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Hello!

I'm a newbie and so glad to have found this forum. Nice to meet you all!

I'm in the process of buying an upright piano (the first with my own money), and I would greatly appreciate some advice.

About me, my piano goals and my environment:

I learned a few years of (classical) piano as a kid, at a children's program of a conservatory. I didn't get very far--maybe early intermediate? I was last working on Mozart KVK545, Bach 2-part inventions. Then, we moved countries and I never had a piano nor took lessons again.

Fast forward twenty-something years, I would love to go back to having a piano and getting a teacher and regular practicing/playing.

I live in an apartment, with thin walls (I can hear conversations and TV sometimes, though not always). According to my co-op occupancy agreement, I can practice instruments maximum 2 hours a day, before 8pm. Of course I'll follow that, but beyond legalities, I want to be considerate and not subject my nice neighbors to loud daily practicing. Also, I'm in my place for the foreseeable future, not looking to move to a house (so would prefer an upright for space reasons).

The candidate pianos:

1. Schimmel C120 (48"), ca. 2004. This is the piano that made me fall in love with it again. It sounds so beautiful, and it's gorgeous that in itself it is inspiring. I think it sounds the closest to the piano in my childhood. It is the most expensive in the list, though ($11K list price. What do you think?), so I would have to be very sure--and my biggest doubt with this one is whether, at 48", it will be too loud. In fact, I'm pretty sure that it would be too loud; I might have to use the practice pedal a lot. But I wonder if even with the pedal it would be too loud. So, I would have to try a lot of "quietening" advice and hope it works? (rug under and behind the piano, using a piano cover, making acoustic panels, etc. If you have any easy fixes, I'm all ears! I cant' afford to soundproof the whole room.). It feels like a risk, and something too good to be true (could I really have this beautiful thing at home?).

2. Boston UP118E (46.5"), ca. 2004, made in Japan. This one surprised me, sounded and felt (touch-wise) quite good, I had no expectations because I didn't know the brand. At half the price of the Schimmel, it is less risky, and the seller is willing to let me try it. My questions have to do with quality: I read that these Boston uprights, pre-2006, had tuning stability issues and in 2006 they ended up redesigning the tuning pins (?). Do folks in this forum know about this piano, and how bad this is/how serious or costly issue this is, etc.?

3. Alternatively, I could get a Kawai K200, new with ATX4, and pay somewhere in the middle between those two options (what would be reasonable? I'm being quoted over $10,000, which I don't think is right and am willing to negotiate more). To be honest, I really wanted to love the Kawai uprights, as I had heard good things and were at my pricepoint, but somehow I'm not fully convinced by the touch--which feels somewhat plastic-y to me (is this people's experience too?). I feel like it's decent, but it doesn't wow me. But having a hybrid piano at that budget range would be a pretty good practical solution, I think, to my noise worries--and, being new, I wouldn't have to worry about its condition. But, not being in love with the instrument, it makes me wonder whether I need to spend that much money on something I don't love/is just practical.

4. A fourth option is getting a digital piano, of course. I do have ambitions to take 3-4 years at least of serious lessons and getting good enough to play Beethoven Sonatas and Schubert impromptus (hah!), so I think I will have to get an acoustic at some point anyway. But I might add a not-too-expensive digital piano (unless I get a hybrid) so that I can play whenever inspiration strikes (!). So, I'll also take recommendations on what is the least I could spend while still getting a very good action.


Apologies for the novel!! Thank you all for reading, and I look forward to your ideas.

Last edited by SchubertRock; 05/19/22 05:06 PM.
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Option 1 (maybe try and offer $2k less?), though that's big money for a used upright that's not a current model from their top series. You can check the build date on Schimmel's site, with the serial number, they're not so hard to find (unlike for the Boston).
Option 2, after confirming the age and hire an independent piano technician to tune it and comment on how the tuning pins feel, prior to purchase. Some of those comments were directed at the cheaper 118S, institutional model, which is made in Indonesia, FWIW.

