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Originally Posted by Doug M.
Originally Posted by terminaldegree
I have not, but ours is pretty new (so I wouldn't expect it to be an issue, yet).

This is a mis-placed assumption.

This "assumption" is based on actual experience, purchasing/setting up/testing three new university, 12-16 station digital piano labs at different points in my career, in addition to my personal digital piano purchases over the years, those "one off" purchases made as an institutional buyer, and the many times I have assisted my students in making digital piano purchases. So, it may not be authoritative, but the sample size is definitely greater than 50 new digital pianos (of various brands) without such issues. The only one I've had to reject is an "open box" return that I bought at a discount, but that was not necessarily because of minor cosmetic damage-- I cannot remember if it was disclosed by the seller-- rather I didn't like the sound of it.


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Originally Posted by Purdyd
If you buy used you really don’t have any idea either. It could have played a lot or little.

If there is a west problem it is going to show up in the used DP sooner.

I expect an item of this price does have a final qc step.

A new item will be under warranty and if there is damage in shipment you should be able to return it.

I don’t think it will be easy to find a used Fp-90x

If you test before buying properly, you do know if everything is good. I always spend time testing everything before agreeing to buy used.


Instruments......Kawai MP7SE.............................................(Past - Kawai MP7, Yamaha PSR7000)
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Originally Posted by terminaldegree
Originally Posted by Doug M.
Originally Posted by terminaldegree
I have not, but ours is pretty new (so I wouldn't expect it to be an issue, yet).

This is a mis-placed assumption.

This "assumption" is based on actual experience, purchasing/setting up/testing three new university, 12-16 station digital piano labs at different points in my career, in addition to my personal digital piano purchases over the years, those "one off" purchases made as an institutional buyer, and the many times I have assisted my students in making digital piano purchases. So, it may not be authoritative, but the sample size is definitely greater than 50 new digital pianos (of various brands) without such issues. The only one I've had to reject is an "open box" return that I bought at a discount, but that was not necessarily because of minor cosmetic damage-- I cannot remember if it was disclosed by the seller-- rather I didn't like the sound of it.

Assuming a small percentage eg 5% actually arrive damaged, then your experience would be normally good. However, recently, more manufacturing sites are being used by the major manufacturers (Y, R, & K) outside of Japan. We've been seeing more complaints on PW. Although there is maybe now a 10-20% chance you get a dud sent to you, if you buy new a lot, it's bound to happen at some point.


Instruments......Kawai MP7SE.............................................(Past - Kawai MP7, Yamaha PSR7000)
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I don’t think forums are a good place to collect statistics on failure rates.

20% dud rate? No way.

These other countries besides Japan can produce very good products.

With a new item you get a warranty and usually a no questions asked return policy.

If the problem is a case of wear, like it might be with noise, then buying used might have just accelerated that issue. And you really have no idea how much the digital piano has been played.

I agree it would be nice to try the item out before bringing it home.

But until you get the item home and in the proper environment for a few days, it might not be so easy to assess the item.


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Originally Posted by Purdyd
I don’t think forums are a good place to collect statistics on failure rates.

20% dud rate? No way.

These other countries besides Japan can produce very good products.

With a new item you get a warranty and usually a no questions asked return policy.

If the problem is a case of wear, like it might be with noise, then buying used might have just accelerated that issue. And you really have no idea how much the digital piano has been played.

I agree it would be nice to try the item out before bringing it home.

But until you get the item home and in the proper environment for a few days, it might not be so easy to assess the item.

When you play a used instrument, you can feel how good (how consistent) the action is across the piano. You can also find out how old it is, and ask how much it's been used ---how often (frequency/duration of practice), what environment (gigged, home use , studio).

That way you can make an informed judgement. I brought mine from a retired gentleman who played it infrequently as he preferred keyboards. It was only a year old. The action played flawlessly across the range. After thorough testing, I couldn't detect any artifacts on the keys that would indicate action damage.

Unless you buy a floor model, it's impossible to make that assessment of a new board.

