2022 our 25th year online!

Welcome to the Piano World Piano Forums
Over 3 million posts about pianos, digital pianos, and all types of keyboard instruments.
Over 100,000 members from around the world.
Join the World's Largest Community of Piano Lovers (it's free)
It's Fun to Play the Piano ... Please Pass It On!

Shop our online store for music lovers
SEARCH
Piano Forums & Piano World
(ad)
Pianoteq
Steinway Spiro Layering
(ad)
Piano Life Saver - Dampp Chaser
Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver
(ad)
Wessell Nickel & Gross
PianoForAll
Who's Online Now
42 members (CharlesXX, Christopher90, BravoRomeo, AndrewJCW, Bett, Chris Pringle, Alex Hutor, CentauriB, 7 invisible), 400 guests, and 315 robots.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
(ad)
Estonia Pianos
Estonia Pianos
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Hop To
Page 1 of 11 1 2 3 10 11
Joined: Mar 2022
Posts: 54
R
Full Member
OP Offline
Full Member
R
Joined: Mar 2022
Posts: 54
Hello all, new member here. I just joined to get some advice because you all seem so lovely and knowledgeable. I'm in Malaysia (a hot, humid country in Southeast Asia) and am looking to buy my first grand. I've only ever had 2 different Petrof uprights my whole life and am hardly an expert pianist (I can only play from sheet music and not extemporaneously!), but I've finally decided to take the plunge to acquire that blissful sound which thus far I've only been able to dream about.

I have a budget of about 47,500 US Dollars (converted from the local currency) and after trying a bunch of different pianos from various dealerships, I've narrowed my choices down to a Petrof Breeze (173 cm), a Boston 178 or 193 (the 193 is around the same price as the Petrof), and a Yamaha C3X. All are new; I wouldn't mind used options but no particularly nice offers have come my way. I don't have an expert ear so I don't hear a vastly different sound between any of the choices. The Yamaha sound is perhaps my least favorite because it sounds a bit sterile in comparison to the other two brands. It does have the lightest touch, though; the Petrof has the heaviest and the Boston is somewhere in between.

The Petrof is attractive because I do love continuity and it is the only one that is handmade (I'm assuming the others aren't). However, my living room is on the larger side with high ceilings and cold, hard flooring and walls (no wood), so I'm worried that the Petrof would be too small to really resonate. The Boston 193 is much bigger than the Petrof and costs the same so the extra value is great, but I'm worried because this sub-brand doesn't seem to be particularly well-regarded.

A brand-new Shigeru Kawai SK3 was on the horizon for awhile and I was very excited about it because of a 50% discount and the prestige associated with this line, but after trying it out I was very disappointed by what I felt was a muffled, covered sound and a touch almost like that of a digital piano.

I would appreciate any help and advice on what to do next as I have zero experience in these matters. My thanks to this forum for being such a sounding board!

Joined: May 2001
Posts: 33,016
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 33,016
I wouldn't put much emphasis on claims of "handmade" much because no pianos are completely handmade and many steps in piano production can be done better by computer controlled machines. I also think, from what I've read only, that the newest Bostons are superior to the Bostons that were first introduced 30 years ago and that they have a good reputation. You can read the latest PB article about Bostons here:
https://www.pianobuyer.com/brand/boston/
Is the Boston under consideration one of the PE 11 models mentioned in the article?

The Yamaha seems not in the running unless you can get the dealer to adjust the tone more to your liking which may be possible. It's possible they will try to do that without any commitment on your part. As far as deciding between the Petrof and longer Boston that is a decision you mostly have to make for yourself although some would say the extra 10" on the Boston should be a major consideration.

Perhaps trying out the Boston 193 and Petrof Breeze again will help you decide.

Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 7,949
7000 Post Club Member
Offline
7000 Post Club Member
Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 7,949
I have played a new Boston in that size and a few smaller models as well, and I really liked them.

I would recommend the Yamaha just because of how well they hold their tuning, especially for your climate concerns (I owned a Yamaha upright when I lived in Japan and it was a great instrument and very reliable). BUT don't get the Yamaha if you don't like its sound or touch. I have read people describe the Yamaha sound as generic, so your "sterile" is probably similar to that.... the benefit of that is perhaps it makes it versatile, but again, if you don't like it, then don't consider it.

Just from my experience test-playing Bostons, I suspect it sounded much warmed and maybe more complex than the Yamaha.


