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Originally Posted by Carey
Originally Posted by Animisha
Originally Posted by Retsacnal
The piano has largely fallen out of fashion in the western society.
Thank goodness it's going gangbusters in the east. thumb

How can you know?
How can you know what? His first or second statement or both?

The second statement. There is lots of information about what is and what is not in fashion in the western society for people who speak English and who know how to google. But it is much harder to get information about what is going on in the east.


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Originally Posted by Retsacnal
Originally Posted by Carey
Originally Posted by Animisha
Originally Posted by Retsacnal
The piano has largely fallen out of fashion in the western society.
Thank goodness it's going gangbusters in the east. thumb

How can you know?
How can you know what? His first or second statement or both?

grin ha

I was wondering the same! thumb

Anyway, both are true and well-documented.

What Happened in 1980?

Now I didn't read all ten pages, but the graphs were only about the US. Not about the east.


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Originally Posted by Rich Galassini
Hi all,

Here is the bad news. Acoustic piano sales for the past decade (excluding the pandemic) have slid a bit. In 2019, there was a total of a little over 31,000 new acoustic pianos sold in the USA. That is compared to a little over 41,000 in 2011 (the beginning of the decade).

Here is the good news. The number of console or grand style digital pianos has continued to increase. In 2011 there were just over 120,000 digital pianos sold. In 2019, there were 174,000 digital pianos sold. That means that between 2011 and 2019 the industry went from 161,000 total units to 205,000 total units in 2019. Does this mean the acoustic piano is going away? No way.

The fact is that a digital piano, IMHO, is often an easier decision for families getting a first piano than an acoustic. It is a cleaner purchase in that it has little to no maintenance, fits places an acoustic will not, can be played with head phones, is easier to move etc. It is true that the performance of even the finest digital pianos, like the Clavinovas, do not equal the performance of a fine studio piano. But they are world's better than most of the mediocre to terrible spinets and compressed action consoles that so many families bought when I was a child.

In our industry a few of us give trade ups to digital piano buyers for a specific amount of time to encourage them to consider an acoustic piano. I just traded up a family from a 3k digital piano to a 10k professional studio this morning.

So, IMHO, the piano is not dead, but it does continue to evolve. Technology is not going anywhere.

Speaking to that, the percentage of acoustic pianos being sold with technology is increasing as a percentage yearly (Disklaviers, Silent pianos, Transacoustic, etc.) . Yamaha was once the only manufacturer in that space, but now there are more choices and within a few years I predict if a manufacturer does NOT offer those options, they will lose a significant number of their potential clients.

Also, great to see you here I. Bruton!

My 2 cents,

This really is good news!

Re. the "1980" thread, the question about digital piano sales was never really resolved. It's nice to know that they are strong, and increasing significantly enough for "pianos" in the aggregate to trend upwards.

Acoustics still seem to be trending downward (the last year in the "1980" chart was 2007, and total acoustics were just shy of 54 thousand. So, 41 and 31 thousand in 2011 and 2019 continues the downward trend, but when grouped with digitals the trend is up!


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i was testing high end digitals kawai nv-5s kawai nv-10s and not even them can match a medium upright piano and will never match a grand. but thats just my opinion.


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When evaluating pianos it is, I suggest, helpful if you have a wide experience of all sorts of pianos, particular when you are talking about the possible demise of the acoustic piano. As many of the forum posts demonstrate, playing just one piano, especially a digital, often makes it difficult to adjust when playing an acoustic, or even another digital. One becomes accustomed to the sound and touch of your own piano and that becomes the preferred norm. And I would also suggest, controversially perhaps, that constantly playing just a digital rather dulls the senses, Every acoustic is different, in touch and sound whereas basically all digitals of the same make and model sound and feel the same - or should do! If we were talking about biodiversity there would be little argument as to what situation was best.

Having said all that I would still advise anyone wanting to learn to play the piano to get a digital if that suits your budget and situation.


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I don't know if the piano is an outdated instrument, but apparently it is still coveted enough for someone to steal (with the aid of a shopping cart)

http://forum.pianoworld.com/ubbthre...arch/true/re-happy-story-of-the-day.html


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Originally Posted by Colin Miles
... One becomes accustomed to the sound and touch of your own piano and that becomes the preferred norm. And I would also suggest, controversially perhaps, that constantly playing just a digital rather dulls the senses, Every acoustic is different, in touch and sound whereas basically all digitals of the same make and model sound and feel the same - or should do!...