Of course, you can say that the percentage of instruments with faults passing through QC check is very low, but not anything about the instruments that aren't part of the QC checking. What I mean to say is that anecdotally, we're getting more complaints on PW since these Indonesian plants have started producing instruments for the big 3.


Instruments......Kawai MP7SE.............................................(Past - Kawai MP7, Yamaha PSR7000)
Software..........Sibelius 7; Neuratron Photoscore Pro 8
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I started a new thread on my Roland FP-90X, but I might as well stick to this thread as its specific to this keyboard. So I will copy and paste my review here.

I had a Yamaha P-70 in my home studio for many years. I basically used it to trigger Ivory II piano software and casually practice piano on it. It was time to upgrade my digital piano. I found my 3 main choices (as I wanted the keyboard to have speakers) were the Yamaha 515, Roland FP-90X, and the Kawai ES920. Out of the 3, I liked the 515 sound wise the least though it is still decent. I found I liked the Kawai E920 the best with the Roland a close second. However when it came to the key bed, I like the Roland the most. As I am getting back into piano playing (I am more of a guitar player but took piano lessons for 6 years when I was younger) having a good key action is very important. I also liked the 4 speakers out of the Roland as well. So after watching many videos, and actually playing it in a store I went with it. I wanted to share my review which maybe helpful to some.

The Roland FP-90X replaced the FP 90 with a more powerful chip that helps provide unlimited polyphony. It has Dual, Split, and Twin Piano keyboard modes as well as dual headphone outputs. MIDI. Bluetooth and USB, for wireless streaming to and from your smart device and integration with your computer-based DAW setup. It has a built in metronome with several different sounds including someone speaking 1, 2, 3, 4 in English or Japanese. Personally I prefer the Japanese.

One of the most important things when deciding on a keyboard piano is how does it sound. With the FP-90X, they provide the upgraded PureAcoustic Piano Modeling, as well as the older Super Natural sound engine that is in the FP-60X and FP30X. The piano sounds of the 90X are really good but I will admit they don't sound as good as many VST pianos software like Ivory 2. However, as the PureAcoustic is modeling and not samples, you can really customize things. From adjusting the piano lid down, in the middle, or high. You can adjust the sound board and get different options to suite your taste as well. One soundboard gives the sound of my friends baby grand piano. In checking out some reviews on Youtube, some reviewers said the higher end of the FP-90X can sound a little shrill or hard out of the speakers. I have to admit I agree with them. Some may like it for certain styles, but it’s not to my taste. The good news is, you can go into the Function button and also adjust the character of every single key on the piano. For my taste I took the 2nd C above middle C and above and adjusted the sound of every key. I moved the setting from center to -1. This reduced the slight shrill and gave a little bit of a warmer sound. I really am impressed with Roland and providing all these options. The 3 band EQ is very helpful as well. With the Dual and Split settings, you have the control to adjust the volume of both sounds to get them to blend correctly to your taste.

The keys and how they feel are very important aspect in choosing a keyboard piano. I found Roland’s premium PHA-50 keyboard with wood and plastic hybrid keys to be excellent and close to a real piano. The 4 speakers with (2x25-watt main, 2x5-watt tweeters) provides a rich, powerful sound. Then the built-in 3-band EQ is also very handy. It supports Roland’s Piano Partner 2, Apple’s Garageband for iOS, and other music creation apps. The keyboard Includes DP-10 damper pedal. Its not a perfect digital piano, but in its price range, its pretty good.
The other sounds from Rhodes, harpsicord, and strings is nice. By combing strings, choir ahs, or some Roland D 50 sounds with the piano sound and have separate volume controls for each sound provides great flexibility. All in all, this is a very good keyboard piano that is built very well and solid.


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Thanks for the review and welcome to the club.


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Originally Posted by Purdyd
Thanks for the review and welcome to the club.

