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Originally Posted by Sidokar
Originally Posted by Rickster
I usually carry a broom handle stick, without the broom, when I walk because of another neighbor's dog that doesn't like me and barks at me continuously, and sometimes gets pretty close and shows its teeth. But it never comes closer than the length of the broom stick, and I suspect it's bark is worse than it's bite (but I don't want to find out for sure:-). The Australian shepherd, on the other hand, well, I know now that it will bite, despite me trying to be friendly to it.

I said all that to say this... it's best to be friendly, but if that fails, just keep on walking and try not to let it discourage you.


Actually with dogs which may be aggressive best is to stop and stand absolutely still. Never try to pad the dog, thats the best way to get a bite. The more you move the more you will excite it. Except for dogs that are trained to attack people (in case you venture in their territory), all the others will go away after a minute or two.

Thanks for the advice! Will take heed to it.

Sorry for the OT, but sometimes it's a quick break, and then it helps get things back on track... smile

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Hi Piano Dad. Long time...etc. Best, Adrian


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Originally Posted by Sidokar
Originally Posted by Rickster
I usually carry a broom handle stick, without the broom, when I walk because of another neighbor's dog that doesn't like me and barks at me continuously, and sometimes gets pretty close and shows its teeth. But it never comes closer than the length of the broom stick, and I suspect it's bark is worse than it's bite (but I don't want to find out for sure:-). The Australian shepherd, on the other hand, well, I know now that it will bite, despite me trying to be friendly to it.

I said all that to say this... it's best to be friendly, but if that fails, just keep on walking and try not to let it discourage you.


Actually with dogs which may be aggressive best is to stop and stand absolutely still. Never try to pad the dog, thats the best way to get a bite. The more you move the more you will excite it. Except for dogs that are trained to attack people (in case you venture in their territory), all the others will go away after a minute or two.

Yes, however if after staying still for a bit (if things seem calmer and you want to go further) it's probably best to slowly lower the body and offer a hand (closed so as to protect the fingers) for sniffing. Then call it a day and slowly withdraw the hand rather than going for a stroke, do keep the hand below the dogs head both when approaching and withdrawing it. If/when you do go further and (slowly) try to stroke the dog it will likely feel much more comfortable if you stroke the top of its chest - that feels the wrong approach to humans but the dog can/will interpret a stroke (please not a pat) on the head as a signal of you asserting dominance and that may not end well.

Last edited by gwing; 05/16/22 12:38 PM.
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Originally Posted by gwing
Originally Posted by Sidokar
Originally Posted by Rickster
I usually carry a broom handle stick, without the broom, when I walk because of another neighbor's dog that doesn't like me and barks at me continuously, and sometimes gets pretty close and shows its teeth. But it never comes closer than the length of the broom stick, and I suspect it's bark is worse than it's bite (but I don't want to find out for sure:-). The Australian shepherd, on the other hand, well, I know now that it will bite, despite me trying to be friendly to it.

I said all that to say this... it's best to be friendly, but if that fails, just keep on walking and try not to let it discourage you.


Actually with dogs which may be aggressive best is to stop and stand absolutely still. Never try to pad the dog, thats the best way to get a bite. The more you move the more you will excite it. Except for dogs that are trained to attack people (in case you venture in their territory), all the others will go away after a minute or two.

Yes, however if after staying still for a bit (if things seem calmer and you want to go further) it's probably best to slowly lower the body and offer a hand (closed so as to protect the fingers) for sniffing. Then call it a day and slowly withdraw the hand rather than going for a stroke, do keep the hand below the dogs head both when approaching and withdrawing it. If/when you do go further and (slowly) try to stroke the dog it will likely feel much more comfortable if you stroke the top of its chest - that feels the wrong approach to humans but the dog can/will interpret a stroke (please not a pat) on the head as a signal of you asserting dominance and that may not end well.

Good advice also, gwing. However, as much as I like dogs, I don't think I want to give it a second go with that particular animal, which I do not encounter often. That said, the thought did cross my mind, "bite me once, (while trying to be friendly) shame on the dog; bite me twice, shame on me". Or something like that?

But, hey, I'm a firm believer in second chances, depending on the circumstances. smile

Lots of wisdom to be gained here on PW, on a broad variety of subjects! smile

Edit to add: it has also been my experience that pianos become brighter over time, with lots of playing, rather the mellower...

