2022 our 25th year online!

Welcome to the Piano World Piano Forums
Over 3 million posts about pianos, digital pianos, and all types of keyboard instruments.
Over 100,000 members from around the world.
Join the World's Largest Community of Piano Lovers (it's free)
It's Fun to Play the Piano ... Please Pass It On!

Shop our online store for music lovers
SEARCH
Piano Forums & Piano World
(ad)
Pianoteq
Steinway Spiro Layering
(ad)
Piano Life Saver - Dampp Chaser
Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver
(ad)
Wessell Nickel & Gross
PianoForAll
Who's Online Now
82 members (astrotoy, 80k, Adem, anamnesis, accordeur, bob@pei, 36251, AJB, Animisha, 15 invisible), 4,425 guests, and 297 robots.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
(ad)
Estonia Pianos
Estonia Pianos
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Hop To
Page 2 of 4 1 2 3 4
Joined: Mar 2022
Posts: 21
D
Full Member
OP Offline
Full Member
D
Joined: Mar 2022
Posts: 21
Appreciate all the comments. So I recently went on a piano search trip, and played multiple different brands - mostly in the 7-7'6" range - Steinway B, Steingraber 212, Shigeru SX, SK6 and SK7, Grotrian 225, Estonia 225, Blunther, Mason and Hamlin B. Didn't get to a Schimmel or August Forster as yet. Had a fantastic trip and met some great people. Haven't completely decided as yet but really like the Shigeru SK7, also the Steingraeber and Mason and Hamlin. If I purchase an SK7, I have the option of trading in at full value anytime to the Shigeru SX. The SX is just an unbelievable instrument, but I played it in a room larger than what mine will be. My attraction has really nothing to do with volume, but rather depth of the tonal palette and control. After all these years, I just now learned about key and action length and how a longer piano allows a longer action mechanism, which thereby gives the pianist more lever power and control. So the question isn't necessarily one of volume accommodation as it is whether or not the advantages could be realized in a home environment. I do appreciate the comments about selling capacity if it comes to that - and perhaps why the concerts can be had for cheaper when used. Also the moving issues, although 7'6" is pretty big instrument too. So for now I'm perfectly content with a 7'6" model, but looking to see opinions on whether the extra size/money/effort truly are worth it. The purchase of the 7'6' piano will not be influenced by the future potential of a concert - the purchase will hinge on the love of the initial piano itself.

Thanks again.


Life = God, Family, Friends, Music......everything else is just fluff.
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 18
M
Junior Member
Online Content
Junior Member
M
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 18
What’s a Shigeru SX?

Joined: May 2005
Posts: 12,195

Platinum Supporter until November 30 2022
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Online Content

Platinum Supporter until November 30 2022
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 12,195
Originally Posted by Michael
What’s a Shigeru SX?
A Yamaha SX.


Mason and Hamlin BB - 91640
Kawai K-500 Upright
Kawai CA-65 Digital
Korg SP-100 Stage Piano
YouTube channel - http://www.youtube.com/user/pianophilo
Joined: Aug 2019
Posts: 1,189
1000 Post Club Member
Offline
1000 Post Club Member
Joined: Aug 2019
Posts: 1,189
Originally Posted by Carey
Originally Posted by Michael
What’s a Shigeru SX?
A Yamaha SX.
I bet on Shigeru EX.
First, There is no Yamaha SX model, there is SxX series.
Second, I don't think there is shop in the US thar is dealer for both Yamaha and Kawai.

Last edited by VladK; 04/09/22 10:54 PM.

Wise men speak because they have something to say; Fools because they have to say something. (falsely attributed to Plato)
Vlad,
Adult beginner
Joined: Apr 2021
Posts: 2,031
2000 Post Club Member
Offline
2000 Post Club Member
Joined: Apr 2021
Posts: 2,031
Well Sonepica has a S7X I believe.Here is a recording of a smaller S5X.