Hi @Purdyd

Although not presently a FP90x owner yet, I'm considering it. I noticed reading through this thread you've made recurring mentions as well as very good explanations concerning this DP's function as its own audio interface. If I get the gist of it correctly, not only can you control a VST on a computer with the FP90x, but that the DP's audio interface can retrieve the computer/VST and output it to the DP's own internal speakers.

I'm wondering if you'd care to comment further, both on the relevant publish specs and your perspective on what could be my own personal setup.

First, what the heck are the specs?:
Is this the relevant spec? (from Roland' site) This also seems to be common/equivalent across the FP-x lineup, the 30x, 60x and 90x
DATA PLAYBACKPlayable SoftwareStandard MIDI Files (Format 0, 1)
Audio File (WAV: 44.1 kHz, 16-bit linear format, MP3: 44.1 kHz, 64 kbps - 320 kbps, requires USB flash drive)

Second, I have a Steinberg UR22-MKII audio interface (along with my desktop/external monitors and an Arturia KeyLab61 midi controller. I plan to replace the controller with a DP, say, the FP90X (or the FP60x which seems to have the same AI function). Here's the spec for the Steinberg AI
AUDIO
D/A audio 24bit/192kHz
Audio Quality: 24.0 bit

Do the numbers tell a story which is relevant to criteria such as audio quality, latency, reliability or are they more or less irrelevant given the light duty of the workload imposed on the audio interface.

It seems obvious to me in the first instance, that a straight swap of the controller with the DP should be a snap. Do nothing.

But, let's say I want to move the DP to another room to control a VST in my laptop--i.e. no more audio interface and no more monitors. Is this simply a matter of checking the audio output route from available options in the VST itself? Or is this Windows thing? Dedicated driver? As for a VST I'm thinking, say, Pianoteq in standalone mode on the laptop. (small footprint my laptop can handle) Or, is there something I'm missing or ought to be prepared to do for this to work. Your earlier explanations would lead me to think I have no need for the audio interface because the FP90X is the audio interface required to retrieve the VST signals and to play the VST output.

Another scenario: Let's say the DP is back in the music room with audio interface, external monitors, and big, fat desktop computer. But now I want the option to switch the audio output of the VST away from default external monitors to the FP90X's internal speakers. Is this audio output switching ability controlled by selection of preferences in Pianoteq, or software for the DP, or some kind of external switching device/mixer....whatever.? This option would permit instant compare/contrast between the DP and monitors.

Anyhoo, given that you must feel a certain exasperation at having to keep interjecting notice of this audio interface reality, I figured I'd beg you to take a look at my questions about it. I hope I haven't crossed your line! hehe

Naturally, I invite anyone with a thought or three about this stuff to weigh in.

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Originally Posted by bob@pei
I plan to replace the controller with a DP, say, the FP90X (or the FP60x
Since i haven't dabbled with all the audio interface stuff of the FP-90X until now i can't give you any advice on that.

But if money isn't a big concern i would recommend to go with 90X because it has the much better action.

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Still FP90x related but straying a tad from the thread's main themes. Although maybe not.

Given the energetic participation in this FP90X thread and the sheer numbers of smart piano people who are owners, it speaks volumes to the apparent incremental value proposition of this DP versus the middle sibling in the lineup, the FP60X. While there are certain niggling concerns about this feature of the 90x or that one voiced here, the general consensus points to a general endorsement. The FP-90x certainly has the look of a very successful model. It says to me, "Yes, it's a steep ouchy hike in price going from the 60x to the 90x, but the added value arriving in the added features is slam dunk."

Or is it?

By contrast, there seems to be no love for the forgotten middle child, the FP-60x. I wondering...maybe it's closer to suggest that the 60X is in an awkward spot, not such a great value proposition in the first place. Why is there no FP-60X owners club? It's a fair chunk more expensive than the FP-30x, so maybe the value proposition moving from the entry to the mid-level model ain't so hot.

I'm wondering what sort decision-making considerations or criteria or rationale (or rationalizations) went on in FP-90X owners' heads. Was it a slam dunk or was it a struggle with the feature set/price? Naturally, can't exclude measuring this model contra its competitors from other makers.

