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Originally Posted by terminaldegree
To my knowledge, PB pricing was just updated in the last month.
$31k is a lot of money for any 5’3” piano, in my mind. But maybe that’s the reality of the current market, and it’s been a while since I’ve played a C1.

So long ago? The prices need to be updated daily so we can all wring our hands over them and tear out our hair.

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Originally Posted by LarryK
Originally Posted by terminaldegree
To my knowledge, PB pricing was just updated in the last month.
$31k is a lot of money for any 5’3” piano, in my mind. But maybe that’s the reality of the current market, and it’s been a while since I’ve played a C1.

So long ago? The prices need to be updated daily so we can all wring our hands over them and tear out our hair.

It does seem a bit madness to me, as I look at an advertised price (by my local dealer and before negotiating) of £18,445 for a new C1X. Presumably it is the same cost, or a bit cheaper, to ship a piano from Japan to the US rather than to the UK?

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Originally Posted by gwing
Originally Posted by LarryK
Originally Posted by terminaldegree
To my knowledge, PB pricing was just updated in the last month.
$31k is a lot of money for any 5’3” piano, in my mind. But maybe that’s the reality of the current market, and it’s been a while since I’ve played a C1.

So long ago? The prices need to be updated daily so we can all wring our hands over them and tear out our hair.

It does seem a bit madness to me, as I look at an advertised price (by my local dealer and before negotiating) of £18,445 for a new C1X. Presumably it is the same cost, or a bit cheaper, to ship a piano from Japan to the US rather than to the UK?

Isn’t the first rule of business that one should never reveal their costs? We can speculate over the various costs but I don’t think we know anything for certain.

I spent four years writing software for a container shipping company. Shipping rates vary based on supply and demand, of course, and with the large amount of goods imported into the US, I would expect container rates to be higher than those for the UK but I don’t know.

The woman who owns the Seven Dragons paper company in China, got her start by collecting scrap cardboard and paper in New Jersey. She realized the rates on containers back to China were so cheap that it was economical to ship scrap paper!

Container shipping is a competitive business but also one in which there is a large amount of cooperation, based on who has the right to sail which routes. All of those different colored shipping containers on the same ship show the level of cooperation in the industry.

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Thats a possibility but tgat woukd not explain such a price difference. Both Uk and several countries in Europe put roughly the advertised price around 22 to 23 keuros ie 25 k dollars before price negotiation. So it would seem difficult to explain a 31k price other than by the dealer margin. Which does not mean it is necessarily an illegitimate price in the us given local market conditions and practice. But in UK and in most western european countries you could get that piano for (much) less than 25kd.

I did read though that the MSRP is on average around 40% above actual selling price in the us. I dont know the us market so i cant say if that is accurate or not.


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Originally Posted by Sidokar
But in UK and in most western european countries you could get that piano for (much) less than 25kd.

I did read though that the MSRP is on average around 40% above actual selling price in the us. I dont know the us market so i cant say if that is accurate or not.

It’s true that local markets will mean different pricing. A good example of this is The Economist’s Big Mac index which shows the price of a Big Mac in most or all countries where McDonald’s operates and thus reflects large variety in price. One will note, rightly, that a Big Mac is different than a Yamaha piano because Big Macs are likely sourced and produced locally whereas CX series pianos are all made in Japan, and then exported for local sale. Point is I accept local variation - to a degree. Obviously, the overhead in a city like San Francisco is likely going to be higher than say the mid-west, and therefore would make the same piano more expensive. The trick is knowing where the price effect of the local market ends and higher dealer margin begins. Probably unknowable for all but the dealer. But PW is a huge help to get some comparable pricing! So thank you again to this community for all the great insights!

I do agree 31k is too high. 25 feels like a great buy and 28 fair (using the 20-30% from SMP). A used C1X would also be an option if available.


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Well, Jadam, you are certainly getting a priceless piano-shopping education. I can tell that your taste is becoming refined through this process--- personally, I would be ready to come home from shopping and immerse my head in a tub of water and crushed ice. It cools down the piano fever, and fast. In these pages we see people succumb to this fever with, sometimes, very regrettable results, but I don't think you're at this advanced stage, yet. Perhaps lying down for a short rest, with a cold cloth on your forehead would be good enough. You could listen to your recordings while your brain cools down.

And who knows--- you may not have it at all. It could be that you are, simply, a paragon of industry and thoroughness, and what you're doing now is simply who you are. But I think that a brain that is turning over this fast, for this long, is one that requires very frequent oil changes lest the cylinders freeze up. Maybe I mean, melt together; this happened to my partner. He was driving back from Santa Cruz when he saw smoke coming from under the hood. But, instead of pulling over and calling Triple-A, he kept driving. Didn't get all that far. But that was in a Mazda; now we buy Subaru's, and he gets back from the coast OK.