Rick


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Originally Posted by terminaldegree
No, pianos definitely don’t get mellower with additional playing time. Any salesperson who tells you that is lying.

Originally Posted by Seeker
Regarding what the sales person says: total nonsense.
I've been playing pianos for 65 years at this point.
Not a single one has, on its own, without voicing, grown more mellow in tone as the hammers wear from playing.
To the contrary - they ALWAYS get brighter.
Why? Because the felt in the hammer compacts from repeated blows - though if it were as simple as that, voicing would be easy and not an art, in itself.

Originally Posted by David-G
No, repeated tuning will not make a piano sound warmer and mellower. To do that, voicing is required - and you should have that done BEFORE you buy the piano, not afterwards, to ensure that you are satisfied with it before you purchase.


Thanks all, this is what I had suspected.

I was wondering that maybe, if the factory ships with some kind of lacquered process on the hammers, perhaps that wears down after a while (but sooner than the grooving of the hammer). That kind of hypothetical is the only thing that would make sense to me.


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Originally Posted by Athdara
Originally Posted by Athdara
My Sauter upright was pretty bright when it first arrived a few years ago, but now the sound is much more mellow and warmer. She sings so beautifully now I tear when my teacher plays a piece I love (I'm sure it's also because he plays well haha). If you don't wish to wait for a few years then take the display model.

forgot to add: I did get it voiced once, about a year or two after it arrived so it'll be mellower, but back then, even after voicing, the sound was still.. a little stiff.

I have sneaky feeling Estella may be wise in choosing one of the new pianos. Athdara's posts speak for themselves. Last year a member from Singapore said a Fazioli imported for Angela Hewitt had much improved after two or three years. I can't remember his exact words but resonance and suppleness come to mind. From memory it hadn't been voiced.

If you fancy a new piano would you opt for a four year old floor model from a heavily trafficked store in Hong Kong?


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Originally Posted by Withindale
If you fancy a new piano would you opt for a four year old floor model from a heavily trafficked store in Hong Kong?
As long as the piano is in good cosmetic condition(if not ask the dealer to touch up the finish) I would certainly choose that piano over one whose tone I didn't like with the hope that the tone could be adjusted to my liking after I pay for it.

Neither choosing the four year old piano in a heavily trafficked store or choosing a piano whose tone one doesn't like is an ideal choice. That's why many posters recommended the OP ask the dealer to voice the piano more to her liking before committing to purchase.

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Originally Posted by Withindale
Originally Posted by Athdara
Originally Posted by Athdara
My Sauter upright was pretty bright when it first arrived a few years ago, but now the sound is much more mellow and warmer. She sings so beautifully now I tear when my teacher plays a piece I love (I'm sure it's also because he plays well haha). If you don't wish to wait for a few years then take the display model.

forgot to add: I did get it voiced once, about a year or two after it arrived so it'll be mellower, but back then, even after voicing, the sound was still.. a little stiff.

I have sneaky feeling Estella may be wise in choosing one of the new pianos. Athdara's posts speak for themselves. Last year a member from Singapore said a Fazioli imported for Angela Hewitt had much improved after two or three years. I can't remember his exact words but resonance and suppleness come to mind. From memory it hadn't been voiced.

If you fancy a new piano would you opt for a four year old floor model from a heavily trafficked store in Hong Kong?
Actually, I would, provided the floor model was in "as new" condition.
Why?
I would already know how that piano sounds and feels. Whatever settling in necessary to acclimate to Hong Kong's temperatures and humidity would already have been accomplished. The piano would have been voiced, and, yes, to a certain extent, the action MIGHT have been "worn in" past the initial factory setting.

With the other two pianos, there's just no way to know how they will develop as they ripen with age. As stated previously, de minimus, they should be auditioned in the same room as the floor sample, and, if at all possible voiced to match the floor sample. Only then, if the new one equaled (or bettered) the floor sample would I buy the new one.

I bought a Young-Chang 208cm with a Weber stencil on it in the early 1990's that had been a floor model used for in store recitals. Of course students played/pounded on it while it was on display. It was a terrific piano. I went through the first hammers and a second (Abel Natural Selects, Medium Weight) before selling it to someone who loves it to this day. Finish was perfect when I bought it, yes, a little bit of hammer wear, but it stayed stable throughout its life with me.