I guess I'm fishing a bit here, also when it comes to the importance of keybed action. Does the higher grade of action in the 90X warrant the luxury surtax which you are quite happy to pay, and without hesittation...or does it grind your gears as borderline exploitive?

And who the heck owns the FP-60X?

I'm curious.

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I would be wary of drawing too many conclusions about popularity from this forum.

Forums are often skewed views of the larger world.


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Originally Posted by brennbaer
Originally Posted by bob@pei
I plan to replace the controller with a DP, say, the FP90X (or the FP60x
Since i haven't dabbled with all the audio interface stuff of the FP-90X until now i can't give you any advice on that.

But if money isn't a big concern i would recommend to go with 90X because it has the much better action.

Thanks for your input @brennbaer. You'll probably notice that coincidentally your comment about the 90X's action is relevant to my next post about value for money. with this DP. So, yes, budget is a controlling factor for me, and I wonder...for someone like me who owes no allegiance the aristocratic acoustic standard(s), and with no intention of wanting or needing to be acclimatized and ready for AP action, the value proposition is both mysterious and triggers further interrogation for me. On the other hand, I read about attributes like "expressive potential" of AP action. So, having a long history of musical experience (classical guitar), and arguing that expressive potential is the CG's middle name, it piques my interest and wonder and desire (and likely my bias), read piano player's accounts of expression potential even though I'm a tender neophyte with keyboards.

Unfortunately, while I find the recurring emphasis and singular importance of DP action attributes so persuasive, the best I can hold onto is intuition, hunches, and yes, something of a blind trust in the sharp endorsements and insightful comments of the experienced, advanced players in these PW forums.

The PW forum is something of a "think tank". I'd venture that for whatever reason, these advanced pianists have notched up 80 IQ points having drunk the magical/musical elixir for so many years/decades/half-centuries.

I'd be a dumb, dumber dope to dismiss it.

hehe

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Originally Posted by Purdyd
I would be wary of drawing too many conclusions about popularity from this forum.

Forums are often skewed views of the larger world.

Yes, your point is well taken, and a good reminder. It's easy enough to spiral into rituals of belief in what might be coined an isolated subculture.

Nevertheless, the forum's lively discussions reveal it's no cult of groupthink conformists. There's healthy debate between some obviously incisive thinkers.

"Too many conclusions" would be a blunder, but a few key conclusions, cautiously arrived at, can be a good thing. I've enjoyed this sort tentative learning with positive results in all sorts of different forums, from sailing, to pet care, to guitar playing and home repair. Now, when it comes to fitness, however, your remark is golden. I take everything in those sorts of forum with boulder-sized grains of salt!

For all that, your reminder is still well-placed. Thanks

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If you are looking for a keyboard with speakers that is easily movable, and has a top keyboard action the fp-90x will come up in the discussion.

The competition has some issues.

Es920 has a bouncy keyboard and lacks usb audio
P515 has a heavy action

The Korg sv2 is an interesting option. It not considered in the same league at least as a piano as the other three.

The same could be said of the dexibell s7 pro.

If you compare with the fp-60x

You get a better keyboard,
Better piano sound,
Better speakers

Is it worth the price difference? Well that is something only the buyer can determine.

Some people prefer the fp-60x pha-4 keyboard.
Some people use external speakers or virtual instruments.

Personally, since I tend to hold onto things for awhile and those differences are important to me, it was worth the difference in price.

And I think you are right, the fp-60x does not get the love that the fp-30x or fp-90x get

Just like the es520 and Yamaha p255 mid range digital pianos

The fp-30x has a ton of features, is lighter, with the same piano sound and keyboard as the fp-60x.

The value buyer will get the lower end model and the in the other end, some people know they will want the best and just save money and buy one digital piano instead of a lower model and upgrading.

And oddly, or not so, there is a category of giving musicians who want a light keyboard. And honestly I think companies could do a better job catering to them.

For instance, the fp-30x and new es120 do not have din midi connectors.