I think what I'm trying to say is, you are going to end up resorting to a goldfish bowl, with every piano model you really want put into its own sealed envelope. And why? It is because you are trying to serve too many masters. You cannot get everything you want from a single piano and a single house. It cannot both occupy the space and also preserve the view and natural light. I can't see that any one model is going to perfectly suit both the present and the future, though that is, truly, your best economy. You might make a deal that captures the price before the looming increase (and yes, inflation is that much; look at your grocery store tape from last month, and this week's), and even buy now, but take delivery after your remodel is finished. That deal is available. But, in those two months, you might find the perfect piano and such a great deal, and--- think of the buyer's remorse.

So, draw one. Better yet, let your wife pick the winning envelope, granting her three veto votes. You'll get there (as long as you have at least four envelopes). All the contestants are winners, in your view, and I think your wife would have to admit that her preferences were fairly taken into account.

This is not the only method. The very best is, draw the winner out of the goldfish bowl, and then get the one you really want anyway. You could consult the I Ching; you could cast your tarot cards for a glimpse of happiness both with a new piano and with your family. Or you could just make up your mind.

Such a lot of great choices, and you do sound like a very nice fellow, with such a great family. I gaze into my crystal ball, and I see happiness now, and growth which fits into that happiness. Oh--- you're thinking that learning to play the piano is going to make you happy. It is not. It will torture you. People only do this because they can't help themselves; something inside them just has to come out; it's almost worse for advanced players. But we just learn to take it as it comes. It is hard, but still beautiful.

Best of luck to you!


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Some further updates.

Spent most of the afternoon yesterday trying out:

Uprights
Wil. Steinberg, S125 and S130
Grotrian GS-132
Steingraber 130
Baldwin B252
Schulze Pollmann SU132A

Grands
Grotrian G-165
Estonia L168
Estonia L210


Grands, you say? What about the uprights with which you titled this thread? Yes, I played the grands....wouldn't you?

So, on to the results: nothing was bad, that's for sure. It's the question of what was great (for me).

Steinberg - nice piano. Felt kind of like a YUS5 in a way. I wasn't awestruck though.

Moved on to the Grotrian. Wow, what bass. Almost made you feel like you were playing a grand. Really round bass and tenor and felt very loud (although the DB meter on the phone did not agree with that - completely in line with everything else I've played volume-wise). Really beautiful feel as well. However, definitely not in the budget price-wise (mid 40K or so). Glad I played it. I came back to this one a few times, price be damned.

The Steingraber was next and while also amazing, did not resonate with me as much sound-wise. I did prefer the action on this over the Grotrian - it felt a bit lighter and even, but this is a personal preference and not a knock at all on the Grotrian.

The Baldwin was not very much in tune (and I was warned as such), but the action/feel felt nice, while the bass and tenor was very prominent (almost too much) - somewhat at the expense of the treble.

The Schulze-Pollman was a nice surprise having read about the brand in PB, but not seen it ever before nor hearing a lot of people's first-hand experience. I feel like the tagline could be: "European sound and feel at a great price." With a really nice cabinet to boot. I ended up playing this one close to last after a few hours so I was getting some ear fatigue at this point. I might have to go back and play this again with fresh ears.

On the grands, I'm still holding out hope for a smaller, 5' 8" or less size grand so I that led me to the Estonia L168. I was really looking forward to playing this as I've heard such great things about Estonia. Alas, this particular model didn't do it for me - again, nothing wrong with it, but it just didn't speak to me. I liked the action and feel but sound-wise preferred other makes in this size (e.g., the C2X), or like....

The Grotrian G-165. What a stunner - really liked this best of all, a very well balanced bass through the treble with the sounds clear and sparkling without being shrill. The action and feel was great as well. Alas (again), the price for this was beyond my budget.

For kicks, there was also an Estonia L210. Just a gorgeous sounding piano with wonderful tone and feel. Very different from the 168. It has been my experience that different sizes of the same series (Yamaha CX or Kawai GX) have a similar type of sound with the bass/fullness increasing as you get into larger sizes - like they are very much related. I didn't feel this way about these two Estonias - these two pianos felt like pianos from different mothers (or fathers or both). Perhaps this 168 is an outlier and not representative of other 168s.

In sum, everything I liked here was out of my budget except for the Sch. Pollmann, which I will come back to play again. No regrets on the time spent - I was really well taken care of by the dealer and learned a lot about pianos!

My next step is to go revisit the other contenders: Bechstein A124, Yamaha YUS5 for uprights and on the grand side, the Kawai GX-2, and Yamaha C2X and a used C2 that sounded great to me. The only other brand on my list I haven't yet tried is Seiler, so that's also in my future. Oh, and the Bechstein dealer now has a Hoffmann T128 upright in stock to try so that's another one to play. There is also a used L168 in the bay area from 2003 or so to try. Some have mentioned that Estonias were re-designed after that year so those may not "as good." All I can do is try them.

