hopefully to a similar extent, the touch. Someone who likes a juiced up NY Steinway B isn't going to like the tonal palette of a Bosendorfer 200. Someone who likes the tone of a Förster 215 is probably not going to be a perfect match for a Blüthner model 4. At that point, ratings don't matter to a serious player with an open mind. And almost, tiny differences in quality won't, either.
Something totally different, indeed! (Isn't this one of the same pieces people have been listening to and playing for the last 180 years or so?)
But regarding the piano itself...yes, this is admittedly a little uncharacteristic of expectations. It sounds very good to me. My initial thought was...a little bright, though?
Yes obviously I was only talking about the piano.(you think I do not know that Chopin?) Perhaps we need to listen more, rather than only listening to a degree we think that brand deserves to be listened to. 😉 There are many great pianos around from the US, Europe and Japan.I think I am getting rather tired of this idealised Omega that seems to be so unavailable..
No, I was just kidding. I assumed you’d know it. You’re right. I totally agree with you. I’m trying to advocate for the same approach I’d use myself, which is to buy the piano you like best to the degree that you can afford the price, and that its availability suits you (digressions and tangents aside)…pending things like tech inspection etc
The minimum seems to be around 1,001,014,240.06 Indonesian Rupiahs (that figure was achieved through a currency converter) for a brand new one from the factory which you'll have to wait until next year to acquire.
Converted to euros, that is the same price in Western Europe.
The prices go up in Singapore. I asked the dealer there whether it would make a difference if I ordered the piano through him or via Thailand and he replied that it didn't really matter. Odd.
I'm leaning towards the Blüthner Model 6 now after getting a good offer directly from the factory. However, I've read some not so flattering comments about modern Blüthners (especially the smaller grands) - is there any truth to them? I liked the Blüthner I played, but that piano is 17 years old - has the quality deteriorated since then?
As for the August Förster 190, the price is attractive, but I haven't been blown away by the sound in clips. It seems very clear and quite bright; the Sauters and Blüthners appear to have a deeper and more full-bodied sound. August Förster also seems to be a lesser-known brand - are quality and workmanship standards high?
The Sauter Delta sounds good but I'm worried that 5 cm makes a difference - does it? That piano also seems to veer towards a clearer and brighter sound.
You mean you are judging the August Forster grand based on a "sound clip?"
No, I did get to try the August Förster 170. That size is unfortunately too small for me and I will not consider buying it, but it was the best I could do as the 190 was not in stock.
Not the best sound I've ever heard - clear, silvery, but a bit too 'light' for me, and that goes for the touch as well. A regional dealer told me that August Förster is more suited for playing classical and baroque music, and I can believe it. Now, I realize this is a smaller model than I'd be aiming to buy (the 190), but I tried the Sauter Alpha 160 and it is remarkable how similar it was to the Omega in terms of general sound and touch. I think there's a Singaporean user floating around here who took a chance on the Delta after only having tried the Alpha and he is very happy with it; I was wondering if I could use the same approach in purchasing the August Förster 190.
I tried the Seiler SE-186 at Bechstein World where they also stock Seiler, and boy, was I disappointed. That piano was at a perfect price point for me, but it was readily obvious to even a neophyte like me that the sound and touch were inferior to many of the other brands I'd tried.
No offence intended to Seiler owners - this is all solely IMO, of course!
There is a certain amount of brightness in many European pianos.That includes some excellent models of Sauter uprights and the smaller grands.The German Seiler SE is apparently quite bright.I would suggest that for the larger SE models of grands you would have to try them before you can judge..Then remember you are judging ONE example of this brand and model.The Concert grand in the YouTube video I am SURE is nothing like you describe, unless it's unprepared, or it has been ruined by something like exposure to extremly high humidity levels. By the way I have tried Sauter pianos as well.The Delta I played was rather disappointing, the touch was very stiff, and not that smooth.I went online and discovered there were others who had the same experience.Apparently this seems to be the case with only SOME of the pianos.(I mean Deltas) The tone was good but quite frankly some Sauter uprights had a more beautiful tone than that grand piano. The piano had been tuned and apparently regulated. Apart from this the Omega is apparently is a huge step up from the Delta.in performance quality.You cannot completely judge a brand or model by playing one example.I doubt that the Alpha would have much in common with the semi concert Omega.A similar signature tone yes, but this small grand would probably have more in common with a Sauter130 than the Omega. https://www.pianostreet.com/smf/index.php?topic=57501.0
My piano's voice is my voice to God and the great unknown universe, and to those I love. In other words a hymn. That is all, but that is enough. tre corda
Then remember you are judging ONE example of this brand and model.