Started piano June 1999.
Proud owner of a Yamaha C2

[Linked Image]
[Linked Image]
[Linked Image]
Joined: Mar 2022
Posts: 54
R
Full Member
OP Offline
Full Member
R
Joined: Mar 2022
Posts: 54
Originally Posted by pianoloverus
Is the Boston under consideration one of the PE 11 models mentioned in the article?

Yep, both the models being sold are the latest editions.

I confess to being guilty of thinking that European-made pianos are better or perhaps more unique-sounding. A saleslady I talked to concurred, stating that Japanese pianos have more of a generic sound (and her dealership sells Asian-made pianos!). Larry Fine's ranking of Petrof as Performance Grade and the other two brands as Consumer Grade also has had an influence on me, and I know that I shouldn't be so swayed by this kind of talk!

The Boston 193 does have an allure because it is so much bigger than the Petrof 173 - does a difference of 20 cm make a big impact on the sound and tonal quality of the piano? What makes me apprehensive about the Boston is reading things like how it is no better than an equivalent Kawai (I'm not too inclined towards this brand after trying out the SK3) and various other asides about buying one merely to get a 'sub-Steinway'.

Joined: Mar 2022
Posts: 54
R
Full Member
OP Offline
Full Member
R
Joined: Mar 2022
Posts: 54
Originally Posted by ShiroKuro
Just from my experience test-playing Bostons, I suspect it sounded much warmed and maybe more complex than the Yamaha.

That was my experience, too. The Yamaha had a sweet, tinkly sound; the Boston came across as more full-bodied with a heavier touch.

I had a favorable impression of the CX7 but that model is a little over my budget.

I was a bit shocked that a new SK3 had such a big drop in price (at least 50% off) considering how prestigious this line seems to be. The smarminess and possible unscrupulousness of the dealer didn't help as well.

Joined: Feb 2021
Posts: 138
Full Member
Offline
Full Member
Joined: Feb 2021
Posts: 138
I can't really comment on the Petrof/Boston as I've never played either. I have played quite a few Yamahas (Cx/Sx/CF series) and I wouldn't say that the German makes are more unique sounding. In fact I would argue that the difference between the Cx vs the Sx (when I played them side to side) was greater than the difference between a Cx and my Grotrian or comparing to Bluthner/Bechsteins I have tried. How much is the C3x? Here in the UK I have seen them around £23k sometimes lower. The S3x I have seen around £35k. Doing a quick convert shows that your budget is around £36k? Maybe worth seeing if you can find one to try. I don't know how many C3xs the dealer has to try either. It would be worth trying a few if you can to see if you can find one which has a sound you love.

Joined: May 2001
Posts: 33,016
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 33,016
Originally Posted by RiverwayInca35
Larry Fine's ranking of Petrof as Performance Grade and the other two brands as Consumer Grade also has had an influence on me, and I know that I shouldn't be so swayed by this kind of talk!
Remember that Fine states his "rankings" are now based primarily on price although he does state that there is general relationship between price and quality. For a given size, Petrof is a more expensive piano. When shopping for a piano, there is often a choice between a shorter but perhaps higher quality piano vs.a longer but possibly lesser quality piano. A choice only you can make.

Joined: May 2006
Posts: 7,489
7000 Post Club Member
Offline
7000 Post Club Member
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 7,489
You are being swayed by hype and market perception. You should instead be swayed by touch and tone, price and appearance.


Pianist, teacher, apprentice technician, internet addict.
Piano Review Editor - Acoustic and Digital Piano Buyer
Joined: Mar 2022
Posts: 54
R
Full Member
OP Offline
Full Member
R
Joined: Mar 2022
Posts: 54
Originally Posted by terminaldegree
You are being swayed by hype and market perception. You should instead be swayed by touch and tone, price and appearance.

Yes, I'm trying not to be.

As I said, I don't have an expert ear so when I play the Boston and the Petrof, for example, I don't hear much of a difference in the sound. With the Yamahas, the difference is more stark.

For me, the appearance matters very little. I'm buying a grand piano primarily for the sound and not for decorative purposes. If between any of the choices I've mentioned, I could hear that one has a sound which I vastly prefer, I wouldn't hesitate to get it even if the brand is less prestigious. The problem for me is that the differences don't jump out very readily.

