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Well, it may be for more than a little bit, as my dedicated VST system is now repurposed and strongly spoken for laugh

[Linked Image]

Yeah, there's a mess of coiled cables, but there's only a single power cord coming down the back for the entire setup (including the monitor) Everything else is hidden in the back, or wireless. It's about as close to an all-in-one as I can get.

Why move away from Garritan now? I figured there's already a bit too much unbridled electronics hanging off the bottom of my piano, and I've actually been happy enough practicing silently using the built-in sound, which I imagine is some flavor of the binaural CFX (is it the one in the CLP-775? 785? P-515? N1X? Who knows....).

The only thing I actively *dislike* about the built-in sound is that in my Sennheiser HD-598s, there's an *extremely* strong resonance when holding notes 4 tones apart in the treble range. Play F5 and C5? D#6 and A#5? Dog whistle stuff, it's so loud. No other intervals sound as strong, including octaves. Interestingly, it's less prominent with other headphones (still there, but not jarring enough to stand out too much) the Sennheisers just really amplify it a lot.


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Quote
and I've actually been happy enough practicing silently using the built-in sound, which I imagine is some flavor of the binaural CFX

Have you replaced your NV-10 with an N1X?


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no he replaced it with something much more expensive lol


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It's got...of all things, an odometer shocked

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This is something I wish all my DPs had smile


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ha that is cool


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@Gombessa,
I saw that your Bose has Yamaha MSP3 speakers under the soundboard. How do they sound? And why would somebody use them instead of real sound?


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Originally Posted by Falsch
Have you replaced your NV-10 with an N1X?

Yes, to be less oblique, I've made the move to an acoustic, but as I still need silent play, I got one with a Disklavier system, which incorporates some aspect of Yamaha's DPs, including the binaural CFX sample, as well as the key sensing systems from the Avantgrands. Oddly enough, it has a completely different hammer sensor system than the N1X...to be honest, I can't find diddlysquat in terms of details of the sound engine. Which I'm starting to think is kind of the acoustic piano way? confused

Originally Posted by VladK
@Gombessa,
I saw that your Bose has Yamaha MSP3 speakers under the soundboard. How do they sound? And why would somebody use them instead of real sound?

They're actually pretty great, surprisingly. I'm not sure why. I think part of it may be because they're bolted to the backposts and impart sound to the real soundboard. Part of it is their physical distance from the player, and part of it is that they're not pointed directly at the player in that "ideal studio monitor" spread that to me sounds very directed and artificial. They actually sound pretty real when you're at the keyboard, not that they're better than playing acoustically.

Why would you use them? Three main reasons. If you don't want to use headphones but still want to play more quietly than in real acoustic mode, speaker output gives you the ability to adjust volume. If you want to play one of the other instruments like the organ or harpsichord or MIDI instruments out loud. And the most interesting, the Disklavier's player functionality has separate channels for backing track and voice, all in addition to the piano playback. So you can not only play back standard "piano roll" recordings, but also orchestral/instrumental accompaniments to the piano (which would play acoustically), as well as recorded vocals (so it would be your piano playing to Adele or Elton John's singing, if you're into that).

To be honest, I don't really use the speakers much, because my primary use case is headphone play. But I guess it's nice to have them for these other use cases.


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Wow nice upgrade. Hope you enjoying your new toy laugh


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Originally Posted by Gombessa
Originally Posted by Falsch
Have you replaced your NV-10 with an N1X?

Yes, to be less oblique, I've made the move to an acoustic, but as I still need silent play, I got one with a Disklavier system, which incorporates some aspect of Yamaha's DPs, including the binaural CFX sample, as well as the key sensing systems from the Avantgrands. Oddly enough, it has a completely different hammer sensor system than the N1X...to be honest, I can't find diddlysquat in terms of details of the sound engine. Which I'm starting to think is kind of the acoustic piano way? confused

So you actually have a 214cm Bösendorfer with-selfplay & silent-play capability?

Let's rephrase that, because I don't particularly care about self-play stuf...

You have a Bösendorfer grand (of whatever length) including a silent-play system?

