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Originally Posted by pianoloverus
Originally Posted by Withindale
@PLV let's face it you and I got hold of the wrong end of this stick. Holly was bowled over by the sound of the piano. Most 110 year old pianos are questionable but not this one. Goes to show that Steinway knew how to build them in the Golden Age.
The piano hasn't even been inspected yet, right? No one knows its actual condition. If they did then so many posters(almost everyone) wouldn't have so strongly recommended a tech inspection. Posters mentioned that the dealer wasn't offering a warranty being a red flag. We have no idea if this piano is "questionable" or not.

Holly said the dampers are the only weakness mentioned in the inspection report. Dogperson says the OP said the piano is outstanding. We both missed that. All posters were spot on in recommending a tech inspection, viz the Piano Doctor's caveat about verdigris. Holly who has seen the piano is convinced the piano is a great buy but has accepted the need for an independent inspection which could nix the deal. Holly forgot to mention the inspection report in her first post, hence some of us jumped to the wrong conclusion and got out our red flags to talk her out of it. Actually our brief was to spell out the Pros and the Cons. Joseph did that very well confirming some century old Steinways do not need rebuilding.This seems to be one of those as Holly was able to execute every nuance she wanted and found the touch and tone of every note was to die for.


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Originally Posted by Withindale
of every note was to die for.

I wouldn't die for it though. I would just live for it.

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Originally Posted by Withindale
Originally Posted by pianoloverus
Originally Posted by Withindale
@PLV let's face it you and I got hold of the wrong end of this stick. Holly was bowled over by the sound of the piano. Most 110 year old pianos are questionable but not this one. Goes to show that Steinway knew how to build them in the Golden Age.
The piano hasn't even been inspected yet, right? No one knows its actual condition. If they did then so many posters(almost everyone) wouldn't have so strongly recommended a tech inspection. Posters mentioned that the dealer wasn't offering a warranty being a red flag. We have no idea if this piano is "questionable" or not.
Holly said the dampers are the only weakness mentioned in the inspection report. Dogperson says the OP said the piano is outstanding. We both missed that.
I didn't miss anything and certainly not what you just mentioned in your post.

Just because the "inspection report" says the dampers need replacing doesn't mean that's the only problem. If that was the case, no further inspection would be necessary and the dealer would usually have offered at least a minimal warranty on everything except the dampers.

Terminal degree, who I consider to be one of the most knowledgeable experts on pianos on PW said, "You live in a part of the country where there is no such thing as an original condition, 110 year old that does not need repairs or have major. That the seller won’t warranty the piano (in particular, the pinblock) is a red flag for me already." IOW I think saying that "Holly said the dampers are the only weakness mentioned in the inspection report." misses the point by a lot.

We know the OP liked the piano a lot but based on several of her comments my guess is that she is not an experienced piano shopper. She seemed to think that the dealer gave it the "once over" was significant and didn't even mention the length of the piano. I'm not at all sure she would have chosen to get the piano inspected had she not started this thread. She is used to playing a 50 year old Wurlitzer spinet so almost any grand will sound great by comparison.

I've also explained many times that the Steinway name on the fallboard can seduce people and make them less objective about the piano's sound and touch. It's well known that even though some rebuilt Steinways have had the work done poorly they sell because of the name.

We know she likes the Steinway a lot more than the Yamahas she tried but we don't know anything about those pianos either. They could have been old Yamahas from the period when they were quite bright or the hammers could be hard due to their age or they could be used Yamahas that had poor care. The new Yamahas, even the lower end models, are not nearly as bright as the old Yamahas.

I was the only poster who suggested that the OP put a refundable deposit down on the piano and am glad she took that advice to hold the piano until it's inspected.

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"She is used to playing a 50 year old Wurlitzer spinet so almost any grand will sound great by comparison."

That's exactly what I was thinking.

One red flag for me is that the dampers need replacement. You know why a piano would need dampers replaced?

Because it hasn't been restrung in forever. If it was restrung and the dampers were not replaced (and the damper guide rail was not rebushed as well) than it wasn't done correctly. So, another red flag. If the parts a couple of decades old, the knuckles will be flat and grooved. You can feel and even hear that.

"I've also explained many times that the Steinway name on the fallboard can seduce people and make them less objective about the piano's sound and touch. It's well known that even though some rebuilt Steinways have had the work done poorly they sell because of the name."