Joined: Aug 2016
Posts: 6,880
G
6000 Post Club Member
Offline
6000 Post Club Member
G
Joined: Aug 2016
Posts: 6,880
Some people do in fact have concert grands in home settings. I sat in front of a good one a couple of weeks ago for the first time in my life, a Fazioli, and it was simply great. They can certainly be played quietly, too.

If you really want concert length keys, try out the Schimmel Konzert line, it's a major selling point for them. I think for any brand/model, at 7ft+, you're already getting the vast, vast majority of the benefit of the long pivot length.


Bosendorfer D214VC ENPro
Past: Yamaha P-85, P-105, CP50, Kawai MP11, Kawai NV-10
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 4,359
J
4000 Post Club Member
Offline
4000 Post Club Member
J
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 4,359
Originally Posted by VladK
Originally Posted by Carey
Originally Posted by Michael
What’s a Shigeru SX?
A Yamaha SX.
I bet on Shigeru EX.
First, There is no Yamaha SX model, there is SxX series.
Second, I don't think there is shop in the US thar is dealer for both Yamaha and Kawai.

Ellis Piano in Birmingham Alabama carries both Yamaha and Kawai, new.


YAMAHA Artist
Joined: Oct 2016
Posts: 30
Full Member
Offline
Full Member
Joined: Oct 2016
Posts: 30
Piano Solutions “Plus” in Indianapolis also is a dealer for new Kawai and Yamaha.


1995 Baldwin Model R / Past: Pearl River gp188a, Casio GP-300
Joined: Mar 2022
Posts: 21
D
Full Member
OP Offline
Full Member
D
Joined: Mar 2022
Posts: 21
Yeah sorry it's a Shigeru SK-EX. Their concert grand. Definitely going with a semi-concert initially, this is more for future potential. I probably will find out that I'm perfectly content with a semi-concert, but there's always that notion in the back of my head. Both the 7'6" SK7 and SK-EX are amazing instruments. But I would throw away the notion if the general feeling is that it's not worth the changeover and not worth thinking about it.


Life = God, Family, Friends, Music......everything else is just fluff.
Joined: Apr 2015
Posts: 851
S
500 Post Club Member
Offline
500 Post Club Member
S
Joined: Apr 2015
Posts: 851
Originally Posted by tre corda
Originally Posted by Withindale
[quote=tre corda][quote=pianoloverus][quote=Withindale]The Yamaha SX team said concert grands are for the audience but their pianos are for professional musicians. How many listeners do you plan to accommodate in your new music room?
If they meant that the one must be a professional to deserve or be worthy of an SX or that only pros can benefit from the design of the SX, I think that's a dumb comment and bad business.[/quote pianoloverus]

I think he said the Yamaha SX team said concert grands are for the audience.Perhaps they are voiced to fill a hall with hundreds of people in them. Also saying that the SX is for proffesional musicians may be just marketing.(meant to impress enthusiasts) Of course they are excellent pianos. Anyone of course can buy any concert grand if they wish, whatever their level of playing.[/quote Withindale]

Yamaha's engineers are not dumb. Their aim for the SX was to make a piano for professional pianists to enjoy in their studio or at home. They seem to have succeeded.[/quote ]

I never said they were dumb and I never implied it.I heard a youtube video from Cunningham Pianos that was posted a while back and yes its a wonderful instrument.I never meant that the SX is a CX piano with a different label or that it is not a great model and as far as I know Marketing is NOT ALL lies and exaggerations.The SX is also bought by non proffesionals, and as we know Sonepica has a SX piano.So are Kawai Shigeru's professional pianos bought by amateurs.