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Three things drew me to the FP-90X over the FP-60x.

1. I like the upgraded keys. I don't have a real piano anymore and the keys on the 90X I just love. It makes me feel I'm a little closer to having a real piano with the feel and action.
2. I like the 4 speakers over the 2 speakers on the FP-60X. I wanted a digital piano with good speakers with a big full sound. If I was going more into an amp or using headphones perhaps the 60X might be a good choice too.
3. I want the best modeling Roland has to offer in 2022. I am willing to pay the extra money for it. It helps when Sam Ash had no interest for 2 years when I purchased it as well.


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Originally Posted by Purdyd
If you are looking for a keyboard with speakers that is easily movable, and has a top keyboard action the fp-90x will come up in the discussion.

The competition has some issues.

Es920 has a bouncy keyboard and lacks usb audio
P515 has a heavy action

The Korg sv2 is an interesting option. It not considered in the same league at least as a piano as the other three.

The same could be said of the dexibell s7 pro.

If you compare with the fp-60x

You get a better keyboard,
Better piano sound,
Better speakers

Is it worth the price difference? Well that is something only the buyer can determine.

Some people prefer the fp-60x pha-4 keyboard.
Some people use external speakers or virtual instruments.

Personally, since I tend to hold onto things for awhile and those differences are important to me, it was worth the difference in price.

And I think you are right, the fp-60x does not get the love that the fp-30x or fp-90x get

Just like the es520 and Yamaha p255 mid range digital pianos

The fp-30x has a ton of features, is lighter, with the same piano sound and keyboard as the fp-60x.

The value buyer will get the lower end model and the in the other end, some people know they will want the best and just save money and buy one digital piano instead of a lower model and upgrading.

And oddly, or not so, there is a category of giving musicians who want a light keyboard. And honestly I think companies could do a better job catering to them.

For instance, the fp-30x and new es120 do not have din midi connectors.

A great summary of pros and cons for this and that. Got me thinking further on several ideas, thanks @Purdyd. A real big downside for me is that I don't live in a metropolitan city brimming with oodles of choice. (Prince Edward Island, Canada). I can pretty much eliminate Casio and Kawai both because it would be continental journey to a retailer and repairs. I do have excellent access, though, to the local technical firm, authorized warranty service for both Yamaha and Roland, and he does Korg too. He, in turn, has a solid, long-standing relationship with these DP makers.

Yeah, you've laid out the buyers logic pretty well, I'd say. I'm on the fence but tilting toward the guy who likes to hang onto the best I can afford. I like how you've given some credence to some of the entry level models, especially the fp-30x. The feature leap from the 30x to the 60x, as I think you're hinting at, appears to be much less than that between the 60x and the 90x.

Where I hesitate to go more upscale it's because the lifecycle of electronic "appliances" of all sorts is closer to insect-quick than elephant-slow. And I've looked at the local DP used market, and sheesh, for old high end models with feature sets exceeded by current entry-level models, some people are demanding ridiculous prices. And, I see quite a few needing niggling repairs, mainly to keybeds and switches. My classical guitar, (now about 40 years old) by contrast, is better than new, and should still be around in another 100 or 200 years and if I could live that long, I'd keep it. Of course, granted this is apples to oranges, digital to analog. For all that I can appreciate lingering value of a well cared for acoustic piano from the Victorian era.

Intriguing comment "The Korg sv2 is an interesting option". It sounds like you might be inclined to give it higher marks than the predominant perspective?

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Originally Posted by Revelation Sound
Three things drew me to the FP-90X over the FP-60x.

1. I like the upgraded keys. I don't have a real piano anymore and the keys on the 90X I just love. It makes me feel I'm a little closer to having a real piano with the feel and action.
2. I like the 4 speakers over the 2 speakers on the FP-60X. I wanted a digital piano with good speakers with a big full sound. If I was going more into an amp or using headphones perhaps the 60X might be a good choice too.
3. I want the best modeling Roland has to offer in 2022. I am willing to pay the extra money for it. It helps when Sam Ash had no interest for 2 years when I purchased it as well.