Joined: Mar 2022
Posts: 54
R
Full Member
OP Offline
Full Member
R
Joined: Mar 2022
Posts: 54
Originally Posted by Aritempor
I can't really comment on the Petrof/Boston as I've never played either. I have played quite a few Yamahas (Cx/Sx/CF series) and I wouldn't say that the German makes are more unique sounding. In fact I would argue that the difference between the Cx vs the Sx (when I played them side to side) was greater than the difference between a Cx and my Grotrian or comparing to Bluthner/Bechsteins I have tried. How much is the C3x? Here in the UK I have seen them around £23k sometimes lower. The S3x I have seen around £35k. Doing a quick convert shows that your budget is around £36k? Maybe worth seeing if you can find one to try. I don't know how many C3xs the dealer has to try either. It would be worth trying a few if you can to see if you can find one which has a sound you love.

I wish I was in the UK then if the C3X is going for so little over there. Over here, the minimum is around £30k or more.

Funny thing is that there was a Bechstein I tried that didn't particularly impress me. Later on, I found out that it is such a prestigious brand; even if it wasn't over my budget, I wouldn't get it because the sound and feel didn't suit me.

Also tried some Steinways where the Boston is being sold, and with those even I could hear and feel the difference. I didn't spend too long on them, however - why prolong the agony!

Joined: Mar 2022
Posts: 54
R
Full Member
OP Offline
Full Member
R
Joined: Mar 2022
Posts: 54
Hi again all. Dissatisfied with the limited options available here, I reached out to dealers in neighboring countries and was pleased to find that they offer shipping to Malaysia. A much wider selection of brands is available in countries like Thailand and Singapore. The problem is that with COVID, it would be impossible for me to try out all (if any) of the pianos I've zoned in on that fit my now heightened price range:

Seiler SE-186
Estonia L190
Sauter "Delta" 185/Sauter "Omega" 220
Petrof "Storm" P194/Petrof "Pasat" P210

To anyone who's played any of these models, I'd appreciate any advice and recommendations. Out of all the grands I've tried in this newfound search of mine, I most liked the touch and feel of the Hamburg Steinways. As for the sound, I'd most like to avoid a sort of muffled, covered sound that I found most glaringly apparent in the Shigeru Kawai SK3 that I tried. I'd like a ringing, resonant sound; one that has purity and clarity and with a good sustain.

Last edited by RiverwayInca35; 04/05/22 12:26 PM.
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 7,489
7000 Post Club Member
Offline
7000 Post Club Member
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 7,489
Of that list, I really liked the couple of Sauter Omegas I've played, but I've only seen a couple. Have played a Petrof Storm but not a Pasat, and would be very curious to try the 210cm one. I have played many more pianos in the 205cm-234cm size range that I'd be happier with as my "forever" piano than then stuff in the 185-194cm size range, but there are individual examples that have been exceptions to that. Granted, I get to play concert grands on a weekly basis at work...


Pianist, teacher, apprentice technician, internet addict.
Piano Review Editor - Acoustic and Digital Piano Buyer
Joined: Apr 2021
Posts: 2,312
2000 Post Club Member
Online Content
2000 Post Club Member
Joined: Apr 2021
Posts: 2,312
Out of those I would probably take these-

Estonia (a good price for an excellent piano)
Sauter Delta or the Omega
Seiler SE
Shigeru or the Yamaha CX (you mentioned)
Boston

I am surprised by your repulsion at the Kawai Shigeru.Perhaps the ones you tried needed to be prepped? By the way they have been making pianos for a 100 years now.Do you think they would have lasted making Boston pianos for Steinway, if they did not know how to make successful pianos? The same goes for Yamaha.The Japanese pianos are excellent well made instruments.It is your choice of course and it's important you buy the piano you like and suits you.(even if it is the Petrof).
I hope you find your perfect piano.

Joined: Mar 2022
Posts: 54
R
Full Member
OP Offline
Full Member
R
Joined: Mar 2022
Posts: 54
Originally Posted by tre corda
Out of those I would probably take these-

Estonia (a good price for an excellent piano)
Sauter Delta or the Omega
Seiler SE
Shigeru or the Yamaha CX (you mentioned)
Boston

I am surprised by your repulsion at the Kawai Shigeru.Perhaps the ones you tried needed to be prepped? By the way they have been making pianos for a 100 years now.Do you think they would have lasted making Boston pianos for Steinway, if they did not know how to make successful pianos? The same goes for Yamaha.The Japanese pianos are excellent well made instruments.It is your choice of course and it's important you buy the piano you like and suits you.(even if it is the Petrof).
I hope you find your perfect piano.