While Yamaha used identical hammers for the CFX and CX series, for the SX series they chose different (and I'm assuming softer) hammers. They were keen to point out that the SX series is ideal for "smaller" concert venues like salons. They apparently believe that the different hammers (and perhaps other changes in the piano) gave it a beautiful sound but also reduced it's volume. I think particularly in the treble some pianos have a more "piercing", "percussive" or "metallic" quality which is good for competing with a loud bass, and Yamaha wanted to remove these frequencies from the piano. I think this is what they mean when they say pianos like the CFX are for the audience - projection in a large hall is a key consideration but wasn't for the SX series. Having banged away at my S7X for an hour or two this evening with the lid closed, and now experiencing some ear fatigue, I'm not too concerned about any reduction of volume smile

Joined: May 2001
Posts: 32,695
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Online Content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 32,695
Originally Posted by Sonepica
Originally Posted by tre corda
Originally Posted by Withindale
[quote=tre corda][quote=pianoloverus][quote=Withindale]The Yamaha SX team said concert grands are for the audience but their pianos are for professional musicians. How many listeners do you plan to accommodate in your new music room?
If they meant that the one must be a professional to deserve or be worthy of an SX or that only pros can benefit from the design of the SX, I think that's a dumb comment and bad business.[/quote pianoloverus]

I think he said the Yamaha SX team said concert grands are for the audience.Perhaps they are voiced to fill a hall with hundreds of people in them. Also saying that the SX is for proffesional musicians may be just marketing.(meant to impress enthusiasts) Of course they are excellent pianos. Anyone of course can buy any concert grand if they wish, whatever their level of playing.[/quote Withindale]

Yamaha's engineers are not dumb. Their aim for the SX was to make a piano for professional pianists to enjoy in their studio or at home. They seem to have succeeded.[/quote ]

I never said they were dumb and I never implied it.I heard a youtube video from Cunningham Pianos that was posted a while back and yes its a wonderful instrument.I never meant that the SX is a CX piano with a different label or that it is not a great model and as far as I know Marketing is NOT ALL lies and exaggerations.The SX is also bought by non proffesionals, and as we know Sonepica has a SX piano.So are Kawai Shigeru's professional pianos bought by amateurs.

While Yamaha used identical hammers for the CFX and CX series, for the SX series they chose different (and I'm assuming softer) hammers. They were keen to point out that the SX series is ideal for "smaller" concert venues like salons. They apparently believe that the different hammers (and perhaps other changes in the piano) gave it a beautiful sound but also reduced it's volume. I think particularly in the treble some pianos have a more "piercing", "percussive" or "metallic" quality which is good for competing with a loud bass, and Yamaha wanted to remove these frequencies from the piano. I think this is what they mean when they say pianos like the CFX are for the audience - projection in a large hall is a key consideration but wasn't for the SX series. Having banged away at my S7X for an hour or two this evening with the lid closed, and now experiencing some ear fatigue, I'm not too concerned about any reduction of volume smile
Plenty of pianists have all the different Yamaha models including non concert grand size CF and CX series for their home. So they are also suitable for the home. That's why the comments someone quoted from Yamaha technicians earlier in the this thread were silly since they implied that before the SX the other models weren't suitable for the home.

Joined: May 2015
Posts: 10,947
Gold Subscriber
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Offline
Gold Subscriber
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Joined: May 2015
Posts: 10,947
Originally Posted by pianoloverus
Originally Posted by Sonepica
Originally Posted by tre corda
Originally Posted by Withindale
[quote=tre corda][quote=pianoloverus][quote=Withindale]The Yamaha SX team said concert grands are for the audience but their pianos are for professional musicians. How many listeners do you plan to accommodate in your new music room?
If they meant that the one must be a professional to deserve or be worthy of an SX or that only pros can benefit from the design of the SX, I think that's a dumb comment and bad business.[/quote pianoloverus]

I think he said the Yamaha SX team said concert grands are for the audience.Perhaps they are voiced to fill a hall with hundreds of people in them. Also saying that the SX is for proffesional musicians may be just marketing.(meant to impress enthusiasts) Of course they are excellent pianos. Anyone of course can buy any concert grand if they wish, whatever their level of playing.[/quote Withindale]

Yamaha's engineers are not dumb. Their aim for the SX was to make a piano for professional pianists to enjoy in their studio or at home. They seem to have succeeded.[/quote ]

I never said they were dumb and I never implied it.I heard a youtube video from Cunningham Pianos that was posted a while back and yes its a wonderful instrument.I never meant that the SX is a CX piano with a different label or that it is not a great model and as far as I know Marketing is NOT ALL lies and exaggerations.The SX is also bought by non proffesionals, and as we know Sonepica has a SX piano.So are Kawai Shigeru's professional pianos bought by amateurs.