More to come.


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Originally Posted by Jadam
On the grands, I'm still holding out hope for a smaller, 5' 8" or less size grand so I that led me to the Estonia L168. I was really looking forward to playing this as I've heard such great things about Estonia. Alas, this particular model didn't do it for me - again, nothing wrong with it, but it just didn't speak to me. I liked the action and feel but sound-wise preferred other makes in this size (e.g., the C2X), or like....

For kicks, there was also an Estonia L210. Just a gorgeous sounding piano with wonderful tone and feel. Very different from the 168. It has been my experience that different sizes of the same series (Yamaha CX or Kawai GX) have a similar type of sound with the bass/fullness increasing as you get into larger sizes - like they are very much related. I didn't feel this way about these two Estonias - these two pianos felt like pianos from different mothers (or fathers or both). Perhaps this 168 is an outlier and not representative of other 168s.

This is worrying to me. The Estonia Model 168 that I tried recently blew me away, even in comparison to bigger and more expensive pianos. I had the same gorgeous/wonderful reaction that you had to the tone of the 210.

Was it a new one that you tried? Which dealer was it? Is such variability in the Estonias to be expected?

Have you had a chance to audition one of the Lothar Thomma Ritmüllers?

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Originally Posted by Jadam
Some further updates.

Spent most of the afternoon yesterday trying out:

Uprights
Wil. Steinberg, S125 and S130
Grotrian GS-132
Steingraber 130
Baldwin B252
Schulze Pollmann SU132A

Grands
Grotrian G-165
Estonia L168
Estonia L210


Grands, you say? What about the uprights with which you titled this thread? Yes, I played the grands....wouldn't you?

So, on to the results: nothing was bad, that's for sure. It's the question of what was great (for me).

Steinberg - nice piano. Felt kind of like a YUS5 in a way. I wasn't awestruck though.

Moved on to the Grotrian. Wow, what bass. Almost made you feel like you were playing a grand. Really round bass and tenor and felt very loud (although the DB meter on the phone did not agree with that - completely in line with everything else I've played volume-wise). Really beautiful feel as well. However, definitely not in the budget price-wise (mid 40K or so). Glad I played it. I came back to this one a few times, price be damned.

The Steingraber was next and while also amazing, did not resonate with me as much sound-wise. I did prefer the action on this over the Grotrian - it felt a bit lighter and even, but this is a personal preference and not a knock at all on the Grotrian.

The Baldwin was not very much in tune (and I was warned as such), but the action/feel felt nice, while the bass and tenor was very prominent (almost too much) - somewhat at the expense of the treble.

The Schulze-Pollman was a nice surprise having read about the brand in PB, but not seen it ever before nor hearing a lot of people's first-hand experience. I feel like the tagline could be: "European sound and feel at a great price." With a really nice cabinet to boot. I ended up playing this one close to last after a few hours so I was getting some ear fatigue at this point. I might have to go back and play this again with fresh ears.

On the grands, I'm still holding out hope for a smaller, 5' 8" or less size grand so I that led me to the Estonia L168. I was really looking forward to playing this as I've heard such great things about Estonia. Alas, this particular model didn't do it for me - again, nothing wrong with it, but it just didn't speak to me. I liked the action and feel but sound-wise preferred other makes in this size (e.g., the C2X), or like....

The Grotrian G-165. What a stunner - really liked this best of all, a very well balanced bass through the treble with the sounds clear and sparkling without being shrill. The action and feel was great as well. Alas (again), the price for this was beyond my budget.

For kicks, there was also an Estonia L210. Just a gorgeous sounding piano with wonderful tone and feel. Very different from the 168. It has been my experience that different sizes of the same series (Yamaha CX or Kawai GX) have a similar type of sound with the bass/fullness increasing as you get into larger sizes - like they are very much related. I didn't feel this way about these two Estonias - these two pianos felt like pianos from different mothers (or fathers or both). Perhaps this 168 is an outlier and not representative of other 168s.

In sum, everything I liked here was out of my budget except for the Sch. Pollmann, which I will come back to play again. No regrets on the time spent - I was really well taken care of by the dealer and learned a lot about pianos!

My next step is to go revisit the other contenders: Bechstein A124, Yamaha YUS5 for uprights and on the grand side, the Kawai GX-2, and Yamaha C2X and a used C2 that sounded great to me. The only other brand on my list I haven't yet tried is Seiler, so that's also in my future. Oh, and the Bechstein dealer now has a Hoffmann T128 upright in stock to try so that's another one to play. There is also a used L168 in the bay area from 2003 or so to try. Some have mentioned that Estonias were re-designed after that year so those may not "as good." All I can do is try them.