Thanks for this input, @Revelation Sound. You've laid out your buying criteria really well such that it's easy it understand why you opted for the FP-90X over the FP60X. Obviously, too, you want to be a current as you can be, close to the leading edge of the "best modeling Roland has to offer in 2022".

So, what will you do in 2023? 2024? Only joking, sorry. I take it that your desire to be current may have something to do with a hope of extending the relevance of this instrument's useful life for as long as possible. Why start behind on yesterday's curve, when today's is right here, right now.

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This video made it very tough to choose which piano I liked more.

In some ways I liked the Kawai more; in addition one of my best friends has a Kawai piano and just loves it.

There are four reasons why I choose the Roland over the Kawai ES920. And I didn't know for sure until I actually tried them out in the store. Now if there is anyone who has the ES920, I'm sure they can give several reasons why they choose the Kawai over the Roland which would be just a valid as this is more of a personal preference. I am also sure I would be happy to some extent with it as well.

1. The key feel on the Kawai was too light for me and I really preferred the PHA-50 action more.
2. With the extra wattage and 4 speakers vs 2 speakers, the Roland has a bigger sound (I'm not saying louder). Plus the woman April I'm crazy about also loves Roland but that is another story.
3. You can control the dynamics of each key on the Roland, so the higher keys which can be a little piercing on some piano settings, you can control and bring them down where they sound a little warmer.
4. Roland is aiming for getting the sound of a Steinway. Kawai is providing you with the sound of the Kawai piano. My old church had a Steinway grand and it was the best experience playing that piano on a stage. Breathtaking to hit the ivory keys and not smile. To be able to play a Steinway piano in a large hall and to hear the sound in the room....I felt like the riches guy in the world. I since then, fell in love with the Steinway sound and that is the sound for me.

Last edited by Revelation Sound; 06/19/22 03:02 PM.

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Quote
Where I hesitate to go more upscale it's because the lifecycle of electronic "appliances" of all sorts is closer to insect-quick than elephant-slow.

The life cycle of higher end digital pianos is much longer.

The fp90 was released in 2016

The fp90x in 2021

And honestly there isn’t a great deal of difference

Where things are change rapidly is the virtual instruments and the hardware to run them

And because of the convenience of a one cable solution. I would want a keyboard with usb midi and usb audio in.


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Originally Posted by Purdyd
Quote
Where I hesitate to go more upscale it's because the lifecycle of electronic "appliances" of all sorts is closer to insect-quick than elephant-slow.

The life cycle of higher end digital pianos is much longer.

The fp90 was released in 2016

The fp90x in 2021

And honestly there isn’t a great deal of difference

Where things are change rapidly is the virtual instruments and the hardware to run them

And because of the convenience of a one cable solution. I would want a keyboard with usb midi and usb audio in.

Projecting into the future based on the release dates you cite, might put us in year 2026/27 for the rollout of the FP-90Y .
And I'd suppose that current owners of the FP90 might be content to hold onto them for awhile yet, even if just 1 model release behind. What's that, like 10-15 years of ownership, which is not too shabby...for an "electric appliance". All is relative, because this still pegs lifecycle as a thin fraction of that of analog tools, like axes, pie forks, wheelbarrows, acoustic pianos and violins, where the actuary tables go back a century or more. In any case, I am over-dramatizing the contrast. But as you indicated your preference is to go higher end with the hope of enjoying a long relationship with the instrument.

Pro-rated, the annual cost looks like $200-$250/year or a little less than a buck-a-day, and then if well cared for, there's some residual disposal value. A bargain from this longer view angle.

This picture conjures up my wondering if any "preventative maintenance" is ever recommended. Certainly, I've never seen it mentioned...anywhere, meaning a good DP should be maintenance-free...until something goes clunk. With quite a complex of moving parts, are there any lubrication points or adjustable bits?

Last edited by bob@pei; 06/19/22 09:25 PM.
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