I now hates you forever. Normally I'm not a jealous person, but for this one occasion I'll make an exception. There you go. I'm now officially jealous.

If I ever get the space / house to own a grand (not possible in an apartment, not even a big one), a Bösendorfer outfitted with a silent system would certainly be one of the considerations.

Congratulations with the piano, and good luck with the second and third mortgage. (Or, congratulations with winning the lottery :P)

Somewhat OT: And no... I would never buy a Chinese piano that happens to have a German name of a company that actually doesn't exist anymore... or worse, a Chinese piano that just has some random German-sounding name. If I'd ever buy a grand, it would probably be a European brand that is still actually European (or owned by a Japanese firm such as Bösendorfer), or a Kawai. I'm just not convinced by the plethora of Chinese and Korean piano's... but OK. That's another topic.

Last edited by Falsch; 05/10/22 07:21 PM.

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Originally Posted by Gombessa
Oddly enough, it has a completely different hammer sensor system than the N1X...

I wonder if it's more closely related to Bosendorfer's former CEUS system, which I gather was developed by Friedrich Lachnit (who now runs the FLKeys company)? Incidentally, I was fortunate enough to meet Friedrich at Musikmesse a few years ago, while overseeing the NV10 presentation.

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Originally Posted by Falsch
So you actually have a 214cm Bösendorfer with-selfplay & silent-play capability?

Congratulations with the piano, and good luck with the second and third mortgage. (Or, congratulations with winning the lottery :P)

Thanks!! Yeah...it was a kind of a surreal check to write, in a kind of "this could literally be the financial move that undoes me" kind of way... And I'll be totally honest, a HUGE part of the reason I ended up here is because it was much harder than expected to find something with a significantly better keyfeel than the NV-10. Cross my heart.

I posted a bit in the Piano forum about my search. But I've been going through my old pieces from a couple of years ago and trying all kinds of wacky stuff with it:



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Originally Posted by Kawai James
I wonder if it's more closely related to Bosendorfer's former CEUS system, which I gather was developed by Friedrich Lachnit (who now runs the FLKeys company)? Incidentally, I was fortunate enough to meet Friedrich at Musikmesse a few years ago, while overseeing the NV10 presentation.

That's a good thought...doing some basic research, it seems Bosendofer has quite a long history of innovation in the player piano space, including the "Bosendorfer SE" developed by Wayne Stahnke (who worked on the Yamaha Disklavier as well as the Steinway Spirio) in the 1990s, and later with the CEUS in the 2010s. But the CUES mechanism looks pretty bespoke, with hammer shutters mounted right before the hammerheads (as opposed to closer to the flange), and with cables hanging under the piano that tug on the pedals (?!!).

The Disklaviers in the current Bosendorfers on the other hand seem to be identical to what is currently offered on Yamaha grands - the Enspire Pro model. I can even get into a maintenance mode and choose a C3, C5/C7 or CFX as an option (under what that does?) and switch the UI to show Yamaha. So I think Bosendofer has shelved all of their custom work and adopted the Yamaha system entirely, though they do include several hundred of their SE/CEUS piano roll transcriptions of Rachmaninoff, etc.

The oddity with Yamaha is that they have completely unique sensors on some of their Disklaviers that you'd think they would use on the AvantGrands, but they don't. The ENPro has a hammer gradient sensor!! This is in addition to the well-known key gradient sensor in the AGs, which use a binary shutter. What's more, the Enspire systems on their uprights have optical hammer shutters too, which you would think would be a natural fit for the NU1X due to the limitations of just using key sensors. But...they don't use it there. I'm sure they have their reasons, but there seem to be a lot of one-off implementations on that side of Hamamatsu smile

I would think the hybrid crowd would be interested in all the weird and wonderful stuff happening in the player/silent world, but there's a total dearth of information out there!


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You bought a Yamaha subsidiary instead of the real thing? How could you!


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Originally Posted by Gombessa
Thanks!! Yeah...it was a kind of a surreal check to write, in a kind of "this could literally be the financial move that undoes me" kind of way... And I'll be totally honest, a HUGE part of the reason I ended up here is because it was much harder than expected to find something with a significantly better keyfeel than the NV-10. Cross my heart.