More to come.
Just curious why you missed Blüthner Model A off your big list? current PB MSP is $50,136.
Ian


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What kept you from lusting after the Steingraeber? I've tried just a few, and had somewhsat mixed reactions-- it would be interesting to hear yours.

Totally agree about Grotrian uprights. Prominent tenor (and more than adequate bass) even on the next smaller two models. Really sings in its own way.

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I’d throw Steinway in there as a recommendation as well, if you can find one in good shape that’s not too old. They tend to be really powerful pianos, and even the uprights have a big sound.

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Originally Posted by navindra
This is worrying to me. The Estonia Model 168 that I tried recently blew me away, even in comparison to bigger and more expensive pianos. I had the same gorgeous/wonderful reaction that you had to the tone of the 210.

Was it a new one that you tried? Which dealer was it? Is such variability in the Estonias to be expected?

This 168 was a new one but from 2019 or so (so I was told) - I will say that the salesman did let on that he felt this example was somewhat uncharacteristic of other Estonias - so there's that. For me personally, I couldn't say since this was my first time playing any Estonias. Loved the 210 though!

Originally Posted by navindra
Have you had a chance to audition one of the Lothar Thomma Ritmüllers?

Ritmullers were there, but no, I didn't try these. When I discussed what I was looking for (budget, sound, etc.) Ritmuller did not come up in the "you should try this" conversation. Even if I had, I played so many that I ended up with serious piano demo exhaustion that I probably couldn't have been as objective as I would like (felt the same way about Schulze-Pollmann - too fatigued so as not able to make a clear evaluation). I do plan on going back so will try them then.


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Originally Posted by Maestro Lennie
What kept you from lusting after the Steingraeber? I've tried just a few, and had somewhsat mixed reactions-- it would be interesting to hear yours.

Totally agree about Grotrian uprights. Prominent tenor (and more than adequate bass) even on the next smaller two models. Really sings in its own way.

I guess it's like being a car showroom with Mercedes, BMWs, etc. They are all great in their own way, but in the end, we still just prefer one over the other. I liked Steingraeber, just liked the Grotrian more. Even still, at the prices for both, I didn't think they were orders-of-magnitude better than the Yamaha YUS5. Said more directly, I preferred the C. Bechstein A124 over all (incl. the YUS5). I can't wait to play the Bechstein again to see how I feel about it the second time around.


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A well-tuned Bechstein does have some amazing charms. 😍

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Originally Posted by Maestro Lennie
A well-tuned Bechstein does have some amazing charms. 😍

Do all well-tuned pianos have amazing charms, or, at least, some charms? I'm getting my YUS5 tuned today. Woohoo.

My tuner loves my pano so much that he spends hours tuning it because he says he keeps getting more out of it the more he works with it. He is happy to be tuning a new piano after struggling with so many broken down pianos.

Once, he was tuning while I was on a work video call and someone on my call said, what is that noise? One of my genius coworkers replied, it's a study in microtonality!

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There are, indeed, many things to like out there. But Bechstein is close to the top of my list when it comes to pianos.

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Originally Posted by Jadam
Originally Posted by Maestro Lennie
What kept you from lusting after the Steingraeber? I've tried just a few, and had somewhsat mixed reactions-- it would be interesting to hear yours.

Totally agree about Grotrian uprights. Prominent tenor (and more than adequate bass) even on the next smaller two models. Really sings in its own way.

I guess it's like being a car showroom with Mercedes, BMWs, etc. They are all great in their own way, but in the end, we still just prefer one over the other. I liked Steingraeber, just liked the Grotrian more. Even still, at the prices for both, I didn't think they were orders-of-magnitude better than the Yamaha YUS5. Said more directly, I preferred the C. Bechstein A124 over all (incl. the YUS5). I can't wait to play the Bechstein again to see how I feel about it the second time around.

Congrats on finding a piano that is right for You! You are right: there are many great brands snd models out there, and many of us here have strongly held opinions— generally about how what we own is exceedingly wonderful. What’s important is to reduce the perspective to what feels right to you!

Please post pics when it is drlivered 😊


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Originally Posted by dogperson
Please post pics when it is drlivered 😊

Wow, talk about “leading the witness.” wink

Some more rocks to turn over before I call it quits on the search, but so far, my preference is a shorter grand, if that can be worked out for the room (the aesthetics are the biggest factor - not “overwhelming the room”), but if an upright is the direction, then, yes, you may be right about the Bechstein!


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I have C. Bechstein A124 since November 2021 and I really love it. I tried many pianos before but this one was just outstanding.

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Originally Posted by Gaius
I have C. Bechstein A124 since November 2021 and I really love it. I tried many pianos before but this one was just outstanding.

I too have the A124 since April 2021. I have been around many pianos through the years and have never experienced a piano like this. Love it too!

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