For both of these pianos, double check that the practice pedal works well (is adjusted correctly, and that the felt is thin and flexible enough that it doesn't brush neighboring notes when you play with it down, since you're likely to want to use it). Both pianos will be almost equally loud to a decibel meter. I had no problem with this arrangement, using a 130cm European piano, by knowing when my neighbors were typically home or at work/out.

Since you don't like the feel of Option 3, I'd not go that route.

Adding an inexpensive digital slab would be a decent plan, if you had space to do it.


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Hi SchubertRock, and welcome!
Here are my initial thoughts. First, I would actually think more seriously about a good DP as your ‘main’/‘only’ piano at this juncture. Good DPs are certainly not acoustic pianos, but they are much much better than when you were taking lessons as a kid, and they have a lot of advantages for apartment living. I have a very good friend who is a better pianist than I am; he certainly plays things in the category of Beethoven sonatas. He has a condo and plays a DP. It is just the best option for him at this point in time. As has been said in another thread recently, your preference for touch and tone may also evolve in the next few years, as you re-embark on your piano journey.

The silent piano options (like the Kawai k200-atx4) are also good possibilities for the apartment living situation (Yamaha also has a silent system). The problem with these is that I haven’t seen a ton of ads for used pianos with these factory installed systems, so you are probably looking at the new piano market, which does come at a price premium. You didn’t like the one you played, and if I remember correctly, Yamaha is moving to a new silent system, so there may be limited options for silent Yamahas. You will also take a depreciation hit as soon as the piano enters your home.

If you think that a DP is not for you and the silent options aren’t available or not options that you like, just make sure you have a technician look over the used pianos, and as terminaldegree says, make sure the practice pedal is functional.

This doesn’t have to be the last piano you buy! Get something that makes sense for you now. If you want DP recommendations, it would probably be useful to have a budget. There are lots of DPs at different price points, and the budget can really help narrow what you may want to consider.

Food luck!

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Digital pianos can work, but they're not ideal. I used to play one when I was much younger, and worked on challenging pieces by Beethoven, Chopin, Rachmaninov, etc. You can certainly practice those pieces, but it never feels like a true performance on a digital piano. I think you need a decent upright to feel you're really doing great and difficult pieces justice.

So. Why not consider getting both? Get an inexpensive but still sufficient, digital piano with a hammer weighted action. Spend no more than say, $1K-ish. And also get an acoustic piano (of your choosing). This is the best of both worlds. You can easily alternate the digital when wanting more practice time, and you can easily stow it if needed, when not in use. I'd recommend something very simple like the type that does not come with a built-in stand. Then get one of those foldable scissors stands and a bench. All of that will be pretty inexpensive.

Just an idea. Otherwise I'd say it's hard to fit your needs. Because those neighbors are a concern. And you don't want to always feel bound by their needs. This goes both ways -- in terms of sacrificing your own comfort for theirs by always playing on a digital, or feeling like you're sacrificing their comfort for yours by always playing on an upright. Who knows, maybe it can work, if you have the money and space.

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Thanks very much! Both #1 & 2 are definitely 2004s. Appreciate the extra info and advice about both, they are very sound and I'll keep them in mind for this weekend when I'll be seeing the Schimmel, Boston and K200-atx again.

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Yeah. I'll be looking at K200-atx again this weekend along with the others, so I'll try it again and make sure I'm sure I don't love it. I had gone to try with Kawai first because I had heard that K200 vs. b2, K200 was a better value and was a bit mellower (which I like), but you never know until you try it. (Yeah. I don't see any in the preowned market locally).

Re: DPs, I guess 1K would be a good budget range to start with, as chromaticrange says below?

Thank you smile

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Thank you. Those are exactly my feelings. Maybe it's nostalgia but I remember the a feeling of working on it with your piano (I could only play much simpler pieces, but when you get a singing line just the way you want, or play dramatic pieces that helped express those adolescing feelings, it felt like a partner). While it's also true that live in an apartment now. The last paragraph is very well put. Trying to find the right balance!