So, yes, not only would I buy a floor sample, I did.

Beyond that, the usual caveats, and the obligatory YMMV :-)


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Originally Posted by Withindale
Originally Posted by Athdara
Originally Posted by Athdara
My Sauter upright was pretty bright when it first arrived a few years ago, but now the sound is much more mellow and warmer. She sings so beautifully now I tear when my teacher plays a piece I love (I'm sure it's also because he plays well haha). If you don't wish to wait for a few years then take the display model.

forgot to add: I did get it voiced once, about a year or two after it arrived so it'll be mellower, but back then, even after voicing, the sound was still.. a little stiff.

I have sneaky feeling Estella may be wise in choosing one of the new pianos. Athdara's posts speak for themselves. Last year a member from Singapore said a Fazioli imported for Angela Hewitt had much improved after two or three years. I can't remember his exact words but resonance and suppleness come to mind. From memory it hadn't been voiced.

If you fancy a new piano would you opt for a four year old floor model from a heavily trafficked store in Hong Kong?
I do not know where Estrella and Athdara live, but Pandora was distracted and opened a box..Athdara says she now loves her piano. That is what she wrote.We do not have to question her or be suspicious about that.This whole thread is not only about Estrella buying a Sauter MC (which it seems she never tried) it is about people and thier perceptions.

We have not tried any of these Sauter pianos so we really do not know how they sound!!! Being a new piano the piano will be adjusting to its environment.It sounds awfully humid in Hong Kong,.nevertheless any new piano needs to adjust.The strings need to stretch, and as I said before some people do not notice how out of tune a piano is.They are just dissatisfied with the tone and they cannot perceive what the problem is.(oh its so bright) There must have been great expectations about buying a Sauter MC yet none of us really know what the problem is. Saying all of this I would only buy a piano I have played a number of times.I would suggest exchanging the piano for the floor model is perhaps the only solution.Unless there REALLY are 2 Masterclass models in the store.Please try before you buy.

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Yes its quite possible that Angela Hewitt does enjoy playing her new Fazioli piano now more than she used to.


My piano's voice is my voice to God and the great unknown universe, and to those I love.In other words a hymn.That is all, but that is enough.Life goes on, despite pain and fear.Music is beautiful,life is beautiful.


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Originally Posted by Wzkit1
While I can certainly empathise with view of clean, almost sterile sound, my own experience suggests the Fazioli tone may be a bit more malleable commonly perceived. Case in point was a Fazioli 278 brought in for Angela Hewitt's recital a few years back. Fresh out of the crate, the sound was certainly clean and neutral- rather close to the sound in Goran Filipec's video above, and frankly not to my tastes. But after a year, the sound had blossomed - a slightly mellower attack that still possessed the trademark Fazioli clarity, coupled with the appearance of more complex overtones. Either way, the result was closer to my preference.

Here is the direct quote from the post I mentioned. After a year, "the sound had blossomed", "a slightly mellower attack", "more complex overtones".


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Originally Posted by Withindale
Originally Posted by Wzkit1
While I can certainly empathise with view of clean, almost sterile sound, my own experience suggests the Fazioli tone may be a bit more malleable commonly perceived. Case in point was a Fazioli 278 brought in for Angela Hewitt's recital a few years back. Fresh out of the crate, the sound was certainly clean and neutral- rather close to the sound in Goran Filipec's video above, and frankly not to my tastes. But after a year, the sound had blossomed - a slightly mellower attack that still possessed the trademark Fazioli clarity, coupled with the appearance of more complex overtones. Either way, the result was closer to my preference.

Here is the direct quote from the post I mentioned. After a year, "the sound had blossomed", "a slightly mellower attack", "more complex overtones".
Yes thank you Withindale, perfectly understandable too!

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I think Angela Hewitt probably liked her new Fazioli a lot from the beginning. I also can't imagine that the personal piano of top pianist didn't get some or even considerable voicing over a period of a few years. Even small amounts of voicing at each tuning, which is very typical, could improve the sound of the piano.

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Originally Posted by Starre
Hi Estella, I am quite sure it will be fine. Sauter is a quality piano. I had similar experience with my Seiler upright, you might even like a little brighter sound in the long run, use it and tune every 6 months to start with.
Nice to hear Starre 🙂

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Originally Posted by Withindale
I have sneaky feeling Estella may be wise in choosing one of the new pianos. Athdara's posts speak for themselves. Last year a member from Singapore said a Fazioli imported for Angela Hewitt had much improved after two or three years. I can't remember his exact words but resonance and suppleness come to mind. From memory it hadn't been voiced.

