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Joined: May 2003
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Originally Posted by brdwyguy
my tech took out one of the whippens currently in my piano and I compared the spring action to a new Renner Sample and a NY Steinway whippen ----- I could feel the difference, the old whippen spring action seemed noticibly sluggish & slower.

Well, springs are adjustable. Did the old whippens lift the hammer from check as fast as the new ones?

Last edited by Ed Foote; 03/30/22 09:40 PM.
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I have wood action pianos that I rebuilt 20-40 years ago that I still service. I pinned them very carefully and quite firm. Some of these pianos get played many hours a week. I have not had to re-pin a single part in any of them. A few got slightly too tight in high humidity, but with a little heat gun action and Protec lube they fell into perfect function.

Contrast that experience to 10 year old Steinway or Renner parts not pinned by me in pianos played several hours a week where I see center pins working out of the parts and sloppy fit in the felt. When I get a new customer with a Renner action I always remove the action and find a few pins working their way out in most of the actions.


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Thanks Ed. It is good to know this is likely not something I have to revisit any time soon. Interestingly with the pins that needed redone on my grand a great many were too loose which is why my tech called it a warranty job.

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Originally Posted by Ed McMorrow, RPT
I have wood action pianos that I rebuilt 20-40 years ago that I still service. I pinned them very carefully and quite firm. Some of these pianos get played many hours a week. I have not had to re-pin a single part in any of them. A few got slightly too tight in high humidity, but with a little heat gun action and Protec lube they fell into perfect function.

Ed,

I'd be interested in how you achieve stable pinning that is firm, yet not too badly susceptible to humidity changes. Specifically, I am wondering about the degree of burnishing (as opposed to filing) that you do, i.e. compaction vs. material removal.

In my limited experience, I found that different combinations of filing and burnishing can lead to the same initial fit, but in the long term, they behave very differently.
Too much filing and too little burnishing will loosen up over time, and what's gone from the bushing, is gone.
Therefore, I tend to err on the side of caution and remove only minimal material with a file/awl and rather burnish a bit more.
However, I found that relying only on burnishing may simply leave too much material in the bushing and swell too tight in higher humidity.
It also seems to me that not all bushings are created equal. Some take a burnishing readily, others tend to spring back more.

I suppose in the end it comes down to experience programmed into muscle memory - but I was wondering whether you have any rules of thumb, guidelines?


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Ed Foote
we were looking and he was trying to explain a lot of things with the hammers
Originally Posted by Ed Foote
Originally Posted by brdwyguy
my tech took out one of the whippens currently in my piano and I compared the spring action to a new Renner Sample and a NY Steinway whippen ----- I could feel the difference, the old whippen spring action seemed noticibly sluggish & slower.

Well, springs are adjustable. Did the old whippens lift the hammer from check as fast as the new ones?

Ed from what I remember, and a lot of information was being explained but the hammers were sluggish compared to
the new Whippen that was tested.
and i felt all along the issue I was having in my upper bass notes was that the hammers repetition was not correct as just one of the issues.

brdwyguy

Last edited by brdwyguy; 03/31/22 07:15 AM.

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2021-Present: Steinway Model A (1912) "Amalia"

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Originally Posted by Aritempor
[quote=Ed McMorrow, RPT]I got a concert tech in to regulate the action 6 months after I got the piano and he showed me how the hammer pins were just so variable. It was a real eye opener watching him go through all 88 of these and get them even. Made me wonder how many rebuilt pianos there are out there with these issues.

His first name is Peter, right?

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Originally Posted by brdwyguy
my tech took out one of the whippens currently in my piano and I compared the spring action to a new Renner Sample and a NY Steinway whippen ----- I could feel the difference, the old whippen spring action seemed noticibly sluggish & slower.
Originally Posted by brdwyguy
my tech took out one of the whippens currently in my piano and I compared the spring action to a new Renner Sample and a NY Steinway whippen ----- I could feel the difference, the old whippen spring action seemed noticibly sluggish & slower.

Don’t be fooled by seemingly new, crisp springs—they should NOT make the hammer pop up. If that happens they are not adjusted properly. You’ll feel a jerk on the key and the hammers won’t catch.

If anything, most springs I see are too strong, which might mean there is too little hammer friction. I don’t do a lot of parts rebuilds, but from what I’ve seen, springs always come too hot from the factory.

Hopefully the OP knows that new wippens means a regulation cost as well?

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I have often mentioned that what wears out in wippens is the springs. Springs start out strong and weaken with use. Good springs will add a little snap to the action, making it faster and more reliable. I miss actions with spring tension adjustment screws. I guess they have been lost in the name of making the action "lighter," for wimpy pianists who want to play louder even though they do not want to exercise and get stronger fingers.


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Originally Posted by Scott Cole, RPT
Originally Posted by brdwyguy
my tech took out one of the whippens currently in my piano and I compared the spring action to a new Renner Sample and a NY Steinway whippen ----- I could feel the difference, the old whippen spring action seemed noticibly sluggish & slower.
Originally Posted by brdwyguy
my tech took out one of the whippens currently in my piano and I compared the spring action to a new Renner Sample and a NY Steinway whippen ----- I could feel the difference, the old whippen spring action seemed noticibly sluggish & slower.

Don’t be fooled by seemingly new, crisp springs—they should NOT make the hammer pop up. If that happens they are not adjusted properly. You’ll feel a jerk on the key and the hammers won’t catch.

If anything, most springs I see are too strong, which might mean there is too little hammer friction. I don’t do a lot of parts rebuilds, but from what I’ve seen, springs always come too hot from the factory.

Hopefully the OP knows that new wippens means a regulation cost as well?

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1961-1964: Lester or Emerson Upright
1969-1992: Westbrook Spinet
1991-2021: Schomacker Model A (1912) "Schoowie"
2021-Present: Steinway Model A (1912) "Amalia"

To Listen to my Music is to know me. To know me all you need do is listen to my music.
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Amalia was returned to me yesterday - I have to say there is more of a difference than I expected.
The entire piano also got a regulation and adjustment.
The entire piano now feels more even.
The Bass section is especially more solid and even tones.

The touch didnt change as much as I thought but the downweight went down by 3 o4 grams

anyway
here is the 1st piece on the adjusted Amalia with the new NYSteinway Whippens.

https://www.facebook.com/joseph.dimarco.315


1961-1964: Lester or Emerson Upright
1969-1992: Westbrook Spinet
1991-2021: Schomacker Model A (1912) "Schoowie"
2021-Present: Steinway Model A (1912) "Amalia"

To Listen to my Music is to know me. To know me all you need do is listen to my music.
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ALSO just as an FYI
these are practically new - NY Steinway whippens put into my Steinway A II
my tech said they slipped right in like they were made for the piano.
he did not need to do any adjusting to make them fit - he said he never had that happen before.

brdwyguy


1961-1964: Lester or Emerson Upright
1969-1992: Westbrook Spinet
1991-2021: Schomacker Model A (1912) "Schoowie"
2021-Present: Steinway Model A (1912) "Amalia"

To Listen to my Music is to know me. To know me all you need do is listen to my music.
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