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Having the digital piano would definitely be nice, so that you can block out the sounds you occasionally hear around you. This is how I was in high school, when I became more passionate about music. I often had to compete with the TV-watching of my family during the evenings, if I wanted to play on the house acoustic (Baldwin) upright. They were generally encouraging and complimentary of my playing, but I did sometimes have to tune out other distractions. I have memories of sitting down to play the piano, and then hearing them turn up the TV. So for me, the digital piano made it easier for me to focus on practicing, in privacy and solitude (they can't hear me, I can't hear them, kind of thing). The time also seems to pass more quickly when no one is paying attention, somehow.

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Go with the best accoustic with the most inspiring touch and tone.DP's may be a good alternative but they usually have the most standardized tone for a student.An accoustic will encourage your "piano journey"


My piano's voice is my voice to God and the great unknown universe, and to those I love.In other words a hymn.That is all, but that is enough.Life goes on, despite pain and fear.Music is beautiful,life is beautiful.


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Hope you don't mind me adding this option.
I just played a Mason & Hamlin Artist Upright 131U- $13k brand new
Was very impressed with the touch and the tone for an upright.

I purchased a Steinway 1912 Model A - rebuilt and refurbished.
But I go to the Showroom whenever something new comes in - was there today and tried this piano.
Impressed for an Upright.

Just sayin'

brdwyguy

Last edited by brdwyguy; 05/19/22 08:08 PM.

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Originally Posted by SchubertRock
Re: DPs, I guess 1K would be a good budget range to start with, as chromaticrange says below?

At around the $1000 price point, I think you could look at the Roland fp30x (which should be a bit less) and the Roland fp 60x (a little more); Kawai es110/es520, or the Yamaha p125 (the p515 seems to be considerably more, but is another possibility). Different folks prefer different ones, but I think these are reasonable options around $1000.

I’m personally a huge fan of acoustic pianos, and I upgraded to one very quickly after buying a Clavinova. I do agree with many of the sentiments here that there is a lot that I experience with an acoustic piano that is missing with a DP. But I’m also someone who lived in an apartment for many years, without any piano at all, because I didn’t feel that an acoustic piano was feasible in that space. My experience playing a few DPs in the early/mid 2000s left me with a pretty negative perception of them, and I didn’t really think it was worth considering them. Fast forward to 2020, when for a few reasons I decided to look at DPs. I was actually quite pleasantly surprised by them. I think they have improved a lot over that time frame. My biggest piano regret was that I did not consider getting a DP for so long, because I think that it would have added something to my life.

Apartments are also different. I would not have felt comfortable owning/playing an acoustic piano in any of the apartments I lived in, but if you feel this is doable in your apartment, then go for it. But if you think there’s the possibility that you will end up spending much, much more time on the digital and the acoustic will only be played on ‘special occasions,’ then I would consider not getting the acoustic and instead investing in a better DP, since that would be where you’re spending most of your time. Getting a nice acoustic and then feeling like you can never play it is not somewhere I’d want to be.

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Yeah. It's different for each apartment, and it's hard to know how it will sound in my space until it is actually here, which is the conundrum! Hence I'm looking for sellers who will let me try it, either having a 'rent to buy' arrangement or a good return policy. (The Boston seller will, I think).

For what it's worth, one of the neighbors across from the hall from me has a son who used to practice piano when I first moved in (he has since grown older and given up, I think). I used to hear it very low in the shared hallway, but I never heard it from inside my own apartment. Though of course, I don't know how it was for the folks directly adjacent, or below or above them. One of the neighbors adjacent to them (and farther away from me) is a violin teacher, but it's a mystery to me as I never hear her...I only learned it from seeing her with the case. But on the other hand I hear people walking or singing from upstairs! So, soundproofing seems to be very weird in our building so it makes me want to try it first hand in the actual space (and really super concentrate on isolating the floor).