Yeah, that's always the thing. Could I afford to buy a (let's say) €25-30K grand? Yes, but I don't think I could bear to see my bank account fall by that much for a piano. For that to happen, I would need to be in a position of "€25-30K? Whatever. That's what I spend for some fun every few weeks." I don't think that's ever going to happen. I'm mentioning €25-30K because at the moment, there are two Bösendorfers for sale in a nearby store, made in the 1960's, which have been restored with new strings, hammers, pinblock and keytops. And they don't even have a silent system yet.

If I ever buy a grand piano, it will probably at a point in my life where money basically doesn't matter anymore, where having €X or €X + 25K in a bank account makes no difference. Maybe after retirement... which is still _many_ years away. (I'm not even halfway there...)

There are two reasons that would make me replace the NV-10 at some point:

- The software is... uh... underwhelming. I have found at least two ways to make the GUI crash and the Favorites part is laughable IMHO. Organs had that stuff worked out in the 90's already. (Ever played a Technics organ, piano or keyboard? There's a user-interface for you.)
- On headphones, all piano variations except Classical and Vintage are unusable because of the "cracking / sticky tape" sound when releasing the keys.

And the software is still at the same version it was at when I got the NV-10 almost 16 months ago, so I doubt it will be updated.

Fortunately Classical and Vintage are my favorite sounds in the NV-10, and I just made a bunch of favorites by setting up the piano from scratch for each. One of those is just passing control to PianoTeq, which gives me the New York and Hamburg Steinway's, the K2 ("a piano based on the best things of one of the big piano brands"; I assume Kawai), and a huge selection of vintage instruments through the Kremsegg, Kivir and Karsten collections.

So in the end I don't do a lot with the NV-10 except turn it on, select a favorite, and play, so I basically avoid the two problems it has.

On the one hand, when seeing something like a massive Bösendorfer, Blüthner or August Förster (for some reason, these are the three brands I like best), I have a reaction of "I want that!"
On the other hand, I have to be honest and realize that I'm NOWHERE near good enough to do a grand like that justice. I even can't with the NV-10. (I'm an organ-player who turned to the piano after the home organ market died when Roland left it, and Hammond decided that a digital Hammond-organ should cost around the vicinity of a small grand. So that was a big switch, and I play around ABRSM level 4-5 now... so intermediate at best.)

But I'm still jealous of that Bösendorfer.

Last edited by Falsch; 05/11/22 06:53 AM.

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Originally Posted by Falsch
So in the end I don't do a lot with the NV-10 except turn it on, select a favorite, and play, so I basically avoid the two problems it has.
Bonus to this ideal approach is that you just focus on playing.

Originally Posted by Falsch
(I'm an organ-player who turned to the piano after the home organ market died when Roland left it, and Hammond decided that a digital Hammond-organ should cost around the vicinity of a small grand.
I suppose used models are not a bad option. Or Hauptwerk.

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Originally Posted by Falsch
- On headphones, all piano variations except Classical and Vintage are unusable because of the "cracking / sticky tape" sound when releasing the keys.
0h I think I heard this as well. A couple of years abck I reported hearing a kind of "sssnk" sound on most of the other piano voices, associated with the certain timings of key-off? It was confirmed in the sound engine and Kawai sent a beta firmware that made it a little better but didn't eliminate it.

Originally Posted by Falsch
So in the end I don't do a lot with the NV-10 except turn it on, select a favorite, and play, so I basically avoid the two problems it has.
That's exactly what I did as well. One favorite on startup for Garritan CFX, another with local on for built-in sounds, and I had an audio switch set up for VST input. Just turn on and play, dead simple.

Originally Posted by Falsch
On the other hand, I have to be honest and realize that I'm NOWHERE near good enough to do a grand like that justice...I play around ABRSM level 4-5 now... so intermediate at best.)

I wouldn't let that point stop you...
1. I certainly can't do the new grand justice either, not by far.