Well, unfortunately for some of us this is all we'll have to go by. Not all of us live in regions where a wide variety of piano brands are available, and certainly we can't all go traipsing around the world trying as many pianos as we can.
Of course, one has to use their common sense. If the piano has suffered through shitty conditions then it can't be judged accurately. However, if the piano purports to be in good condition and has been well-maintained and you still aren't impressed by it, that's a strike against it and the brand.
And I don't know about you, but I could perceive a similarity in richness of sound between the Alpha and the Omega (LOL, that almost sounds Biblical!). This is unique to Sauter and something I didn't experience with other brands; it is almost like speakers are turned on and the sound is especially amplified when playing with the right-hand side pedal.
I'm leaning towards the Blüthner Model 6 now after getting a good offer directly from the factory. However, I've read some not so flattering comments about modern Blüthners (especially the smaller grands) - is there any truth to them? I liked the Blüthner I played, but that piano is 17 years old - has the quality deteriorated since then?
The usual observation is that the quality standard is up to their top level since around 2005/2006 after the cold war period.
Originally Posted by RiverwayInca35
The Sauter Delta sounds good but I'm worried that 5 cm makes a difference - does it? That piano also seems to veer towards a clearer and brighter sound.
5cm versus which model ? The Omega is 220. If you are talking about a 190cm piano from another brand, it is difficult to point out one particular element that would make a difference. The Omega will have obviously a deeper and stronger bass and mid bass which will give more balance to the tonal spectrum. Now each piano size in any given brand has its own voice. Whether you prefer one over the other is often a question of appreciation. Personally I like piano which have enough bass but not an overwhelming bass presence, someone else may judge that more bass is just right.
The Delta will have less harmonic complexity than the Bluthner which has also a more full bodied sound which I find nicely balanced for me (thats why I bought one). The Delta I have tried had a rather silvery, brilliant sound but quite elegant. The concept of bright is again personal to each person, so I wouldnt use that term, but it is definitely less full-bodied than some other brands in equivalent size.
Well there you go, as you say because one Seiler SE 186 was awful, I agree all Seiler's must be trash.I wonder what that says about Sauter then considering I did not like that Delta which was also kept in such an excellent environment? I do not understand RailwayInca why is this discussion going on and on.Why not order the Omega or buy the one in the store.By the way I am a Sauter fan. I do think it's rather naive to trash a brand because of one example, no matter how frustrating it is to be dissapointed by playing a certain model ( individual piano in the store) I am hoping to try another Sauter Delta sometime.No these brands and models are not all over the place here either and I am not just able to fly around the world to try out pianos.I know nothing about these modern Seiler pianos, but I do feel I am am open enough to judge them fairly.One PW member in Sweden loves her new Seiler upright.So it seems some Europeans certainly value them. There are also two other members who own Seilers and one of them I know really loves his Seiler grand.So there you go then.. 😨 😟 🙀 😉 😄
I think as a buyer, there is certainly only so much you can do. I'll have to take "on faith" that when someone writes off a brand while shopping, they're doing so out of necessity due to the constraints imposed around the process: travel to see different models, not being able to A/B, extremely limited selection, limited time at the shop and for shopping generally, limited energy, etc. I don't even think it's bad for someone to truly come to a conclusion about the brand based on one or two samples. Opinions are as common as...noses, after all. And every brand has it's opportunity to impress, through it's availability, price, dealer network, the tuning and prep of the model(s) available at the time....
The beauty contest is unfair and constrained. But that's life some people will walk away not liking Steinway. Or Bosendorfer. Or Seiler or Young Chang.
Originally Posted by tre corda
I do not understand RailwayInca why is this discussion going on and on.Why not order the Omega or buy the one in the store.
I have to admit I've lost the train of this thread as well! 😅RiverInca35, can you remind us where you stand currently in your selection journey?