Since I didn't love the K200+atx4 (which I will try again anyway this weekend), I thought I would try to construct my own acoustic + digital combo.

But IF acoustic doesn't work out at all (and I hope it will), just as a benchmark, what would you say is the most realistic action digital that simulates an acoustic best/the best digital piano for an intermediate/later intermediate classical player (what I'm working towards) if I went to a higher budget for digital?

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In case you consider a DP, please try the touch and tone as many ones as possible in sufficient time before making decision. In my experience, my son and me are possibly at lower-intermediate level (we are not at your level yet for sure) but both of us get boring very soon with most of DPs we tried at the showrooms. There is no Novus lines in our country and we feel more comfortable with an Yamaha Avantgrand but it is still missing something. For that reason we ended with an acoustic one and have some acoustic treatment in our room. Wish you have good and interesting piano hunting:).


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Sgisela, does have some good points, no one wants to feel too inhibited to play.Some neighbors are more tolerant of others or the strata is very strict and unfriendly,.yet others not.
A friend of mine gets woken at 2am sometime by someone who decides to play his guitar? 😃 He plays softly, but of course everything is too loud at that time in the morning.
You are far more able to make an upright softer if you wish than a grand .I do not know how good the Kawai's practice pedal is.With some upright pianos the practice pedal will soften the notes unequally and even "jam" the action slightly . Other brands have excellent practice pedals.No jamming or unequal notes. The Schimmel may have a practice that is very affective in a good way.The newer ones do.( not telling you to get a new Schimmel) It would make tone more like a "celeste" and you would still be able to play musically, always excellent for drilling sections of pieces you wish to practice.I mention the Schimmel because you sound as though you do like it.Perhaps you can make an offer?
Other ways are wrapping towels or some other material around the posts at the back of the piano.If you do this correctly it is very affective.Also placing an accoutic board at the back of the piano.You would have to experiment.All the sound comes from there.Even covering the back of the piano with a quilt or blanket is very affective.At some point getting a used digital piano on Craigslist as well is usefull with your accoustic.


My piano's voice is my voice to God and the great unknown universe, and to those I love.In other words a hymn.That is all, but that is enough.Life goes on, despite pain and fear.Music is beautiful,life is beautiful.


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I feel like…yeah that’s a good point re: the case of having both but feeling like the acoustic is “off-limits” (that would be a waste and not a good feeling). But it just depends on the situation your neighbors. It might be that you can get them to agree to an hour or two a day or something. More might be unreasonable. Usually there’re some conduct rules in the lease if all else fails.

But if they’re very ornery and particular about the time, it’s nice to have a backup option. I briefly considered getting a piano when I was in an apartment, but ended up moving into a house first. My plan was to run it by the neighbors. Usually people are nice about it, and sometimes they even enjoy listening.

With my current habits, I wouldn’t want to impose on relative strangers, because I play sporadically throughout the day, for hours. If you can make friends with them, they’ll make more allowances of course.

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Originally Posted by chromaticvortex
I feel like…yeah that’s a good point re: the case of having both but feeling like the acoustic is “off-limits” (that would be a waste and not a good feeling). But it just depends on the situation your neighbors. It might be that you can get them to agree to an hour or two a day or something. More might be unreasonable. Usually there’re some conduct rules in the lease if all else fails.

But if they’re very ornery and particular about the time, it’s nice to have a backup option. I briefly considered getting a piano when I was in an apartment, but ended up moving into a house first. My plan was to run it by the neighbors. Usually people are nice about it, and sometimes they even enjoy listening.

With my current habits, I wouldn’t want to impose on relative strangers, because I play sporadically throughout the day, for hours. If you can make friends with them, they’ll make more allowances of course.
I very much disagree,.it depends on the oneself and your approach to your nieghbours.Always wanting an accoustic yet denying yourself because of anxiety is not good.Personally I would just get the accoustic, invite your nearest neighbors over for a cup of tea ( away from the piano), Ask them thier opinion about practicing at certain times etc.Tell them how you are going to play softly, ask them thier opinion of just covering the soundboard with a quilt.(so that sometimes you can easily play without the practice pedal) or other methods of softening the piano.