The tactile response from playing an acoustic, to me, is vitally important to my playing. No digital has completely replicated that response yet. (My opinion has not settled regarding the digital hybrid I recently purchased). However, if a player was never used to the feel of an acoustic, then they are not missing that response to begin with. Perception is reality.


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Originally Posted by I. Bruton
Originally Posted by Colin Miles
... One becomes accustomed to the sound and touch of your own piano and that becomes the preferred norm. And I would also suggest, controversially perhaps, that constantly playing just a digital rather dulls the senses, Every acoustic is different, in touch and sound whereas basically all digitals of the same make and model sound and feel the same - or should do!...

The tactile response from playing an acoustic, to me, is vitally important to my playing. No digital has completely replicated that response yet. (My opinion has not settled regarding the digital hybrid I recently purchased). However, if a player was never used to the feel of an acoustic, then they are not missing that response to begin with. Perception is reality.
Same for me regarding the tactile response. Whether we realize it or not I think how we play the piano is not only affected by the piano's action we control but also sensory input we receive from the tactile vibrations produced after a felt covered hammer strikes the metal strings. As far as I know no digital manufacturer has been able to replicate that convincingly. Throw on top of that the inability to reproduce all the different colors one can create on an acoustic piano along with the unrealistic and typically weak soundstage, most digital's leave me wanting much more.

I don't think the digital piano has made the acoustic piano obsolete but I wouldn't be surprised that it has been cannibalizing quite a bit of the acoustic piano's sales. However, I think the acoustic piano sales were going to suffer regardless of whether the digital piano existed or not. The acoustic piano might still be viewed as a luxury item but it has lost it's appeal as a status symbol which has largely been taken over by oversized SUV's and flatscreen TV's. The art of playing the piano thankfully has not been lost as a result as it appears more and more people still want to learn how to play the piano. For those with children, I think a lot of that has to do with well off families wanting to give their children the cognitive benefits children purportedly gets by learning an instrument, but they will do it with the cheapest instrument they can find and spend the rest on a luxury SUV. (Sad, but true but maybe not in China).

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Originally Posted by Senahoi
i was testing high end digitals kawai nv-5s kawai nv-10s and not even them can match a medium upright piano and will never match a grand. but thats just my opinion.

Just think, if you'd been alive in 1870 you'd have been writing to The Times to say 'These so-called grands are all very well but they'll never be a patch on a proper square piano'.


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A digital piano does not sound like a real piano. It sounds like a recording of a nice piano played back through speakers. I understand this to be true even of the elaborate 20k to 30k digital "grands" that have an actual soundboard with speakers embedded in it. And I'm not aware of any emerging technology that will allow digital pianos to sound like real pianos. So acoustic pianos are not becoming obsolete except insofar as people don't care about that distinction or prioritize the low cost and convenience of digital pianos.

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Originally Posted by Sonepica
A digital piano does not sound like a real piano. It sounds like a recording of a nice piano played back through speakers. I understand this to be true even of the elaborate 20k to 30k digital "grands" that have an actual soundboard with speakers embedded in it. And I'm not aware of any emerging technology that will allow digital pianos to sound like real pianos. So acoustic pianos are not becoming obsolete except insofar as people don't care about that distinction or prioritize the low cost and convenience of digital pianos.

Agreed. Digital piano and acoustical piano are two different instruments. Did electric guitar kill acoustic guitar market? Think not.

I think that good digital pianos might even help acoustical piano sales. More people can try out a decent digital keyboard with modest price, and get into this hobby, and then buy a piano.

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I don't think the piano is an outdated musical instrument. Of course, with the advancement in science and technology, there have come various versions of piano such as digital piano, acoustic piano, and now electric piano. But, at the end of the day, the usage of the piano is all about creating and letting out one musical creativity. Hence, pianos do have their traditional values remaining the same1

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Originally Posted by Jean Claude
Originally Posted by Senahoi
i was testing high end digitals kawai nv-5s kawai nv-10s and not even them can match a medium upright piano and will never match a grand. but thats just my opinion.