2. If the only people who could buy pianos were those who could do the instruments justice, I'm confident that Bosendorfer would not be in business. Bluthner would not be in business. August Forster would not. Steinway certainly would have folded. I guess I'm lucky that the instrument I can have doesn't need to be the instrument I deserve.


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I have also left the VST jungle completely… I’m extremely happy with the built in sounds on my GX-2 ATX4 that I’m just smiling every time I play with my headphones.. the playability is just amazing!! 😄

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Originally Posted by newer player
Bonus to this ideal approach is that you just focus on playing.

Yes. Because the NV-10 doesn't allow editing favorites, I just created a few from scratch. Fortunately I didn't have to adjust a lot.

Vintage
Vintage HP
Classical
Classical HP
PianoTeq
PianoTeq HP

HP = for headphones. In my appartmnet, this piano NEEDS Wall-EQ or it will be super-boomy. It is right up against the wall under a sloped roof. I mostly play with the Vintage sound or one of the historical PianoTeq piano's.

Quote
I suppose used models are not a bad option. Or Hauptwerk.

I have nothing against used instruments, but in the case of digital stuff, I wouldn't want to pay lots of money for a 90's or early-2000 organ and then have it break at some point... with no manufacturer to fix it.

I thought about Hauptwerk but decided against it. Before the piano I had a Nord C2D Hammond/Classical organ. Let's say the classical organ isn't well suited for non-lithurgical music or solo stuff. That is why I switched to the piano.


Originally Posted by Gombessa
0h I think I heard this as well. A couple of years abck I reported hearing a kind of "sssnk" sound on most of the other piano voices, associated with the certain timings of key-off? It was confirmed in the sound engine and Kawai sent a beta firmware that made it a little better but didn't eliminate it.

That's it, indeed. But the NV-10 hasn't had a firmware update for nearly 1.5 years, even though I know of at least a few bugs.

Quote
That's exactly what I did as well. One favorite on startup for Garritan CFX, another with local on for built-in sounds, and I had an audio switch set up for VST input. Just turn on and play, dead simple.

Even though favorites on the NV-10 are cumbersome IMHO, they're still better than the LX-17's "registrations", where global piano settings were conflated with the registrations themselves. I never got switching from local to PianoTeq to work with the Roland, without additional fiddling around.

Quote
2. If the only people who could buy pianos were those who could do the instruments justice, I'm confident that Bosendorfer would not be in business. Bluthner would not be in business. August Forster would not. Steinway certainly would have folded. I guess I'm lucky that the instrument I can have doesn't need to be the instrument I deserve.

Maybe that's true enough. When I had stuck to the instrument I deserve, I should have kept my MP7. I would have LOVED a 61-note two-manual version of the MP7 with upper/lower/bass drawbars. Add a bass pedal, and it would have been one of the best ORGANS I've ever had. It was a massive perk that the MP7 could pull any instrument through the Vibrato and Rotary Speaker effects; not just the drawbars. Most organs reserve Vibrato and the Rotary for the Hammond/Tonewheel simulation, but not the MP7. Some of the synth patches (or combinations thereof) through the Vibrato and/or Rotary were positively epic.

If Kawai would ever create an MP77, with 2x 61-note manuals and 20 drawbars for the tonewheel simulator, even if they don't add or change anything else, I would buy that in a heart-beat. I could build it myself using a second keyboard or something, but that would always be kludgey.

Last edited by Falsch; 05/11/22 10:59 AM.

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Originally Posted by Falsch
I thought about Hauptwerk but decided against it.
I tried Hauptwerk with good speakers and a huge subwoofer. I thought it sounded pretty good and shook the whole house. I don't play organ so can't speak for the playability or sound quality to be honest. There are forums for setting up and tweaking Hauptwerk.

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Originally Posted by newer player
Originally Posted by Falsch
I thought about Hauptwerk but decided against it.
I tried Hauptwerk with good speakers and a huge subwoofer. I thought it sounded pretty good and shook the whole house. I don't play organ so can't speak for the playability or sound quality to be honest. There are forums for setting up and tweaking Hauptwerk.

I know; I just didn't want to go from Hammond & Home organ to full church organ. It's not that good for solo-ing popular music which I sometimes like to do :P


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