From then on its just experiencing and if there is nastiness, resort to asking that person what is the best time to practice.Most of all stay positive about your music....
...if we have never lived, what's the point? From what you say having an accoustic piano sounds quite feasible.

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Originally Posted by tre corda
Originally Posted by chromaticvortex
I feel like…yeah that’s a good point re: the case of having both but feeling like the acoustic is “off-limits” (that would be a waste and not a good feeling). But it just depends on the situation your neighbors. It might be that you can get them to agree to an hour or two a day or something. More might be unreasonable. Usually there’re some conduct .
I very much disagree,.it depends on the oneself and your approach to your nieghbours.Always wanting an accoustic yet denying yourself because of anxiety is not good.Personally I would just get the accoustic, invite your nearest neighbors over for a cup of tea ( away from the piano), Ask them thier opinion about practicing at certain times etc.Tell them how you are going to play softly, ask them thier opinion of just covering the soundboard with a quilt.(so that sometimes you can easily play without the practice pedal) or other methods of softening the piano.

From then on its just experiencing and if there is nastiness, resort to asking that person what is the best time to practice.Most of all stay positive about your music....
...if we have never lived, what's the point? From what you say having an accoustic piano sounds quite feasible.

While an acoustic is much better than any digital, it is no good if you can't play it because of constraints.

Neighbours move and the new ones might not be as forgiving as the ones who left

Maybe look for a good digital, not the same but at least you can play whenever you want.


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Originally Posted by tre corda
.I do not know how good the Kawai's practice pedal is.With some upright pianos the practice pedal will soften the notes unequally and even "jam" the action slightly.
My K300 volume is remain 40-50% with practice pedal while the sound is a little bit distorted but the notes are still equally.


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Oh my. I seem to have caused a controversy. It is definitely a balancing act ("my right to swing my fist ends where your nose begins" comes to mind), and this is my plan.

1. My co-op's written rules (occupancy agreement) say no practising instruments or voice for more than 2 hours a day, or after 8pm. I intend to strictly follow these rules (and actually do a better than them, because I think the rule is very lenient--2 hours a day at audible volume can be very stressful).

2. But, people have had instruments in my co-op, and I have not heard them to the point of being a problem, nor have I observed conflict among neighbors around this issue.

3. So that leads me to think that I can at least experiment. My plan currently is rug pad + 2 inch thick rug, (and the room is almost completely covered in rugs otherwise, as another building rule is 80%+ rug coverage) + I'm looking into caster cups, plus, I'll use the towel method behind the soundboard as well as an extra area rug tucked between the soundboard & the wall + a full-length quilted piano cover around it (so 3 layers on soundboard). And, for daily practice, I would still always use the practice pedal (I hope it is still musical, as @tre corda says! I look forward to trying it out on the Schimmel, Boston and still also the Kawai K200 this weekend). I'll play without the practice pedal when a piece is finished, for a short time at lunch time on days I work remotely and most folks are away at work.

3. I'm mystified as to how sound travels in my building, though. So, I'll be sure to check in with my neighbors to make sure it doesn't bother them and that they know they can call me if it does.

4. If I detect any objection though, I will end the trial and return the acoustic piano (I'm hoping to work out an agreement that allows a trial period, as I mentioned).

5. At that point, I figure I can decide whether I want a digital as a supplement for odd hours (if keeping the acoustic) or an only instrument (if not keeping the acoustic).

Is this unrealistic/unreasonable? (please feel free to let me know! It could be my wishful thinking).

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But maybe I have it backwards, and I should start with a mid-range digital as an only instrument at first, then add the acoustic. I just didn't want to invest a lot of money on the digital and save it for the acoustic (which is where my heart is, as you can probably tell), but it could make practical sense to get a mid-range instrument (would you say 2-3K could get me a decent one?) for primary use now and secondary later.

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