Just think, if you'd been alive in 1870 you'd have been writing to The Times to say 'These so-called grands are all very well but they'll never be a patch on a proper square piano'.

Square pianos were defunct in England well before 1870.

But even before then, grand pianos did not replace squares - they coexisted, even as far back as the 18th century. Back then square pianos were the domestic instrument for the middle class - grands were for the aristocracy and the concert room.

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I dont think so. Unlike most digital instrument which will get outdated fast when the newer version is released. Even an old piano can still preserve its value well (depending on the piano condition surely).

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Originally Posted by Majoo
I dont think so. Unlike most digital instrument which will get outdated fast when the newer version is released. Even an old piano can still preserve its value well (depending on the piano condition surely).
.

Unfortunately, actual data shows that acoustic pianos depreciate in value just like a new car does. There is a table at thd bottom of the linked page. A new grand depreciates 20-30% in the first five years

https://www.pianobuyer.com/article/buying-a-used-or-restored-piano-how-much-is-it-worth/


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Originally Posted by David-G
Originally Posted by Jean Claude
Originally Posted by Senahoi
i was testing high end digitals kawai nv-5s kawai nv-10s and not even them can match a medium upright piano and will never match a grand. but thats just my opinion.

Just think, if you'd been alive in 1870 you'd have been writing to The Times to say 'These so-called grands are all very well but they'll never be a patch on a proper square piano'.

Square pianos were defunct in England well before 1870.

But even before then, grand pianos did not replace squares - they coexisted, even as far back as the 18th century. Back then square pianos were the domestic instrument for the middle class - grands were for the aristocracy and the concert room.

So pick another date, it doesn't really matter. Here we go:

1905....."can't see these horseless carriages taking over from a proper pony and trap"

1948....."these dreadful 33s have no soul, won't ever replace proper 78s"

etc, etc.

If you feel like being picky over exact dates, go ahead.

Perhaps I should recast my original response so: 'Is the piano an outdated instrument?'....'Not quite yet'.


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By the way, you are quite right to point out that squares and grands coexisted for a period....how does that differ from the current position around grands and digitals?


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Originally Posted by Jean Claude
...

Perhaps I should recast my original response so: 'Is the piano an outdated instrument?'....'Not quite yet'.

that's the perfect response!


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Originally Posted by Jean Claude
Originally Posted by David-G
Originally Posted by Jean Claude
Originally Posted by Senahoi
i was testing high end digitals kawai nv-5s kawai nv-10s and not even them can match a medium upright piano and will never match a grand. but thats just my opinion.

Just think, if you'd been alive in 1870 you'd have been writing to The Times to say 'These so-called grands are all very well but they'll never be a patch on a proper square piano'.

Square pianos were defunct in England well before 1870.

But even before then, grand pianos did not replace squares - they coexisted, even as far back as the 18th century. Back then square pianos were the domestic instrument for the middle class - grands were for the aristocracy and the concert room.

So pick another date, it doesn't really matter. Here we go:

1905....."can't see these horseless carriages taking over from a proper pony and trap"

1948....."these dreadful 33s have no soul, won't ever replace proper 78s"

etc, etc.

If you feel like being picky over exact dates, go ahead.

Perhaps I should recast my original response so: 'Is the piano an outdated instrument?'....'Not quite yet'.
.

Picky to correct the provided date of 1870? IMO, no. There wouldn’t have been a date correction if you would not have included such an exact time period. I’m glad the correction was made.


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i don't think it's really...outdated so to speak. Instruments in general don't really move at the same rate other technologies do at least nowdays. The biggest move for them has been the move to digital/electronic versions of the original which of course allows for a lot of interesting things to do. I don't know if I would classify them as completely new instruments so much as an evolution of existing ones. The move to digital versions of instruments have been interesting and have allowed for really new ways of doing things. Even though a lot of focus tends to be on the replication of a "real" instrument there are things that can also only be done on a digital instrument as well or at least I believe that to be the case. In the case of the piano you can do some things with different voices; splitting the keyboard etc. Want to do a duet solo? Record one part play it back and then play over that part. It is pretty neat IMO. They may not replace the original instrument but it certainly enhances the music playing experience IMO.

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