While Yamaha used identical hammers for the CFX and CX series, for the SX series they chose different (and I'm assuming softer) hammers. They were keen to point out that the SX series is ideal for "smaller" concert venues like salons. They apparently believe that the different hammers (and perhaps other changes in the piano) gave it a beautiful sound but also reduced it's volume. I think particularly in the treble some pianos have a more "piercing", "percussive" or "metallic" quality which is good for competing with a loud bass, and Yamaha wanted to remove these frequencies from the piano. I think this is what they mean when they say pianos like the CFX are for the audience - projection in a large hall is a key consideration but wasn't for the SX series. Having banged away at my S7X for an hour or two this evening with the lid closed, and now experiencing some ear fatigue, I'm not too concerned about any reduction of volume smile
Plenty of pianists have all the different Yamaha models including non concert grand size CF and CX series for their home. So they are also suitable for the home. That's why the comments someone quoted from Yamaha technicians earlier in the this thread were silly since they implied that before the SX the other models weren't suitable for the home.


And many pianists own other models of Yamahas and don’t consider the tone to be percussive, piercing or metallic. I don’t understand why company techs would feel the need to use disparaging adjectives regarding their companies other models. Seems quite unprofessional and inappropriate.


"Music, rich, full of feeling, not soulless, is like a crystal on which the sun falls and brings forth from it a whole rainbow" - F. Chopin
"I never dreamt with my own two hands I could touch the sky" - Sappho

It's ok to be a Work In Progress
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 7,401
7000 Post Club Member
Offline
7000 Post Club Member
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 7,401
Yep. The biggest change I noticed was from the C to the CX series, when testing back-to-back, in the same room.


Pianist, teacher, apprentice technician, internet addict.
Piano Review Editor - Acoustic and Digital Piano Buyer
Joined: Mar 2021
Posts: 919
S
500 Post Club Member
Offline
500 Post Club Member
S
Joined: Mar 2021
Posts: 919
It sounds like you’ve decided you’re going to buy something in the 7 foot range, for this purchase. So the questions about 9 foot pianos seem a little academic, and I’m definitely not qualified to offer a perspective on this. I’m sure folks with more experience will opine on this area.

What I will say is that in terms of the decision you need to make in the near future, I would really try to focus on figuring out which piano you like the most/best suits you, as opposed to thinking about a potential next piano. It seems like your top contenders are the SK7, the Steingraeber 212, and the M&H BB (I’m guessing you meant BB, as the BB is 7 feet and the B is 5’4”).

I will caveat this by saying that my experience is limited to a sample size of 1 of each, and playing each for pretty brief periods of time in the same showroom, but the Steingraeber 212 and M&H BB I played were instruments with very different personalities. I had a very clear preference for one over the other. There really seemed to be enough differences in the characters of the pianos that I would think a lot of people playing them would have a pretty distinct preference. I have not had the pleasure of playing an SK7, but from what I’ve heard and read, it seems like this piano would also be quite different from the other two, such that I would expect to have fairly strong feelings about it vs the others.

I guess I throw this out to say — think about what you liked more and less about each piano. Were there some pieces that you liked playing on one piano but not that much on others? Were there any magical moments? If so, what were they? Also, I know you travelled to see these pianos, and I’m not sure how feasible it will be to do so again. But I would recommend that you re-visit the pianos and see how you feel about them on a different day. Feelings change, and maybe now that you’ve got things narrowed down, you can hone in on what is most important to you.

Finally, if after all this, you are still torn between those three pianos, then I’d probably make the decision based on cost. I would also talk to the dealers about maintenance/servicing of the instruments and whether this may be… not trivial. Here is a thread from a couple years back that relates to servicing a Steingraeber:

http://forum.pianoworld.com/ubbthreads.php/topics/2719647/kudos-to-pianocraft.html

We are all different in terms of how demanding we are, but it’s at least worth thinking about how the piano will be set up and maintained. In the thread I linked, the owner ended up having a technician fly from the Washington DC area to St Louis to regulate and voice the piano. I know Kawai has a system for setting up the Shigerus, and from the posts I’ve seen here, owners seem to be very happy with this system.