Well, perhaps repulsion is too strong a word. The SK3 would've been perfect in terms of price, size and availability so I wanted very much for it to be THE one, but the feel and sound just didn't appeal to me. In fact, it was probably my least favorite out of all the pianos I tried. I suppose it could've used more prep, but the dealer didn't mention that anything was amiss.

I don't mean to cast aspersions about these brands - perhaps it's just that they'll appeal to people with different tastes. They have lasted for so long and are so highly regarded so they must be doing something right. All the Yamahas I tried were fine; it is just that none of them blew me away. The Yamaha dealers here don't even carry anything higher than the CX line, so that makes local options even more limited. Luckily I found dealers in nearby countries that carry all these brands that are simply unheard of in Malaysia; at least now the choices on offer are wider!

Joined: Apr 2021
Posts: 2,312
2000 Post Club Member
Online Content
2000 Post Club Member
Joined: Apr 2021
Posts: 2,312
RiverwayInca35
Of course I understand revulsion is too strong a word (or repulsion) I too at times develop a dislike for a brand especially if I have been "put off" by a piano in some m way. However then you find beautifully tuned one and that makes one think again.I do not think that you need to be worried about the Boston being made by Kawai.From what I have read the piano has totally different specifications to a Kawai.
They do not even sound the same.I do prefer the Kawai to the Boston, still that is just taste.Regarding the new Petrofs I do not know much about them at all.


My piano's voice is my voice to God and the great unknown universe, and to those I love.In other words a hymn.That is all, but that is enough.Life goes on, despite pain and fear.Music is beautiful,life is beautiful.


Joined: Jan 2015
Posts: 1,506
T
1000 Post Club Member
Offline
1000 Post Club Member
T
Joined: Jan 2015
Posts: 1,506
I've played Shigeru Kawais that I found muffled but others that weren't. I don't know if it was due to each one being individually voiced to suit different tastes or whether some of them had just been on the floor for longer and had hammers that had been played in. Recently I played a nice SK-2, I actually liked it significantly more than the SK-6 in the store. I think the person who bought that SK-2 had the same feeling and posted about it here. I wouldn't give up on all Shigeru Kawais based on your experience, you might have to treat them all as individual pianos to try out.

To my memory, the Sauters had a controllable touch but the sound profile was unique. It wasn't to my taste but other people love theirs. And I know Estonia has a big fan base but I've only played one that I really liked, a concert grand.

I played a Seiler a while back, not a European made one, but one of their Asian made ones, and I really liked the tone. I think I played another recently but it was hideous to look at (weird mix of colors and satin silver hardware if I recall). It may have been a European one. They both had a sweet and clear sound.


2001 Petrof 125 -> 2002 Petrof IV -> 1999 Bösendorfer 225
Joined: Apr 2021
Posts: 2,312
2000 Post Club Member
Online Content
2000 Post Club Member
Joined: Apr 2021
Posts: 2,312
Yes ED Seiler can be very nice, so can the othe model not totally German made.I have never seen European Seiler grand but have played a new SE and older Seiler uprights.


My piano's voice is my voice to God and the great unknown universe, and to those I love.In other words a hymn.That is all, but that is enough.Life goes on, despite pain and fear.Music is beautiful,life is beautiful.


Joined: Feb 2021
Posts: 138
Full Member
Offline
Full Member
Joined: Feb 2021
Posts: 138
Originally Posted by RiverwayInca35
Hi again all. Dissatisfied with the limited options available here, I reached out to dealers in neighboring countries and was pleased to find that they offer shipping to Malaysia. A much wider selection of brands is available in countries like Thailand and Singapore. The problem is that with COVID, it would be impossible for me to try out all (if any) of the pianos I've zoned in on that fit my now heightened price range:

Seiler SE-186
Estonia L190
Sauter "Delta" 185/Sauter "Omega" 220
Petrof "Storm" P194/Petrof "Pasat" P210

To anyone who's played any of these models, I'd appreciate any advice and recommendations. Out of all the grands I've tried in this newfound search of mine, I most liked the touch and feel of the Hamburg Steinways. As for the sound, I'd most like to avoid a sort of muffled, covered sound that I found most glaringly apparent in the Shigeru Kawai SK3 that I tried. I'd like a ringing, resonant sound; one that has purity and clarity and with a good sustain.