Yes, I have many poorly rebuilt Steinway disasters among my customers. Very common. The last one, all the string coils were sitting right on the plate after a "restringing."

Here's the deal: If you want a Porsche and you see a used one for $12,000 at a dealer, trust me, you don't want that Porsche (I actually almost fell for an old 911 at a dealer a long time ago--even the dealer was honest and said "Son, this car isn't in great shape..."

When you fall for a Steinway, it's like buying a Porsche: A good one, new or used, will be expensive. Period. If you have a limited budget, you will, by definition, be buying a heap of expensive problems. When someone says "I like it because it has the original soundboard" it's like saying "I like that 1965 Porsche--it has the original brakes, belts, and hoses!" It doesn't compute.

For anyone that is starting to look at grands, I'd urge you to 1. look around for a while. Play dozens of pianos. Don't buy the first thing you see, especially if it's a prestigious brand. Your emotions will color your judgement. "It's a Steinway--it MUST be great, right?" 2. Find a good technician to help you.

You know who is able to compare piano sounds and playability? Not most teachers--they usually have one piano. I've found few teachers that really know what's going on under the hood. Tell them "the aftertouch on this piano is really uneven" and most will say "huh? After who now?"

Technicians are able to compare pianos. We go to one after the other, 3, 4 a day, sometimes more. Day in, day out. Concert venues, private homes, retirement centers, cruise ships, dealers, old pianos, new pianos. You tune the piano and play it for little while and come up with an idea of it compared to everything else. "I like this one, I hate this one, this one is dead in the 5th octave, this one has crazy false beats, this one feels sluggish, yadda yadda yadda."

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My interpretation of the OP's post is that the inspection is scheduled but that she probably noticed that the dampers are not up to par and the dealer likely said, "we can replace those."


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This has been a quite educational thread and I'm glad I started it.
For those who want more details to sift through...

This is my first "real" piano purchase. The Wurlitzer was my neighbor's that I picked up for $200 twenty years ago when my kids were taking lessons. I've never regretted it because none of them took to piano and it gave me an instrument in the house to play at Christmas and when they got older and out of my hair and I had time to take it up myself again.

After four years of steady work and practice I'm getting into Chopin and other pieces around an RCM level 6-8. I've proven to myself this is not a passing fancy and I really adore and need the two hours a day I spend on the piano. I want an upgrade.

I do not have the space for a standard grand and the "baby" grands would be pushing my space capacity as well and frankly don't sound as good to me as the bigger uprights.

I do not have the budget for a $20k dollar piano, but purchasing a piano that needs repairs spaced out over time is not a deal breaker.

The 1911 is an upright in a Mission style oak cabinet. It's 51" tall. I don't have a model number. It has new keys, at the least and we were told the last people who looked at it refused it because they thought the dampers would need replacing. The ones before that because it's just big and somewhat old-fashioned looking.

Yes, it sounds better than the Wurlitzer. So did the Kawai K500, K400, Yamahas out the wazoo, and half dozen other assorted brands in the same general price range as the Steinway in question. Several new Steinways (at around five times my budget) that I tried just for giggles and grins did not appeal to me nearly as much as the 1911 and I would never consider them even over the Yamahas I tried. (I've been looking around for a month or so).

I went into this weekend's shopping situation quite determined to get the K500 and figure out the money any way I had to. I had no intention whatsoever of looking for anything else, I just wanted to play everything they had in the showroom to set my mind at rest that I wasn't just buying the best piano on paper, but one I would love. There's the rub. I just did not love the sound on the Kawais. I didn't even like it.

The Yamahas were better, but then I did the Chopin baby beginner piece : the B minor Prelude on the 1911 and it was GLORIOUS. I spent the next 30 minutes playing everything I could do by memory on it. I played every single key on it. The upper and lower octaves are everything I could ever ask for. I want to talk to the tech about a slight hollowness to the middle range and see if it will hold up to nearly 20 hours a week of use. Thanks to you all I have a list of questions to start with. Please believe me I won't buy it if there is anything that needs work that would change the sound on her.

Do I know what I'm doing? Of course not. That is why I am here on this forum asking questions. Thank you to everyone who has taken the time to help me out.


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Steinway uprights are difficult to service, and after 100 years, they are more likely than not to need servicing. When the servicing is done, chances are that it will not sound the way that it does now. I suggest that you do some more shopping. Do not ignore pianos that are cheaper than Yamahas or Kawais.