Well all I can say is if it takes one year to build a Sauter 122 Maly design piano, it's going to take at least 5 years to build an Omega.( I still do not think it does though) So yes there will either be a long wait or the need for more traveling will become even more essential.Considering the differences experienced by some with the Delta model (see the link above) I would want to travel so I can try the piano out before buying that Omega.Still since you have just bought a top level grand Gombessa perhaps you can be more helpful to the OP.
My piano's voice is my voice to God and the great unknown universe, and to those I love. In other words a hymn. That is all, but that is enough. tre corda
The beauty contest is unfair and constrained. But that's life some people will walk away not liking Steinway. Or Bosendorfer. Or Seiler or Young Chang. quote/ Gombessa]
No it's more likely that they have the same or better taste than a wealthy person who can afford a Bosendorfer or. a Steinway. The reason they choose something less expensive is because they know what thier budget is.That is why when we give up on a brand we should at least be sensitive about it when we can afford something far higher.(well I try to be)
My piano's voice is my voice to God and the great unknown universe, and to those I love. In other words a hymn. That is all, but that is enough. tre corda
The beauty contest is unfair and constrained. But that's life some people will walk away not liking Steinway. Or Bosendorfer. Or Seiler or Young Chang. quote/ Gombessa]
No it's more likely that they have the same or better taste than a wealthy person who can afford a Bosendorfer or. a Steinway. The reason they choose something less expensive is because they know what thier budget is.That is why when we give up on a brand we should at least be sensitive about it when we can afford something far higher.(well I try to be)
The beauty contest is unfair and constrained. But that's life some people will walk away not liking Steinway. Or Bosendorfer. Or Seiler or Young Chang. quote/ Gombessa]
No it's more likely that they have the same or better taste than a wealthy person who can afford a Bosendorfer or. a Steinway. The reason they choose something less expensive is because they know what thier budget is.That is why when we give up on a brand we should at least be sensitive about it when we can afford something far higher.(well I try to be)
.
This post seems more inclusive and respectful of different pianos. This is great! This recent post copied below did not give the same impression. It read to me that European pianos are the only pianos.
… and why not a "European Piano Club?" Not really workable here I know.They are expensive, still they are special. Many prefer them to what else is offered, and for good reasons too! No amount of "puppetearing" will stop people from buying them;."Long may they reign!"
Well all I can say is if it takes one year to build a Sauter 122 Maly design piano, it's going to take at least 5 years to build an Omega.( I still do not think it does though) So yes there will either be a long wait or the need for more traveling will become even more essential.Considering the differences experienced by some with the Delta model (see the link above) I would want to travel so I can try the piano out before buying that Omega.Still since you have just bought a top level grand Gombessa perhaps you can be more helpful to the OP.
I have to admit, sometimes I have a hard time following the conversation with you tre corda, so I apologize if I'm misinterpreting what you say!
Overall, it does in fact take multiple years start to finish, 3-6+ to make any of these pianos. But that involves long production-independent lead times of curing the wood used and the plate, and I think that all happens in the background such that we can disregard those parts of the proccess.
I don't understand why it seems to be an offensive comment to point out the reality (what OP has experienced, what I have, and what others have reported as ll) that in today's circumstances, you are going to deal with a long wait, more than a few months, if you put in a new order? Nobody is saying it takes 12-18 months for actual production when an order is received (this isn't a drive through preparing a big mac). On the contrary, it sounds like there's a long wait just to get started on any new orders. They get the order in, it's placed in a queue, they have finite resources and manufacturing capabilities, including as you mentioned, limited manpower due to the pandemic. They have set production and delivery schedules for vendors such as Kludge, Renner, Abel, from whom they have to send in orders and wait for parts. And it does takes several months to pull the formed rims, cured plate and soundboard, assemble the keyboard and action, finish the casing, prep, voice, and ship. But at the heart of it, whatever the reason for the capacity limitation, it seems a lot of manufacturers are working at that limit, meaning they can't go faster, and so if you put in an order today, that order is going to be sitting in their queue for maybe 6-8+ months before they even get around to starting on it, because all of their people are are busy completing the 2021 orders right now.
Hopefully they get back to matching their production capacity with demand. But I know that some mfgs, like Fazioli, only make ~140 pianos a year, and that's all they want to make, regardless of demand. So if you want one new from the factory, you are going to wait a long time.