That's quite a jump in budget smile. I'll chip in on the Sauter (at least the Delta anyway) which I have had the pleasure to try at Coach House in London. Bear in mind it's a sample size of one. To me anyway it was on the bright side. A pure sound which I would describe as crystal like clarity in the treble and upper tenor. The lower tenor was richer and the bass as good as I've heard for pianos around 6 feet. I do prefer my pianos more mellow so it didn't grab me unlike the Bosies that I tried that same afternoon. It's always hard to judge based on playing one piano but Sauters (in my head) are similar to the brighter Yamaha sound at least in the treble. I'm sure they can be mellowed but I'd rather start with something I loved then try and fix something that wasn't quite right.

Joined: Nov 2014
Posts: 85
V
Full Member
Offline
Full Member
V
Joined: Nov 2014
Posts: 85
Oh my

A SK-3 on discount !

Please please I beg you to reconsider.

As long as the sound board is satisfactory, Grag it at 50%

Then call the factory in Japan. Or call first …

If it’s new, their technicians to come to you in Malaysia as a free service

They can perform magic

Of course do your diligence and check serial first. Amongst others usual suspects.

Rarely encounters a below average S Kawai

If you don’t want it may I be rude and ask for the sellers details. I will buy it.

Trust an old fool. This is something you don’t want to miss

A factory prepared s Kawai IN THE RIGHT HANDS. Can match anything in a double blind no decal comparison.

Last edited by Vibrato; 04/07/22 05:03 AM.
Joined: Nov 2014
Posts: 85
V
Full Member
Offline
Full Member
V
Joined: Nov 2014
Posts: 85
Apologies for poor grammar and typo error.

I type in Larghetto (second movement ) mode and got locked out !

Page 1 of 11 1 2 3 10 11

Moderated by  Ken Knapp, Piano World 

Link Copied to Clipboard
(ad)
Best of Piano Buyer
Piano Buyer - Read the Articles, Explore the website
(ad)
PianoDisc

PianoDisc
(ad)
Faust Harrison Pianos
Faust Harrison 100+ Steinway pianos
(ad)
Mason & Hamlin Pianos
New Topics - Multiple Forums
On-Stage KB9503B Adjustable Height Piano Bench
by TheophilusCarter - 08/12/22 10:15 PM
Cant i identify a piano, need help
by Orisolo - 08/12/22 09:34 PM
1983 Yamaha C7 Concert Grand Piano
by Joshua Lauriston - 08/12/22 05:39 PM
The Fugue, a Form or a Technique ?
by Sidokar - 08/12/22 06:34 AM
Download Sheet Music
Virtual Sheet Music - Classical Sheet Music Downloads
What's Hot!!
FREE June Newsletter is Here!
--------------------
Forums RULES, Terms of Service & HELP
(updated 06/06/2022)
-------------------
Music Store Going Out of Business Sale!
---------------------
Mr. PianoWorld's Original Composition
---------------------
Sell Your Piano on our world famous Piano Forums!
---------------------
Posting Pictures on the Forums
-------------------
ADVERTISE on Piano World
Forum Statistics
Forums43
Topics214,369
Posts3,215,890
Members106,074
Most Online15,252
Mar 21st, 2010
Please Support Our Advertisers

Faust Harrison 100+ Steinways

Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver

 Best of Piano Buyer

PianoTeq Bechstein
Visit our online store for gifts for music lovers

Virtual Sheet Music - Classical Sheet Music Downloads



 
Help keep the forums up and running with a donation, any amount is appreciated!
Or by becoming a Subscribing member! Thank-you.
Donate   Subscribe
 
Our Piano Related Classified Ads
| Dealers | Tuners | Lessons | Movers | Restorations | Pianos For Sale | Sell Your Piano |

Advertise on Piano World
| Subscribe | Piano World | PianoSupplies.com | Advertise on Piano World |
| |Contact | Privacy | Legal | About Us | Site Map | Free Newsletter | MapleStreetMusicShop.com - Our store in Cornish Maine


© copyright 1997 - 2022 Piano World ® all rights reserved
No part of this site may be reproduced without prior written permission
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.5