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Originally Posted by HollyBytheLake
The 1911 is an upright in a Mission style oak cabinet. It's 51" tall. I don't have a model number. It has new keys, at the least and we were told the last people who looked at it refused it because they thought the dampers would need replacing. The ones before that because it's just big and somewhat old-fashioned looking.
So it has taken us five pages in this thread to discover that the Steinway in question is an upright and not a grand. smile I think everyone here has been under the assumption that it was a grand. Per BDB's post above, old Steinway uprights are challenging to tune and service. Per the OP, however, the sound of the instrument is glorious compared to other uprights she has tried. I'm certain it does sound good - but the question remains how well can it stand up to 20 hours of use per week? I'd be interested to hear what the tech has to say about the piano - and also to learn how much the dealer is asking for it. One thing may be certain, however....they don't built them like they used to.


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Could you post a picture of the piano? That might have clued people in that it was an upright, haha.

I like Mission style even though Stickley furniture looks a bit like prison furniture. Is the cabinet made of solid oak? It must weigh an absolute ton.

By the way, oak is terrible wood to use in furniture making. It is hard to cut, of course, and it produces huge jagged splinters that are dangerous. There was a guy in my wood shop who made a lectern out of oak and that was his experience.

Could someone share why it is harder to service than other uprights? Surely, it can’t be harder to service than a spinet.

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Thank you Holly for that background. Makes all the difference. Trust the tech report will be positive and justify the asking price. About 20% of the price of a new K52?


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Here is a fully restored Stainway at 40k. I guess the budget of Holly is about 5 to 10k. Not all the changes are necessary immediately, the cabinet may be in good condition on which cas no need to refinish it.

Buying a very old piano is indeed like buying a very old car in its more or less original state. You can plan on having to deal with a number of issues. Thats always a choice between convenience and the pleasure of owning a really unique and old object.

https://www.lindebladpiano.com/pianos/1912-steinway-k-155584


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some more thoughts on this.
Going back to the analogy of old cars, which as all analogies, has its limit. I don’t know anyone who owns a really old piano but I do know some friends and colleagues who have bought old cars. In fact nearby my house, literally half a mile away, there is a weekly display of amateurs coming to show their old cars and talk with others afficionados.

What I noticed about them is a couple of things. One is that they never use their old car for regular use nor to drive anywhere far from home. They use it essentially on week end and relatively medium short distances. So, they don’t use it for extensive driving.
One of my friends is not particularly interested in mechanics though he has excellent notions, but he can afford to pay an expert when some piece needs to be fixed or changed. Another one I talked with just loves fixing things himself. He has a garage and is pretty well equipped.

I think owning a 100 years piano is a bit like that. If the condition of the piano is average, the cost of fixing various issues could come up over years, worst case, to 2 or 3 times the initial price. You can see how much costs a fully restored upright. The sound that you like today may suddenly deteriorate, in which case you will feel obligated to fix the problem. Some problem may require serious internal work taking the piano away and possibly altering the sound to some extent (or hopefully not).

At the end, there isn’t a right or wrong choice. It is all a matter of perspective and also financial ability.

You have to know that it is going to be really difficult to resell such a piano, if you would need to do so, unlike a more recent modern one. So, you will get stuck with it.

I am not sure how extensive usage the piano can sustain in its current condition, unless it has been fully restored and checked out. And you would have to be careful about the conditions (humidity in particular) and the regular maintenance and inspection.

So, at the end it is a choice between the pleasure of owning such an instrument, with the inconvenience that comes with it: lower intensity usage, maintenance time and cost, difficulty to resell, …. And on the other hand, the convenience of more modern instruments to the expense of maybe the sound (at a given price point).

IMO Most people who buy such old instruments or very old cars are collectors who can also own another one or two modern ones for their daily usage and practice, and use the historical one for their pleasure, unless it has been fully restored and certified to be able to sustain normal practice (like an old car where all the parts and engine have been changed).

The main reason the dealer has probably not sold the piano is that there is little demand for that and the profile of buyers is very specific.


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Sidokar
I don’t agree with your assumptions. I own a 1907 M & H, snd don’t just use it for a spin around the block. It is my only piano snd is treated the same way as a bright snd shiny new piano. I’ve owned the piano approximately five years and it has needed no repairs. Will it? Most probably but I am prepared for that

I know if I ever needed to sell it, the price would be at least what I paid for it. There is a market for vintage pianos that are good condition.