Joined: Feb 2019
Posts: 3,248
S
3000 Post Club Member
Offline
3000 Post Club Member
S
Joined: Feb 2019
Posts: 3,248
Originally Posted by dbauer1080
Yeah sorry it's a Shigeru SK-EX. Their concert grand. Definitely going with a semi-concert initially, this is more for future potential. I probably will find out that I'm perfectly content with a semi-concert, but there's always that notion in the back of my head. Both the 7'6" SK7 and SK-EX are amazing instruments. But I would throw away the notion if the general feeling is that it's not worth the changeover and not worth thinking about it.

Putting aside considerations about the room size, aesthetics and acoustic properties, what others may feel about these pianos is their opinion. The only one experience that counts is your feeling. When you play these pianos at the store, what is your perception. Are you happy playing the SK7 and can live with it or do you find the SK-EX to be vastly superior (for you) and that is what you want and are ready to pay the price difference (the SK-EX is about twice the price so I assume the financial side is not an issue). When it comes to high end products, the marginal gain in "quality" (whatever it may mean) is paid with exponential increase in cost.

Also I am not sure if you are buying new or used. If new, you know that pianos depreciate very quickly in the first few years. So when you buy something in the 150k range, 20% depreciation is something like 30k .....

Once that decision is clear in your head, comes the room factor and other side considerations.


Blüthner model 6
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 1,091
S
1000 Post Club Member
Offline
1000 Post Club Member
S
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 1,091
I have several customers with concert grands in small music rooms, one with a Steinway D and a B. Go for it.

Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 3,827
AJB Online Blank
3000 Post Club Member
Online Blank
3000 Post Club Member
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 3,827
Pianos are not alike. In my experience for example a 7' 6" Steingraeber or Phoenix is capable of being louder than a S&S D. I have had a Steinway D at home and my current 212 is easily capable of being just as loud. Both have immense control. Both can be played as quietly as you like - this is part of the point of a concert quality piano: lots of control.

Had a concert Fazioli for a while in a studio that was about 15ft by 25ft (vaulted ceiling) and it was totally fine.

IMO large part of how a piano sounds is directly related to the player. I pretty much agree with Vibrato here. I've had three concert sized grands domestically, including long term loan of a Hamburg D, and I've had a 6" 3" Boston and my current 212.

In my home or home studios, I have never felt with a semi-concert sized piano that I need either more volume or more control.

Choose an excellent piano. Don't fret too much about length.


C212 used for me to delude myself I will one day be a good player, and to do a bit of teaching.
Joined: Feb 2019
Posts: 169
A
Silver Supporter until Feb 1 2020
Full Member
Online Content
Silver Supporter until Feb 1 2020
Full Member
A
Joined: Feb 2019
Posts: 169
Our Boesendorfer 225 is 7'4" in length and with 92 keys, a few inches wider than a normal piano. It was called a half concert - Halbkonzert when we bought it. And we have seen many in smaller concert halls, those which hold an audience of 500 people. A concert artist can certainly fill our home with more volume than we would want - we had 40 guests hear Jon Nakamatsu play the Rach 2 in our living - dining room (with the orchestra part played on our smaller Yamaha S-400E). Our ceilings are sloped and rise to more than 25 feet, so lots of volumetric space in the room. I didn't have a db meter, but his crescendos were near the capacity of my hearing.


Boesendorfer 225 (1985)
Yamaha S400E (predecessor to CF4) Disklavier (1992)
Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 4,559
K
4000 Post Club Member
Offline
4000 Post Club Member
K
Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 4,559
It really depends on the piano, how it is set up, how it is maintained, and of course, how it is used. There are concert grands that work great in a concert hall but not so much in a home environment. There are concert grands that work very nicely in a home environment but in a concert setting, their limitations are exposed. There are concert grands that work nicely in a home but still are not as good as smaller pianos in that same environment, even of the same maker.