That memher was me. That Fazioli had not been voiced, but the dealer - an excellent master tech - had it regulated in such a way that significantly changed the tone of the instrument. This was not the first time i had witnessed him altering the tone through regulation - he did that with both my Bosendorfer and Sauter, as well as my Steinways.

Being an owner of a Sauter Delta myself, one scenario i can imagine where the piano got mellower over time is if the instrument was consistently exposed to the much higher humidity that is prevalent here (>70pct). The humidity not only has an effect on the soundboard (resonance) but possibily on the hammers as well (softer and thus mellower/muffled in general). Of course, almost all pianos respond to higher humidity in general, but i notice the change was more pronoumced on my Sauter, than say my Bosendorfer.


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Originally Posted by Wzkit1
Originally Posted by Withindale
I have sneaky feeling Estella may be wise in choosing one of the new pianos. Athdara's posts speak for themselves. Last year a member from Singapore said a Fazioli imported for Angela Hewitt had much improved after two or three years. I can't remember his exact words but resonance and suppleness come to mind. From memory it hadn't been voiced.

That memher was me. That Fazioli had not been voiced, but the dealer - an excellent master tech - had it regulated in such a way that significantly changed the tone of the instrument. This was not the first time i had witnessed him altering the tone through regulation - he did that with both my Bosendorfer and Sauter, as well as my Steinways.
I find it hard to believe that the Fazioli hadn't been voiced, probably to a considerable extent, at the factory.

How can regulating affect voicing? I can understand how voicing can affect regulation but not the other way around.

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Originally Posted by pianoloverus
Originally Posted by Wzkit1
Originally Posted by Withindale
I have sneaky feeling Estella may be wise in choosing one of the new pianos. Athdara's posts speak for themselves. Last year a member from Singapore said a Fazioli imported for Angela Hewitt had much improved after two or three years. I can't remember his exact words but resonance and suppleness come to mind. From memory it hadn't been voiced.

That memher was me. That Fazioli had not been voiced, but the dealer - an excellent master tech - had it regulated in such a way that significantly changed the tone of the instrument. This was not the first time i had witnessed him altering the tone through regulation - he did that with both my Bosendorfer and Sauter, as well as my Steinways.
I find it hard to believe that the Fazioli hadn't been voiced, probably to a considerable extent, at the factory.

How can regulating affect voicing? I can understand how voicing can affect regulation but not the other way around.

Of course the Fazioli had been meticulously voiced at the factory, but not after it was delivered. I know that that it had been regulated, as the touch felt considerably lighter (perhaps with a shallower key depth as well), even as it sounded mellower with more overtones. While i'm not in a position to explain the technical details of how this was done, i had seen him do this on my other instruments, and seeing/hearing is believing.


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Originally Posted by pianoloverus
How can regulating affect voicing? I can understand how voicing can affect regulation but not the other way around.

Presumably, regulating an action can affect a number of ways the hammer could interact with the strings. The touchweight and be increased or reduced, the hammers can be shifted over to strike the strings more straight/leveled, the entire keybed can be shimmed to one side or other (or front/back), things like that?


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Originally Posted by Gombessa
Originally Posted by pianoloverus
How can regulating affect voicing? I can understand how voicing can affect regulation but not the other way around.

Presumably, regulating an action can affect a number of ways the hammer could interact with the strings. The touchweight and be increased or reduced, the hammers can be shifted over to strike the strings more straight/leveled, the entire keybed can be shimmed to one side or other (or front/back), things like that?
Possibly, but I don't think changing the touch weight would change the tone, and one would assume things like adjusting how the hammers hit the string would have been done to the nth degree at the Fazioli factory. Perhaps some techs can comment on whether and how regulation can change the tone assuming the piano has been extremely well regulated at the factory.

In my previous post I should have said I can understand how voicing can affect TOUCH(not regulation).

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I've experienced that regulation affects touch, which affects how the pianist responds, which can change the tone. Or conversely, my tech is going to voice down my hammers to change my touch perception. Unintuitive, but this is something I've recently seen after getting the new action and hammers!


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