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That's a great, well considered argument, Sidokar. Just one thing though, there's not much difference between Steinways made in 1907 and today. There is a huge difference in the materials and technologies Ford use in their vehicles today from those made in 1907.

Originally Posted by Sidokar
Maybe i am too conservative (j guess i must be), but it seems that a large part of all these new technological innovations are only marginal improvements and mainly participate to the marketing on going noise. Large companies need to renew their models by bringing new features supposedly revolutionnary all the time. Of course changing a piano is more complicated than changing an iphone. The term revolutionary is most likely by an large an over statement. But i am open to be change my mind.


Now i dont doubt that piano quality has improved over the years in the mechanics, reliability, volume, power area. For the sound itself i am rather skeptical. The best Yamaha are not better than other brands so far. After all for violins we still consider 300 years old instruments to sound better than new ones. Assuming thats true, obviously all the modern technology has not been able to produce something better.

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Originally Posted by dogperson
I own a 1907 M & H, snd don’t just use it for a spin around the block. It is my only piano snd is treated the same way as a bright snd shiny new piano.

It is the same with me. My Bluthner is now 144 years old. It doesn't get special treatment.

One way of looking at it is this. A very old piano has been around a long time. It is unlikely that anything is suddenly going to change. Yes, it will continue to gradually wear out, and the tone or the feel of the action may slowly degrade. But it is unlikely that you will suddenly be confronted with the need for urgent restoration. You can take your time, until you feel that it might be worth spending some money to improve your playing experience.

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Comparisons between old cars and old pianos aside...


Originally Posted by Sidokar
The main reason the dealer has probably not sold the piano is that there is little demand for that and the profile of buyers is very specific.

I think this is accurate, and I think there is a good possibility that if Holly bought this and then later wanted to sell it, it would be indeed be challenging.

I have the impression that there is more interest in older S&S grands than in older S&S uprights, so I do think it makes sense to enter into this purchase understanding that it won't have the same resale value as either a grand or as a new upright.

That still doesn't mean Holly shouldn't make the purchase, only that this is another data point to factor into her decision making.

Also, I think this could be used as a bargaining point in trying to talk the dealer down...


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I think old cars are far more annoying to maintain than old pianos I don’t know. I know that I’ll never buy another car with an internal combustion engine. My Tesla Model 3 is so simple, it’s basically maintenance free. Electric motors have few moving parts in comparison to a gas powered engine.

And, no, I don’t ever have to worry about replacing the battery. It’s not a monolithic battery anyway, it is thousands of small batteries. The battery will last 500,000 miles.

My car will do 0-60 in 3.7 seconds. If I part with $2k, I can lower that to 3.2s. My Model 3 is faster than just about any muscle car I wanted in high school. On top of all that, the car drives itself. I drove ten hours a few days ago and estimate that the car drove eighty percent of the time.

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Originally Posted by ShiroKuro
Comparisons between old cars and old pianos aside...


Originally Posted by Sidokar
The main reason the dealer has probably not sold the piano is that there is little demand for that and the profile of buyers is very specific.

I think this is accurate, and I think there is a good possibility that if Holly bought this and then later wanted to sell it, it would be indeed be challenging.

I have the impression that there is more interest in older S&S grands than in older S&S uprights, so I do think it makes sense to enter into this purchase understanding that it won't have the same resale value as either a grand or as a new upright.

That still doesn't mean Holly shouldn't make the purchase, only that this is another data point to factor into her decision making.

Also, I think this could be used as a bargaining point in trying to talk the dealer down...

Not much market for S&S vintage uprights?
I don't know for sure about that, but this 1894 rebuild sounds amazing on the video. I'm not the biggest Steinway fan, but I could be tempted to purchase this one sight unseen. Perhaps Holly just needs to make sure the piano is reliably reconditioned/rebuilt. If not, it may be difficult to resell later....or it may develop a myriad of problems. I agree, an independent RPT should be advised. Perhaps the dealer doesn't believe the piano is worthy of a rebuild. In this case, I would steer clear. On the other hand, if it is closer to what is seen in this video, it may be worth it.



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Originally Posted by I. Bruton
I don't know for sure about that, but this 1894 rebuild sounds amazing on the video.

wow

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Originally Posted by tend to rush
Originally Posted by I. Bruton
I don't know for sure about that, but this 1894 rebuild sounds amazing on the video.

wow

Wow is right!

That video was definitely worth 9 minutes of my time.

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