Concert grands definitely feel and respond differently than non concert grands and there is a learning curve for playing some repertoire on a concert grand when one is not familiar with concert grands. The tone develops differently on a concert grand than on a smaller piano and this can confuse the timing and control of the pianist who is not used to concert grands.

IMO, most concert grands are not so successful even among top makers with very good smaller pianos. Concert grands of the same maker are also the most inconsistent.

Smaller pianos are usually better balanced across registers than concert grands and smaller pianos usually have better treble than concert grands.

So, the right concert grand with the right prep and follow up service can be wonderful in a home situation, but there are so many variables it certainly wont automatically be better than a smaller piano in the same environment by the same maker or another maker.

Finally, less technicians are familiar with working on concert grands, especially for home use, just because they don't come across them very often.


Keith D Kerman
PianoCraft
Rebuilding & Sales - vintage and used Steinway, Mason & Hamlin
New Steingraeber, Estonia, Baldwin
www.pianocraft.net
check out www.sitkadoc.com/ and www.vimeo.com/203188875
www.youtube.com/user/pianocraftchannel

keith@pianocraft.net 888-840-5460
Joined: Apr 2015
Posts: 851
S
500 Post Club Member
Offline
500 Post Club Member
S
Joined: Apr 2015
Posts: 851
Originally Posted by Keith D Kerman
and smaller pianos usually have better treble than concert grands.

This wasn't my experience comparing the CFX with the S7X at the Yamaha premium piano centre in Melbourne. The CFX had a more "substantial" tone from the treble, while the S7X was weaker/thinner.

Page 2 of 4 1 2 3 4

Moderated by  Ken Knapp, Piano World 

Link Copied to Clipboard
(ad)
Best of Piano Buyer
Piano Buyer - Read the Articles, Explore the website
(ad)
PianoDisc

PianoDisc
(ad)
Faust Harrison Pianos
Faust Harrison 100+ Steinway pianos
(ad)
Mason & Hamlin Pianos
New Topics - Multiple Forums
Kawai Novus 10S New owner
by Ron A - 07/05/22 11:33 AM
Kurzweil k2700
by Ivan504 - 07/05/22 11:30 AM
Alan Belkin on musical salience - an aesthetic concept
by indigo_dave - 07/05/22 11:18 AM
Help me change how I think about memorizing
by ShiroKuro - 07/05/22 11:05 AM
Download Sheet Music
Virtual Sheet Music - Classical Sheet Music Downloads
What's Hot!!
FREE June Newsletter is Here!
--------------------
Forums RULES, Terms of Service & HELP
(updated 06/06/2022)
-------------------
Music Store Going Out of Business Sale!
---------------------
Mr. PianoWorld's Original Composition
---------------------
Sell Your Piano on our world famous Piano Forums!
---------------------
Posting Pictures on the Forums
-------------------
ADVERTISE on Piano World
Forum Statistics
Forums43
Topics213,814
Posts3,205,545
Members105,725
Most Online15,252
Mar 21st, 2010
Please Support Our Advertisers

Faust Harrison 100+ Steinways

Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver

 Best of Piano Buyer

PianoTeq Bechstein
Visit our online store for gifts for music lovers

Virtual Sheet Music - Classical Sheet Music Downloads



 
Help keep the forums up and running with a donation, any amount is appreciated!
Or by becoming a Subscribing member! Thank-you.
Donate   Subscribe
 
Our Piano Related Classified Ads
| Dealers | Tuners | Lessons | Movers | Restorations | Pianos For Sale | Sell Your Piano |

Advertise on Piano World
| Subscribe | Piano World | PianoSupplies.com | Advertise on Piano World |
| |Contact | Privacy | Legal | About Us | Site Map | Free Newsletter | MapleStreetMusicShop.com - Our store in Cornish Maine


© copyright 1997 - 2022 Piano World ® all rights reserved
No part of this site may be reproduced without prior written permission
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.5